How to balance the classes?

[UGLYMRJ]

Again, this is something I said as a comment on another thread and now I want to know other opinions and I'm curious if anyone can sway my opinion on this just a little even. I normally stay open minded but I stand behind this to the fullest.

 

BALANCE SHOULD BE CREATED AROUND THE FULL POTENTIAL OF A CLASS, NOT THE AVERAGE STATISTICS OF AVERAGE PLAYERS.

 

Here's my thoughts on it.

 

You simply can't create balance on average performance... it will do nothing but create a further imbalance.

 

To simplify it as much as possible, if they were to balance based on maximum performance capable of the class it then becomes the players fault for not not meeting that potential.

 

Balancing it on performance by average players... which on average are below average... creates a never ending tweaking based on FOTM's performance. For example... say there was a class that was far tougher to play than any other class. (none are very difficult in this game IMO). With the theory of balancing around average performance in regular war zones, that difficult to play class would be buffed to meet over all numbers that the other classes are producing BECAUSE MOST PLAYERS WOULD UNDER PERFORM WITH IT.

 

So, what would you think happens when that class gets in the hands of a competent player?

Edited January 30, 2013 by UGLYMRJ

[JustinxDuff]

I agree as long as the disparity between what a class can do when in the hands of a average player vs a "pro" player is small.

[Darth-Hellion]

completely see what you mean, i'm not good at pvp, so i dont know whats really OP, but this really makes sense

[Carter_Mathis]

I agree as long as the disparity between what a class can do when in the hands of a average player vs a "pro" player is small.

 

The disparity tends to be a bit better knowledge of their own class, combined with a whole lot better knowledge of every other class, spec, and how to counter them.

Also, I think Sentinel was a pretty decent example of buffing for the average player. They were somewhat challenging to play, and most people sucked, so they got buffed like crazy and are deadly in the hands of a very good player. Also I've heard arguments that they should be the top dps class (along with gunslingers) because all of their trees are dps, and that argument would only be valid if they did not the potential to heal (meh) or possessed defensive cooldowns that are better than any tank (kinda a big deal)

[TalonKorr]

This is taken from the 1.4 Update Announcement Page, and I feel it's rather pertinent.

 

As a result of these Resolve changes, unorganized teams will no longer pay huge penalties for overlapping control effects at critical moments. For example, it can frustrate players when pickup groups accidentally make a Marauder immune to Control because two or more teammates tried to stun him at once. The resulting unstoppable wrecking ball that the attacker transforms into made for a pretty poor experience for players trying to escape him. Additionally, we don’t like it when a Huttball ball carrier gets “fed” full Resolve by a disorganized pickup group trying to stop him from scoring by simultaneously landing multiple Control effects.

 

In my opinion, this reflects the design mentality of PvP on the whole at the moment. The catering to "Unorganized Teams" is a root problem in PvP. It seems that if you read any thread about PvP rotations on any of the class forums anymore, or this forum for that matter, if the class has a stun, it's in the rotation. And since stuns have such a short cooldown in this game, it's a totally viable way to go.

 

I PvP every day, and the atrophy of the average player's ability to think in PvP has become more and more apparent. The average player doesn't even know what a "whitebar" is. When they see it, they still go to stun you, or knock you back, or lift, because these effects work %80 of the time normally, why think? PvP should require thought, should require strategy. People shouldn't have free reign to just use every form of CC imaginable cause the penalties are so limited. There should be a fear of detriment to the team when using that stun at the right moment. People should see that resolve bar and ask themselves if their stun will help or hinder the team.

 

I play a PvP Tank Guardian, and I have the luxury of being extremely durable. I know I'll live long enough to actually receive a full whitebar. However, on my sentinel (who isn't smash, TYVM) the question of whether or not I'll live long enough isn't a certainty. Generally I expect to die once I've been stunned at the %50 health mark or lower, because I'll never regain control of my character in time to do anything. Or conversely, I'll leap in and be so consecutively Bubble Stunned that I'll never have had control of my character in the first place.

 

My point is, while their intentions of not penalizing the "unorganized teams" by removing linear additions of resolve, they've penalized everyone at this point.

 

The greatest issue at this moment is the resolve system. It glaringly obfuscates any other mechanical issues in PvP (even including Force Sweep/Smash) by blanketing all players in continuous CC. My point is until that issue is cleared up, we can't really talk about balance.

