A Summary of Increased Repair Cost Problems (for BW/EA)

[mothear]

This thread seems to keep changing in focus.

 

snip .........

If something is broken, then any sort of argument about "stop complaining, and grind dailies" is vapid at best. We need to point out to the devs that something is not working as intended and needs looking into. If you disagree then something is ultimately wrong with your perception of how things should work.

 

If this change is working as intended then their patch notes were not accurate and need to be updated. In which case I'd probably like to know the underlying reasoning behind the decision that repair costs were too low and needed to be raised by such a large increment.

 

Once that happens, depending on the outcome the debate can resume. If it is a bug, and it gets fixed then hooray. The people complaining were correct. If the patch notes were inaccurate we can resume the debate about gating content with repair costs.

I agree with much of this but in the same way that those that are saying 'stop complaining' should desist so should those demanding a roll back, or to revert to pre-1.7 repair costs. We can discuss this issue more accurately once we know what the issue actually is.

[Nicolettexiv]

What's there to look into? WAI or not, lots of people are unhappy. In the end, unless you reduce costs you're going to leave a lot of people upset.

 

Look at Blizzard and D3. There was a point they increased repair costs to a point a lot of people got upset. Was it a bug? No. What did Blizzard do? The lowered the repair costs.

 

Hate to say it, but there's very little to debate here.

 

WoW is much more difficult to generate high levels of currency, unless you're a crafter and have epic, BiS or 2nd BiS items to sell. The currency/inflation/economy is different. Consider the percentages, of course 20 gold seems less expensive than 1,000-5,000 credits, but you can also earn 8000+ credits in a single quest in SWTOR, while wow might reward 1-2 gold. WoW also tried to list items competitively in the AH. SWTOR players list items for under vendor price on the GTN. Because they often don't care/don't need the extra credits.

[Nicolettexiv]

you're late sir, me and my guild already canceled our subscription.

 

Maybe if you fix 50/100 bugs in this game, maybe we will sub again.

 

|

|

\/

[DiabloPL]

Alright so my Juggy DPS with only 17830 health that can deal 1360 DPS (Vengeance Spec) and is in full BH (Implants & Earpeices + PvP Relics), all but the belt and bracers, is not worthy enough of being in group finder?

 

Never heard about people with full black hole dps set and 17.8k hp.

 

In theory this could be possible if u place augments with no strenght and endurance like power and defense but putting tanking augments into dps set is so bad i hope we never meet in one group.

[FOnazi]

It's the first indicator of a person's gear, spec, etc. All level fifties have the opportunity to start out in Tionese gear. If they haven't made that attempt, either A) are not aware, or B) would rather someone else carry them. As a Tank and Healer, gear is the first thing I look for while grouping in a pug. For a tank, it's exponentially worse in group environments due to us being the meat shields.

 

With the current cost of repairs, if I see one person in greens or blues, I'll notify them why I'm leaving. It's extremely harsh to take that approach, but I won't fund someone else's learning curve until this issue is rectified. This is part of the problem with the current state of the game.

 

I can see your point of going into a flashpoint, seeing a tank wearing greens and leaving. I get that, I have done that regardless of repair bills.

 

My question is that HP isn't everything, like I said, my juggy doesn't even have 18K HP in BH gear and some of it is augmented. My campaign geared Sniper barely touches 20K, my Shadow tank in BH/Campaign gear and one peice of Rakata hits 22256 for the most part augmented

[Ratajack]

This thread seems to keep changing in focus.

 

Now the debate seems to be "MMOs should require x amount of work for y amount of fun, if you can't accept it don't play."

 

I would point out that Ratajack contradicted his own argument at one point by pointing out that raids and flashpoints could be considered work as well.

 

The work/fun debate is entirely in the eye of the beholder, if you don't mind doing dailies then bully for you. I absolutely despise them, for reasons I've already given in a post that seems to have been mostly ignored.

