Do you prefer to read a guide before heading into something new?

[Kadin]

Normally I like figuring stuff out as I go but with this game it seems appropriate to look at any videos or guides especially involving group content. Just did one of the GSI Heroic 4 quests earlier and did some reading beforehand. I was kinda bummed that I wasn't going to be surprised and enjoy discovering mechanics, secrets, etc.

 

But I guess that's just to be expected these days. Reading up on the next Heroic on dulfy and questioned if this is really the best thing to do. I'm guessing my group players would say, "YES!"

 

Clearly with Operations, I've always looked up info before I went in for the first time... but is it expected for pretty much everything these days?

[Hizoka]

Normally I like figuring stuff out as I go but with this game it seems appropriate to look at any videos or guides especially involving group content. Just did one of the GSI Heroic 4 quests earlier and did some reading beforehand. I was kinda bummed that I wasn't going to be surprised and enjoy discovering mechanics, secrets, etc.

 

But I guess that's just to be expected these days. Reading up on the next Heroic on dulfy and questioned if this is really the best thing to do. I'm guessing my group players would say, "YES!"

 

Clearly with Operations, I've always looked up info before I went in for the first time... but is it expected for pretty much everything these days?

i used to raid in MMOs before Youtube exsisted... that is how the skilled older players raid everything. That is why the older players who grew up gaming back when dialup was the only way to use the interent are better at mechanics then most players now.

[Kadin]

i used to raid in MMOs before Youtube exsisted... that is how the skilled older players raid everything. That is why the older players who grew up gaming back when dialup was the only way to use the interent are better at mechanics then most players now.

And that just further illustrates my confusion on the subject. Obviously whenever a new Operations is introduced or anything for the matter, someone has to go in blind and figure it out. Once their work has then been written down, captured and put on YT or put on a page like dulfy's, it's almost expected for people to do the research. Shouldn't everyone get a chance to go in blind and discover what to do (and not do) or is that just asking for too many problems?

[Hizoka]

And that just further illustrates my confusion on the subject. Obviously whenever a new Operations is introduced or anything for the matter, someone has to go in blind and figure it out. Once their work has then been written down, captured and put on YT or put on a page like dulfy's, it's almost expected for people to do the research. Shouldn't everyone get a chance to go in blind and discover what to do (and not do) or is that just asking for too many problems?

 

The sad thing is so many people do not have simple reasoning skills they cannot "trouble shoot" a new encounter. They cannot see a mechanic and devise a way to beat it. Its a product of the crappy school system which simply teaches answers rather teaching how to find answers.

[Kadin]

The sad thing is so many people do not have simple reasoning skills they cannot "trouble shoot" a new encounter. They cannot see a mechanic and devise a way to beat it. Its a product of the crappy school system which simply teaches answers rather teaching how to find answers.

Yeah I'd have to completely agree on that point. It's very easy today to find the answer to almost any question and look in advance on what needs to be done which I think encourages this behavior more and more. Add in the fact that if you go into something blind and wipe, you're gonna get ridiculed quite a bit. I think at the very least, if people are open and up front about their lack of knowledge on something, it would go a long ways...

 

The whole point of asking is that by reading about this next Heroic 4 I have to do and reading all the steps, I feel like I'm cheating myself and the devs who devised these mechanics/puzzles. But that's just my own internal conflict I need to resolve...

[CosmicKat]

Makes you wonder if they read about the twists in movies before actually watching them too doesn't it?

[Pingonaut]

It's unfortunate how these "gamers" if you can call them that, read guides about everything before even trying the, and expect everyone else to do the same. The same people that complain about no new content, not interesting content.

I may be part of that generation but I certainly don't do that. Reading walkthroughs before playing a game or part of the game is lazy and ruins the fun.

 

It's one thing reading about something after a few tries (which some people don't even do, kudos to them) but reading about a boss before the fight because you heard it was hard makes the game's surprises and fun new mechanics expected and boring.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Pingonaut

[Kadin]

My honest opinion of this type of scenario is that I'd like to always go in blind, try and try until I get frustrated beyond belief and before logging out due to numerous failures, THEN I'll go do some research if I have to. But the peer pressure about making sure people "know the fights" really pushes me away from sticking to that process.

