lol bolster

[Dencre]

bolster was a very stupid idea

[Djed]

The best solution would have been to increase Endurance on "lesser" pvp gear and have expertise be the deciding factor in what is "better" pvp gear. Instead of implementing a complex system of bolster on which you seem to have no control over. Oh well...

[Eggsbacon]

is it really the end of the world for them if they just remove bolster from level 55 pvp?

[Devlonir]

It's better huh? <looks back at the past 100 pages> Ya, I don't think anyone agrees with you there.

Look better.

 

I did this before in the past, but if you go through a 100 page thread about a subject like this, in the end there is not much more than 1 unique poster per page (usually around 1.2 / 1.3 unique poster per page on average).

Also, if everyone agreed, the thread would not make 100 pages because there was no need to discuss anything. It would just be a 'petition' style thread where actually everyone agreed, and after about 100 posters the thread would be done with.

 

People so often post page counts to prove their point right, but the only thing it proves is that the subject is alive in the community and is being deeply discussed, often with very different views on what is right or wrong. In no way is it proof of one point over the other, unless you make a deep analysis of posts and opinions and how they respond to each other.

 

But, there are many in this thread and others who feel this current system, even if exploitable, is superior to the huge gear gap in 1.7. As long as Bioware fixes those exploits on a near weekly basis as soon as they become clear, they will still have my subscription. I've had more fun in PVP now than I had in all the months before.

 

And to those claiming all those "10k+ more HP than me enemies because they are in PVE gear being more unbalanced than 1.7 was" you should probably have a better look at their other stats, and at your own stats. Pre 1.7, the guys with 8k more HP than you were actually fully optimized on all stats, not just HP.

[Devlonir]

TL;DR

1. The gear gap was, and still is, highly over exaggerated.

2. Skill and Commitment trumps stats 100% of the time.

Agree with your second point, disagree with the first.

 

And only because the Devs themselves came out and said there was a 60-80% difference in efficiency from gear between Recruit and fully augmented EWH. That is a difference no amount of skill can beat, as experienced by many PVPers who rolled a new alt and had to go through the week or 2 of losing grind to get any efficiency back in their actions.

 

Sure, you could roll a new Assassin and probably do useful stuff defending a side turret in Civil War or Novare long enough for reinforcements. But that is far from what you could do if you actually had gear.

[DroidDreamer]

The really worrisome idea (worrisome to both PvE and PvP) that the change to WH/ EWH brings to the table is the precedent BW has set by making a radical change to the itemization of a gear set with no warning. To those who say gear resets happen, deal with it; how many of you saw them stripping expertise from WH/ EWH in the xpac? It blindsided all of us. That's the problem with what they did to WH/ EWH.

 

Don't mind new gear tiers. But to make the top tier of the last gear total garbage overnight? That's not cool. At least they could have made it a bridge/transition into the new tiers. Now that I am mostly out of my old min/maxed EWH it feels like I was wearing the original Recruit gear.

[Atramar]

bolster was a very stupid idea

 

bolster is fantastic idea. it lets good pve players but not so dedicated to pvp to actually start without getting slaughtered and rewarding their time in pve, not punishing.

 

execution and coding behind it didn't work out well, but that's matter of tweaking the system.

idea is perfect.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Atramar

[Gorahson]

bolster is fantastic idea. it lets good pve players but not so dedicated to pvp to actually start without getting slaughtered and rewarding their time in pve, not punishing.

 

execution and coding behind it didn't work out well, but that's matter of tweaking the system.

idea is perfect.

 

LOL.

 

I don't see bolster in flashpoints or operations to let good pvp players, but not so dedicated to pve to actually have some fun in there without getting whined at for having subpar pve gear and rewarding them for their time in pvp, not punishing.

 

But irony aside... bolster at lvl 55 should perhaps add a little bit of expertise to make entry bit easier. It's not supposed to patch dps optimized pve gears with 1800 expertise, so pve can roll around and have better stats than

dedicated pvp players, because they have to be rewarded for their pve time. Well... if you want pve time reward, go back to pve and flash your shiny gear there - it's higher item level than pvp gear anyway. Want decent pvp action and gear? Grind it like anyone else does.

