Is it time we apologise?

[ImperialHippy]

I think its time we take a look in the mirror. Over the last year we, the vocal community of fans, have thrown some pretty nasty complaints, insults and even slander at the Bioware staff. While some may have come from the best intentions, simply wanting them to improve features of fix mistakes, I believe it has had the opposite effect.

 

There has been a lot of speculation around the web at the large lay-off's at Bioware this past year and we've been quick to blame EA and the (perceived) failure of SWTOR as some of the reasons but what if its us thats really to blame? What if, in our tantrums, we actually caused the people who have given us such great games over the years to pack it in. If I were a developer I would certainly feel dismayed and disheartened when you try and give your fans what they want only to get in thrown back in your face. I think we owed them more than that and it sadness me that we couldn't trust them enough to steer this game, and their company, in forever improving directions. Sure there are always going to be bugs and rough patches but didn't we owe it to them to support them as they tried to figure these things out?

 

Maybe thats the problem with the MMO genere, due to the high price we have to pay we naturally grow a sense of entitlement. Shame if this proves detrimental to the game itself.

 

Well no matter if im a minority on this one, for what its worth, I apologise. Hopefully there is still enough passionate developers left at Bioware to see this game through. I for one am hopping this does grow into that "forever RPG" that Daniel Erickson had imagined before he walked away.

 

Just my opinions anyways, take them or leave them.

[DiabloDoom]

When I compare EA's other MMO TSW to that of SWTOR I see such a difference in attitude from the staff from Funcom in comparison to Bioware. They listen to customers, and are quick in response to deal with any issue whatsoever. Bugged out boss? No problem, less than a minute they have came and reset him. I wish EA would give Funcom this game.

[Mara_Zyras]

I totally agree with this, i think if i were in their position the ammount of complaints from so many different things would extremely de-motivate me to want to put 110% into my work, people need to learn to cut them some slack and be appreciative of what things we have already.

 

I think swtor is headed in the right direction at this moment in time, i made a thread thanking them for a great patch recently and got 5k views and 110 replies in about 6 hours with people complaining that im saying thank you and labelling me a troll for doing so... I only come to these forums to check up on new info but all i see constant moaning about petty things.

 

think about it, if you were in a job were you worked hard everyday and were possibly under staffed and had a heavy work load, yet every time you implement your new work you got complaints, would you want to put as much effort in?

 

Just my opinion as the OP said so respect that lol.

[Llama-Eight]

When I compare EA's other MMO TSW to that of SWTOR I see such a difference in attitude from the staff from Funcom in comparison to Bioware. They listen to customers, and are quick in response to deal with any issue whatsoever. Bugged out boss? No problem, less than a minute they have came and reset him. I wish EA would give Funcom this game.

In addition to that, the lack of communication with the community from Bioware is depressing.

 

i think if i were in their position the ammount of complaints from so many different things would extremely de-motivate me to want to put 110% into my work, people need to learn to cut them some slack and be appreciative of what things we have already.

You assume that the devs spend much time reading the forums (I'd be surprised if they didn't spend some time on here) & I also don't think they put much stock in some of the verbal diarrhea & over-dramatic hyperbole we see on here.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Llama-Eight

[sandisrd]

Hi,

 

Well in every game there is room for improvements, so TOR is more then enjoyable at this stage!...

 

Thank you BW!...

 

Best regards!.

 

''You make your first steps in a larger world''

[weapon_x]

Apologize? Really? What kind of beta crap is this? You PAY for this product and aren't happy with it, so you have the right to complain. The people that work on this game get PAID to do it. They aren't a charity. I'd say that almost all the criticism of this game is deserved, as shown by the number of people that cancelled their subscriptions and the FTP conversion so early. If a company can't make a good MMO, which is readily apparent here, DON'T MAKE IT. Apologizing to a company for their own incompetence is just as bad as liking a company page on Facebook.

