Eric Musco please enlight me

[Andryah]

As I said earlier, if you want to suggest that they make some of the things in 2.1 available to subs via in-game credits, that's quite okay. It's quite okay to tell them you're unhappy and you'd like some in-game options.

 

The thing is... for the most part... Bioware crafted a model where their microtransaction market can flourish while at the same time giving players the ability to trade/sell market content to other players... in effect allowing players in game to aquire market content without spending coins.

 

It's a brilliant design IMO as it gives a wide player base access to the content, even players that are psychologically or on principle averse to microtransactions.

 

Personally, I rarely buy anything directly form the Cartel Market, yet I have about a dozen storage tabs across several alts that are filled with content that originated on the Cartel Market. I am happy to purchase items from other players, and other players appear to be happy to sell said items in the open market. And the Cartel Market flourishes as well. Everyone wins IMO. The only time I spend coins on my account is to get an unlock I cannot purchase in game and/or an unlock that is just stupid high price in credits in game to purchase directly from the game.

[Tachenko_Yuri]

are you guys wearing diapers just so you don't need to keep away from the screen just to argue some more?

[Anzel]

Just out of curiosity... why do you seem to be on the side of "everything is fine the way it is" and "BW/EA shouldn't give customers anything more than they have to?"

 

I'm reading your responses and am baffled quite frankly.

 

My main gripe is that sub's JUST paid for the RotHC, and now we will be asked to purchase a race expansion. The argument that "might be able to pay for Cathar with a full month stipend if you have a security key" (which means you also might not, or that they are pricing the Cathar at 600cc), means we won't be able to use that stipend for the other things they're releasing, like CC dyes, or new packs, etc. It seems like BW/EA is de-incentivising sub's and are hoping more people cancel sub and go Preferred. That may make sense from a profit standpoint, but not a customer loyalty standpoint. I'm sure there are tons of people who are out-spending sub's as Preferred's, but if they would just do things like up the CC grant, discount CC items for Subs, give sub's access to new major content as it's released (i.e. races), they could get the pref's to sub AND still buy CC's. Having more subs means more evangelism for the game, which means more f2p signups, more preferred purchasers, and, since subs will be incentivised, more subs.

 

It seems as though they are taking the f2p model and using it to extract as much money as possible from the existing base, instead of expanding the base.

 

This this this x one billion. It's like they want us to cancel. Like they are begging us to cancel by putting absolutely everything on the Cartel Market or on their STUPID Cartel packs.

 

What really sucks is that most subscribers don't mind subscribing and don't mind paying a little bit extra for "extra" stuff. However they are pretending that everything is extra. It's so transparent yet there are people in this thread that clearly don't see that. It amazes me. Changing your hair from long to short shouldn't be considered extra. Changing the color of your armor isn't extra.

 

Those are features that should be added to PAYING subscribers. Preferred players should get a discount. F2P folks should pay full price. However, they are pretty much asking us all to cancel our accounts and pay more money as "Preferred" players.

 

The joke will be on them though. When you push hardcore subscribers to the point of canceling they NEVER come back. Like never never never come back.

 

SOURCE: John Smedley, NGE, SWG

[Lostpenguins]

I'm shocked...

 

While trying to explain to me how everyone PAYS for Operations, you've actually done a fantastic job of shattering your own argument that the coins are "FREE". In order to get "FREE COINS", players MUST PAY SOMETHING! Therefore, those coins have a COST. Right?

Hey, I'm totally okay if you want to say that nothing in this game is free because there's a cost to everything. Are you okay to say that? My point is, by that logic, nothing is free. If nothing is free, then stop complaining that you have to pay for anything in this game because you have to pay for everything in this game.

[curtkram]

Yes, you can. The only thing you need to incur is time, not money. If you have no coins saved.. then you may have to wait until your monthly sub repops and you get another 500 coins. Heck, depending on your sub date and the date 2.1 pops, you might not even have to wait if they coincide. Most players probably have some coins in savings... or will save until the patch goes live and likely have at least 1000 coins (based on when the patch probably goes live)

 

And speaking of incuring time... every subscriber can save and collect coins.. basically for as long as they subscribe and the game is live. You have the option, like with so many things in life, to trade money for time and purchase coins.. but that is not forced on you.. that is a decision made by you to trade money for time.

 

i get the priority thing and mostly agree, but to get my next gift of complimentary coins that are free (don't want to enrage penguin) next month (to get from 500 to 1,000) i still have to pay $15 real life money. so to say 'only time' misses that i have to also pay real life money to keep the subscription from lapsing.

