Eric Musco please enlight me

[ThePedigree]

By the way...wasn't the monthly coin grant presented as a "loyalty grant"...I thought I read that somewhere.

 

At any rate, they probably HAD to provide a grant to remain competitive with other games that have gone F2P and also offer subs, as most offer a stipend as well.

 

Although this could be arguable, I think it isn't completely baseless to make the claim that before F2P launched the game was not worth the 15 dollar sub based on it's market performance, the current success of the new model as more evidence to this idea.

 

That would be correct. The devs have referred to it as a subscriber reward several times. It is part of the semantics involved with the subscriber coins, as I had previously mentioned. They've been called grants, stipends, rewards as well. All of which indicates that the coins aren't free, they are part of the perk/package of your subscription fee.

 

Examples of them using the term reward:

 

Rewards Program

 

We also felt it was very important to thank our subscribers for being members of The Old Republic community. To reward all of you, we will grant Complimentary Cartel Coins to every player who has been a subscriber prior to the launch of the Free-To-Play option. The actual size of the grant will depend on how many months you were a paying subscriber prior to our announcement and after our announcement. There will also be special grants to those who purchased the Star Wars: The Old Republic Collector’s Edition and Digital Deluxe Edition. Want to know how many Complimentary Cartel Coins you have earned? Click here to find out! We are literally granting millions of dollars worth of Complimentary Cartel Coins as part of this program. But you’ll only receive a grant of Complimentary Cartel Coins if you’re an active subscriber when the Free-to-Play option goes live!

 

As a subscriber, you can expect virtually no changes beyond the new stuff from the patches. You are getting addition of loyalty program where you get a monthly grant of cartel coins.

 

One thing we haven’t mentioned is the ongoing loyalty program for players who subscribes beyond the FTP launch. As part of your subscription, you will be receiving a monthly grant of cartel coins that you can go and purchase cool items from the store (this is in addition to the large amount of CC you will get when we launch the FTP option for active subscribers).

 

Thanks everyone for letting us know that you have not yet received your Complimentary Cartel Coins.

 

We are aware that some players did not receive their subscriber reward Cartel Coins as expected this month, we’ve escalated this to our development team who are currently investigating the issue and who will make corrections to all affected accounts.

 

They have also stated:

Damion: From a design perspective there is a balance you want to achieve. You want to be sure that the F2P options is compelling and attractive but at the same time it is really important to us that our subscribers feel like they are getting their money’s worth with their subscription fee. Finding that balance point is really really crucial. We will continue to massage that as we get feedbacks from the fans and look at our metrics.

 

 

Which is in direct opposition to the fact that subscribers feel that they are being nickle&dimed by being charged cartel coins for basic character customization features. (Read: I am referring to aspects of the appearance kiosk, not the Cathar unlock.)

[branmakmuffin]

Which is in direct opposition to the fact that subscribers feel that they are being nickle&dimed by being charged cartel coins for basic character customization features. (Read: I am referring to aspects of the appearance kiosk, not the Cathar unlock.)

Y'all need to learn to read like lawyers, because that's how BWEA writes.

[Levity]

Wow it's like I done gone run into redundancy heaven.

[LordArtemis]

Yes, but couldn't the coin grant be viewed as a "get-around" in the case of that perceived subscription value? That said, would allowing subscribers the opportunity to earn additional coins in game for crafting activities, or allow them to convert EC to CC at an exaggerated ratio with a cap per month relieve any of those perceived feelings of unfairness?

 

Just a thought...is there any way to provide some value to subscribers that would pacify most other than the current discounts offered.

[dsapp]

why should they when they give them to subscribers free via the coins we get. So no, own goal by you.

 

That's not "free" for a subscriber. It's still costing them Cartel Coins. Things they only get because they're paying a subscription. Methinks your definition of "free" and the actual definition of "free" are two different things. Even still, you didn't bother answering the question as opposed to deflecting. Why can't they give it to subscribers for in-game credits? Until you answer the question, you're just defending blatant greed.

[SithVeritas]

That's not "free" for a subscriber. It's still costing them Cartel Coins. Things they only get because they're paying a subscription. Methinks your definition of "free" and the actual definition of "free" are two different things. Even still, you didn't bother answering the question as opposed to deflecting. Why can't they give it to subscribers for in-game credits? Until you answer the question, you're just defending blatant greed.