 

With regards to employee happiness, I think it's pretty safe to say that most people are miserable at work to begin with. That's why it's called work and not play. Why do you think so many people play the lotto? They don't want to work.

 

If you honestly expect anything to change because of your beta gesture, LOL at you. They already have your money and will happily take more.

Edited January 11, 2013 by weapon_x

[Shai-Huluud]

I think its a nice sentiment but for me, the total lack of ongoing dialogue with the developers is such a huge problem that I would struggle to agree with you.

 

If the developers had ongoing conversations perhaps each made a single thread their "baby" for a week and spent maybe 15 minutes a day on it I suspect they would get a huge amount of goodwill and indeed useful feedback from players.

 

I've seen the dialogue method used in more than one game and its always positive.

[Tumedus]

Forum hate had little, if anything, to do with the roughly 75% of people who bought the game and quit before the first year was out. That is why people were layed off. It's that simple.

 

And we don't "owe" them anything. They didn't make this game as a favor to us. They made this game to make money off of us. That's the relationship.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Tumedus

[AsheraII]

I think these forums would benefit tremendously if at least some of the more obvious trolls got a perma-ban. Just creating a topic with the word "TORtanic" in the title is a dead give away if you ask me. There's a noticable difference between disagreeing, being critical and trolling. And the trolling types hardly even bother hiding in the grey shades between those things.

[Fornix]

I think these forums would benefit tremendously if at least some of the more obvious trolls got a perma-ban. Just creating a topic with the word "TORtanic" in the title is a dead give away if you ask me. There's a noticable difference between disagreeing, being critical and trolling. And the trolling types hardly even bother hiding in the grey shades between those things.

 

I agree, EA is by far one of the most lenient major gaming companies when it comes to handing out permanent bans or even banning at all of such things unfortunately. But a few permanent bans to several of the bigger trolls most definitely would get no objection from me.

[sstanks]

When I compare EA's other MMO TSW to that of SWTOR I see such a difference in attitude from the staff from Funcom in comparison to Bioware. They listen to customers, and are quick in response to deal with any issue whatsoever. Bugged out boss? No problem, less than a minute they have came and reset him. I wish EA would give Funcom this game.

 

TSW isn't a EA MMO

[Mara_Zyras]

Apologize? Really? What kind of beta crap is this? You PAY for this product and aren't happy with it, so you have the right to complain. The people that work on this game get PAID to do it. They aren't a charity. I'd say that almost all the criticism of this game is deserved, as shown by the number of people that cancelled their subscriptions and the FTP conversion so early. If a company can't make a good MMO, which is readily apparent here, DON'T MAKE IT. Apologizing to a company for their own incompetence is just as bad as liking a company page on Facebook.

 

I think it's pretty safe to say that most people are miserable at work to begin with. Why do you think so many people play the lotto?

 

If you honestly expect anything to change because of your beta gesture, LOL at you. They already have your money and will happily take more.

 

You might pay for it, but it isn't a huge bill monthly and i just think you should show some appreciation that's all.

 

And to be honest with you, most people who work in the gaming industry are working there out of having a passion for games its not just a job you apply for and take it, there is a lot of study involved.

 

All I say is have some gratitude.

[NummSaul]

I think its time we take a look in the mirror. Over the last year we, the vocal community of fans, have thrown some pretty nasty complaints, insults and even slander at the Bioware staff. While some may have come from the best intentions, simply wanting them to improve features of fix mistakes, I believe it has had the opposite effect.

 

There has been a lot of speculation around the web at the large lay-off's at Bioware this past year and we've been quick to blame EA and the (perceived) failure of SWTOR as some of the reasons but what if its us thats really to blame? What if, in our tantrums, we actually caused the people who have given us such great games over the years to pack it in. If I were a developer I would certainly feel dismayed and disheartened when you try and give your fans what they want only to get in thrown back in your face. I think we owed them more than that and it sadness me that we couldn't trust them enough to steer this game, and their company, in forever improving directions. Sure there are always going to be bugs and rough patches but didn't we owe it to them to support them as they tried to figure these things out?