 

As to the primary motivation for doing content, that's an ancillary argument. I don't care if people are motivated by gear or by social interaction, or by enjoyment of the content therein. (I'm inclined to agree that on some level, the loot rewards are always a motivating factor, I'd certainly like to have something to show for the time I spend doing the content.)

 

The heart of the issue for me will still continue to be that repair costs should not be used as a gating mechanism for content. I could argue that Bioware already seemed to agree with this, since way back in 1.2 they decided that prohibitively expensive repair costs were not in the best interest of the game.

 

As for the argument that you need to have some slog to make the fun more enjoyable... That's a bit of a paper tiger.

 

Nor is it really germane to what the actual issue is with this "fix."

 

With nothing but the patch notes to go off of, it's reasonable to experience a 33-50% increase in repair costs. People are purportedly experiencing repair costs increases from 100% to 400%. That screams to me that something is not working properly and needs to be fixed.

 

If something is broken, then any sort of argument about "stop complaining, and grind dailies" is vapid at best. We need to point out to the devs that something is not working as intended and needs looking into. If you disagree then something is ultimately wrong with your perception of how things should work.

 

If this change is working as intended then their patch notes were not accurate and need to be updated. In which case I'd probably like to know the underlying reasoning behind the decision that repair costs were too low and needed to be raised by such a large increment.

 

Once that happens, depending on the outcome the debate can resume. If it is a bug, and it gets fixed then hooray. The people complaining were correct. If the patch notes were inaccurate we can resume the debate about gating content with repair costs.

 

I did not contradict myself. If you want to think I did, knock yourself out.

 

What I was doing was pointing out that you might consider the FP's or OP's the "fun" stuff and the dailies are the "work" that you refuse to do because it isn't fun for you. Others, though, might think the "fun" stuff is running around in the latest OP's gear and the "work" is the endless runs it takes to get that gear.

 

If you feel you should not have to do the things you consider "work" in order to do the things you consider "fun", then why should you expect anyone else to do what they consider "work" to be able to do what they consider "fun"?

 

As to your second point, I agree that if something is broken then it needs to be fixed, whether or not people find it beneficial. If fixing the previous bug regarding repair costs broke something else, as it appears it did, then that new bug needs to found and fixed. It appears that the new bug is that repair costs are currently calculated using the cost of the shell in addition the cost of the item modifications. This needs to be corrected. If correcting this bug reduces the current repair costs, but not to the rates they were prior to 1.7, then so be it. I'll adjust, maybe do a few more dailies, maybe sell a few more mats on the GTN.

[Angry_Ferth]

Exactly. They reduced repair costs when they introduced legacy, because legacy brought in huge credit sinks for the population that had wealth over 1-2 million. With the introduction of the Cartel market, $10 can buy most of the legacy unlocks, bypassing that particular credit sink. Moreover, players selling cartel packs are making a killing. So there's more money being generated, without an appropriate sink to keep the game economy and inflation under control. They discussed this in the Guild Summit. They track these things, and adjust them as needed.

 

Now that players are generating so much more revenue, with dailies, cartel items, etc., the credit sink was deemed necessary. This being the justification beyond that the reduction was bugged and not accounting for the quality of mods.

 

...

 

So, with my dailies on one character (approx 400-500k credits, I enjoy working for currency, and seeing my balance reach over several million..) and selling three Rakata implants (daily commendations - sold for approx. 160k each) and selling the mods (4 enhancements, 16k-18k each), I am more than covered.

 

There is a logical fallacy in the argument that repair costs need to be increased in order to overcome the potential income from dailies, and it's present in your post at the bottom there.

 

The monetary rewards from dailies via vendor trash and quest rewards (400k-500k as you say.) is essentially money that you basically are creating out of nothing. It is money that is being added to the game per character per day. And quite frankly it is a ridiculous amount.

 

Claiming that they need to increase repair costs to counter this is not the correct approach. At this point repair costs don't function as a money sink, they function as motivation to do dailies.

