PVE gear >>>> PVP gear in PVP: SCRAP BOLSTER!!!

[MidichIorian]

The baseline is too high. The outcome is that you basically have to be in full Partisan/Conq at lvl 55 for PVP gear to be worth it, the gap between PvP and PvE isnt wide enough.

 

Without having crunched the numbers I'd say that a baseline on 1400 expertise, and not a point higher, would be good enough. That would open up a gap on +600 expertise to full PvP sets. Right now you might aswell stay in PvE gear until you have +1900 on your own gear because you will have +1700 anyway and the rest of the gap can eaten up by superior stats on the PvE end-game gear. It seems like the system is aimed at people who have no gear at all, PvP or PvE. They forgot about all the people inbetween, people who benefit too much. And honestly, for how long is someone completely new to 55? It will take people a day to get some items, PvP or PvE, and all of a sudden benefit too much from bolster.

Edited April 20, 2013 by MidichIorian

[MotorCityMan]

Could wait a couple of weeks while they tweak it and see how it works. Edited April 20, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[Karkais]

Could wait a couple of weeks while they tweak it and see how it works.

 

Certainly this. Theres been enough whining that I start to suspect the credibility of the information. I would rather Bioware give it some time and collect data before jumping into conclusions and making an even bigger mess by quick changes.

 

So far my experience from pvp has been positive and I see no clear evidence that someone in worse gear would be stronger than me.

[MidichIorian]

Could wait a couple of weeks while they tweak it and see how it works.

Only genre where people are ok with a company failing at in-house testing, ignoring feedback on open tests and then spending months on pacthes while once again ignoring feedback. Some guy even insinuated that it was a good thing that they spent time on several patches. How is that a good thing? For every new fix they have to roll out they're just establishing that previous work has been a failure.

[DeadDogBarking]

No it's really not like communism at all. Communism would be more like earning comms for a central authority who then distributes them as it deems appropriate.

 

This is more like the government offering subsidies to small businesses.

 

And we are off. Feels like home again.

 

So I made 55, and played my first couple of matches swapping old WH relics with exp out plus playing with other items of varying levels and and no real logic in the 0-3% (estimated) differences. So I spent some comms on an offhand weapon, still no real difference. loosing 1-2% in damage to gain 1-2% in expertise (not perfect math) is not making it worth the difference in doing hard mode missions. I will say my WH without the bonus is now ranking higher than with expertise (again rough est).

 

Not being a long time die hard MMO but a huge SW fan, I love the fact that you are forced to play the real game (sorry why else live in the SW universe - joke folks) to get ahead, but I am still aware enough to notice this is very different than the norm (or was it even intended ). SO I will not go off on a tangent. The changes in equipment are now basically cosmetic, even though I applaud the logic behind the direction.

 

I was just as stunned on release day with the spammable 8000k attacks and that has changed and folks are now wearing clothes again, so hopefully this is a work in progress (yes they have said so).

 

I do understand the need for different ability stacks in PvP versus PvE, but why not just use different mods. Are the two worlds so different that they do not want their equipment to have the ability to breed across play style. I understand the logic behind not wanting top tier people from one style to think they are competive the other way, but when u hit 55 in either style u can que for that level for heroics, WZ or OPS so it is too late.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Thread leader - I appreciate the support you are giving to all submitters. Nice touch

[LanceCorporalDan]

Lets just do the thing I have been saying since the beginning and pull expertise completely..

 

Then what is the point of pvp gear?

That would had the pvp community and incentives in my opinion.

[Rickadin]

OK! final solution! how about removing expertise completly!

 

Afterall expertise (or resilience from WoW TBC) originally came after the Dev teams responded to the whines of the casual and even the hardcore pvpers by literally separating the gears in 2 different branches because the pvpers were being outmached completly by hardcore PVE guilds that had the best gear in game even if their pvp skills were so bad*. Since then, WoW clones (let's not deny it) like SWtOR cloned the pvp setup.