[Cretinus]

Don't mind new gear tiers. But to make the top tier of the last gear total garbage overnight? That's not cool. At least they could have made it a bridge/transition into the new tiers. Now that I am mostly out of my old min/maxed EWH it feels like I was wearing the original Recruit gear.

 

If there was transitional PvP gear, then it would have to be one that is obtainable by everybody. This is obviously not the case here, cause the old WH/EWH gear is no longer sold at the vendor. To make it a transitional PvP gear would produce a situation where people are owned by gear that they are not even allowed to buy.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Cretinus

[Arutar]

bolster is fantastic idea. it lets good pve players but not so dedicated to pvp to actually start without getting slaughtered and rewarding their time in pve, not punishing.

 

Yeah but the same could have been done by simply making PVE gear = PVP gear (no expertise).

 

=Much more transparant, easy and fair since it would mean that PVP players could take part in the other half of the content (PVE) as well without having to grind another set (like PVE player can do now with respect to PVP).

 

OR, if they definetly want two different sets of gear they could have simply reduced the effect of expertise (instead of buffing it), and give PVP gear slightly more stats than now (but less than PVE gear). This way, PVP gear would stlill be slightly better in PVP and PVE gear would slightly better in PVE without need for any Bolster.

 

Finally, the 2.0 combination of buffed expertise + a bolster which gives everyone expertise in WZ might in the end work (if they get their math straight) for WZ PVP.

 

But open PVP? GL with you PVE gear there, cuz unlike the other two sugesstions above the current sytem fails hard for open PVP.

 

Now, this may simpy mean that Bioware has given up on making open PVP work in the near future. However, there is still at least the Gree event...

[Atramar]

LOL.

 

I don't see bolster in flashpoints or operations to let good pvp players, but not so dedicated to pve to actually have some fun in there without getting whined at for having subpar pve gear and rewarding them for their time in pvp, not punishing.

 

But irony aside... bolster at lvl 55 should perhaps add a little bit of expertise to make entry bit easier. It's not supposed to patch dps optimized pve gears with 1800 expertise, so pve can roll around and have better stats than

dedicated pvp players, because they have to be rewarded for their pve time. Well... if you want pve time reward, go back to pve and flash your shiny gear there - it's higher item level than pvp gear anyway. Want decent pvp action and gear? Grind it like anyone else does.

 

don't you lol me

 

irony missed. you should iron it more to make it smooth.

pve is versus fixed number of fixed mechanics AI which can be undergeared, over geared or 'suggested geared', while pvp is player versus player, similar entities. no fixed mechanics and should be more equal (so bolster is needed), but, as I would preffer system where gear is same for both activities (it'r ridiculus when I have to wear 3 sets of gear with me all the time, sometimes 4 sets, on few chars) with small boster on pvp side.

not to mention, that on pve L61-63 pvp gear is overgearing L50 hms which gives you comms that you can gear for L 55 hms and ops, while once you hitted L 55, there is no 'easy mode' for pvp.

 

Arutar: there is nothing in this game on open world (besides few world bosses, but then you are in team and people usualy have culture of not ruining others world boss fights) that would require you to wear top tier pve set to complete. new first tier pvp gear is more then enouth to do makeb, dailies, heroics... Gankers usualy roll for people who have no chance against them and if they have slightest chacne of losing, usualy run away (this is why I rollled pve server, not to have to deal with jerks-still I was flagged few times by some jerks before they fixed flagging aoe bug).

Edited April 22, 2013 by Atramar

[Illyean]

I guess a big question is 'can they fix this?' and by 'this' I mean PvP. In harsh light every single thing they have done to PvP has made it worse, at best they have fixed one thing and broken many others. 2.0 is a hue combat rebalance and changes some fundamental mechanics, I would bet dollars to donuts that the bolster team didn't even have the 'final' 2.0 combat code to work with until very late but it's all academic now. BW took another pvP hit with this mess and naked PvP, I dont think anyone outside of the player base was really watching so compared to their Ilum train wreck i think they may have gotten away with it, even though its probably a bigger mess.

 

These forums are rife with calls for dump bolster, dump expertise, make pve gear and pvp gear the same, end pvp gear progression, maintain pvp gear progression.... etc etc etc. So can they fix this? I don't think they can, I think they have layered an overly complex system on top of the combat engine and they could end up chasing fixes for months. I do not know if there is a satisfactory cut and run option available to them in terms of trying to do something to by time, for sure I think their intentions were good and the concept of bolster is a decent one.