 

I want to enjoy the game and be surprised... but then I also want to be welcomed into future groups, etc. It's a hard line to walk at times...

[Ninute]

Used to enjoy going in blind and learning new mechanics.

 

Now, I just ask my self the question "Do I feel ok flossing out cash for all the repair bills for wiping numerous times?" and find my self always answering, "nah rather go in knowing what I'm doing, get the raid done and just get the gear instead of making this run cost me too much."

 

With all different types of people, you will always have those that are slow at learning new mechanics and/or slow to react and adapt quick enough.

 

Before, I had no issues with wiping a few times to learn, here, wiping costs and the ****** feeling of paying that bill seems to trump any other emotion I seem to feel after figuring out and beating the content.

[TexasMarine]

To start, I am currently playing on a 19 inch screen so having game and web up is out of the question.

 

For me, it depends on what I'm doing:

 

If its a normal FP, no...I'll go in blind. I just do the polite thing and inform the group that it my first run. In fact, I did that today when I ran Boarding party for the first time (main and other alts all Rep) no one had issues and gave enough info at boss fights to get through w/o wiping.

 

Now for the HMs I may read before. I actually do that a bit now since 2.0 if I have my phone next to me.

 

If my progression raid team is on a new OP or going to HM-NIM I'll read up so as to not cause the team to wipe since I took over as main tank.

 

I like not knowing what coming and having to analyze a situation then act accordingly. Other than the fact it makes thing more exciting...its good for your cognitive processes.

[Machine-Elf]

There should be guilds whose mission statements include that its members are NOT required to know each of the flashpoints/operations' mechanisms beforehand, and can learn them by themselves. Edited April 27, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[NrDLeipe]

Our guild doesnt use guides, if we do a new operation we just go see what happens and from there we figure stuff out on its own.

 

I dont see the enjoyment in looking up videos to get certain things cleared in a flash.

Loot ye nice but it will come anyway just takes a bit longer, the satisfaction of downing a boss the way we do it is more satisfying cause we actually learned it and not copyed from guides etc

[Hikaru_Kuma]

If it's single player quest or just some heroic quest, I won't read the guide before playing. But if it's an ops or hm flashpoint, yes I will. I don't want to waste other ppl's time or hold back the whole group just because of me, and I expect the others to do the same.

[KyaniteD]

To answer your question: I would prefer not to read about an encounter in advance. It takes away too much from the experience. It reduces the experience to simple work > reward, completely leaving out any creative thinking.

 

Creative thinking is increasingly less popular. Probably because increasingly fewer people are capable of it and therefore don't "get anything from it". If the solution doesn't present itself immediately it's considered not worth the time/effort.

 

The game is (has been reduced to) a reward hunt. People want rewards for everything they do, and they want them fast and in big numbers. Rewards like the satisfaction of beating an encounter through wit and well-coordinated group effort are of little value to many.

 

I'm under the impression that those who demand you read about it in advance are also those who consider communication a necessary evil that should be reduced to a bare minimum. Fun people. I stick to my guild for group content whenever possible, even heroics. With them I can also crack a joke without getting a "less talk more spacebar / pew-pew".

 

 

ETA: Personally, I also said goodbye to the thinking that I have to do and try everything. That thinking creates the haste, hurry and impatience that leads to players being urged to spacebar, read up in advanced, follow a red line through the map instead of wandering off here and there to explore (i.e. secret cave in TFB). I'm time-pressured enough at work, I don't need that to continue in my leisure activities.

[PanikSpreder]

Flashpoints - no, I never do any research. Most boss mechanics can be summorized in a short sentence and its a great way to find a new guild. I have no problem explaining a new player the mechanics - since well, we're all been there. Some of the best guilds I've been in over the years of my MMO "career" have been found doing dungeons/flashpoints. That little extra some people do to help others is a good indicator if its a guild I want to join.