 

If people are forced to do dailies to counteract the repair costs then money isn't effectively being removed from the game, because players are just creating more money in order for it to be destroyed.

 

Apparently the notion of reducing monetary rewards from dailies will be an unpopular one, but in reality it's the most effective way to counteract the ridiculous inflation games like this experience.

 

As long as it's easier to create money from nothing than to earn money through trading with other players then inflation will be rampant and hard to control. Raising repair costs won't remove money from the game, it will just force more people to create more money to accommodate the repair costs.

[Nicolettexiv]

I'll say this. I'm in full DG gear with full augments. pre-patch it was 7k for a wipe. Now it's 10k. I do think that is a bit much. 7k felt right.

 

How about that?

 

And how much money do you make in a TFB comms run?

 

Maybe they should reduce the repair costs, seeing as it's so devastating.

Instead of using that as a credit sink, maybe they should just reduce quest reward credits. So many people here hate doing them anyway. Their idea of "fun" appears not to involve dailies, so if they just want to run FPs and Ops, reduce the credit rewards.

 

Chances are, if THAT happens, they'll get upset that nothing is worth doing because they don't "get anything" from it. They do not understand the necessity of balancing the economy with credit sinks, nor the risks of removing sinks and just handing over all of the credits. Yes, you'll hurt if you don't try to earn credits. That's how MMOs work.

[Renata_Roselli]

Lol, a lot of QQing in here. People complaining about wiping in Flashpoints because of new players? Seriously? You can 2 man every Flashpoint in this game. You can 3 DPS, 1 Heal HM LI or 2 DPS, 2 Heal it. If one little person is causing you to wipe in a HM FP because they are brand new to it then you need to re-roll your class and move on. Obviously you can't carry someone if you are wiping. Edited February 16, 2013 by Renata_Roselli

[BJWyler]

lol.. the bearing on the real world is the $15 monthly sub and time invested in this game. So when the game ceases to be fun and entertaining the smart thing to do is to leave and find a better use of your time and money.

 

From a business point of view it IS stupid to persist with something that costs you customers.

 

Correct, but there are necessary evils in the world no matter how you look at them. If the overall game ceases to be fun for someone because they have to pay more for something, then there probably wasn't a whole lot left that they were having fun to begin with, to me anyway.

 

Again, methods need to be in game to keep the economy balanced otherwise the same situation will arrive regardless - people will be QQing about the economy and demanding BW fix it or they will leave. Since, as mentioned and proven numerous times, it is easy to be swimming in credits in this game (heck I have well over a million combined on all my toons just by playing normally, grinding not necessary), repair costs and mod extract costs are the fairest way to ensure everyone is "taxed" to keep the economy healthy.

 

BJ

Edited February 16, 2013 by BJWyler

[Pirana]

I can see your point of going into a flashpoint, seeing a tank wearing greens and leaving. I get that, I have done that regardless of repair bills.

 

My question is that HP isn't everything, like I said, my juggy doesn't even have 18K HP in BH gear and some of it is augmented. My campaign geared Sniper barely touches 20K, my Shadow tank in BH/Campaign gear and one peice of Rakata hits 22256 for the most part augmented

 

I agree, it's not everything, skill and knowing the fights are just as important. But the person's HP is the red flag. At that point, I examine. In the past, I would have never done that unless it was an Operation.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Pirana

[antiheroxi]

I think we can agree that most people would prefer to do more of the "fun" stuff as opposed to working. However, the world, and MMO's do not work that way. Both require work, often tedious, boring work that provides no challenge, in order to be able to do the "fun" stuff.

 

Some people find leveling their 9th alt to be tedious and boring, since they have done all the quests previously, but they want to play that sniper in the endgame raids, so they buckle down and do the work to get that sniper to 50 and then gear him up. That's as much "work" for them as doing a few dailies one day to be able to afford to run that raid another day might be for someone else.

 

Before you say that the player leveling up his 9th alt has a definite goal, or purpose to work toward(having that new 50 to take to raids), so does anyone wanting to be able to afford the higher repair costs(being able to afford the higher repair costs).