 

Remove expertise from character's panel and then use the wz/Rwz comms to purchase mods and enhancements that are the equivalent to PVE. THAT WAY you can gear up by playing pvp with and against pure pvper or pure pvers. At that point it doesn't matter anymore, only a player's true Skillz will make the differance not the gear, not anymore. And of course pure pvpers won't have to run fps and ops to get geared.**

 

The only difference would be the armoring bonuses where:

 

PvP armorings benefit greatly pvp skills (maybe add a 2min CC breaker??? for full set so the Stunt Wars whiners **** for good or is this idea is way to smart for BW to consider it?); and where

PvE armorings bonuses benefits pve purposes which will pretty much remain the same.

 

In the end all I foresee is

 

PvPers saying farewell to a broken bolster system,

Mixed PvPers/PvErs having 2 ways to gear up,

PvErs... well nothing changes for them and that's fine.

 

 

Lets just do the thing I have been saying since the beginning and pull expertise completely..

 

This is purely written wisdom^^^^^ ...to bad too few could read it

 

Nota:

* At that time - 2004-2006 (and even in the 90's with EQ) - farming end game gear was tiresome and you need excellent coordination within the raid to get the loot from the bosses. Today the game GIVEz you the loot by simply accepting and turning a quest... how complicated:rolleyes: Okay.. maybe you have to kill a mob fine go kill it. Can't solo it? well then YOU SIR are bad. If it's a group quest well... group up. C'mon don't be anti-social its an MMO after all!

If you still don't agree with me that faming gear in SWtOR is easy as crap then you probably fall in one of these categories:

A) a pre-teenager that knew nothing of when mmorpgs were Great, hard but great. If its the case that's fine.. just too bad you missed it

B) a Lazy lousy and whiny gamer that has made the gaming community what is it theses days which is very sad (u dnt believe me? Go look at an exclusive upcoming game video/game review/ game patch/ game wtv and look at the comments down below. Yes most people that likes the new stuff rarely drops a positive comment but the industry and outside world look upon feedback which is probably 10%positive players, 90% negative and greedy players )

C ) A pay2win player and you ARE exactly the customer EA and other publishers are looking for... it's not bad for the Gamer Community because you just have to go ahead and pay tons of stuff or even pre-order for no valuable reson with real $. Got hacked? No worries you can pay a new lvl55 toon with arkanian even if everyone tells you not to do it because it would result into another hacking. You can sell your wedding ring if you run short on $, your house as long as you get that exclusive CM item you dreamed of. HELL if it wasn't for people like YOU we would have Pazaak in this game for a LONNNNNNNG time already! (apparently BW did not implement Pazaak because of the in-game currency -and now the real world currency market- that could go against many States laws cited in the gambling and/or video games. I say if someone ruins him/her/itself on game that's his/her/its own darn problem... and BW did not consider a full fun2play pazaak mini-game... apparently (anyways some big TOR fans made a multiplayer pazaak online game so it doesn't matter anymore!))

 

** Originally I would've wanted to post: "Let's remove expertise and pvp vendors because farming gear rating162 is so easy and the difference in between 162 and 168 isn't that big. Unlike wow vanilla, late game gear is easy to grab so you don't need a pvp/pve difference anymore. Just grab your end gear then go que up for a wz or go and form an ops and take on a boss. Eventually the uselessness of Supplies Quarter and Combat Quarter (which is half the fleet station) should result in the destruction of the Republic fleet station and, in retaliation, the destruction of the Imperial station on their fleet at the hands of the Pubs in Game 3.0. That way no more ******** with lag fleet and every guild will purchase a capital ship with all the former fleet extras. The guildless players shall return to their capital planet and try to make a living in there by buying a house or losing themselves in the streets but ultimately they have to join a Guild and hook up with the guild capital Ship" Okay I'm way off topic...

 

*** Because I do not represent any "AAA companies" I can throw away the hypocrisy and politness, I do not keep myself from expressing what has to be said and anyways from a lot of the readings I have seen on these posts, flames are everywhere let's deal with it. My raw manner might hurt someone's feeling but I'm not the kind of person to hide things in the closet.

 

PvPers if you want a Fixed PvP in 2.0 then thumbs up the postings on this thread that needs to be seen by BW, otherwise it'll be fixed when BW feels like fixing it.

 

If you disagree with my PoV that's your right but I won't even consider replying to someone's who's only bringing a negative attitude with zer0 constuctives that could make this MMO work.

