lol bolster

[BoushhDC]

I still haven't seen any new info from the devs about items that have mixed expertise/pve components on a single item.

 

To give a run down, there was a dev post after 2.0 went live initially stating that with the new bolster system, having an item that had expertise on it, but not in every slot... basically was a bad thing. This was seemingly directed at people that had characters with items, such as weapons (or other modifiable gear), with a +41 Expertise crystal and/or Expertise enhancements stripped out of pvp vendor purchases weapons, but the barrels/hilts and mods didn't contain expertise. (I have alts in this situation, but that's another story and not the question atm). Okay, so I also have (several) characters that I PvP'd with in the pre-2.0 top bracket (lvl 50s) that had/have WH/EWH gear. As we all know, on the WH/EWH gear, the Expertise was stripped off all the armor but not the weapons/offhand. The weapons and offhands still have +41 Expertise crystals in that one slot.

 

Question: IS THIS STILL DETRIMENTAL or not??

 

The reason I'm insisting on the info is that, when one of my now above 50 characters was sub 50, I bought a +41 Expertise crystal that could be used from lvl 10 (not cheap). When BW recently assured us that WH/EWH would be made viable again in the new system (prior to their deciding to reverse this and strip the Expertise) I went ahead and bought a lvl 50, +41 WH crystal in a rare color I liked (really not cheap). Now, we are where we are and the last info we were given was how mixed Expertise items were bad, with no updated info to the contrary and BW effectively turning in a weapon that previously didn't fall into that "mixed" category now has. I waited around but in the absence of info, went back to the GTN to buy a Non-Expertise crystal, again, in a rare color I liked because I'm the one going to be looking at it (really, really not cheap -- probably due to the demand 2.0 has created with all this crap -- and third trip just on this one character for this same slot item).

 

While I'm sure the crafters love me as a valued customer, this is ridiculous! Wasn't the whole argument of the non-pvp'ing centric community that set this whole damned ball rolling that it was too *expensive* in the under cap bracket to acquire good gear? Well...? And that's not to mention what I'm reading on the forums regarding what people are spending to remove augments, enhancments, et. al. and re-apply them in WZs (some implying *each* WZ) to "screw with the bolster" to get unintended stats... well, SSDD with one important distinction: it's not about "earning" a tier of gear, but how many creds you can shell out to optimize your character(s). I've pretty much hit my limit, and that's just for one slot on one item (or two, for those that duel wield).

 

Okay, now I'm more than irked, because I want the damned information before I go through this same process for all my other characters faced with this monster you devs forced upon us.

[Dealdrick]

"I know there is a bit of confusion about the bolster system" in the same post you say "Upon investigation we've discovered that pve gear is indeed better for pvp than pvp gear is"

 

 

Well we're so sorry for being confused as to why the **** you put a *********** system into a game that is giving pve gear better stats than pvp gear, where we can't *********** tell how to itemize because your *********** system randomly *********** changes the gosh darn stats on our gear.

 

Know why we're *********** confused about your system? Because YOU ARE *********** confused about your system!!

 

Don't give us this crap which you clearly haven't given a single thought about and then be shocked when we don't know what the **** you were smoking either when you put this through. The biggest problem right now is NONE of the **** you're doing right now makes any sense.

 

 

 

I have an idea for you pvp dev team on making a system that won't confuse us- why don't you put stats on the gear you get us to buy THAT DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY DO IN THE SITUATION WE'LL BE USING THEM.

 

^This.......

 

Get your **** together BW, this is pathetic. This "new and improved bolster" has been in developement for how long and its still broken in almost every aspect?? Worst Dev team ever

[Azarai]

I don't understand why BW has such a desire to reinvent the wheel...

[stephenalandavie]

The bottom line is Bioware Pvp gear is not viable in Pve Therefore Pve gear should not be viable in pvp.

[Jeeses]

Now I'm sure most of you forum posters have seen me backing bolster since its release. I will continue to do so because I see the light.

 

A big issue is the PVE>PVP because pve gear has higher stats and bolster gives them free expertise.

 

Imo, there is an easy solution to this. (possibly not easy to implement but anyway)

 

Bolster should boost you to a % of Partisan gear stats, lets say 70.00% ? Done on a per item basis obviously. Say you have 50% partisan gear, you'll only lose 15% stats compared to full partisan. Obviously %'s could be played with, but just using them as examples for now.