 

i think the core of the concern for those of us that are concerned is not how we define "free" or "complimentary." i think we're concerned about what we can expect for the cost of our subscription moving forward. adding a race that costs cartel coins (which i equate with real life money even if others don't) goes against what i was lead to believe would be provided without additional cost (by cost, i include both rl money and cartel coins, regardless of whether they're free or not). also, flashpoints on makeb were not provided without cost to people who hold a subscription. i think it's understandable that content would cost additional money on occasion, in the form of an expansion. the thing is, with this new expansion being released through the cartel market and not available to subscribers, there is concern that this is now what SWTOR is and the stuff about things being released to subscribers is in the past. they can say they will release a new op for free someday, but if they can just rewrite the website to say they changed the terms whenever they're ready to release a new update, it's questionable as to whether they will want to follow through.

 

in my opinion the jump from original subscription to f2p is also not relevant to this topic. they changed the deal on us. we agreed to stay on under the new terms or we didn't. that is now in the past. if your suggesting that changing the deal on us is normal and we should expect that to happen with every new content release, then that directly addresses the concern of expectations.

[Andryah]

No Andryah. You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

While the actual "dollar" amount didn't change, the value of it did. Prior to F2P, no $15, no access to the game. After F2P, free game, free all the way to level cap. The coins were added to give "value" to the subscription.

 

VALUE and monetary economics are two different things.

 

VALUE for players in an MMO is subjective and based on personal need, tastes, preferences.... precisely because it is an experience based form of entertainment product. There is noting tangible. VALUE has no economic basis to what I presented earlier.. and I have made a point of saying so in my new signature.

 

The economics of the monthly subscription is objective and tangible and has remained the same since launch. So to insist that something given to you on top of actual access to the game costs the player incremental $$ is completely incorrect.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Andryah

[LordArtemis]

It's a brilliant design IMO as it gives a wide player base access to the content, even players that are psychologically or on principle averse to microtransactions.

 

I like the wisdom of this statement and completely agree with it.

 

Look at that. Something we completely agree on.

[Lostpenguins]

The thing is... for the most part... Bioware crafted a model where their microtransaction market can flourish while at the same time giving players the ability to trade/sell market content to other players... in effect allowing players in game to aquire market content without spending coins.

 

It's a brilliant design IMO as it gives a wide player base access to the content, even players that are psychologically or on principle averse to microtransactions.

 

Personally, I rarely buy anything directly form the Cartel Market, yet I have about a dozen storage tabs across several alts that are filled with content that originated on the Cartel Market. I am happy to purchase items from other players, and other players appear to be happy to sell said items in the open market. And the Cartel Market flourishes as well. Everyone wins IMO. The only time I spend coins on my account is to get an unlock I cannot purchase in game and/or an unlock that is just stupid high price in credits in game to purchase directly from the game.

I'm the same way. I'm not saying they're right in demanding things be in-game credits for everything that costs CC coins. I'm just saying they can ask for it so long as they don't come off like they have a legal right to getting those features because BW is lying to them otherwise.

[Tachenko_Yuri]

I think some people bought their subscriptions just so they can sit and bash each other on those forums all day

[Quraswren]

[/color]

 

Except in the beginning they were not labeled as complementary. They were labeled as an ongoing grant to compensate players who were paying $15. They only added complementary later as a marketing ploy.

 

Excellent point.

 

For me knowing BW is charging subscribers cartel coins for customization is just one more small push to that imaginary line I have for myself of when I'll leave the game.

 

A small push here and a small push there but with each and every sloppy addition to nickel and dime subscribers - Who are already paying month after month and providing stable income to the game - will eventually be met with an unsubscribe. It may not be today, tomorrow or 2 months from now but like many gamers, I think there will eventually be another game we're interested in and it's subscriber perks will be better and we'll all be so close to the point of being "feed-up" with SWTOR and how the cartel market over shadows the game even for subscribers that well just up and leave.

 

I can see charging everyone for a new race, I can see charging F2P and preferred for customizations but those that are paying monthly will also be changed to change your hair color? That just doesn't sit well with me.

[Andryah]

i get the priority thing and mostly agree, but to get my next gift of complimentary coins that are free (don't want to enrage penguin) next month (to get from 500 to 1,000) i still have to pay $15 real life money. so to say 'only time' misses that i have to also pay real life money to keep the subscription from lapsing.