 

 

English is my 3rd spoken and written language I apologize for the syntaxes errors.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Rickadin

[Ottoattack]

The other night I was PvPing with my sin. mixture of lvl 66/63/61 PvE gear, mostly not augmented. I was running 1947 expertise, 26K health, 1.5K damage. Compared to most people in the WZ in a mix of PvP gear, I was running slightly higher expertise and damage. I was running with 100 more damage and same amount of HP before bolster.

 

The question is I maxed out on PvP comms, and I am not sure what should I use them for, if I am already on same level of partisan, if not better. Not to mention if I upgrade my PvE gear I will probably get more stats. Even at full conqueror level, UW main weapon (or at least hilt/barrel) will be BiS, and this was know way back form PTS.

 

Is this working as intended? You need to be top PvE raider to be top in PvP? How does this support competitive PvP environment or even fair environment? While I do agree that the entry barrier at level 50 in 1.7 with so high, discouraging people who did not max out on comms before the hitting 50, from trying to compete in end game PvP. All what was needed in terms of upgrade, is to provide PvE gear with some base expertise to compete in 55 WZs.

 

Why do we have PvP gear running lower stats than entry level PvE gear then getting bolstered? Why did BW choose such complicated, not tested enough, completely unfair to PvPers outside the WZs and giving advantage to top PvEers solution? I will never know.. If one thing I learned from the couple of years I have been in the work force is you do not want to "create the wheel." And the wheel was already there before the expansion. What BW did in the expansion is re-create the wheel as a rectangular wheel. And yes, it is not working.

[Tattum]

Simply remove bolster from 55 WZs.. problem solved..

 

fresh 55s don't have to get steam rolled as long as they are not lazy and farm wz/rwz comms before 55 (with both capped, you can get almost full set of partisan gear right away)

 

and even if they were about to be steam rolled.... so what ? everyone had to start somehow.. i remember when I hitted 50 and just started to pvp when the game came out ... people with expertise torn me to shreds... did I care ? no.. just farmed gear and then the tides turned...

 

 

atm i`m running full 69 modded PVE gear with all 66 (or is it 68 ? - blue ones) augments and I still tend to pick that gear for pvp more than my half partisan/half conqueror also fully augmented gear.... reason why - I STILL GET BETTER STATS from it....

Edited May 3, 2013 by Tattum

[Slashdpc]

I hope this "issue" gets fixed soon. I agree, remove Bolster from max level PvP all together.

[sauerkraut]

Bolster isn't the problem. It is that they added expertise into the bolster at sub-55. Honestly it isn't needed in sub-55, it worked just fine before 2.0 without expertise, especially since they removed it from the PvP gear.

 

At 55, bolster should be removed, and instead recruit gear needs to be added back in to start 55 PvP, which is equal to the lowest tier of 55 PvP gear, just blue, and non-augmentable.

 

Dude just no, if you need a bolsterr just get out!

[Astarica]

Unless you've a large supply of rating 152 gear, wearing PvE gear over even Partisan is a good way to gimp yourself. The difference between rating 152 and Partisan is too close to tell, though it's still inferior to Conqueror.

 

But I guess I shouldn't stop people from wearing their PvE gear because they're relatively easy kills compared to the guy wearing PvP gear. Be thankful that Bolster means your wrong gear choice doesn't make you a free kill.

[SomeJagoff]

and even if they were about to be steam rolled.... so what ? everyone had to start somehow.. i remember when I hitted 50 and just started to pvp when the game came out ... people with expertise torn me to shreds... did I care ? no.. just farmed gear and then the tides turned...

 

See, that's the sad part, you and I and everyone who's played this game since launch remembers their first 50 pvp match and getting roflstomped by geared players. Hell, even the free recruit gear wasn't available when I first got to 50, I had to pay like 300k+ credits for utterly crappy gear just not to be completely roflstomped.

 

Then the next gen of swtor 50s comes in and suddenly they're are too good to even use the FREE recruit gear? Unbelievable.

 

The sense of entitlement of newer players who refused to take an intial butt kicking or two while they gear up is amazing. ALL of the valor 100 PVPers got their butts kicked initially wearing crappy recruit gear, why should this be any different for new 55s?

 

And now, they don't even need to use recruit gear, they can keep using their cartel gear with pve mods thanks to failbolster.