 

Bolster is only ever applied on gear without expertise . This would also mean that anyone with PvE gear that has higher stats is affected by bolster, but not purely by boosting their expertise.

What I am suggesting, is that when someone has PVE gear that is of a higher stat lvl than partisan, that they are debuffed, Bringing their stats back down to 70% that I suggested bolster would buff undergeared people to. Then those who are in greens etc, would be buffed. Which would result in them being reasonably competitive, so that they dont get roflstomped and leave pvp.

 

For the sake of the topic, lets look at http://www.torhead.com/item/1OcsN4G/...survivors-robe

 

It offers the following stats:

+116 Endurance

+43 Willpower

+82 Expertise Rating

+47 Absorption Rating

+56 Glance Rating

 

Now lets use my 70% figure on it,

 

81.2 Endurance

30.1 Will power

57.4 Expertise

32.9 Absorption rating

39.2 Glace rating

 

Presuming that they based the bolster stats off the partisan tanking chest (admittedly not the most likely choice) These would be the stats of the chest slot (only with gear in the slot, perhaps make the stats only 50% of partisan without gear to make people actually wear clothes) That did not already have expertise in the slot.

 

This would mean that those in bad lvling gear would be boosted upto to a competitive level, and those in good PVE gear would have their stats bought down and adjusted to a lvl that means that they are competitive, however not overpowered.

 

Unfortunately for those of you who hate bolster, it looks like its stuck around for the long run. Personally I think this is a good thing because overall its a good idea, it just needs to be played with a bit until its better.

Yes it should have been fixed on PTS, yes it shouldn't have been pushed to live as it is, but unfortunately it was, so instead of QQing and demanding it be removed, we need to search for ideas to fix the system.

 

Obviously my suggestion would make those PVE focused who casually pvp pretty butthurt because "my stats are bad why would I go into PVP" etc etc but really bolster isn't designed for those who are dedicated PVE players, its designed around those who are new, PVE players are in a weird grey area because they're technically new as far as PVP goes, but not new in general because of their PVE experience.

 

Later down the track, when conq gear is no longer the top, they could remove expertise from partisan (it would then be bolstered) and increase bolster to say 70% of conq gear. This way those who haven't pvp'd for a long time and return are once again semi current, and those who have a half decent set because of casual play will still remain competitive with the use of bolster. Using this sort of a system they could always increase the stats with each set greatly as they always have done, giving the appearance of a wonderful carrot on the end of the stick. But in reality you're always going to be a maximum % stronger than the newest of new players

[cripito]

The second issue we want to address is concerns over the balance between level 55 PvE and PvP gear. We have seen some reports from players around the forums and in this thread that they are seeing players wearing Underworld or Arkanian gear having higher stats under Bolster than people wearing Partisan or Conqueror.

 

After some investigation, it appears that this is true, but it is not intended. Although we always want to keep the PvP environment competitive even for players not wearing full PvP sets, Partisan and Conqueror should be performing better in Warzones than their PvE counterparts. We will be deploying a fix for this in 2.0.1 which will be coming out on Tuesday.

 

I know there is still a bit of confusion around the Bolster system, how it affects stats and Expertise and I am working on getting some more information on it. Sometime after 2.0.1 I am going to work with the combat team on getting a “mathy” post explaining a bit about Bolster and how it works which will hopefully work to clear up some confusion. As you can imagine, it is a pretty complex system.

 

I hope that alleviates some of your concerns with the issue of PvE v PvP gearing and thank you all for your feedback.

 

-eric

 

 

Eric..

 

You guys still not getting it.. remove the bolster from 55 pvp.. there is a WHOLE comuninity raging for that.

 

Unread Today , 02:40 AM | #1132

Report Post Quote

The bottom line is Bioware Pvp gear is not viable in Pve Therefore Pve gear should not be viable in pvp

Edited April 18, 2013 by cripito

[Phrase]

Now I'm sure most of you forum posters have seen me backing bolster since its release. I will continue to do so because I see the light.

 

A big issue is the PVE>PVP because pve gear has higher stats and bolster gives them free expertise.

 

Imo, there is an easy solution to this. (possibly not easy to implement but anyway)

 

Bolster should boost you to a % of Partisan gear stats, lets say 70.00% ? Done on a per item basis obviously. Say you have 50% partisan gear, you'll only lose 15% stats compared to full partisan. Obviously %'s could be played with, but just using them as examples for now.