 

Dumping bolster is not really an option to them, they did not build this because it was not required (at least we will assume that to be the case) so they have to fix it. Dumping expertise, which is the gate stat to prevent pve gear being better than pvp gear, could work but I don't know if everyone would be happy that you can gear up for pve by doing pvp, even if they took the same sort of time investment.

 

BW are very very badly disengaged from the pvp community, shamefully so given what they have done. I can not see how anything will change, its quite clear they think they will fix this and until they do we wait, when they patch in the next change we will see but I don't have any sense that they are engaging with us at any level (not me personally, but if they were I would expect to see clear evidence that they were), fair play to Eric for at least doing his bit.

 

I enjoy (have enjoyed) PvP, mostly as a good, accessible alternative to the PvE bust-a-move dance routines (where is my epic PvE? not the 16 guys wailing on one boss with a bazillion HP), but maybe it time to just call it a day, remove the PvP specific stats and let pve and pvp gear be equal, simplify bolster and remove it from ranked completely. By simplify I mean take a slot, if gear in slot < partisan (entry level) then bolster to 95% of the equivalent partisan slot item - use the expertise tree to decide if tank/dps/heals gear should be used.

 

Whatever they do I want it to NOT be a huge development time sink for months, as at the end of it we still have ALL the other PvP issues to contend with that should be getting fixed, season 1, proper matchmaking, cross server, etc

 

can they fix this?

Edited April 22, 2013 by Illyean

[Kirtastropohe]

They've broken not only PVP, but what should really concern them is that they've also broken any desire of mine to play this game right now. It's their property and they can make what changes they want, but actions have consequences. They have royally slapped a good portion of their subscriber base in the face. I wonder how in the heck they could screw things up so bad. They couldn't do worse if they tried to sabotage the game.

 

They very concept of what they tried to do irks me, nevermind how they did it. Screwing the PvP community over (again) is just another in a long line of fails. I'm fed up with it and this game, unfortunately. I'm reserving a final decision on what to do with my sub until I see the so-called "mathy" email detailing the full mechanics of bolster, and they better include some instructions as to how to proceed.

 

As of now, I have no desire to play mad-scientist and attempt to mix and match gear, empty slots to try and be able to compete in a WZ. Hard to believe they could turn someone so enthused with the game as I was into someone who really has no desire to play, but they have. I'm just one person, but I'm sure there are plenty of others as putoff as I am.

[gtangtan]

I had 7 toons with max comms before 2.0 rolled out so i could gear my main with full conqueror gear. Who knew all of that work meant nothing since I could've just wore my hacked pve set and dish out 30% dmg and have 20% more hp than BIS pvp gear. I refuse to pvp until they fix this ****.

[L-RANDLE]

 

And only because the Devs themselves came out and said there was a 60-80% difference in efficiency from gear between Recruit and fully augmented EWH.

 

Sorry Devlonir, but this is a prime example of exaggeration I was speaking of. If gear was the sole reasoning for this, how the hell did recruit smashers (or any other AC for that matter)perform in any WZ? If BW would have simply added a FREE MK6 augment slot to recruit gear, the "gap" would have been solved...

 

 

The numbers never added up. If I look at my augmented EWH, versus him in unaugmented Recruit

 

EXP gap was around 6%.

END was around 20%

MAIN was around 17%

 

How the hell does that add up to 60-80% for a given AC? How do you even quantify that number?That also still ignores the fact that people were not augmenting their Recruit gear.

 

Again, this is not insurmountable, if all AC's were close enough in performance, but the truth is, they were not.. A WH/EWH DPS Commando, had no shot against the output of a Recruit Smasher. Some AC's could handle the slight deficit, some could not. That is a class balance issue and a player's personal choice not to increase their performance.....

 

When you look a different ACs, the gap could be as small as 10% and as large as 50%. As rough example, my hardest hit on my guardian was around 6900, while my Sage was around 4800. That's almost a 50% delta, with each having vitrually the same stats/build. Hell, I even "stole" the enhancements(POW/SUR) and augments(Overkill) from my Sage and gifted them to my Guardian because of this issue:

 

Regardless of what gear tier you speak of, given the same gear set, my Guardian would always be 50% stronger than my DPS Sage.. This is the real "gap". Class Balance. This is why I argue so passionately about this. Gear has never been an issue in PvP from a performance and/or attainability standpoint.