 

That's really the secret agenda behind bolster, isn't it? Let players buy ugly repainted gear off the cartel market, then boost their stats when they pvp in it, so they can keep buying pve gear off the market and not have to worry about pvp gearing or wearing "free recruit gear." If that's the case, then make the MK-3 recruit gear moddable, so people can put their pvp mods into their cartel gear. Mod removal costs too high? No problem! Just remove mod removal costs completely to appease people who want to move mods around their cartel pieces.

 

So yeah, scrap bolster, get back to basics.

[TonyDragonflame]

Bolster is fine as is, cuz now game about skill, not about gear.

 

Adapt and learn to play.

[Astarica]

Gear still matters, but it's not like pre 2.0 where your EWH randomly smites an unworthy opponent in Recruit for looking at you the wrong way. Now even a poorly geared opponent still dishes out credible damage to you.

[SomeJagoff]

PvPers saying farewell to a broken bolster system,

Mixed PvPers/PvErs having 2 ways to gear up,

PvErs... well nothing changes for them and that's fine.

 

problem is if PVP and PVE both dropped underworld gear, Raiders would whine.

 

Best solution is to go back to the 1.7 formula:

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

Remove Bolster from 55 bracket, leave joke pvp to the lowbies.

 

PVE Gear:

Rating 168 gear, Underworld, from hm ops

Rating 162 gear, Arkanian, from sm ops

 

PVP Gear:

Rating 168 gear from PVP, for Ranked pvp comms, stats lower than Underworld, with expertise to supplement.

Rating 162 gear from PVP, for Regular pvp comms, stats lower than Arkanian, with expertise to supplement

 

FREE (including for F2P) ITEMIZED MIN-MAXED Moddable Recruit gear for lvl 55s, rating 156, stats lower than basic/crafted gear, with expertise to supplement.

 

All 3 tiers, exact same amount of expertise, just differences in primary/secondary/tertiary stats

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

That will do EXACTLY what Bolster tried, but failed to do. It will make PVPers happy (they'll have a reason to pvp) and it will keep PVEers mostly happy (they'll be angry they can't walk into a warzone and dominate like they can now, but they'll be happy that pvp gear isn't as good as their gear for ops).

 

Seriously, there was NOTHING wrong with the old system, I don't get why Bioware went out of their way to try to "fix" something that wasn't broken.

 

Lastly, making the new free set of gear automatically min-maxed will give the newer players who don't know how to gear a good idea of how they should upgrade as they get more comms saved up. This set, would of course, still be the lowest of 3 tiers, so there would still be an incentive to upgrade to better gear, but with all the mod/enhancement vendors now, people could upgrade as they see fit and simply improve the stats they already have, instead of, say, going from a bunch of power/surge to a bunch of crit/alacrity.

[NrDLeipe]

im in for this 55 wz shouldnt have bolster at all.

 

What i do like to see to balance things out is some sort gear calculation,

for example gearscore 1000 to 1200 fight each other, 1300-1500 fight each other etc.

This to keep the gear cap small and pre mades can still do normals cause they will be classed in the same gear lvl as the opponent.

 

And make ratings more usefull atm i dont see the point for the higher skilled player to do those cause the reward is nothing almost.

[TonyDragonflame]

problem is if PVP and PVE both dropped underworld gear, Raiders would whine.

 

Best solution is to go back to the 1.7 formula:

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

Remove Bolster from 55 bracket, leave joke pvp to the lowbies.

 

PVE Gear:

Rating 168 gear, Underworld, from hm ops

Rating 162 gear, Arkanian, from sm ops

 

PVP Gear:

Rating 168 gear from PVP, for Ranked pvp comms, stats lower than Underworld, with expertise to supplement.

Rating 162 gear from PVP, for Regular pvp comms, stats lower than Arkanian, with expertise to supplement

 

FREE (including for F2P) ITEMIZED MIN-MAXED Moddable Recruit gear for lvl 55s, rating 156, stats lower than basic/crafted gear, with expertise to supplement.

 

All 3 tiers, exact same amount of expertise, just differences in primary/secondary/tertiary stats

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

.

 

^ No.

Week since this system top hardcore pvp guilds will be premades in full min/max augmented 168 pvp gear, when all casuals will be still in stock non min/max (= awful stats and effectiveness) free 156 gear.