 

Bolster is only ever applied on gear without expertise . This would also mean that anyone with PvE gear that has higher stats is affected by bolster, but not purely by boosting their expertise.

What I am suggesting, is that when someone has PVE gear that is of a higher stat lvl than partisan, that they are debuffed, Bringing their stats back down to 70% that I suggested bolster would buff undergeared people to. Then those who are in greens etc, would be buffed. Which would result in them being reasonably competitive, so that they dont get roflstomped and leave pvp.

 

For the sake of the topic, lets look at http://www.torhead.com/item/1OcsN4G/...survivors-robe

 

It offers the following stats:

+116 Endurance

+43 Willpower

+82 Expertise Rating

+47 Absorption Rating

+56 Glance Rating

 

Now lets use my 70% figure on it,

 

81.2 Endurance

30.1 Will power

57.4 Expertise

32.9 Absorption rating

39.2 Glace rating

 

Presuming that they based the bolster stats off the partisan tanking chest (admittedly not the most likely choice) These would be the stats of the chest slot (only with gear in the slot, perhaps make the stats only 50% of partisan without gear to make people actually wear clothes) That did not already have expertise in the slot.

 

This would mean that those in bad lvling gear would be boosted upto to a competitive level, and those in good PVE gear would have their stats bought down and adjusted to a lvl that means that they are competitive, however not overpowered.

 

Unfortunately for those of you who hate bolster, it looks like its stuck around for the long run. Personally I think this is a good thing because overall its a good idea, it just needs to be played with a bit until its better.

Yes it should have been fixed on PTS, yes it shouldn't have been pushed to live as it is, but unfortunately it was, so instead of QQing and demanding it be removed, we need to search for ideas to fix the system.

 

Obviously my suggestion would make those PVE focused who casually pvp pretty butthurt because "my stats are bad why would I go into PVP" etc etc but really bolster isn't designed for those who are dedicated PVE players, its designed around those who are new, PVE players are in a weird grey area because they're technically new as far as PVP goes, but not new in general because of their PVE experience.

 

Later down the track, when conq gear is no longer the top, they could remove expertise from partisan (it would then be bolstered) and increase bolster to say 70% of conq gear. This way those who haven't pvp'd for a long time and return are once again semi current, and those who have a half decent set because of casual play will still remain competitive with the use of bolster. Using this sort of a system they could always increase the stats with each set greatly as they always have done, giving the appearance of a wonderful carrot on the end of the stick. But in reality you're always going to be a maximum % stronger than the newest of new players

 

Awfully long post for an "easy" fix. At this point they should just eliminate expertise and change Partisan/ Conqueror to Arkanian/ Underworld on the pvp vendors. Keep the costs in wz comms the same, as well as the trade in mechanic and be done with it. Then they can have their balanced game where everyone can do all of the content all of the time w/o any real work involved.

[Jeeses]

Awfully long post for an "easy" fix. At this point they should just eliminate expertise and change Partisan/ Conqueror to Arkanian/ Underworld on the pvp vendors. Keep the costs in wz comms the same, as well as the trade in mechanic and be done with it. Then they can have their balanced game where everyone can do all of the content all of the time w/o any real work involved.

 

 

 

It is an easy fix, I've gone in depth as much as possible to attempt to put forth a constructive argument and possible solution, that could be replied to and evolved into a possibly really good fix to the problem. Not a "DERP I NO HOW 2 FX DA BLTSA ISHU DO DIS DEN DAT = FXD"

 

 

PvP players will always want PvP gear, and PvE players will always want PvE gear, whilst I can see the logic behind your idea, I dont think its an ideal solution, however simple it would indeed be.

[Phrase]

It is an easy fix, I've gone in depth as much as possible to attempt to put forth a constructive argument and possible solution, that could be replied to and evolved into a possibly really good fix to the problem. Not a "DERP I NO HOW 2 FX DA BLTSA ISHU DO DIS DEN DAT = FXD"

 

 

PvP players will always want PvP gear, and PvE players will always want PvE gear, whilst I can see the logic behind your idea, I dont think its an ideal solution, however simple it would indeed be.