 

Rata i don't even know how you got so incredibly turned around on this....

 

First your right real life you do have to work to enjoy things. but guess what i am compensated for that with money in which i can invest in things that are fun. So i take that compensation and invest it in a game... that should be enjoyable....

 

But to enforce the requirement for me to pay the money i have already worked for to work hard at a tediously dull dailies again just to have a moment of fun is rediculous. in this case im paying a company to put me to work. thats so backwards its rediculous.

 

yes i hate grinding lvls, but at the end i have achieved max and am able from that point on to enjoy myself... or thats how it was. now i put myself through 50 lvls to what? continue to pay someone to put me to work. well enjoy that. i have a fiancee, a full time job and college. the few hours i had to sit down and veg in this game are now gone so why should i or those like me stay?

 

Not even wow is so ridiculous. from day 1 in that game at least the players are given 2.5 avenues to max lvl (pvp is only a half since the xp from it is so small but solo or dungeon finder) and then given many ways to aquire money and again chose to raid, dungeon crawl, pvp etc. dailies arent required.

 

eq2 dailies arent required. once done with the grind to max you can again pvp, raid, dungeon crawl.

 

rift same as the two above.

 

in fact besides some asian based mmo's like aion, lineage 2, etc i know of very few popular modern mmo's that are a required non stop grind exceeding the time spent doing what you love in the game...

[antiheroxi]

And how much money do you make in a TFB comms run?

 

Maybe they should reduce the repair costs, seeing as it's so devastating.

Instead of using that as a credit sink, maybe they should just reduce quest reward credits. So many people here hate doing them anyway. Their idea of "fun" appears not to involve dailies, so if they just want to run FPs and Ops, reduce the credit rewards.

 

Chances are, if THAT happens, they'll get upset that nothing is worth doing because they don't "get anything" from it. They do not understand the necessity of balancing the economy with credit sinks, nor the risks of removing sinks and just handing over all of the credits. Yes, you'll hurt if you don't try to earn credits. That's how MMOs work.

 

or just make gear BoP.. then youre required to do things for that gear... or that shell... oh wait you are required to do the raids to get the gear...

[Hard_Head]

It's simply a credit sink. They don't want you buying cartel ***** off the GTN, they want you buying cartel coins from them for US currency. Repair costs are out of control, plain and simple. I like this game, and enjoy playing it. Having said that, reduce the F*CKING REPAIR COSTS!

[grombrinda]

As to people making to much money from gtn from cartel packs..I blame that solely on EA/Bio's footstep. That's what happens when you don't put much thought into something.

Basically, they made it legal to buy currency, provided you use their methods of course. Possible solutions?? Maybe make some of the cartel items obtainable in game but at a comparable level as on gtn. I dunno..just a thought. ^^

[AggiePunbot]

Lol, a lot of QQing in here. People complaining about wiping in Flashpoints because of new players? Seriously? You can 2 man every Flashpoint in this game. You can 3 DPS, 1 Heal HM LI or 2 DPS, 2 Heal it. If one little person is causing you to wipe in a HM FP because they are brand new to it then you need to re-roll your class and move on. Obviously you can't carry someone if you are wiping.

 

You can 2-man Lost Island? And Terror From Beyond? Please post a Let's Play showing me how you do just that, i would love to see it!

[Angry_Ferth]

It's simply a credit sink. They don't want you buying cartel ***** off the GTN, they want you buying cartel coins from them for US currency. Repair costs are out of control, plain and simple. I like this game, and enjoy playing it. Having said that, reduce the F*CKING REPAIR COSTS!

 

If they really didn't want people buying cartel unlocks off the GTN they wouldn't allow cartel market items to be sold on the gtn.

 

If this really is meant to be more of credit sink than anything else then the motivation would actually be to increase the value of credits, to lower the cost of items, to allow preferred and f2p players to be able to afford buying more unlocks from the GTN. Because, ultimately, it doesn't matter who the end user is for a cartel market unlock, it just matters that people buy them.

