lol bolster

[Phrase]

4) Anyone claiming Developers make bugs because it gives them job security should jump off a bridge because that gives them more speed than walking.

 

So, you're suggesting I commit suicide? I just want to clarify, because that's what it sounds like to me.

 

(Or are you being satiric as I was, which in turn would make you a hypocrite?)

Edited April 19, 2013 by Phrase

[Devlonir]

This is the problem right here. For some reason, a big bunch of you are making this huge leap from "they haven't implemented bolster properly yet" to "they never will." That is unfounded nonsense.

 

Seriously, some of you have all the patience of a gnat.

^^ This

 

This is exactly why I'm kicking against all those people complaining about it. Not because they don't have some valid points (they do!) but they are calling for changes which are just never going to happen, and a little patience goes a long way in things like this.

 

Bugs exist in software, a bug being fixed within a few weeks time is a VERY good timing. Especially if it is a complex one.

[Devlonir]

So, you're suggesting I commit suicide? I just want to clarify, because that's what it sounds like to me.

 

(Or are you being satiric as I was, which in turn would make you a hypocrite?)

Devs getting job security through creating bugs is nonsense is all I'm saying. Yes, short term they will have work to do, but long term making bugs is not what Developers want or get paid for.

Same as jumping of a bridge. Short term, your movement speed is enormous! Long term, it can not end well.

[Spincrossover]

Seriously, some of you have all the patience of a gnat.

 

As a consumer that is paying for a service I shouldn't need to have any patience. Just proper service (something PVP players didn't had in 2.0 launch and after 2 weeks still don't have). And this poor service (lets call it this way) isn't due to some sort of unexpected complications! It due to poor design, and even poorer testing. If in your work you did something like this to a service that had millions of clients and generated millions of dollars in revenue what would you costumers do? More importantly what would your boss do???

I fail to understand where the correct thing to do here is to patronize the devs.

[Arutar]

This is the problem right here. For some reason, a big bunch of you are making this huge leap from "they haven't implemented bolster properly yet" to "they never will."

 

This is true.

 

It should also be noted however, that on the other hand lots of people claim that the bolster all in all is ok now ("just some minor bugs"), when this is clearly not the case.

 

Heck, "Bolster is fine!" "Stop QQ threads" are as old as the whole bolster mess, when we now know that nothing worked as intended in the beginning ans STILL is not working.

 

Also, while patience is a virtue, I think it is not wrong to critique the current state of the game and not some possible future state of the game. Maybe come next Tuesday, everything will be sorted out. Maybe not.

[LarryRow]

As a consumer that is paying for a service I shouldn't need to have any patience. Just proper service (something PVP players didn't had in 2.0 launch and after 2 weeks still don't have). And this poor service (lets call it this way) isn't due to some sort of unexpected complications! It due to poor design, and even poorer testing. If in your work you did something like this to a service that had millions of clients and generated millions of dollars in revenue what would you costumers do? More importantly what would your boss do???

I fail to understand where the correct thing to do here is to patronize the devs.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't be extremely frustrated that bolster went live in a terribly bugged state. It would even be reasonable to ask for some kind of recompense, like a mount shaped like a torn couch pillow to commemorate broken Bolster for all time. And as a customer you are always free to take your money elsewhere.

 

But by now it should be obvious that Bioware is committed to Bolster. They are aware that we are annoyed. Posts like "just remove bolster," "this should never have gone live," and "get rid of expertise, problem solved" are just as useless as the people posting them.

[Burtlebe]

This is true.

 

It should also be noted however, that on the other hand lots of people claim that the bolster all in all is ok now ("just some minor bugs"), when this is clearly not the case.

 

Heck, "Bolster is fine!" "Stop QQ threads" are as old as the whole bolster mess, when we now know that nothing worked as intended in the beginning ans STILL is not working.

 

Also, while patience is a virtue, I think it is not wrong to critique the current state of the game and not some possible future state of the game. Maybe come next Tuesday, everything will be sorted out. Maybe not.

 

I guess I just take a longer view of the game and honestly am not having issues, once the bugs were noted I adapted as did many others I know who are far better pvpers than myself and are currently still enjoying pvp. People comparing this to a service are naïve or new to mmo's, after 19 years of mmo's I have learnt to roll with the changes and bugs and have fun otherwise its time to walk away from them.