 

Raids/operations is another thing though. Mechanics tends to be a litle more complicated and have more phases, so I do my homework there. Watch alot of videos and read all the stuff I can find.

[Aries_cz]

It should be mandatory if you go into Operation, as wiping an Operation because someone ***** up is not good, as it wastes people time and resources a lot.

For flashpoints it should not be, as those are usually pretty easy to figure out, or wiping in them is not as easy. However, if a group wipes several times, it might be a good idea to check a guide to see how should you avoid another wipe.

For anything else you should not need a guide, as the game tells you where to go, what to kill, etc.

[ScarletBlaze]

My guild doesn't require anyone to read any guide before a fp or anything else. Frankly we believe we don't feel that it is right for us to tell someone else they have to read a guide before they do something. We enjoy learning things on our own it makes it more fun for us that way.

 

We want to have fun and we will even rp through fp and various other things we do.

[CelCawdro]

If I'm heading in with friends, no.

If I'm heading in with randoms, yes.

 

It's a courtesy. I'm not there to waste some stranger's time to teach me the mechanics.

[Elear]

To answer your question: I would prefer not to read about an encounter in advance. It takes away too much from the experience. It reduces the experience to simple work > reward, completely leaving out any creative thinking.

Exactly. This is why I consider creating guides to all new content on day one, as doing disservice to the game. Delay guides by month from content release, and behold, people actually can think again, can't be expected to know all fights on their first day.

Sigh... But we all know that won't happen, There will always be someone saying "if you don't want to use it just do that" and thus reducing value of new content for everyone.

[CelCawdro]

Exactly. This is why I consider creating guides to all new content on day one, as doing disservice to the game. Delay guides by month from content release, and behold, people actually can think again, can't be expected to know all fights on their first day.

Sigh... But we all know that won't happen, There will always be someone saying "if you don't want to use it just do that" and thus reducing value of new content for everyone.

 

I'm all for fumbling through encounters with friends. But why subject strangers to that, particularly ones who have already experienced the content and are just trying to complete their dailies (which are another topic altogether as to whether or not they're a positive thing, but suffice it to say, they make quick and easy runs preferable)?

 

Odds are, they either end up carrying you through the encounter or going out of their way to teach you, so why go in blind and inconvenience someone you don't know that doesn't have the same motivations as you?

Edited April 27, 2013 by CelCawdro

[Elear]

I'm all for fumbling through encounters with friends. But why subject strangers to that, particularly ones who have already experienced the content and are just trying to complete their dailies (which are another topic altogether as to whether or not they're a positive thing, but suffice it to say, they make quick and easy runs preferable)?

 

Odds are, they either end up carrying you through the encounter or going out of their way to teach you, so why go in blind and inconvenience someone you don't know that doesn't have the same motivations as you?

 

I'm not talking about not using guides at all, ever. You mention people that already experienced the content, that means content has been here for a while. Then 3 out of 4 people in group almost certainly know eveything there is to know about it, and fourth person might want to read up. But with new content, it's extremely bad.

 

First week of new patch, new operation, and everyoen already is expected to know all fights, because someone compiled whole guide from PTS. Most of those people never been here, they never even got a chance at figuring out mow things work, because they were forced by everyone's expectations and fact that guides exist, to read them. Even if all 8 people would just rather try things on their own, they can't. It's too late for that, they came prepeared for players knowhing the fights, and thus became one of them. Losing oportunity to learn them on their own forever.

 

And just because people were here before, know fights, doesn't mean they can't let others have fun figuring things on their own, only giving hints when rest of group needs them. You may call it wasting your own time, I call it courtesy of allowing others to also experience part of learning new content.

[CelCawdro]

I'm not talking about not using guides at all, ever. You mention people that already experienced the content, that means content has been here for a while. Then 3 out of 4 people in group almost certainly know eveything there is to know about it, and fourth person might want to read up. But with new content, it's extremely bad.