 

It will be same as ewh vs recruits - who geared first and fast, roflstomped all who geared later

[SomeJagoff]

^ No.

Week since this system top hardcore pvp guilds will be premades in full min/max augmented 168 pvp gear, when all casuals will be still in stock non min/max (= awful stats and effectiveness) free 156 gear.

 

It will be same as ewh vs recruits - who geared first and fast, roflstomped all who geared later

 

First, I don't think you read what I said. The new FREE gear would be min-maxed itemized, i.e., not crappy stats like the old recruit sets.

 

Second, you're confusing 2 different issues, bolster vs no bolster and premades vs pugs.

 

You're right, the hardcore pvp guilds probably will be geared up fast, but so will the hardcore solo queue pvpers.

 

If you're a casual pvper, then you'll need to put time in to gear up. If bolster actually functioned the way the developers claimed it was supposed to, it would be nearly identical to this, 3 tiers of pvp gear, lowest tier being "bolster." Except the problem with bolster is, it's SO laden with exploits that it's BETTER than the top tier gear. This shouldn't be possible and it's unlikely that it will EVER be fixed/exploit free.

 

Now, for the issue of premades vs pugs, again, separate issue entirely, so please don't bring that into this thread. (here's another thread where that topic is being discussed Tony, http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=632226 )

 

If, however, you want to rephrase your post as "hardcore pvpers will be geared within a week and casual players will not be" then that's a valid argument, but again, it's based on time put into the game.

 

If you play, say, 2 hours a day, you should be able to get 4 pvp matches in at least, get the daily done, probably get at least 1 win, within a week, you'll have enough comms for several pieces.

 

It's a grind and that's the point.

 

Much like raiding, you can't jump into an op, 1-shot all the bosses, and get a full set of gear in a single run, it takes time. This, too, will take time.

 

The difference is, less stress on players with bolster out of the picture. Players will no longer need to worry about exploits or what gear is going to screw with their stats, i.e., they queue up with 1900 expertise, but happen to have 2 PVE crystals in their gear, then when they get in the match, suddenly they have 1600? ***? Yeah, that's just one of many problems with this system.

Edited May 4, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[TonyDragonflame]

PvP must be about skill, not about gear.

 

Any big gear gap allows hardcore pvp'ers who playing in premades gear up first and then roflstomped any solo pugs, which have also good pvp skill, but have not so plenty time for gearing up.

 

So, no. Just no. Bolster is fine, adapt and l2p.

 

Edit: I researched and discover how Bolster works, so i can craft (craft! not raiding!) for myself PvE gear which will be (with Bolster) competitive with min/max Partisan, but still worse than min/max Conqueror. Yes, i have Partisan gear too, but prefer playing in my min/max pve gear until i get full min/max Conqueror.

 

So, research issue too, l2p!

Edited May 4, 2013 by TonyDragonflame

[Ghost_Spectre]

After reading through these posts, I've seen some fundamentally good suggestions on how to approach the problem. However, these suggestions are still inside the box. I think the approach to our problem is how to satisfy the PvPer's grind for gear and the PvEer's want for a balance to play in PvP. I think the answer starts with the gear itself. Now before you fast forward through what I say here, take time to read, digest it, and think on it before answering it.

 

First, I believe the stats for Conqueror and Partisan should be equalized with Arakanian and Underworld gear. This would allow the PvP gear to function outside of a WZ. Conversely, removing expertise from the gear would be required.

 

Second, allow the bolster system to assign the necessary expertise and modify the stats as necessary to function inside a WZ. I believe Conqueror and Underworld should have the maximum amount of expertise and Arkanian and Partisan should be at least 5% less. While the stats themselves are slightly different, in some cases less, the expertise applied by Bolster would make a slight difference to show the advantages the top tier gear has over the lower gear. WH, EWH, Campaign and Dread Guard gear should be equal in expertise to Arkanian and Partisan; however, the stats the former have gives the newer gear a slight advantage over them.

 

Third, grinding for gear would still remain in place. Let's face it, many PvPers do not spend a lot of time outside of WZs for leveling except when they want to participate in Endgame content. Like PvEers, the PvPer grinds for their gear through comms (whereas PvEers do so through various levels of FPs and OPs). Both still take time to obtain, hence the grind.

