Is it time we apologise?

[justiceface]

I get th bus everyday. I pay £93 a month for this. I have plenty of issues with it, i hate it when its late or when its full of screaming children ect but every time i get off i still say thank you to the bus driver. This is not being spineless, its called having manners and being respectful.

 

The bus driver isn't responsible for children crying, the bus driver isn't responsible for traffic and the bus driver didn't plan his route. What we're talking about is being critical when we have an issue with a product, service, whatever and the developers of this game(not the coding peons and admins, which is what your bus driver when it comes to quality of service) are responsible for the quality of this product.

[firestarter]

snip.......... and being respectful.

 

Except that respect is being earned and not given away for free.

Edited January 11, 2013 by firestarter

[Ighten]

In addition to that, the lack of communication with the community from Bioware is depressing.

.

 

Sadly in todays viral market place I suspect this will be the way more and more dev teams go.. GW2 is just the same.. No communication policy until they want to talk..

 

Its the only real way now you can control whats being said and make sure a uniform policy is being adhered too.. The days of free chat from devs on forums will disappear vbecause sadly there are too many people loitering about waiting to jump on every word and disect it until it says the opposite of its intention ..

[NemainSWE]

When I compare EA's other MMO TSW to that of SWTOR I see such a difference in attitude from the staff from Funcom in comparison to Bioware. They listen to customers, and are quick in response to deal with any issue whatsoever. Bugged out boss? No problem, less than a minute they have came and reset him. I wish EA would give Funcom this game.

 

Funcom has always had good GM support. But their games tend to be really buggy at launch.

I stopped playing Age of Conan because of their nasty ability to fix one thing and break something else in the process.

 

That being said, TSW was wonderful and innovative, it really did away with classes (not roles) completely (and it worked!) and I really liked the 7 active, 7 passive ability system as opposed to the 20+ abilities of SWTOR.

 

If Funcom had the budget that SWTOR had, and BioWare wrote the story to a new mmo, I'd try to marry that game.

[TUXs]

I wouldn't apologize to a cook if he delivered my meal one item at a time. My "thanks" is my continuing subscription. When Bioware's own employees begin to treat their customers with the respect they deserve, then you'll see me praise them. Nothing people say here is personal - it's simply consumer feedback.

[Fornix]

I wouldn't apologize to a cook if he delivered my meal one item at a time.

 

I'd find it rather awkward if the waiter delivered me the appetizer, main course, dessert and all beverages at the same time .

Edited January 11, 2013 by Fornix

[TUXs]

I'd find it rather awkward if the waiter delivered me the appetizer, main course, dessert and all beverages at the same time .

 

Not exactly what I meant

[LogicalPremise]

I think there's a critical disconnect on several levels between people 'happy' with the game and people 'unhappy' with the game. This sort of disconnect is usual and hardly surprising. I often eat lunch at a local restaurant I happen to love. The prices are good, the food is great, and the serving staff are friendly. My friend ate there a few times and hates it. He doesn't particularly care for most of the food, feels the prices are far too high, and had an ugly altercation with two of the waitstaff.

 

As a result, he and I have very different views on the same business. He says I'm willing to put up with mediocre food and bad service, when I only feel I'm getting great food and great service. To me, his points are unreasonable and probably based on his own personal issues. To him, I'm too willing to endure poor service simply because I like a place.

 

And this, really, is what we have here. For those of us who are unhappy and who have gone F2P/Preferred, the fact that some people think the game and Bioware's handling of the game is great means absolutely nothing. I am very happy that some people are enjoying the game and think that Bioware is doing a great job. I'm happy you can feel that the game is worth the money you pay, and people who bash others for simply liking the game are not being reasonable.

 

However, hyperbolic exaggeration goes both ways. To imply, somehow, that the loss of consumers and EA choosing to lay off people is somehow the fault of unhappy customers who should apologize goes beyond asinine, and beyond personally insulting, to outright malice. You are basically stating that anyone who has disagreed with the company and complained must be doing it for invalid reasons, and that it was done based on false pretenses.