[CharterMonkKent]

Again, this is something I said as a comment on another thread and now I want to know other opinions and I'm curious if anyone can sway my opinion on this just a little even. I normally stay open minded but I stand behind this to the fullest.

 

BALANCE SHOULD BE CREATED AROUND THE FULL POTENTIAL OF A CLASS, NOT THE AVERAGE STATISTICS OF AVERAGE PLAYERS.

 

Here's my thoughts on it.

 

You simply can't create balance on average performance... it will do nothing but create a further imbalance.

 

To simplify it as much as possible, if they were to balance based on maximum performance capable of the class it then becomes the players fault for not not meeting that potential.

 

Balancing it on performance by average players... which on average are below average... creates a never ending tweaking based on FOTM's performance. For example... say there was a class that was far tougher to play than any other class. (none are very difficult in this game IMO). With the theory of balancing around average performance in regular war zones, that difficult to play class would be buffed to meet over all numbers that the other classes are producing BECAUSE MOST PLAYERS WOULD UNDER PERFORM WITH IT.

 

So, what would you think happens when that class gets in the hands of a competent player?

 

I agree.

 

Also, skills should be balanced for pve separate from pvp.

 

It's complicated.

[UGLYMRJ]

Completely agree with you on the resolve changes and it does reflect on the state of mind of the developers. I've been against every move they've made to dumb down the game to cater to casual game play and that was by far the most annoying.

 

I found this quote the most entertaining.

 

"For example, it can frustrate players when pickup groups accidentally make a Marauder immune to Control because two or more teammates tried to stun him at once"

 

Because I find it frustrating when players aren't punished for poor coordination.

[Washingtoon]

Ideally it should be balanced around the full potential of a class but it doesnt work in an enviroment where the skill gap between a good and average player is wider than the ocean. Now, MMO'es are a bit special since they revolve around distinct classes but if we ignore that for a sec and compare it to for instance a class based shooter I'd say that the balance in shooters is far better. Main reason, shooters generally don't have 15 year old gamers mixed with 55 year old lore fans. The diversity in MMO is reality and something devs need to take into consideration.

 

That said, and if we ignore teams where strats and communication come into play, I'd say that balance in swtor already revolves around what the best players can do with their classes and that is a problem since the good players only make up a smalll percentage of the population. Is it really reasonable to balance the classes aaround these players when there's no game mechanic for differentiating and seperating good and average players? And is it reasonable to have one or two extremely easy to play and OP classes in an enviroment where 95 % of the population never will reach, or even come close to, the the full potential of the remaining six AC'es? That by itself is forcing players to pick certaqin AC'es. And tell me, how frustrating isnt it, as an above average player, to lose games (again, in a system where you constantly are getting teamed up with/against players far below your level) just because you happened to get four commandos while the other team got four maras? You, as a decent player and regardless of what class you are on, might not have a problem with those maras (I have on occassion dueled three crappy maras and walked away) but a player the same skill as those maras and on a far inferior class will get destroyed.

 

Edit: Read the following post and realized that I should probably add that I don't necessarily mean that the skill requirement should be lowered, in an attempt to cater to average players. What I mean is that it's unreasonable to have a few AC'es with such a low requirement for high performance that even an average player can shine on it at the same time as other AC'es are unplayable to them. A skilled player will be able to play more or less any class to it's full potential so those are never a problem. For a skilled player it's more about how balanced the class as a whole is.....and a few AC'es are currently lacking.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Washingtoon

[ArchangelLBC]

I agree, and not even because I think bad players should be punished for not coordinating.

 

The problem is that when you balance to the average the top 5% are going to run away with things. The resolve change is the best example. By balancing towards the average it meant that very good coordinated teams became even more powerful because they COULD coordinate and what it led to was ultimately more and longer stuns.

 

They didn't realize that what is frustrating and not fun is losing control of your character, and the longer you lose control the more unfun it is (I'd say the amount of unfun-ness grows exponentially as the time you are stunned goes up). They saw that teams of coordinated players could stun lock you for a decent amount of time and teams of uncoordinated players just white barred people. Instead of lessening stuns overall length (balancing based on the top) they instead made overlapping stuns not up resolve (balancing to the average) and as such the top 10% players just got EVEN BETTER CC.