 

Now with gear equalized across the board, you now have a balance in stats; main, secondary, and terienary. Essentially, PvP gear = PvE gear and vice versa in and out of a WZ. This allows PvPers to participate in Endgame content outside of the WZs while PvEers can participate on equal footing inside a WZ.

 

What you end up is something like we had in CoH/CoV where our some enhancements had dual purposes. That is one set of values for PvE and another set for PvP. The gear we have in SWTOR can have the same thing. However, instead of tasking the gear to do this, we have Bolster in place to do that for us. Of course, once it is fix that is.

 

I believe this will allow all parties to participate on an equal footing in both PvE and PvP. You still have to grind for the gear and as we know, once you have Arkanian and Partisan gear, obtaining Conqueror or Underworld will take just about the same amount of time to obtain for the "standard" players. I'm sure there will be those who spend endless hours either in PvP or PvE to achieve their goal for obtaining the top tier gear, that's a given. However, at the end of the day, the gear is earned, equal, and usable in either PvE or PvP and balanced.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Ghost_Spectre

[blooddodo]

PvP must be about skill, not about gear.

 

Any big gear gap allows hardcore pvp'ers who playing in premades gear up first and then roflstomped any solo pugs, which have also good pvp skill, but have not so plenty time for gearing up.

 

So, no. Just no. Bolster is fine, adapt and l2p.

 

Edit: I researched and discover how Bolster works, so i can craft (craft! not raiding!) for myself PvE gear which will be (with Bolster) competitive with min/max Partisan, but still worse than min/max Conqueror. Yes, i have Partisan gear too, but prefer playing in my min/max pve gear until i get full min/max Conqueror.

 

So, research issue too, l2p!

Without a proper ladder system, or some other equivalent, there is nothing to indicate what your skill level is within the game. Valor rating is completely irrelevant since you can only gain there, even when losing your way through wzs.

There is only one progression in the game currently for PvPers, and that is the gear. If you remove that, then PvP will lose its appeal to the vast majority of people who now focus mostly on that. Without incentive, most lose interest, you cannot argue this point.

You then end up with a PvP that is very much a side option akin to space battles, ignored by most everyone who plays the game.

 

TL;DR while PvP should be about skill, the current system is inadequate, and proceeding with what we have now will lead to disaster.

[Khalhazar]

I need to know what my stats will be going into a warzone, before going into that warzone. Right now, I'm playing musical relics in the 1 minute before a match. It's ridiculous.

 

We will never be able to trust bolster again. Suppose that they fix the empty-aug-slot problem. Then it'l come out that (say) level 20-25 green implants have an itemization bug that makes them bolster to better than conq. Then... etc, etc.

 

I just want to know what I've got before I click to queue. That's fair.

[TonyDragonflame]

Without a proper ladder system, or some other equivalent, there is nothing to indicate what your skill level is within the game. Valor rating is completely irrelevant since you can only gain there, even when losing your way through wzs.

There is only one progression in the game currently for PvPers, and that is the gear. If you remove that, then PvP will lose its appeal to the vast majority of people who now focus mostly on that. Without incentive, most lose interest, you cannot argue this point.

You then end up with a PvP that is very much a side option akin to space battles, ignored by most everyone who plays the game.

 

TL;DR while PvP should be about skill, the current system is inadequate, and proceeding with what we have now will lead to disaster.

 

Gear grind always need only for PvE crowd, true PvP'ers dont need it. They play just for fun of win, not for gear grind.

 

Only one thing which need for PvP'ers -is NOT gear grind, but INDIVIDUAL pvp rating. It is no valor, no ranked team wz rating, but individual solo rating, depending probably of objectives, wins wz and (hope BW make it) dueling wins on Arenas.

 

We need more WZ, need Arenas and need individual solo PvP rating. Not new gear grind.

[mr_ruiz]

TL;DR while PvP should be about skill, the current system is inadequate, and proceeding with what we have now will lead to disaster.

 

I don't think a lot of people understand this.

 

As an only-PvP-playing subscriber, why do I feel that the only part of the game that I enjoy, is being "care-bear'd". What reward is there for us full time PvP'rs that is on par with the PvE'r player that is a casual PvP'r?

 

I feel like I'm five each time I post in the PvP forums, because we have all posted these things over and over in five different ways, and none of us want to do things the other way.