 

There are lists of promises made by BW Developers in regards to this game that were not taken up. There were things said that have not been followed up with. There were issues with PVP, with bugs, with crafting, with the GTN, with APOC servers, with Harbinger server, with SGR, with issues with companions, and the like that have not and quite frankly probably will not be addressed.

 

The central argument here seems to be that customers 'owe' Bioware something. We do not. Bioware is a business, and SWTOR is a product. If you are happy with the product then you can show your support by buying additional Cartel packs. That is more concrete 'support' than empty and pointless threads regarding respect and "apologies".

 

When it comes to respect, I have always believed respect must be a two way street. Certain of the actions undertaken by Bioware have not been very respectful to the community. The 'graphical delay issue' thread where Bioware basically said everyone having graphics delay simply had bad cards or didn't clean their computers was not respectful. The way the APOC community has been sidelined is not respectful. I don't have any reason to feel respect towards an entity that does not respect me.

 

For those of you who feel frustrated that some of us do not like the game as much as you -- learn to live with it. You are the first ones to suggest our opinions do not speak for everyone -- neither do yours. Please stop arrogating the presumption that since you are 'supportive' that such action is a good thing. Providing support to a flawed process leads only to the flawed process continuing.

 

I still like the restaurant, but I've introduced several of my friends to it and they all had the same reaction that my other friend did. I do not assume that they are simply all immature trolls, I assume that, indeed, I am being unreasonably attached to food I like and overlooking flaws. I certainly am not going to complain at my friends for not being able to appreciate the majesty of the restaurant , and neither should you.

[-IceHawk-]

Snip.

I was going to post, but I think everything was just covered.

 

/thread

[TUXs]

I still like the restaurant, but I've introduced several of my friends to it and they all had the same reaction that my other friend did. I do not assume that they are simply all immature trolls, I assume that, indeed, I am being unreasonably attached to food I like and overlooking flaws. I certainly am not going to complain at my friends for not being able to appreciate the majesty of the restaurant , and neither should you.

That is a PERFECT summary!!!

[J__H]

Apologies should only be given to those who deserve them.

[psandak]

Apologize? Really? What kind of beta crap is this? You PAY for this product and aren't happy with it, so you have the right to complain. The people that work on this game get PAID to do it. They aren't a charity. I'd say that almost all the criticism of this game is deserved, as shown by the number of people that cancelled their subscriptions and the FTP conversion so early. If a company can't make a good MMO, which is readily apparent here, DON'T MAKE IT. Apologizing to a company for their own incompetence is just as bad as liking a company page on Facebook.

 

With regards to employee happiness, I think it's pretty safe to say that most people are miserable at work to begin with. That's why it's called work and not play. Why do you think so many people play the lotto? They don't want to work.

 

If you honestly expect anything to change because of your beta gesture, LOL at you. They already have your money and will happily take more.

 

While I agree we have the right to complain, we do not have the right to berate, denigrate, insult, and slander. The problem with the overwhelming majority of the complaints is that they are overly emotionally driven - someone finds something they do not like, they come to these forums and immediately start ranting about how the whole game sucks because of the one minor glitch that upset them.

 

I happen to not be one of these individuals because I learned years ago that clicking send/post when you are angry is a bad way to get your point across (I was nearly fired from my job because I clicked send in a moment of anger). If more people took the time to calm down before clicking send/post, I guarantee there would be far fewer complaints, and those complaints would be far more constructive.

 

In short: NO

 

We pay them our hard earned cash so we have every right to remain critical, shout scream and make some noise. If they want your money then they also have to listen to you.

 

Wrong. The phrase "the customer is always right," is idiotic. 99.99999999% of the time the customer has no idea what he/she is talking about and does not really know what he/she really wants. Listening to what the customer wants has more often than not caused companies to go out of business not allowed them to thrive.

 

The perfect example of this is Apple. Apple does not have any market analysis. Over the last decade, Apple has effectively told the population, "we do not care what you think you want. We will give you want we think you want." And consumers keep on buying anything and everything Apple puts on the market.

 

In addition to that, the lack of communication with the community from Bioware is depressing.