 

Start doing this with class balance and making a class perform well by anyone who touches it will very likely make that class overpowered in the hands of top 10% players and will increase the extent to which they roll over their less skilled brethren.

 

TL;DR I agree. Balancing towards the average just exacerbates the problem.

 

What they DO need to do is balance classes based on top potential performance in live play. Gunnery Commando potential damage is theoretically very good, but this doesn't bear out in live play because getting that damage out is next to impossible against top competition because the spec is easy to shut down, and lacks the tools to keep itself from being countered. If you tell me that that's a bad example because gunnery isn't a PVP spec, that's fine, but Assault honestly isn't any better in top tier play.

[Technohic]

I don't think you can pinpoint who the top is and balance from there. It's sort of like a moving target when you have games where the player is allowed to be creative with classes and builds. how do you know that one player is better than the other and it is not just because the builds they have, or if it just happens that one ting feels natural to one, but less intuitive to another?

 

I think ideally, you balance so when the best are playing each other, it is balanced; and at the same time, when the worst are playing each other it is balanced; but it is not like saying it should be this way is going to magically make it happen. It is tough to make even just the ceilings match up let alone also have the floor about even and there will always be people who are unhappy because people do not like to think that they are not as good as someone else. At the same time, just because you are destroying people, doesn't mean you are really that good for the same reason. Lord knows that there are times where I feel dominate, but know I left a ton on the table. maybe my class carried me or maybe the other players are just awful. How do I know?

[Gerbanator]

I agree that you cannot balance the classes well from the perspective of lower tier players.

 

Starcraft 2 is in a constant state of rebalancing (changes are getting very small now) and they balance off the best of the best. If you are a lower tier player in SC2 you can win or lose by a huge misclick, mistake, expansion error, scouting, or other nuances of the game (what makes it fun and makes one a better player).

 

However, this game is a bit different than SC2 in the fact that it is not 1v1. It is 8v8 which causes a lot more chaos in a controlled wz. There are factors such as taunts, buffs, debuffs, damage mitigation/reduction, cooldowns (one may be fighting someone who has all their cooldowns while they do not) that people do not account for. There are way too many scenarios to attempt to perfectly recreate an actual wz scenario to balance this game. Now, adding in the fact that some players are not as good as others, adds a new dimension to the balancing.

 

Along with this, we have composition. 8 AC's, 8 spots, 8 opponents, 5 wzs...

 

2560 wz matches to balance.

 

 

TLDR: Balancing should only be done using the top tier players for competitive play. The whining stems from misclicks, speed, nuances of the game (i.e. THE BASICS)

 

Personal note:

I play Lethality DPS Operative and I feel like my damage is fine. Poor ,poor Mercs though... they do have it rough.

[lordkhouri]

It seems to me that the real problem is quite simply this: So many people that play this game are just terrible and don't know how to play! They'll complain about almost any class because what they're actually encountering is a good player with some skill. But there could still be some balancing.

 

On thaT note:

1-Concealment Ops need better/easier energy management.

2- a. Mercs need to either be able to cast certain abilities while moving or make an instant cast of an ability proc off something. Say every tracer missile has a 25% chance to make the next one instant.

b. Merc heals could get a buff to their aoe, maybe critical chance or overall heal from it.

3- Smash damage should be dropped by 30% and force critical damage should be buffed by 20% to increase the importance of critical hits on force scream, choke and crush.

4- Sorc bubbles (3 second stun) should give more resolve. 3 bubble stuns is not full resolve, which is 9 seconds of stuns but hidden strike + debilitate is full resolve and its only 5.5 seconds of stuns.

5- Assassin Hybrid tanks might still do a little too much damage too easily while still providing much utility, but rather than nerf them, I'd say find a way to buff Jugg and PT tanks damage.

 

Classes that are fine as is:

PT dps

Op heals

Sin dps

Marauders

Snipers

[iPvP]

ive only seen a couple good mercs, i know when mercs get buffed that those few players are gonna demolish and stand out over other mercs

[UGLYMRJ]

ive only seen a couple good mercs, i know when mercs get buffed that those few players are gonna demolish and stand out over other mercs

 

LOL Raidur will kill people's deeps on his mercs all day... looking forward to that being viable. Dude is a freak of nature tho.