 

I understand, but weren't you going to subscribe anyway? Or are you saying that you only subscribe to get those coins? I believe that you would be subscribing anyway because you enjoy the game and see sufficient personal value to pay the coming subscription. Right? If so.. once again.... the only thing you incur if you have not coins saved might be some time to wait for your sub to pop.

[LordArtemis]

By the way...wasn't the monthly coin grant presented as a "loyalty grant"...I thought I read that somewhere.

 

At any rate, they probably HAD to provide a grant to remain competitive with other games that have gone F2P and also offer subs, as most offer a stipend as well.

 

Although this could be arguable, I think it isn't completely baseless to make the claim that before F2P launched the game was not worth the 15 dollar sub based on it's market performance, the current success of the new model as more evidence to this idea.

[Lostpenguins]

Excellent point.

 

For me knowing BW is charging subscribers cartel coins for customization is just one more small push to that imaginary line I have for myself of when I'll leave the game.

 

A small push here and a small push there but with each and every sloppy addition to nickel and dime subscribers - Who are already paying month after month and providing stable income to the game - will eventually be met with an unsubscribe. It may not be today, tomorrow or 2 months from now but like many gamers, I think there will eventually be another game we're interested in and it's subscriber perks will be better and we'll all be so close to the point of being "feed-up" with SWTOR and how the cartel market over shadows the game even for subscribers that well just up and leave.

 

I can see charging everyone for a new race, I can see charging F2P and preferred for customizations but those that are paying monthly will also be changed to change your hair color? That just doesn't sit well with me.

And I can totally get behind this. You're not happy that the customizations requires CC's. Totally okay with that statement. I would also prefer some sort of in-game currency to make those changes as well. But I only want to make 2 changes to my main (body type and hair style) and I have plenty of coins saved up.

[curtkram]

I understand, but weren't you going to subscribe anyway? Or are you saying that you only subscribe to get those coins? I believe that you would be subscribing anyway because you enjoy the game and see sufficient personal value to pay the coming subscription. Right? If so.. once again.... the only thing you incur if you have not coins saved might be some time to wait for your sub to pop.

 

great question. and the answer is a definitive "maybe." my expectation of what i get for a subscription has a lot to do with whether or not i want to keep it up, and that's why i think this could have been a good discussion. the coins really have nothing to do with whether i subscribe; the reason i subscribe is for the content and access to the content. i liked it better when it was subscription only, but we know how that went.

 

if new content requires those coins to gain access to it, that's one more thing i have to worry about and honestly i don't want to have to prioritize how to spend in game currency. i doubt there is any scenario where i would go free to play, because to me having to buy an unlock to access content is ridiculous (though i'm glad there is an option for others). if i lose access because the designers want to focus on content only available for cartel coins or real life money, that's going to weigh heavily on my decision to maintain a subscription.

 

hasn't it been quite a while since new content was added for a subscriber to access without paying real life money or cartel coins for it? i don't whether that speaks to the game designers priorities or their plans for the future or whatever. just saying, my expectations for the future of what a subscription gains access to is changing for the worse.

[Shikyo]

So there is a whole lot to read through here in this thread and I'll admit that aside from the first few pages and the dev response I haven't read it all lol, BUT here are my 2 cents as a relatively happy subscriber from Day 1:

 

As a Subscriber you do have expectations for what you get with your dollar. After all you pay monthly and in most of my MMO experience this money pays for the small content patches you get in between expansions that are additional and must be payed for outside of your sub along with other features such as character transfers.

 

Now for the most part, our F2P transition as been smooth as a subscriber. We are getting a small cartel bonus every month, and the in between content patches have included things such as a new warzone, in game events, Flash Points, and Operations. As a subscriber, all of these things have remained free to us outside our subscription as expected and I for one have been thankful for them. My ONLY gripe up until now has been that the only really good looking gears, in my opinion, have been in the cartel market for purchase and the crappy sets we can get outside the market. The ONLY thing making any gear outside the market worth getting is for the BiS mods that come along with them.

 

Now lets look at the past few months that started with a in game event up until now:

2.0: 100% no NEW content that is free. Everything that was released in this update can only be accessed by purchasing the expansion. They even removed access from TFB operation and moved it to lvl 55 meaning you have now pay additionally for that by purcasing the expansion. For me, this is not a big deal. I will continue to pay for expansions for this game and the content along with it as I do enjoy the game. So for me, this was expected.