 

 

"60-80% eff based on gear alone"

 

coolstorybro?

 

/hopingforafixthistuesday

[DroidDreamer]

If there was transitional PvP gear, then it would have to be one that is obtainable by everybody. This is obviously not the case here, cause the old WH/EWH gear is no longer sold at the vendor. To make it a transitional PvP gear would produce a situation where people are owned by gear that they are not even allowed to buy.

 

Who said anything about owning people with gear you can't buy? What I said was that people's existing gear should not be turned into garbage over night. I was getting owned by people who weren't wearing anything. All that gear was "free." EWH should have been slightly below Partisan. Instead, it's like MK-1 Recruit gear. That's bullcrap.

 

Again, I don't mind the gear reset and don't mind re-grinding the new gear but for future reference, Bioware, you don't have to make existing gear completely worthless in order to incentivize people to grind new sets!

[Arutar]

? If BW would have simply added a FREE MK6 augment slot to recruit gear, the "gap" would have been solved...

 

 

That is a very valid point, which is rarely adressed. The augmentation system is and was always one of the biggest reasons for any gear gap which allowed new WZ players to get stomped.

 

A fully augmented recruit gear set would have been by no means perfect, but it would have allowed for a meaningful contributiion and item progression.

[Kegparty]

That is a very valid point, which is rarely adressed. The augmentation system is and was always one of the biggest reasons for any gear gap which allowed new WZ players to get stomped.

 

A fully augmented recruit gear set would have been by no means perfect, but it would have allowed for a meaningful contributiion and item progression.

 

Completely agree with this but here we are now huh.

[Devlonir]

"60-80% eff based on gear alone"

 

coolstorybro?

So.. the numbers you post show there wasn't a problem?

 

Please, look at more than just what you just did. The truly efficient people had gear well over what you posted compared to Recruit MK-2 unaugmented. Also, when talking about efficiency we are talking about what they can actually do within a warzone.

 

Someone with less expertise, gets more damage, does less.

Someone with less Endurance, dies from less damage (still gets more damage)

Someone with less main stat, does less damage (and still does less damage because of less expertise)

 

And within your entire figure, you completely ignore the green stats, which all serious EWH+augments PVPers maximized once they hit the Expertise efficiency cap. And those differences got a lot bigger a lot faster. More crit chance and more crit damage goes a long way of doing even more damage on the person who already gets more and can handle less.

 

Count to that also the people with less gear die more and, because of that, can spend less time doing useful things for the team. You easilly saw a 60-80% difference on numbers you could pull out on gear alone.

 

Finally, before throwing more useless math this way:

 

If I have 20% less stats than someone else (say, he has 100 END, I have 80 END) that means he has 25% more stats than me. If someone has 50% less stats than me, I already have 100% more stats than he has. So depending on where you count from (from the guy on top, or the guy on the bottom) 60-80% efficiency difference is very quickly achieved.

 

Or, more precisely: if I had gear that allowed me to do 40% less endgame results than you (all other things equal) regardless of what I do; you would have 67% more efficiency than me within the match. And 20% less here, 17% less there, 5% less here, etc.. all these things add up to each other one way or the other to quickly be a 40% less efficiency within the match.

 

So, conclusion, your numbers actually prove my point more than they disprove them.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Devlonir

[Devlonir]

That is a very valid point, which is rarely adressed. The augmentation system is and was always one of the biggest reasons for any gear gap which allowed new WZ players to get stomped.

 

A fully augmented recruit gear set would have been by no means perfect, but it would have allowed for a meaningful contributiion and item progression.

So.. give F2P players a gear set that is so high when they ding 50 they will never need to buy the purple unlock?

 

Yeah, that's good business..

 

Recruit gear was not a solution to a problem, it was merely a patch to stop it from bleeding.

[Arutar]

So.. give F2P players a gear set that is so high when they ding 50 they will never need to buy the purple unlock?

 

Yeah, that's good business..

 

In which way would that differ from the current always on bolster system?

 

Also, I did not want to advocate a certain solution in this post at all. I just wanted to point out that when talking about gear gap, you should also talk about augments, a main and often overlooked factor regarding the old gear gap.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Arutar

[Devlonir]

In which way would that differ from the current always on bolster system?