 

A good amount of people truly believe it is free, I don't, but just telling you what you're getting yourself into. lol

[branmakmuffin]

That's not "free" for a subscriber. It's still costing them Cartel Coins. Things they only get because they're paying a subscription. Methinks your definition of "free" and the actual definition of "free" are two different things. Even still, you didn't bother answering the question as opposed to deflecting. Why can't they give it to subscribers for in-game credits?

The answer to that is "Because they choose not to."

 

A good amount of people truly believe it is free, I don't, but just telling you what you're getting yourself into. lol

And no one, not even they themselves, understands why it's so important to them that the CC stipend be regarded as "free."

Edited May 2, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Andryah]

Methinks your definition of "free" and the actual definition of "free" are two different things.

 

Now you are making kittens cry. Are we still arguing the definition of words here??

 

Why can't they give it to subscribers for in-game credits? Until you answer the question, you're just defending blatant greed.

 

1) They could, but they choose not to. Much of the CCM content is limited edition.

 

2) doing so devalues the CCM, which in turn devalues the free market trade in CCM items. The way they would mitigate this is to make the price in game for credits very high... and you will complain about being gouged.. only this time for in game credits instead of cartel coins. Evidence: CE Vendor received a scanner eyepiece in the last major patch. Price: 100K credits. Average selling price of random pack sourced CCM scanner eyepieces on the GTN over the last month on Harbinger: 60-70K credits (I've personally bought some for 40K credits)

 

Be careful what you wish for IMO. They appear to have a very good handle on in game economics in their MMO... probably courtsey of their extensive telemetry and analytics.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Andryah

[dsapp]

He'll be in for a pretty boring end game then D: , and good luck in getting good gear without doing any of those and good luck into getting the elite comms to buy said gear at the vendors.

 

Also, OPS and space want passes for f2p/pref

 

Funny how you're making the assumption that somebody is interested in any of those things. You know how many players don't really care about endgame and spend much of their time leveling alts? The amount of casual players far outweigh the amount of people that are gung ho about any of the things you've listed.

[SithVeritas]

Now you are making kittens cry.

 

I came rushing here when I heard there were kittens crying.

 

You have a sick sense of humor.

[Lostpenguins]

That's not "free" for a subscriber. It's still costing them Cartel Coins. Things they only get because they're paying a subscription. Methinks your definition of "free" and the actual definition of "free" are two different things. Even still, you didn't bother answering the question as opposed to deflecting. Why can't they give it to subscribers for in-game credits? Until you answer the question, you're just defending blatant greed.

1 - Go find where they call the coins complimentary (you can just look back in this thread... to help you I even posted it a few times).

2 - Go look up the word complimentary.

3 - Find the word "free" used in the definition.

4 - Find other wording for other ways they describe what your cartel coins are that are given every month for subbing.

5 - Find a definition that proves you're paying directly for those coins.

 

Lastly, they can give any and all of these features in game. The question is: What do they feel is the correct amount to give with a sliding scale of customer unhappiness versus financial profit. To put it best:

[dsapp]

The answer to that is "Because they choose not to."

 

Oh, that's pretty obvious. I've seen the greed of Bioware with this game. But my complementary month's subscription runs out in 15 days so I figured I'd get all of this out now.

Edited May 2, 2013 by dsapp

[dsapp]

1 - Go find where they call the coins complimentary (you can just look back in this thread... to help you I even posted it a few times).

2 - Go look up the word complimentary.

3 - Find the word "free" used in the definition.

4 - Find other wording for other ways they describe what your cartel coins are that are given every month for subbing.

5 - Find a definition that proves you're paying directly for those coins.

 

Lastly, they can give any and all of these features in game. The question is: What do they feel is the correct amount to give with a sliding scale of customer unhappiness versus financial profit. To put it best:

 

Do you receive these "complementary" coins without a subscription? No. Does every other F2P game known to man offer "complementary" cash shop currency with subscriptions? Yes. "Complementary" is just a term that they use to let you pretend you're getting something sweet. It's part of your subscription. If they stopped giving you those CC with your sub, I highly doubt that you'd still be arguing they were just complementary.