[iPvP]

LOL Raidur will kill people's deeps on his mercs all day... looking forward to that being viable. Dude is a freak of nature tho.

 

yea dude him and mister-pink are crrraazy

[funkiestj]

Completely agree with you on the resolve changes and it does reflect on the state of mind of the developers. I've been against every move they've made to dumb down the game to cater to casual game play and that was by far the most annoying.

 

I found this quote the most entertaining.

 

"For example, it can frustrate players when pickup groups accidentally make a Marauder immune to Control because two or more teammates tried to stun him at once"

 

Because I find it frustrating when players aren't punished for poor coordination.

TANGENT: Your statement above is inaccurate. Players still are punished for uncoordinated play (they have put their stun on CD with nothing to show for it), they are simply punished less severely.

 

If we are going to mix real PUGs with premades who play together regularly and are on voice chat (I do not advocate segregating these groups) then the quoted change is a positive one.

 

With the current system strong groups coordinate their stuns for the same reason they coordinate their taunts -- overlapping stuns (and taunts) are wasteful and not coordinating makes your team weaker (i.e. lack of coordination is still punished). A reduction in punishment for lack of coordination does not equal no punishment.

 

ON TOPIC: I agree with OP whole heartedly. What the lower ends of skill need are good match making (fewer curb-stomps, more reasonably close games) not having the game balanced around them instead of the 95% percentile.

Edited January 30, 2013 by funkiestj

[tekhiun]

I partially agree with you. It is true that if they balance classes to below average players , indeed we will have OP classes on the hands of skilled players and thus the start of FOTMS . However as you stated the majority of players fall in the average/below average tier, thus it makes no sense to direct development to a small section of the player base. Furthermore the devs also have to think about making the game accessible to everyone thus the ridiculously easy to play classes and specs that we see on several games including this one. In my opinion the solution is not to balance classes looking at experienced players performances, but keep using the average with the addition of re balancing the game constantly. Thus FOTMS would become FOTWs at most.

 

TL:DR IT is impossible to have a game that is fully balanced and delivers gameplay dversity, the solution is to have regular class tweaks in order to avoid FOTMS

[Briggs_Knightly]

Quote:

As a result of these Resolve changes, unorganized teams will no longer pay huge penalties for overlapping control effects at critical moments. For example, it can frustrate players when pickup groups accidentally make a Marauder immune to Control because two or more teammates tried to stun him at once. The resulting unstoppable wrecking ball that the attacker transforms into made for a pretty poor experience for players trying to escape him. Additionally, we don’t like it when a Huttball ball carrier gets “fed” full Resolve by a disorganized pickup group trying to stop him from scoring by simultaneously landing multiple Control effects.

 

This is taken from the 1.4 Update Announcement Page, and I feel it's rather pertinent.

 

I am not sure how it works anymore because I have not read up on the changes but:

 

The actual resolve gained SHOULD be based on the time and affect that is on your character.

It should not be based on what other people throw at you.

It does not matter to me if I was hit with a stun or a mez.

If I can not move of perform any actions, It is the same to me.

 

So if you are stunned for 3 seconds you should build 3z amount of resolve. If you are hit with a 6 second mez and take its full effect, You should get 6z amount of resolve. If however, You are hit with a 6 second mez and it is popped after 3 seconds, You should only get 3z amount of resolve.

 

The amount of resolve gained for a 6 second slow should be 6v, 6w or 6x depending on how drastic the slow was. Say 30% is v, 50% is w, 70% is x and a root would be y. Those variables should add to your resolve on a per second basis at the rate of the slow that impacted you. If you cleans or purge the slow, you should only get the resolve that you suffered through.

 

A knockback, knockdown or unfriendly pull should have a 1 time charge applied instantly. The short KB that was available from Rocket Punch should only build about as much as like 2 seconds worth of a 30% slow or 2v. The medium KB like Jet Boost should build 2w. The long KB like the warriors push and all knockdowns should build 2x. All unfriendly pulls should build 2y.

 

For multiple actions you should gain resolve for the worst restriction you have. Say you were hit with a 6 second 30% slow and after 2 seconds with a 3 second stun. You should suffer 2 seconds of 30% slow, then 3 seconds of stun and then finish the last 1 second of 30% slow. So you should gain 2v + 3z + 1v of resolve.