 

Have you EVER worked for a large corporation? I have. Do you know how many large corporations actively respond to customer requests on a regular basis? I will tell you...NONE. Companies take customer feedback, 95% goes into the circular file (AKA the trash), and the rest is accepted and dealt with behind the scenes. And only when they are READY does the company announce changes.

 

BioWare is no different than any other large corporation. Just because they have a forum site does not mean they HAVE to respond to every request, complaint, or rant that's posted. They have employees who read what's posted, 95% is ignored, and the rest is accepted and dealt with behind the scenes. And when they are ready to announce bug fixes and new features they do so.

[YeIIow]

I think there's a critical disconnect on several levels between people 'happy' with the game and people 'unhappy' with the game. This sort of disconnect is usual and hardly surprising. I often eat lunch at a local restaurant I happen to love. The prices are good, the food is great, and the serving staff are friendly. My friend ate there a few times and hates it. He doesn't particularly care for most of the food, feels the prices are far too high, and had an ugly altercation with two of the waitstaff.

 

As a result, he and I have very different views on the same business. He says I'm willing to put up with mediocre food and bad service, when I only feel I'm getting great food and great service. To me, his points are unreasonable and probably based on his own personal issues. To him, I'm too willing to endure poor service simply because I like a place.

 

And this, really, is what we have here. For those of us who are unhappy and who have gone F2P/Preferred, the fact that some people think the game and Bioware's handling of the game is great means absolutely nothing. I am very happy that some people are enjoying the game and think that Bioware is doing a great job. I'm happy you can feel that the game is worth the money you pay, and people who bash others for simply liking the game are not being reasonable.

 

However, hyperbolic exaggeration goes both ways. To imply, somehow, that the loss of consumers and EA choosing to lay off people is somehow the fault of unhappy customers who should apologize goes beyond asinine, and beyond personally insulting, to outright malice. You are basically stating that anyone who has disagreed with the company and complained must be doing it for invalid reasons, and that it was done based on false pretenses.

 

There are lists of promises made by BW Developers in regards to this game that were not taken up. There were things said that have not been followed up with. There were issues with PVP, with bugs, with crafting, with the GTN, with APOC servers, with Harbinger server, with SGR, with issues with companions, and the like that have not and quite frankly probably will not be addressed.

 

The central argument here seems to be that customers 'owe' Bioware something. We do not. Bioware is a business, and SWTOR is a product. If you are happy with the product then you can show your support by buying additional Cartel packs. That is more concrete 'support' than empty and pointless threads regarding respect and "apologies".

 

When it comes to respect, I have always believed respect must be a two way street. Certain of the actions undertaken by Bioware have not been very respectful to the community. The 'graphical delay issue' thread where Bioware basically said everyone having graphics delay simply had bad cards or didn't clean their computers was not respectful. The way the APOC community has been sidelined is not respectful. I don't have any reason to feel respect towards an entity that does not respect me.

 

For those of you who feel frustrated that some of us do not like the game as much as you -- learn to live with it. You are the first ones to suggest our opinions do not speak for everyone -- neither do yours. Please stop arrogating the presumption that since you are 'supportive' that such action is a good thing. Providing support to a flawed process leads only to the flawed process continuing.

 

I still like the restaurant, but I've introduced several of my friends to it and they all had the same reaction that my other friend did. I do not assume that they are simply all immature trolls, I assume that, indeed, I am being unreasonably attached to food I like and overlooking flaws. I certainly am not going to complain at my friends for not being able to appreciate the majesty of the restaurant , and neither should you.

 

master peice! very well said.

[BobaScott]

I could be 100% extra wrong, but I think some of the communication and service issues may stem somewhat from Mass Effect 3.

 

They didn't expect the blood bath from users over the ending (which was horrible, but the reaction was over the top). This appeared to send them into turtle mode with communication as anytime they tried to say anything it was destroyed by irate users. Add to the issues ME3 had with bugs in game and with the new (for them) multiplayer packs. People would pay for packs and get nothing but lose the in game currency(like CCs, forgot what it was called).

 

BW became silent and unhelpful with issues, at least from my viewpoint. This seems to have followed here as well.