[MysticGryph]

Why did you even bother changing the bolster in the first place there was nothing wrong with it!!

 

And it's still broken. I just saw a level 50 in normal gear do 600k damage!!

[Spincrossover]

But by now it should be obvious that Bioware is committed to Bolster.

 

Bioware is committed to endulge its players . To do so the players must share their opinion about changes they do to the game. This is how I picture it at least.

 

 

People comparing this to a service are naïve or new to mmo's, after 19 years of mmo's I have learnt to roll with the changes and bugs and have fun otherwise its time to walk away from them.

I only have about half your experience in MMO's splited between WoW and SWTOR in essence. I do agree that normal changes and bugs should be dealt with the "roll with it" attitude but I also think there are limits. To present such an imperfect work passes in my opinion all those limits. I imagine you passed through WoW at least a bit in that 19 year period. Did you experience this level of fail in all PVP enviorment? In any expansion did previous PVE gear beat current PVP gear? Do you recall in any game that PVP players where forced to run Raids (PVE content) to get the best PVP gear. I can have poor experience in MMO's but can't recall of any situation such as this...

[pqgarvis]

As a consumer that is paying for a service I shouldn't need to have any patience. Just proper service (something PVP players didn't had in 2.0 launch and after 2 weeks still don't have). And this poor service (lets call it this way) isn't due to some sort of unexpected complications! It due to poor design, and even poorer testing. If in your work you did something like this to a service that had millions of clients and generated millions of dollars in revenue what would you costumers do? More importantly what would your boss do???

I fail to understand where the correct thing to do here is to patronize the devs.

 

As a consumer you have the option to not consume, but lets take this a step further since you broght it up. Our market is all about supply and demand, this game for instance requires demand to exist, we in turn can not consume what isn't supplied. It's the circle of existence, you mention all the negatives about the product, then don't pay for it, if what you state is true then the product will no longer exist as the demand will decrease to nothing. In a competative market which gaming is in, if Star Wars was so horrible it wouldn't exist, and they exist because you and everyone else is playing (demanding) it.

 

Now look at another scenario: The supply of a product with no competition that has demand

 

Lets say there was only one supplier of Gasoline, and lets also say you absolutly hated the supplier. You could yell you could do any of a number of things yet the supplier could just laugh at you all the way to the bank because they know that no matter what you will need fuel and thus buy it from them. What's ironic is a lot of you treat (with your actions) Star Wars the old Republic as this scenario is true.

 

Point here is this, Star Wars the old Republic is anything but the only product available in our competative market, you and everyone here has very viable options, please use them. If all you whiners are right this game will no longer exist.

 

Please shut up and make actions not words (quit paying your sub, and for god's sake stop buying items off the Cartel Market which is hands down their biggest source of revenue).

 

I am not saying don't give them feedback, it's just that 90% of you initiate and respond on threads like terrorists, it's a free market!

[Savej]

I've never seen a major pvp system so poorly conceived and executed. I had concerns before 2.0's release but I gave BW the benefit of the doubt. But that was wrong. There isn't just one or two bugs with bolster, there are major fundamental logic issues and there are many bugs.

 

If you look at the history of expertise it is obvious we are going in convoluted and pointless circles.

In the beginning, expertise didn't do too much. People figured out that pve gear or mixes of pve/pvp gear were best. Pvp gear was good enough for the best pve as well. So BW bumped up expertise and lowered the relative pve stats. and they gave us a recruit set that people could buy for creds. Then they bumped expertise up more and gave us free , better recruit gear. Augments slipped in there to make recruit gear have lower relative stats (compared to max WH) because few would spend a million creds to max the crappy looking soon-to-be-replaced set. And now they are bumping expertise levels even more but they're giving all gear 80% (or whatever) of the maximum expertise... When it works, mathematically, this is very similar to simply removing 80% of the expertise from top pvp sets. Which brings us back to the beginning, except the current pvp sets aren't any good for pve. Where's the pve bolster?