 

You're the one promoting an "easy" fix and then suggesting a system that is just as intensive in figuring stats as the current bolster seems to be. The problem with bolster is all of the gear variables and that's where the current problem lies. Their algorithms don't appear to be intelligent enough to figure out how to itemize properly across multiple gear levels.

 

As far as "derpy" solutions, what was the whole "remove expertise from wh/ ewh", which effectively turned that PvP gear into campaign/ dg? So why not go the next logical step and just make all gear equal and be done with it w/o having to resort to complex algorithms that seem to be broken more than work?

 

I do like my PvP gear, and I worked hard for it from launch on, even suffering through missile clicking on Ilum and random BM bags. Now ALL of that work has been TAKEN from me. And before you come back at me with your derpy "It's an expac l2grind noob" garbage, read some of the other threads where people are saying there's absolutely no difference between EWH under bolster and Partisan. This means that players are being forced to re-grind Partisan merely as a gate to getting Conqueror with no intrinsic purpose for grinding Partisan itself as a progression from old tier to new. Imagine if people had to regrind Dread Guard just to get Arkanian; people would be pissed.

 

So no thank you to even more convoluted, derpy maths.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Phrase

[BoushhDC]

Now I'm sure most of you forum posters have seen me backing bolster since its release. I will continue to do so because I see the light.[...]

 

Instead of that ^ big mess, and BW's even bigger mess how about *instead* go with the top bracket (55) having NO bolster. There is PvP gear where Conqueror>Partisan>Battlemaster making the differences between the tiers small, eliminating Recruit altogether, but like recruit gear, give everyone free Battlemaster gear when people hit 55. All tiers modifiable, but with a modicum of gear progression as reward.

 

There. Wasn't that simple? Doesn't that achieve what most say they want?

[Phrase]

Instead of that ^ big mess, and BW's even bigger mess how about *instead* go with the top bracket (55) having NO bolster. There is PvP gear where Conqueror>Partisan>Battlemaster making the differences between the tiers small, eliminating Recruit altogether, but like recruit gear, give everyone free Battlemaster gear when people hit 55. All tiers modifiable, but with a modicum of gear progression as reward.

 

There. Wasn't that simple? Doesn't that achieve what most say they want?

 

Certainly better than Good Will Hunting's solution.

[BoushhDC]

Certainly better than Good Will Hunting's solution.

 

lol. What solution is that?

Edited April 18, 2013 by BoushhDC

[Drekevec]

I want to start off by saying there are some really salty people in this thread, LOL FACT....But uh, seriously the amount of fallacy I have read in just the last few pages is outstanding. People just whining about this and that. NOTHING is broken. You just do not like it. <shrug> I will again mention my fix just to emphasize my belief in the system. Make PVP and PVE gear the exact same and base damage output through all channels of the game on your actual stats. Expertise is nothing more than a mirage to us (the PVP community). I could really go into depth about why this is but I will spare you all. BTW just to be clear I had all WH and about 1/4 of my EWH gear. Just to give you guys some insight. That is all, For the Empire....

[Avicii]

Why can't you emergency patch it?

 

A week is a long time to have a broken and exploitable system in warzones.

 

This. I understand it takes time but leaving PvP in a exploitable state for week intervals is not a good idea at least the prior patch most everyone was on even footing going nude or stripping off certain items but now it is worse. Yes people hate server down time but having an enjoyable PvP experience should weigh as more important.

[Jeeses]

You're the one promoting an "easy" fix and then suggesting a system that is just as intensive in figuring stats as the current bolster seems to be. The problem with bolster is all of the gear variables and that's where the current problem lies. Their algorithms don't appear to be intelligent enough to figure out how to itemize properly across multiple gear levels.

 

As far as "derpy" solutions, what was the whole "remove expertise from wh/ ewh", which effectively turned that PvP gear into campaign/ dg? So why not go the next logical step and just make all gear equal and be done with it w/o having to resort to complex algorithms that seem to be broken more than work?

 

I do like my PvP gear, and I worked hard for it from launch on, even suffering through missile clicking on Ilum and random BM bags. Now ALL of that work has been TAKEN from me. And before you come back at me with your derpy "It's an expac l2grind noob" garbage, read some of the other threads where people are saying there's absolutely no difference between EWH under bolster and Partisan. This means that players are being forced to re-grind Partisan merely as a gate to getting Conqueror with no intrinsic purpose for grinding Partisan itself as a progression from old tier to new. Imagine if people had to regrind Dread Guard just to get Arkanian; people would be pissed.