 

If that IS the case, and this is meant to be a money sink, then they are doing it wrong.

[Jeweledleah]

I think we can agree that most people would prefer to do more of the "fun" stuff as opposed to working. However, the world, and MMO's do not work that way. Both require work, often tedious, boring work that provides no challenge, in order to be able to do the "fun" stuff.

 

Some people find leveling their 9th alt to be tedious and boring, since they have done all the quests previously, but they want to play that sniper in the endgame raids, so they buckle down and do the work to get that sniper to 50 and then gear him up. That's as much "work" for them as doing a few dailies one day to be able to afford to run that raid another day might be for someone else.

 

Before you say that the player leveling up his 9th alt has a definite goal, or purpose to work toward(having that new 50 to take to raids), so does anyone wanting to be able to afford the higher repair costs(being able to afford the higher repair costs).

 

actually - the world and MMO's DO work that way. at least in real world - this is a continuous goal to achieve. MMOs? are virtual worlds. they don't HAVE to work by the rules of real world. they don't have to create pointless work in order to be good. again, challenge vs tedium. tedium is bad. paying to engage in tedium is bad.

 

someone else said further down that if someone stops playing because they are forced to do dailies - it means they weren't having fun anymore. they couldn't be more wrong.

 

if someone has limited time and is forced to use that time on dailies INSTEAD of doing stuff they actually enjoy, because they cannot afford to do stuff they enjoy anymore? they leave because stuff they found fun just became inaccessible to them. for no good reason.

[Ratajack]

actually - the world and MMO's DO work that way. at least in real world - this is a continuous goal to achieve. MMOs? are virtual worlds. they don't HAVE to work by the rules of real world. they don't have to create pointless work in order to be good. again, challenge vs tedium. tedium is bad. paying to engage in tedium is bad.

 

someone else said further down that if someone stops playing because they are forced to do dailies - it means they weren't having fun anymore. they couldn't be more wrong.

 

if someone has limited time and is forced to use that time on dailies INSTEAD of doing stuff they actually enjoy, because they cannot afford to do stuff they enjoy anymore? they leave because stuff they found fun just became inaccessible to them. for no good reason.

 

Is it possible for an MMO to have NO aspect to it that someone might consider tedious, boring or provides no challenge? Yes, but then in all likelihood it wouldn't be a true MMO. It would be an online world in which everyone was handed everything they wanted without having to "work" or put forth any effort in order to obtain it.

 

I've heard the "limited time" excuse for refusing to put forth any effort so many times now from the entitled crowd it seems to be becoming a mantra for them. As stated before, I myself have very limited time to play, probably less than most of the people using the "limited time" excuse. The difference between us is that I am actually willing to put forth some effort and earn a few extra credits during some of my limited time. Since I am actually willing to put forth some effort, I do not find myself in the position the entitled crowd does, that of having to make excuses for laziness.

[AshlaBoga]

You can 2-man Lost Island? And Terror From Beyond? Please post a Let's Play showing me how you do just that, i would love to see it!

 

Here's a 2 man of all the bosses in HM LI.

Yes companions were used, 2 manning without companions would be insanely tough.

 

EDIT: There's apparently an entire thread of 2 mans of HM LI some of them as early as August 2012:eek:

 

Here's the link: HM LI 2 man thread

Edited February 17, 2013 by AshlaBoga

[tdgesq]

Is it possible for an MMO to have NO aspect to it that someone might consider tedious, boring or provides no challenge? Yes, but then in all likelihood it wouldn't be a true MMO. It would be an online world in which everyone was handed everything they wanted without having to "work" or put forth any effort in order to obtain it.

 

I've heard the "limited time" excuse for refusing to put forth any effort so many times now from the entitled crowd it seems to be becoming a mantra for them. As stated before, I myself have very limited time to play, probably less than most of the people using the "limited time" excuse. The difference between us is that I am actually willing to put forth some effort and earn a few extra credits during some of my limited time. Since I am actually willing to put forth some effort, I do not find myself in the position the entitled crowd does, that of having to make excuses for laziness.