 

If you are hit with a medium KB that has a 2 second root attached to it, You should get 2w + 2y.

 

If you are hit with a 3 second stun and after 2 seconds are hit with another 3 second stun, You should be stunned for 5 seconds and get 5z resolve. You will, of course, use your break as soon as you hit full resolve still like a good player should.

 

A full resolve bar should matter more than it does now. Either make full resolve more effective by making it last longer or by having it limit affects. Say double the time white bar is currently active and make anything greater than 50% white bar give immunity but anything between 50% white bar and 0% makes effects last shorter. So at 40% white resolve bar you can still be stunned but the duration is effectively cut by 80%. At 25% white bar, any affect you get would be reduced by half.

 

Accumulated resolve should also wear off at a slower rate than it does now. Or at least wear of at a variable rate like the higher resolve you have the quicker is diminishes. So at almost full resolve, your accumulated resolve diminishes at the current rate. But at half accumulated resolve it diminishes at half the current rate. That way you rapidly lose almost full resolve but keep at least some of the accumulated resolve for quite some time.

 

Of course the resolve accumulated would be higher based on the variables above so v < w < x < y < z.

It also can not make lag worse or it doesn't matter.

 

Then lower ttk a bit and send me some Jim Beam and it may work out???

[Jiminison]

I agree as long as the disparity between what a class can do when in the hands of a average player vs a "pro" player is small.

 

So just put a bebuff on good players as soon as the system recognizes player x wins to much they get their damage gimped by 50%, there balanced.

 

We all have to be able to accept some people are better than us guys come on please be rational.

[NoTomorrow]

I agree, and not even because I think bad players should be punished for not coordinating.

 

The problem is that when you balance to the average the top 5% are going to run away with things. The resolve change is the best example. By balancing towards the average it meant that very good coordinated teams became even more powerful because they COULD coordinate and what it led to was ultimately more and longer stuns.

 

They didn't realize that what is frustrating and not fun is losing control of your character, and the longer you lose control the more unfun it is (I'd say the amount of unfun-ness grows exponentially as the time you are stunned goes up). They saw that teams of coordinated players could stun lock you for a decent amount of time and teams of uncoordinated players just white barred people. Instead of lessening stuns overall length (balancing based on the top) they instead made overlapping stuns not up resolve (balancing to the average) and as such the top 10% players just got EVEN BETTER CC.

 

Start doing this with class balance and making a class perform well by anyone who touches it will very likely make that class overpowered in the hands of top 10% players and will increase the extent to which they roll over their less skilled brethren.

 

TL;DR I agree. Balancing towards the average just exacerbates the problem.

 

What they DO need to do is balance classes based on top potential performance in live play. Gunnery Commando potential damage is theoretically very good, but this doesn't bear out in live play because getting that damage out is next to impossible against top competition because the spec is easy to shut down, and lacks the tools to keep itself from being countered. If you tell me that that's a bad example because gunnery isn't a PVP spec, that's fine, but Assault honestly isn't any better in top tier play.

 

The problem is, that the new 1.4 system can be exploited in a way it was not intended, Before you could stun ince. And the second stun sent him into full resolve. With the target having cc breaker available, that meant that at most a person could be stunned for 4 seconds only. Now you can effectively overlap CC to get 900 resolve, which leads to much longer CC total downtime.

 

They should make this overlapping rule only take effect for 1s after first stun. After that it adds full resolve value.

Edited January 31, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Paulman]

TANGENT: Your statement above is inaccurate. Players still are punished for uncoordinated play (they have put their stun on CD with nothing to show for it), they are simply punished less severely.

 

If we are going to mix real PUGs with premades who play together regularly and are on voice chat (I do not advocate segregating these groups) then the quoted change is a positive one.

 

With the current system strong groups coordinate their stuns for the same reason they coordinate their taunts -- overlapping stuns (and taunts) are wasteful and not coordinating makes your team weaker (i.e. lack of coordination is still punished). A reduction in punishment for lack of coordination does not equal no punishment.

 

ON TOPIC: I agree with OP whole heartedly. What the lower ends of skill need are good match making (fewer curb-stomps, more reasonably close games) not having the game balanced around them instead of the 95% percentile.

 

IMO they should change resolve so that it accumulates as you are stunned or mezzed instead of each ability adding a specific amount. For bubble stun, it should be reverted back to a mez.