 

So no thank you to even more convoluted, derpy maths.

 

So gear with Ilvl below X being boosted to a % of Partisan and gear without expertise, but an Ilvl above X to be defbuffed to the same % of Partisan. It may not be able to be perfectly implemented across the board easily, but it would definitely move forward with what they're trying to do.

 

The problem is that people don't understand that Bolster is here to stay, I agree that simply having Recruit<Battlemaster<War Hero<Elite War Hero would be the number 1 best solution and would indeed solve all issues involved. Handing one out with ding and then replaces the base level gear as time goes on and people are higher geared, however I am also very aware that they won't be getting rid of bolster in the foreseeable future, they've invested too much time in the system to just throw it away at the first sign of a problem.

 

So I am looking for a solution to the problem, whilst keeping the bolster system, because I know that it won't be going away. You, however are searching for a fix that also removes bolster, good luck with that.

[Jherad]

Bioware will do what Bioware will do.

 

Suggestions are filed in /dev/null.

[grandmofftarkin]

Bioware will do what Bioware will do.

 

Suggestions are filed in /dev/null.

 

Yeah exactly.

 

[foo@bar:~]$ echo "all good ideas" > /dev/null

[foo@bar:~]$ ./gg

[Phrase]

Yeah exactly.

 

[foo@bar:~]$ echo "all good ideas" > /dev/null

[foo@bar:~]$ ./gg

 

 

/10char

[MasterFeign]

I think it would be acceptable, if underworld/arkanian gear (or w/e the names are), performed at the very least, 30% less better than pvp gear.

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the change this Tuesday, would be pathetically abysmal.

[Jeeses]

I think it would be acceptable, if underworld/arkanian gear (or w/e the names are), performed at the very least, 30% less better than pvp gear.

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the change this Tuesday, would be pathetically abysmal.

 

I made a thread basically about this

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=627635

 

With the addition of boosting gear below standard up.

[fungihoujo]

They should make it so pve gear has to mixed and matched, with empty mod slots and naked gear slots to get the perfect combination to do well in pve, y'know, cuz that makes sense.

 

amirite?

 

Doesn't matter if I'm right- BW agrees with me. Nuf said.

 

lern2ungear

[Tarn_Sirun]

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

 

 

Wait a second, you are saying Expertise DOES work out of warzones? because I have been told differently by a customer service rep.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152145395055400&set=o.130384950383843&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152145395010400&set=o.130384950383843&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152145395040400&set=o.130384950383843&type=1&theater

 

So what is the correct answer, does it work outside of warzones or not?

[dlaxmcm]

I think it's sad that the biggest lesson BW (and EA) should have learned is release dates do not = profit. Revenue is generated by announcing a release date and meeting it, but PROFIT is generated through quality content. The main reason this game failed to generate and sustain players is the fact that the retail version was incomplete! 2.0 was a perfect opportunity to shine in the spotlight generated by gradual improvement and a successful transition to F2P. Bioware dropped the ball again though by not ensuring their product was ready.

 

If their team actually follows this thread the only message I want to send to them is PLEASE understand that gamers will always wait for, comeback to, and continue to play a game that focuses relentlessly on quality and testing, not release dates.

 

And BTW you have the Star Wars license...... drugs sell themselves

Edited April 18, 2013 by dlaxmcm

[painterwhit]

Great, so the 55 bracket will hopefully be fixed. Unfortunately, THERE ARE 54 OTHER LEVELS!

 

A week?!? Seriously?!? On top of that nothing in that post says anything about fixing any of the other issues with this crappy bolster. Only that you will get us the math sometime......really?!?

 

7 days and counting. That's how long before this game will be 1 less customer. If there isn't SOMEthing more concrete than "sometime after 2.0.1" by then I'll be moving on to some other game.

[Kegparty]

Great, so the 55 bracket will hopefully be fixed. Unfortunately, THERE ARE 54 OTHER LEVELS!

 

A week?!? Seriously?!? On top of that nothing in that post says anything about fixing any of the other issues with this crappy bolster. Only that you will get us the math sometime......really?!?

 

7 days and counting. That's how long before this game will be 1 less customer. If there isn't SOMEthing more concrete than "sometime after 2.0.1" by then I'll be moving on to some other game.

 

If you post the math on the thread you get your posts deleted.