[Andryah]

I came rushing here when I heard there were kittens crying.

 

You have a sick sense of humor.

 

Wait.. are you suggesting that kittens enjoy listening_to/watching people debate the definitions of words?

 

Relax.... I can't use religious dieties as metaphors.... so I use my favorite pet instead.

[dsapp]

1) They could, but they choose not to. Much of the CCM content is limited edition.

 

2) doing so devalues the CCM, which in turn devalues the free market trade in CCM items. The way they would mitigate this is to make the price in game for credits very high... and you will complain about being gouged.. only this time for in game credits instead of cartel coins. Evidence: CE Vendor received a scanner eyepiece in the last major patch. Price: 100K credits. Average selling price of random pack sourced CCM scanner eyepieces on the GTN over the last month on Harbinger: 60-70K credits (I've personally bought some for 40K credits)

 

Be careful what you wish for IMO. They appear to have a very good handle on in game economics in their MMO... probably courtsey of their extensive telemetry and analytics.

 

What was the price of Molecular Stabilizers before they started handing them out in Cartel Packs? No, the CM has already done a great job of ruining the in-game economy. The same thing goes for the lack of new armor models for Armormech and Synthweaving with the best looking armor models on the CM. I could go on for a long time about how the CM has ruined the viability of many crew skills for making credits.

 

Cash sinks are important for MMOs. It's why Blizzard came out with expensive mounts, the Black Market AH, etc. But, seriously, how is offering appearance changes, at a kiosk, to subscribers for credits akin to anything being bought and sold on the GTN or CM? I highly doubt that you're going to be able to buy these things off of the GTN as opposed to needing to go to the kiosk and pay directly there for any changes you're making.

[branmakmuffin]

1 - Go find where they call the coins complimentary (you can just look back in this thread... to help you I even posted it a few times).

Let's try this again. It does not matter what word they use. They could call them "Major Awards" in homage to A Christmas Story. As others have pointed out 47,852 times to you and others already, they use that word as a marketing gimmick to make you think you're getting something for nothing. But there's no false advertising or fraud or bait-and-switch because we know exactly how much we have to pay, we know exactly what we're going to get for our money and we get exactly that.

 

So you can keep doting on their use of the word "complimentary" like a supplicant on the high priest's words of wisdom if you want, but you'll walk away with something of even less value than that supplicant: you'll walk away with nothing but frustration.

Edited May 2, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Andryah]

Do you receive these "complementary" coins without a subscription? No. Does every other F2P game known to man offer "complementary" cash shop currency with subscriptions? Yes. "Complementary" is just a term that they use to let you pretend you're getting something sweet.

 

So.. how much extra did those coins cost you again? Or are you purchasing the sub to get those coins? Most people purchase a subscription for the access it give them. The free coins are just that... free.

 

If they stopped giving you those CC with your sub, I highly doubt that you'd still be arguing they were just complementary.

 

LOL... did you really just say this??? This sounds like it comes right out of an episode of Wyatt Derp. NATURALLY... if they stopped giving them to you... THEY WOULD NO LONGER BE COMPLIMENTARY. They would not exist in your account.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Andryah

[Lostpenguins]

Do you receive these "complementary" coins without a subscription? No. Does every other F2P game known to man offer "complementary" cash shop currency with subscriptions? Yes. "Complementary" is just a term that they use to let you pretend you're getting something sweet. It's part of your subscription. If they stopped giving you those CC with your sub, I highly doubt that you'd still be arguing they were just complementary.

Once again... stop trying to spin a definition. I asked you to go find a cite that definitely shows that words such as "stipend" or "grant" or "complimentary" are terms that mean the coins are a direct point of sale transaction when you are subbing. Or show me that "complimentary" is defined as a made-up word to "let you pretend you're getting something sweet." Once again, I'll take the real definition found on credible sites versus you're "oh, i'm so mad and hurt at you BW" definition. As I've said before (in a different way), you don't get to tell me a dog isn't a dog just because you don't like that dog.

 

I'd be annoyed that they took something they were giving me away, but that's not why I sub. I sub to play this game, not get some coins. If it was the reason I subbed then why did I sub way before F2P was announced? I also wouldn't expect them to lower my sub fee since that's not what I'm paying for.