[V-Serp]

Have you EVER worked for a large corporation? I have. Do you know how many large corporations actively respond to customer requests on a regular basis? I will tell you...NONE. Companies take customer feedback, 95% goes into the circular file (AKA the trash), and the rest is accepted and dealt with behind the scenes. And only when they are READY does the company announce changes.

 

BioWare is no different than any other large corporation. Just because they have a forum site does not mean they HAVE to respond to every request, complaint, or rant that's posted. They have employees who read what's posted, 95% is ignored, and the rest is accepted and dealt with behind the scenes. And when they are ready to announce bug fixes and new features they do so.

 

If that company wants to stay in business it will. These things turn pretty quickly. RIMM bungled away their entire company by just ignoring everyone. EA is another great example of a former gem that decided it was above the customer in a customer service industry. THQ went so far off it's bankrupt.

 

If you're going to ignore your user base you better be the full market leader and have a virtual monopoly, with high barriers of entry to prevent a huge market loss via alternatives.

 

The entertainment industry is not one of those areas where you can do so. Apple's stock incidentally has massively collapsed the past few months with no end in sight of the bloodletting.

[ImperialHippy]

You are basically stating that anyone who has disagreed with the company and complained must be doing it for invalid reasons, and that it was done based on false pretenses.

 

No actually I did say that most is done out of the best intentions. My issue was with the handling of the complaints not the complaints themselves.

 

The central argument here seems to be that customers 'owe' Bioware something.

 

Again sorry but this is not what I meant. Even if you feel you owe them nothing you can at least be civil. Constructive criticism is great, hurling abuse and complaining in the heat of anger is another

 

I certainly am not going to complain at my friends for not being able to appreciate the majesty of the restaurant , and neither should you.

 

Yes but you might feel a little annoyed if your friends took to picketing you favorite restaurant waving banners that said the food sucked and insulting teh staff. You might also be disappointed if the chefs then decided they've had enough and walk out leaving your restaurant to turn into something even you dont want to be apart of.

 

So keep on picking flaws with the game, moaning that it should be better and getting annoyed when your ticket is not answered (as just happened to me) or their isn't another feedback. Just be smart about, making a big fuss aint gonna help anyone, and if you dont want to help, if you just dont like the game, then stop playing, dont try and ruin it fro the rest of us.

[Heroen]

When I compare EA's other MMO TSW to that of SWTOR I see such a difference in attitude from the staff from Funcom in comparison to Bioware. They listen to customers, and are quick in response to deal with any issue whatsoever. Bugged out boss? No problem, less than a minute they have came and reset him. I wish EA would give Funcom this game.

 

No way in hell would I continue playing this game if they gave it to Funcom. I played Age of Conan for 4 years and I played it very hardcore. In all its flaws it was a awsome game but I have never seen a company with more issues then Funcom, there game is the laggiest buggiest and most non supported ( by that I mean supported by devs) game Ive ever played wich in the end made me quit AoC for good because I couldnt bear seeing what that company did to the game. There entire mentality is just no good for MMOs so please dont ever do some dumb **** like that o.O

[Larity]

There is a reason the bioware staff doesn't communicate with the fans.

 

"They are certainly a group of passionate folks, and while I wouldn't say they were all "utterly gross" as you put it I do agree that the overall tone of the forums has become increasingly toxic," he wrote. "I tend to largely avoid them these days, myself. Why? Because spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative- not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general." David Gaider

 

Thats a quote one of the Bioware staff has made about the bioware forums.

 

And its true.

[darklordpotter]

The reasons for that are complex and at least partially related to the community team on ME3 - if you ever want lessons on how not to talk to consumers for a training session look at Chris Priestly's (The CM) posts. People (including me) complain about the C&P on here but at least they don't intentionally insult people.

 

Sadly none of that makes what you said in any way wrong though.

Edited January 11, 2013 by darklordpotter

[-IceHawk-]

There is a reason the bioware staff doesn't communicate with the fans.