 

Now we have 2.1 coming out with a lot of stuff we've been asking for but alas, this smaller content patch, which historically have included free items to subscribers and must be purchased by F2P players (such as Section X), now only includes (at least all I've heard about) items that must be payed for outside of your subscription. Now I will not forget to mention that subscribers do get a discount on the items coming out.

 

So now we have two back to back content updates, one being a expansion (understandably must be purchased) and the other being a regular content patch that must be purchased by a subscriber. So for the past few months, we have gotten nothing new for our subscription and as least for me, that is where the frustration lies.

 

Now to add to that frustration, 2.1 does seem to be taking things a bit too far for not only not having any new content for subscribers at no cost, but even some of the stuff that they want to charge subscribers for:

 

Cathar - This one, completely makes sense to me and has been communicated from the beginning that it wouldn't be free to subscribers. Heck, they even priced it at a one month cartel grant for us. Good Job BioWare, I'm cool with this. It makes sense.

 

Change your Body Type - This isn't simply cosmetic but is essentially editing your character that in any other game, would require you to completely remake your character. QOL and completely understandable that it would cost some cartel coin to all.

 

Change your Species - Same as above, this is editing your character completely that would normally require you to remake yoru character. So pay some coin to not have to re-lvl, or re-lvl for free. Makes sense to cost some coin.

 

Change your hair/scars/facial hair - Understand to charge F2P for this but to charge subscribers any amount of cartel coin for something that in a RP enviornment a mere barbor or Dr. would take care of in the galaxy far far away?? What?? Why am I as a subscriber having to pay extra for something like this??

 

Armor Dye - Understand charging F2P some coin for this, but to charge your already paying customers for something so simple and so trivial like this as a QOL Cosmetic improvment? What??

 

And so far, this is all I'm hearing about in 2.1 other then bug fixes. No content for a subscriber to nom on for a few months. And keep in mind, it will be a month to two months from 2.1 until we get our next patch. So several months of additional paid content for a already paying Customer. While I can save my cartel coins, and do for the most part, I've kept my armor frustrations at bay as I can get most of the best looking gear which is on the market for that.

 

Any way, I know I have quite the post here but this is my 2 cents on what is exactly frustrating to me, as a subscriber that enjoys this game and pays for that enjoyment on a monthly basis. BioWare, you want to charge us all for 2.1 too and not give us something to nom on, then I sure hope you have something down the pipe for us like you did all of last year (including AFTER F2P launched).

[Andryah]

hasn't it been quite a while since new content was added for a subscriber to access without paying real life money or cartel coins for it? i don't whether that speaks to the game designers priorities or their plans for the future or whatever. just saying, my expectations for the future of what a subscription gains access to is changing for the worse.

 

Not in my opinion. That said... I know some people have always wanted more content released more often.... but they probably demand this from any MMO they play. This particular MMO though is using a round robin approach to content... meaning: they commit a major patch to a core content (such as PvP, or a new OP, or other new content or redesign of existing content). So different people, if they have narrow content tastes may find this MMO slow to update their desired slice of the pie. 2.0 has to be looked at separately because it redesigned a bunch of things and set the foundation for the expac.

 

Personally I consume casually and across the range of content. Sometimes PvE, sometimes PvP, sometimes soloing, sometimes doing guild group stuff. I have plenty of alts to keep things from getting boring. The only thing I don't do is random PUGs... gave those up several years ago when they grew hair and warts.

 

Anyway.... if you decide to take a break and drop your sub... then the free coins you get with the sub becomes moot I think.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Andryah

[Solguden]

Not in my opinion. )

 

Andryah could you please elaborate more on the free content you feel has been given over the last several months?

 

I know we all have our opinon and are entitled to them but I am truly curious as to what content you base your opinion off of? Just going back over the last couple of months.

[Lostpenguins]

great question. and the answer is a definitive "maybe." my expectation of what i get for a subscription has a lot to do with whether or not i want to keep it up, and that's why i think this could have been a good discussion. the coins really have nothing to do with whether i subscribe; the reason i subscribe is for the content and access to the content. i liked it better when it was subscription only, but we know how that went.

 

if new content requires those coins to gain access to it, that's one more thing i have to worry about and honestly i don't want to have to prioritize how to spend in game currency. i doubt there is any scenario where i would go free to play, because to me having to buy an unlock to access content is ridiculous (though i'm glad there is an option for others). if i lose access because the designers want to focus on content only available for cartel coins or real life money, that's going to weigh heavily on my decision to maintain a subscription.