The major difference is that each new Recruit set eventually invalidates the other side of the coin: PVE gear progression, on a certain level.

When Bioware was forced to give away Tionese because fresh 50s were only using the Recruit gear, this was basicly accepting their mistake and just giving equal gear to Recruit in PVE manner as well. Had they continued to increase this, they would have removed entry level gear grinding from PVE entirely.

 

They clearly decided this was something they still want entry level grind for PVE, but don't want for PVP, where the playing field needs to be more equal. Bolster to 49 did that before as well for all level ranges (levels being more a PVE thing than a PVP thing anyway) and now this new system does that at entry level endgame PVP as well.

 

And there is still a gear grind, as soon as it works as intended, there will be a grind from entry level bolster, to Partisan, to Conqueror.

 

Also, I did not want to advocate a certain solution in this post at all. I just wanted to point out that when talking about gear gap, you should also talk about augments, a main and often overlooked factor regarding the old gear gap.

Agreed Augments are an important factor to consider. But I think you can understand why people barely in their 50s don't have enough money, or motivation, to augment a blue set they will replace with a week or 2 of PVP right? So you cannot expect every entry level PVPer to augment their Recruit gear. Also giving away empty augment slots wouldn't solve this. The augments themselves already are too expensive for people who are just starting the credit grind (something that is horrible if all you do is PVP anyway).

 

Bolster streamlines the experience of entry level PVPers. And you need to have new people coming in to PVP to ensure PVP in a game doesn't, eventually, revolve around a 'circle jerk' of the same PVPers over and over until it dies out because of natural attrition because of other factors than how good the PVP is (like, ya know, Exams, marriages, deaths, out of money, whatever).

 

Entry level free giveaway gear is not as streamlined as a well implemented Bolster system is. Anyone who claims that is just too much in hate of the current implementation of Bolster to even think straight about the subject.

[Polymerize]

The major difference is that each new Recruit set eventually invalidates the other side of the coin: PVE gear progression, on a certain level.

When Bioware was forced to give away Tionese because fresh 50s were only using the Recruit gear, this was basicly accepting their mistake and just giving equal gear to Recruit in PVE manner as well. Had they continued to increase this, they would have removed entry level gear grinding from PVE entirely.

 

They clearly decided this was something they still want entry level grind for PVE, but don't want for PVP, where the playing field needs to be more equal. Bolster to 49 did that before as well for all level ranges (levels being more a PVE thing than a PVP thing anyway) and now this new system does that at entry level endgame PVP as well.

 

And there is still a gear grind, as soon as it works as intended, there will be a grind from entry level bolster, to Partisan, to Conqueror.

 

 

Agreed Augments are an important factor to consider. But I think you can understand why people barely in their 50s don't have enough money, or motivation, to augment a blue set they will replace with a week or 2 of PVP right? So you cannot expect every entry level PVPer to augment their Recruit gear. Also giving away empty augment slots wouldn't solve this. The augments themselves already are too expensive for people who are just starting the credit grind (something that is horrible if all you do is PVP anyway).

 

Bolster streamlines the experience of entry level PVPers. And you need to have new people coming in to PVP to ensure PVP in a game doesn't, eventually, revolve around a 'circle jerk' of the same PVPers over and over until it dies out because of natural attrition because of other factors than how good the PVP is (like, ya know, Exams, marriages, deaths, out of money, whatever).

 

Entry level free giveaway gear is not as streamlined as a well implemented Bolster system is. Anyone who claims that is just too much in hate of the current implementation of Bolster to even think straight about the subject.

 

Well said.

[Arutar]

Entry level free giveaway gear is not as streamlined as a well implemented Bolster system is.

 

No disagreement here. We now only have to wait for such a system - maybe after this patch?

[AlrikFassbauer]

Bolster streamlines the experience of entry level PVPers. And you need to have new people coming in to PVP to ensure PVP in a game doesn't, eventually, revolve around a 'circle jerk' of the same PVPers over and over until it dies out because of natural attrition because of other factors than how good the PVP is (like, ya know, Exams, marriages, deaths, out of money, whatever)..

 

I agree very much to this part.

 

It would result in a closed group just running around in "closed circles" and no-one letting in.

Or, letting in Newbies as long as they can be easily beaten.