 

Nevermind the bugs/exploits, I don't even see a proof of concept. Remove bolster, remove most of the expertise from everything, bump pvp gear's other stats to be nearer the pve equivalents and you will have a better game with optional gear paths and you won't force fresh 55s to start pvping at the bottom of the gear barrel. Or just remove expertise and make pvp gear the same as pve: Freedom!

 

Meanwhile the two pvp issues that I personally care most about (overdependence on and over-effectiveness of healers and the ridiculous amount of cc in this game) are not getting mentioned or addressed.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Savej

[Spincrossover]

As a consumer you have the option to not consume, but lets take this a step further since you broght it up. Our market is all about supply and demand, this game for instance requires demand to exist, we in turn can not consume what isn't supplied. It's the circle of existence, you mention all the negatives about the product, then don't pay for it, if what you state is true then the product will no longer exist as the demand will decrease to nothing. In a competative market which gaming is in, if Star Wars was so horrible it wouldn't exist, and they exist because you and everyone else is playing (demanding) it.

 

Now look at another scenario: The supply of a product with no competition that has demand

 

Lets say there was only one supplier of Gasoline, and lets also say you absolutly hated the supplier. You could yell you could do any of a number of things yet the supplier could just laugh at you all the way to the bank because they know that no matter what you will need fuel and thus buy it from them. What's ironic is a lot of you treat (with your actions) Star Wars the old Republic as this scenario is true.

 

Point here is this, Star Wars the old Republic is anything but the only product available in our competative market, you and everyone here has very viable options, please use them. If all you whiners are right this game will no longer exist.

 

Please shut up and make actions not words (quit paying your sub, and for god's sake stop buying items off the Cartel Market which is hands down their biggest source of revenue).

 

I am not saying don't give them feedback, it's just that 90% of you initiate and respond on threads like terrorists, it's a free market!

 

So in your opinion if I play a game where changes are made in way I feel ruins the gameplay I only have 2 options: Eat it quietly or abandon the game! So express your opinion about the state of the game is never an option for you?

I never said SWTOR was rubbish, what I (and a good number of other players too BTW) stated is that the change they made (reversible BTW) to the game also ruined my experience of the game in the process. Focus on REVERSIBLE changes!

 

I don't wish to stop playing the game, I wish they fix something they broke! Different story.

 

Let me just ask you a question: Do you feel PVP is better now?

[TUXs]

I've never seen a major pvp system so poorly conceived and executed. I had concerns before 2.0's release but I gave BW the benefit of the doubt. But that was wrong. There isn't just one or two bugs with bolster, there are major fundamental logic issues and there are many bugs.

 

If you look at the history of expertise it is obvious we are going in convoluted and pointless circles.

In the beginning, expertise didn't do too much. People figured out that pve gear or mixes of pve/pvp gear were best. Pvp gear was good enough for the best pve as well. So BW bumped up expertise and lowered the relative pve stats. and they gave us a recruit set that people could buy for creds. Then they bumped expertise up more and gave us free , better recruit gear. Augments slipped in there to make recruit gear have lower relative stats (compared to max WH) because few would spend a million creds to max the crappy looking soon-to-be-replaced set. And now they are bumping expertise levels even more but they're giving all gear 80% (or whatever) of the maximum expertise... When it works, mathematically, this is very similar to simply removing 80% of the expertise from top pvp sets. Which brings us back to the beginning, except the current pvp sets aren't any good for pve. Where's the pve bolster?

 

Nevermind the bugs/exploits, I don't even see a proof of concept. Remove bolster, remove most of the expertise from everything, bump pvp gear's other stats to be nearer the pve equivalents and you will have a better game with optional gear paths and you won't force fresh 55s to start pvping at the bottom of the gear barrel. Or just remove expertise and make pvp gear the same as pve: Freedom!

 

Meanwhile the two pvp issues that I personally care most about (overdependence on and over-effectiveness of healers and the ridiculous amount of cc in this game) are not getting mentioned or addressed.

Great post/summary/history - I'm especially in agreement with the highlighted yellow section. Expertise has been nothing but a pain in the arse since it was released. Obviously Bioware can simply NOT get it right and I fully agree that it should be removed entirely.