 

hasn't it been quite a while since new content was added for a subscriber to access without paying real life money or cartel coins for it? i don't whether that speaks to the game designers priorities or their plans for the future or whatever. just saying, my expectations for the future of what a subscription gains access to is changing for the worse.

I can agree with all of these fears and thoughts. I'd prefer going back to sub-only, but that won't happen, unfortunately. We're stuck here at F2P. As for "real content that didn't take real money"... I don't know. That'll probably be in 2.2 as I don't think they're going to be releasing a new operation in 2.1 If that's the case... I can feel another dry spell like their was in EC HM before TFB came out where you're farming for weeks on end gearing up alts.

[curtkram]

Not in my opinion. That said... I know some people have always wanted more content released more often....

 

i think you're missing the point. of course i want more of everything now, but i'm rational enough to know that's not a reasonable expectation. the point is, they seem to have stopped releasing content for subscribers. or at least slowed it down significantly. they've already said they moved to an 8 week release schedule from 6 or so. that's about $30 of subscription before we get whatever comes next. the concern with this recent release is that it suggests they might not provide content for subscribers that time either.

 

the 'logic' here is that this patch, following the expansion, excludes subscriber content. if i were to guess at what their priorities are right now, i would say providing content to subscribers isn't that high. that could carry over into the next patch, and 8 weeks from now we may find out they're releasing a new pet that is only available through cartel coins, or they could release a fp only offered through the cartel market or cartel reputation, and say they'll change the website to reflect that the way their changing the website to reflect access to multiple races.

[Andryah]

Andryah could you please elaborate more on the free content you feel has been given over the last several months?

 

I know we all have our opinon and are entitled to them but I am truly curious as to what content you base your opinion off of? Just going back over the last couple of months.

 

Return of the Gree (remember that?)

Double XP Weekends (put a real charge into players IMO, ahead of the expac)

2.0 patch introduced a lot of changes and updates to 1-50 content...my personal favorite being the new planetary comms design, new class talents, and new PvP mechanics (warts and all, which will get smoothed out).

 

As for all the new cartel content over the last several months... guess what.. that was all free for me as I did not spend a single cartel coin to get any of it. I bought it from other players in the player economy using my in game credits. So for me it was all ACTUALLY free.

 

There are others... but my point being that I do not limit my perception of new content as just new OPs or new WZs.

[Andryah]

the 'logic' here is that this patch, following the expansion, excludes subscriber content.

 

None of us actually knows this to be true. They have only teased us with some of the long asked for features and content via internet marketing. We have yet to see the patch notes (or see it on PTS if they even PTS it).

 

It's premature to state that 2.1 is absent in game content (separate from shop content). I know for a fact that half the dyes coming are NOT CCM... per dulfy.net.

 

Honestly.. we need to wait to see what is actually in 2.1 before condemning it as absent subscriber content.

[Andryah]

8 weeks from now we may find out they're releasing a new pet that is only available through cartel coins, or they could release a fp only offered through the cartel market or cartel reputation, and say they'll change the website to reflect that the way their changing the website to reflect access to multiple races.

 

In fairness... Eric specifically stated this would NOT be the case in his post earlier in this thread.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Andryah

[branmakmuffin]

Going to have to quote myself here, because the both of you are still refusing to read

 

Originally Posted by F2P Dev Blog

Starting this Fall, there will be two ways to enjoy the game. First, you can continue as a subscriber, which gives you unlimited access to all game features and future Game Updates at no additional charge

Well, having basic character customization features costing CC isn't exactly free is it? No. Oh, but before you go and drag out the dead horse of "you get the free coins each month" lets take a look at what else it says. Unlimited. Forcing people to wait to build up enough coins to unlock Cathar, or customize this character, and then the next, as you have suggested "over time if you had the patience" is by definition limiting isn't it?

An argument can be made that the CC stipend gives subs access to all game features and another argument (your argument) can be made that "access to all features" should not be gated behind the CM. I agree with you philosophically, but as a practical matter, what is your recourse?

[Toxxo]

It would be fantastic if people could actually BUY Cartel Coins instead of being prevented from doing so for 1 MONTH because the system locks them out....

[PariahMessiah]

In fairness... Eric specifically stated this would NOT be the case in his post earlier in this thread.

 

And yet this change is proving we can't trust their word so why should we believe him now? "We did go back on our word, but that was the only time, brah, promise."