 

Of course prior to the change it still involved work and effort, didn't it. Do you enjoy grinding for yet more credits to play the the same content?

[antiheroxi]

Is it possible for an MMO to have NO aspect to it that someone might consider tedious, boring or provides no challenge? Yes, but then in all likelihood it wouldn't be a true MMO. It would be an online world in which everyone was handed everything they wanted without having to "work" or put forth any effort in order to obtain it.

 

I've heard the "limited time" excuse for refusing to put forth any effort so many times now from the entitled crowd it seems to be becoming a mantra for them. As stated before, I myself have very limited time to play, probably less than most of the people using the "limited time" excuse. The difference between us is that I am actually willing to put forth some effort and earn a few extra credits during some of my limited time. Since I am actually willing to put forth some effort, I do not find myself in the position the entitled crowd does, that of having to make excuses for laziness.

 

And we have see your worthless sentiment many times as well. believe it or not you have a vastly inexcusible ignorant view of what an entitled crowd is. Those asking for something for absolutely nothing in exchange yes you are right. But that is not what those are.. youre pathetically ill excused manors and hidiously assinine assumption towards other paying customers is a joke at best.

 

I pay to play a game that entertains me. im not asking for that game to be free, or a hand out. im a paying and valid customer no different then you.

 

I am also willing to work through content to get to the gear i want. also not asking for it to just be handed to me for logging in. but this is because i enjoy the crawl through dungeons. its entertaining to me and so its worth my EARNED money to spend on the game to work through those dungeons.

 

I am not willing to pay my EARNED money towards tediously dull and boring dailies that i do not find entertaining just to work through content i actually enjoy. i already did the work to do that (ie my real life job) and the grind through lvls to get there.

 

again not one part of my money to play the game was entitled... i work for a living

not one part of my lvling process was given.... i did the time

not one part of the push through regular, hm, nm etc was given to me.... i put the time in for it

 

but guess what all of that was fun and enjoyable. and not one bit was given or entitled.... The difference between you and me is i value my life, my time, and my money... meaning if i am spending money, and time on something then i want a positive return on it... ie enjoyable entertainment. thats not asking for handouts thats a given... in no other industry on the planet (except for maybe college) do we pay money and time to work. and yet you somehow find your pathetic attempt to call hard working people that pay their money and do the time to get to the content lazy for wanting to actually continue to enjoy what they paid for... rediuclous

[Ratajack]

Of course prior to the change it still involved work and effort, didn't it. Do you enjoy grinding for yet more credits to play the the same content?

 

Do I enjoy it? No, but neither do I refuse to do it, unlike some others. That is the difference.

[antiheroxi]

Do I enjoy it? No, but neither do I refuse to do it, unlike some others. That is the difference.

 

that is the difference. you are willing to just accept the slap in face each and every time you farm for more credits for the same content and keep paying. this doesnt make you better then anyone just more subservient to the system. for some reason or another you take pride in the fact you are being forced to pay the same amount for the ever more boredom through grinds to do the same task. Youre the same crowd that would take a pay cut and just tough it out.

 

and yes theres no difference. this is the same as saying hey we think there was an error in the amount we have been giving you to work for us. we have corrected the error and adjusted your pay hence from 15 an hour that youve been at youll now earn 10 an hour. thankyou and have a nice day. and you just take it...

 

the rest of us see that cut as inexcusible and are looking for a new job (game) to fit with our requirements to keep working...

[Palar]

Is it possible for an MMO to have NO aspect to it that someone might consider tedious, boring or provides no challenge? Yes, but then in all likelihood it wouldn't be a true MMO. It would be an online world in which everyone was handed everything they wanted without having to "work" or put forth any effort in order to obtain it.

 

You're mistaking busy-work for actual challenges.