[Pistols]

This is the problem right here. For some reason, a big bunch of you are making this huge leap from "they haven't implemented bolster properly yet" to "they never will." That is unfounded nonsense.

 

Seriously, some of you have all the patience of a gnat.

 

Having that kind of patience is mandatory when playing TOR. Don't hate the players for garbage development.

 

The only thing I can say for sure that is "unfounded" is the EA Q/A department.

 

Anything else, is merely a reaction to it.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Pistols

[LarryRow]

Great post/summary/history - I'm especially in agreement with the highlighted yellow section. Expertise has been nothing but a pain in the arse since it was released. Obviously Bioware can simply NOT get it right and I fully agree that it should be removed entirely.

 

Not you too!

[Arutar]

People comparing this to a service are naïve or new to mmo's, after 19 years of mmo's I have learnt to roll with the changes and bugs and have fun otherwise its time to walk away from them.

 

Well, tbh, I have only about 7 years of previous MMORPG experience (I am curious, which MMOs were you playing back in '94?).

 

So yes, bugs are to be expected, but not the blind release of a completly untested version of a mechanic which messes which the entire PVP content of a game. This is what many PVPers are rightly upset about.

 

As said before, we are not talking about a few - to be expected - bugs, which happen only under some circumstances. When 2.0 went live, NOTHING, with the new bolster was working properly at all:

 

No gear was often better than having gear (now partial empty gear is still often better than full gear) . Old PVP gear was completely crap in PVP (now this is only true for some itema IF you not remove the pvp crystal manually). PVE gear was boosted more than intended (this still is an issue).

 

Regardless from the fact that at least some of this was known from the PTS, you would not even have needed a PTS to see all this before launch. Just going in a WZ once and toy with your gear for 2 minutes would have shown you that the bolster is messed up.

 

So, is the sky falling? No.

 

Things are slowly getting better which each Patch. Maybe in a couple of weeks, everything will be fine and even better than before. Until then, however, I think valid criticism should not be dismissed as "naive" or QQ out of hand.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Arutar

[MystbladeWA]

Valor has been meaningless since.... 1.2?

 

+40 valor is meaningless, yes. Maybe it will come back into play with Season 1 of "utterly useless and 12 months late" ranked wz's.

[pqgarvis]

So in your opinion if I play a game where changes are made in way I feel ruins the gameplay I only have 2 options: Eat it quietly or abandon the game! So express your opinion about the state of the game is never an option for you?

I never said SWTOR was rubbish, what I (and a good number of other players too BTW) stated is that the change they made (reversible BTW) to the game also ruined my experience of the game in the process. Focus on REVERSIBLE changes!

 

I don't wish to stop playing the game, I wish they fix something they broke! Different story.

 

Let me just ask you a question: Do you feel PVP is better now?

 

I perform the same now as I did at 50 (since all players are in the same game, skill stays the same, even with changes to the game) and I did state that constructive criticism (feedback) should be used. PvP is fine, are there bugs that need to be worked through? Of course there is, however none of them are nuclear.

 

I do empathise with you by the way; I have a one year old daughter that cries until she gets what she wants(since she lacks communication skills), the trick is regulating my daughter's expectations while we lack the full ability to communicate with each other.

[Pistols]

IPvP is fine, are there bugs that need to be worked through? Of course there is, however none of them are nuclear.

 

Lol

[TUXs]

Not you too!

 

Expertise...not Bolster. Bolster works fine 10-54. Expertise is the elephant in the room though. NOTHING they have done has made it better...nothing...it's only gotten worse and more **edit**ed up!

[Spincrossover]

PvP is fine, are there bugs that need to be worked through? Of course there is, however none of them are nuclear.

 

We have to agree in disagree. I really don't share your opinion.

 

I do empathise with you by the way; I have a one year old daughter that cries until she gets what she wants(since she lacks communication skills), the trick is regulating my daughter's expectations while we lack the full ability to communicate with each other.

 

Let me give a piece of advice, coming from a father with a bit more experience than you: Even way after she apprehends near to perfect communication skills the crying won't stop. Do yourself a favor and get used to it.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Spincrossover

[Omophorus]

Remove the bolster from lvl 55 pvp now. You made the gear almost obsolete. Why play and win now? We grind for something that is worth almost nothing.