 

First week of new patch, new operation, and everyoen already is expected to know all fights, because someone compiled whole guide from PTS. Most of those people never been here, they never even got a chance at figuring out mow things work, because they were forced by everyone's expectations and fact that guides exist, to read them. Even if all 8 people would just rather try things on their own, they can't. It's too late for that, they came prepeared for players knowhing the fights, and thus became one of them. Losing oportunity to learn them on their own forever.

 

And just because people were here before, know fights, doesn't mean they can't let others have fun figuring things on their own, only giving hints when rest of group needs them. You may call it wasting your own time, I call it courtesy of allowing others to also experience part of learning new content.

 

You are asking for something that no longer exists. Pining for a bygone era for this genre. MMOs are now designed around instant gratification, not the pursuit of a goal (whether or not that goal is ever attained). Dungeons are inconveniences, not experiences. This is by design.

 

This is unfortunate, but this is by design.

 

So again, feel free to fumble through with friends. I do. But the expectation is that players know the content long before it reaches live servers so that their daily runs and the like are successful in a short amount of time as possible. To force ignorance, to force the trials of the past, onto players is misguided.

[Elear]

You are asking for something that no longer exists. Pining for a bygone era for this genre. MMOs are now designed around instant gratification, not the pursuit of a goal (whether or not that goal is ever attained). Dungeons are inconveniences, not experiences. This is by design.

 

This is unfortunate, but this is by design.

I'm sorry, because it's discussion for different thread, but I have to strongly disagree.

Only people that decide design are at Bioware, and all evidence suggests their point of view is differnt from yours.

They create mechanics that have to be figured out. They add buffs with decriptions giving hints to what to do, insted of placing plaque with boss tactic in front of it or just plainly saying what does what.

Heck, even while gathering feedback on pts they were asking if mechanics were easy/hard to figure out, not if guide was easy/hard to find. All Macrobinoculars stuff loses TONS of value if you do it by guide.

 

Guides are never part of design. They are community creations. And if they are released to soo, those creations hurt game instead of helping it.

[CelCawdro]

I'm sorry, because it's discussion for different thread, but I have to strongly disagree.

Only people that decide design are at Bioware, and all evidence suggests their point of view is differnt from yours.

They create mechanics that have to be figured out. They add buffs with decriptions giving hints to what to do, insted of placing plaque with boss tactic in front of it or just plainly saying what does what.

Heck, even while gathering feedback on pts they were asking if mechanics were easy/hard to figure out, not if guide was easy/hard to find. All Macrobinoculars stuff loses TONS of value if you do it by guide.

 

Guides are never part of design. They are community creations. And if they are released to soo, those creations hurt game instead of helping it.

 

We're talking about repetitive group content here. Solo quests are an entirely different beast.

[Aries_cz]

First week of new patch, new operation, and everyoen already is expected to know all fights, because someone compiled whole guide from PTS. Most of those people never been here, they never even got a chance at figuring out mow things work, because they were forced by everyone's expectations and fact that guides exist, to read them. Even if all 8 people would just rather try things on their own, they can't. It's too late for that, they came prepeared for players knowhing the fights, and thus became one of them. Losing oportunity to learn them on their own forever.

 

And just because people were here before, know fights, doesn't mean they can't let others have fun figuring things on their own, only giving hints when rest of group needs them. You may call it wasting your own time, I call it courtesy of allowing others to also experience part of learning new content.

 

If all 8 people in group want to try to figure out the tactics the hard way, by wiping over and over, nobody is stopping them. If only one of the 8 wants to do it, then that just sucks for him. Others in group value their time and credits. So if the player does not follow what they tell him to do (tactics are explained to everyone in chat), then they are within their right to kick him out.

During fights, there is simply no time to type complex pointers what to do, people have to be told before the battle begins.

Guides are not required, but they are welcomed addition if you seek to avoid mistakes of others. That is the way normal people usually work in all areas of human activities. For example, cooking some meal you never cooked before. Sure, you can try wasting your time and resources to figure out who it is done, or you can ask someone who cooked it before for some pointers.