[TUXs]

So.. how much extra did those coins cost you again? Or are you purchasing the sub to get those coins? Most people purchase a subscription for the access it give them. The free coins are just that... free.

 

LOL... did you really just say this??? This sounds like it comes right out of an episode of Wyatt Derp. NATURALLY... if they stopped giving them to you... THEY WOULD NO LONGER BE COMPLIMENTARY. They would not exist in your account.

 

They're not "free". They are simply given to increase the value of the sub, value which was greatly diminished when the game went F2P and the cash shop was added.

Edited May 2, 2013 by TUXs

[branmakmuffin]

Once again... stop trying to spin a definition. I asked you to go find a cite that definitely shows that words such as "stipend" or "grant" or "complimentary" are terms that mean the coins are a direct point of sale transaction when you are subbing. Or show me that "complimentary" is defined as a made-up word to "let you pretend you're getting something sweet." Once again, I'll take the real definition found on credible sites versus you're "oh, i'm so mad and hurt at you BW" definition. As I've said before (in a different way), you don't get to tell me a dog isn't a dog just because you don't like that dog.

How about you find a definition of "complimentary" or "free" which includes the notion of "It was free, but I paid money for it."

 

They're not "free". They are simply given to increase the value of the sub, value which was greatly diminished when the game went F2P and the cash shop was added.

I detect yet again the distinct tinkling sound of logic (yours) falling on deaf ears (theirs).

Edited May 2, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Lostpenguins]

Let's try this again. It does not matter what word they use. They could call them "Major Awards" in homage to A Christmas Story. As others have pointed out 47,852 times to you and others already, they use that word as a marketing gimmick to make you think you're getting something for nothing. But there's no false advertising or fraud or bait-and-switch because we know exactly how much we have to pay, we know exactly what we're going to get for our money and we get exactly that.

 

So you can keep doting on their use of the word "complimentary" like a supplicant on the high priest's words of wisdom if you want, but you'll walk away with something of even less value than that supplicant: you'll walk away with nothing but frustration.

Actually, it does matter when it comes to advertisement and business practices. Did you ever hear of that product called Airborne that said it helped ward off bacteria and germs and helped prevent flu? Do you know what happens when they were proven wrong? They got sued and had to settle and had to remove that wording in association with their product.

 

So, yes, I think it matters A LOT what a company says and if it's legally able to.

 

You are spinning the word to call it a marketing gimmick. That's your personal opinion. You bring no actual proof. Just your point of view. As I have done so many times, I bring actual citations and references to stake my claim. You just keep going, "No, I don't feel it's that way."

 

And once again, you can feel "feeling" that a dog isn't a dog... it doesn't make you any more wrong because it's a dog.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[Lostpenguins]

How about you find a definition of "complimentary" or "free" which includes the notion of "It was free, but I paid money for it."

 

I detect yet again the distinct tinkling sound of logic (yours) falling on deaf ears (theirs).

1 - No such definition exists

2 - You're the one trying to prove complimentary =/= free. The proof of burden is on your shoulders not mine because I'm claiming it does mean free and I gave citations that it was. You have failed to do the reverse.

[branmakmuffin]

Actually, it does matter when it comes to advertisement and business practices

Your ceaseless repetition of the same old illogic merits some random smileys.

 

 

1 - No such definition exists

We have a winner!

 

No one's trying to prove "complimentary" != "free." You're trying to prove "paid for with money" = "free."

Edited May 2, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Lostpenguins]

Your ceaseless repetition of the same old illogic merits some random smileys.

 

 

 

We have a winner!

 

No one's trying to prove "complimentary" != "free." You're trying to prove "paid for with money" = "free."

Okay, if you're not trying to prove that complimentary =/=, then do you agree to disagree that complimentary = free? If you agree that complimentary = free, then BW says the coins are free. Do you agree or disagree with that? If you disagree that the coins aren't free, are you implying BW is lying and/or falsely advertising?

[curtkram]

Okay, if you're not trying to prove that complimentary =/=, then do you agree to disagree that complimentary = free? If you agree that complimentary = free, then BW says the coins are free. Do you agree or disagree with that? If you disagree that the coins aren't free, are you implying BW is lying and/or falsely advertising?

 

i think you've actually touched on this subject already.