 

This question is silly.

 

Why play PVP and try to win? To win at a competitive activity.

 

Look at the vast majority of other online non-MMO PVP. There's almost never any tangible benefit (besides leveling up and unlocking different equipment in some modern FPS games, which isn't supposed to convey a significant advantage but frequently does due to bad game design). The motivation is to win. To crush your enemies. To know that you're better than them, and be able to humiliate them with your superior abilities.

 

There might be brackets, ranking, stat-tracking, etc. so that you can see for yourself, and others can see for themselves, just how unstoppably ****** you are. You almost never get anything in-game to further extend that advantage (except as mentioned above), just vanity unlocks so that you can flaunt your superiority.

 

And really, that's all that should be needed to encourage a competitive gamer to keep competing.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Omophorus

[L-RANDLE]

Expertise...not Bolster. Bolster works fine 10-54. Expertise is the elephant in the room though. NOTHING they have done has made it better...nothing...it's only gotten worse and more **edit**ed up!

 

 

There is really not much of a difference between "EXP" and "Bolster" from a functionality standpoint. The Devs are trying to use two functions to control PvP, when really they only need one, and it actually should be EXP... The problem is having EXP on gear, and how Bolster affects it. They should nerf a full PvP set to around 200EXP and add that to the current low level PvE geared-bolster. Then all would be fine across the board...

 

I started another thread proposing this change.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=627519

[Kirtastropohe]

So many tears . Behold the tragedy, hard-core PvPers lost their crutch, the blasphemy!

 

Oh grow old already! There are some bugs in the bolster system, how shocking!!! BW get your **** together and correct those. Make sure that people that only PvP are not getting punished for that and you are done.

 

TLDR; There are some bugs in the bolster system that need to be eradicated (complex game, lots of variables no surprises here). We don't care to hear your mourning aver obsolete gear.

 

The complaining is about a disgustingly poor implementation of a radical change. It's not just about the obsolete gear. It's about a system that gave no benefit or consideration to those that did spend the time to grind gear out, and in fact, punished those who did. it's about having such a buggy and ill-conceived system where PVE gear now trumps PVP gear and here we are nearly two weeks later and the only fixes we have had were basically to remove EXP...further screwing us. And in the case of the +41 exp crystal, many people got that from cartel packs that they paid real money for.

 

It's about a game state where you currently have to be some sort of mad-scientist/genious to know which combination of PVE gear and empty slots to use in order to have a chance in the WZ. how many people know what to do? I haven't played this game in a week cause I've got better things to do than try to figure out this mess.

 

The system was not ready to be rolled out, and even if it were, the very concept of it is insulting and an indication of all that's wrong in the world...having to cater to those who haven't achieved anything (in this case, in terms of obtaining pvp gear). They may be committed to bolster, but it WON'T bolster their bottom line. It will only hurt it as players are going to move on.

[Spincrossover]

This question is silly.

 

Why play PVP and try to win? To win at a competitive activity.

 

Look at the vast majority of other online non-MMO PVP. There's almost never any tangible benefit (besides leveling up and unlocking different equipment in some modern FPS games, which isn't supposed to convey a significant advantage but frequently does due to bad game design). The motivation is to win. To crush your enemies. To know that you're better than them, and be able to humiliate them with your superior abilities.

 

There might be brackets, ranking, stat-tracking, etc. so that you can see for yourself, and others can see for themselves, just how unstoppably ****** you are. You almost never get anything in-game to further extend that advantage (except as mentioned above), just vanity unlocks so that you can flaunt your superiority.

 

And really, that's all that should be needed to encourage a competitive gamer to keep competing.

 

Do you know a game called World of Warcraft?

I advise you to see: these players. I'll give you a tip: PVP resilience==Expertise.

 

Players must retain some sort of reward other than just smash the opponent. If that was so there would be no gear progression what so ever. No boss would drop loot, after all you only needed to kill the boss as a reward.

 

PVE players get loot to be more efficient in their specific role (do more DPS, take less damage, do more HPS)

PVP players should have a way to be more efficient in their role in PVP also.