 

"They are certainly a group of passionate folks, and while I wouldn't say they were all "utterly gross" as you put it I do agree that the overall tone of the forums has become increasingly toxic," he wrote. "I tend to largely avoid them these days, myself. Why? Because spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative- not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general." David Gaider

 

Thats a quote one of the Bioware staff has made about the bioware forums.

 

And its true.

 

Strangely enough multiple Bioware forums, from SW:TOR to Mass Effect and Dragon Age all had similar problems.

 

I assume it must be Bioware just has bad luck with fans...

 

I cannot think of anything it else it could be, honest!

[errant_knight]

I think its time we take a look in the mirror. Over the last year we, the vocal community of fans, have thrown some pretty nasty complaints, insults and even slander at the Bioware staff. While some may have come from the best intentions, simply wanting them to improve features of fix mistakes, I believe it has had the opposite effect.

 

There has been a lot of speculation around the web at the large lay-off's at Bioware this past year and we've been quick to blame EA and the (perceived) failure of SWTOR as some of the reasons but what if its us thats really to blame? What if, in our tantrums, we actually caused the people who have given us such great games over the years to pack it in. If I were a developer I would certainly feel dismayed and disheartened when you try and give your fans what they want only to get in thrown back in your face. I think we owed them more than that and it sadness me that we couldn't trust them enough to steer this game, and their company, in forever improving directions. Sure there are always going to be bugs and rough patches but didn't we owe it to them to support them as they tried to figure these things out?

 

Maybe thats the problem with the MMO genere, due to the high price we have to pay we naturally grow a sense of entitlement. Shame if this proves detrimental to the game itself.

 

Well no matter if im a minority on this one, for what its worth, I apologise. Hopefully there is still enough passionate developers left at Bioware to see this game through. I for one am hopping this does grow into that "forever RPG" that Daniel Erickson had imagined before he walked away.

 

Just my opinions anyways, take them or leave them.

 

Agreed. This is a remarkably unpleasant, entitled and IMPATIENT group of people. It's a damn shame that all they get is grief for producing something so fantastic. Suggestions for improvement are all very good, but the anger and resentment is ridiculous, unnecessary and just plain wrong. To the dev team, past and present, thank you for the many hours of gameplay and the many friends I've made!

Edited January 11, 2013 by errant_knight

[Karyth]

I wholeheartedly agree with the original post. People complain too much on the forum, if I was a developer I would be discouraged by the responses I've read. Bioware has done a great job with this game, while it may not be perfect, it is a work in progress. What people need to remember is that this game just hit one year. The game is being constantly added onto with new items, flashpoints, ops, bug fixes as they are reported (which from what I've seen people tend to prefer to moan and groan on the forums than make an actually constructive bug report and wonder why the game still has bugs), and even more cool stuff is yet to come. So to Bioware I say thank you for this game that we have all waited for years for, and apologies for all the whiny trolls on the forums, don't be discouraged by them, your fans want you to keep up the great work.

[jorill]

When I compare EA's other MMO TSW to that of SWTOR I see such a difference in attitude from the staff from Funcom in comparison to Bioware. They listen to customers, and are quick in response to deal with any issue whatsoever. Bugged out boss? No problem, less than a minute they have came and reset him. I wish EA would give Funcom this game.

 

EA doesnt own TSW they just distributed it

[V-Serp]

There is a reason the bioware staff doesn't communicate with the fans.

 

"They are certainly a group of passionate folks, and while I wouldn't say they were all "utterly gross" as you put it I do agree that the overall tone of the forums has become increasingly toxic," he wrote. "I tend to largely avoid them these days, myself. Why? Because spending too much time there starts to make me feel negative- not just about the games we make, but about myself and life in general." David Gaider

 

Thats a quote one of the Bioware staff has made about the bioware forums.

 

And its true.

 

He'd probably prefer not even making a game, just people handing him money for doing nothing. Maybe he should go get a government job.

[jorill]

Some of your customers are always going to be *****s with any product. They believe everything should be given to them or it should be done their way even if their way is stupid or not realistic. To be honest devs shouldnt read the forums anyways. Its not their job to. That is what the community team is for. They should filter what is there and give any relevant info to the devs such as bugs, improvement suggestions, Exploits or things they generally are not happy with.