 

Maybe thats the problem with the MMO genere, due to the high price we have to pay we naturally grow a sense of entitlement. Shame if this proves detrimental to the game itself.

 

Well no matter if im a minority on this one, for what its worth, I apologise. Hopefully there is still enough passionate developers left at Bioware to see this game through. I for one am hopping this does grow into that "forever RPG" that Daniel Erickson had imagined before he walked away.

 

Just my opinions anyways, take them or leave them.

 

Most people are mad at the developers because they did not deliver what they promised from the start.

Yes things can change and always will change before and after a game's release but the amount of content that wasn't included or even cut from the game/beta ticked alot of people off.

I love the game but i can understand why people are mad they did not get alot of the things they wanted in the game. is this EA's fault? or bioware's? it does not matter, they did not deliver what was promised.

Wouldn't you be mad/ feel cheated if you get promise after promise, about something you like but it never comes?

 

Like i said before, i love this game but it's not that hard too understand why people are so harsh on the develepors.

Edited January 11, 2013 by NummSaul

[ImperialHippy]

 

And to be honest with you, most people who work in the gaming industry are working there out of having a passion for games its not just a job you apply for and take it, there is a lot of study involved.

 

 

Indeed. I for one would prefer to have people making my games who do it because they are passionate and really enjoy it. If developers hate their job, and get insulted when they try and do something good, dont be surprised when bad games get made. And, of course, these people dont need to be in these jobs, not the top level developers anyway, as has been proven recently they do have the option to walk away, get another job or start a new company.

[DataBeaver]

When I compare EA's other MMO TSW to that of SWTOR I see such a difference in attitude from the staff from Funcom in comparison to Bioware. They listen to customers, and are quick in response to deal with any issue whatsoever. Bugged out boss? No problem, less than a minute they have came and reset him. I wish EA would give Funcom this game.

I take it you haven't played Funcom's other big MMORPG, Anarchy Online. They've had a graphics engine rewrite project going on for six years. During that time they've gone through three different engines and made countless promises of it being out in half a year, none of which they've kept. There's been an equally big rebalancing project going on for nearly the same amount of time, with similar broken promises. This inability to make and keep schedules was one of the reasons why I left that game after playing it for five years.

 

At least on the forums, it's equally hard to get dev responses from Funcom as from Bioware. Ingame, you generally had to wait several hours for a GM to contact you in AO. Even when there were no other tickets in the queue before you. I haven't encountered any serious issues in SW:TOR yet that would have necessitated immediate GM intervention, so I can't compare to Bioware customer service here.

[smexymage]

I think its time we take a look in the mirror. Over the last year we, the vocal community of fans, have thrown some pretty nasty complaints, insults and even slander at the Bioware staff. While some may have come from the best intentions, simply wanting them to improve features of fix mistakes, I believe it has had the opposite effect.

 

There has been a lot of speculation around the web at the large lay-off's at Bioware this past year and we've been quick to blame EA and the (perceived) failure of SWTOR as some of the reasons but what if its us thats really to blame? What if, in our tantrums, we actually caused the people who have given us such great games over the years to pack it in. If I were a developer I would certainly feel dismayed and disheartened when you try and give your fans what they want only to get in thrown back in your face. I think we owed them more than that and it sadness me that we couldn't trust them enough to steer this game, and their company, in forever improving directions. Sure there are always going to be bugs and rough patches but didn't we owe it to them to support them as they tried to figure these things out?

 

Maybe thats the problem with the MMO genere, due to the high price we have to pay we naturally grow a sense of entitlement. Shame if this proves detrimental to the game itself.

 

Well no matter if im a minority on this one, for what its worth, I apologise. Hopefully there is still enough passionate developers left at Bioware to see this game through. I for one am hopping this does grow into that "forever RPG" that Daniel Erickson had imagined before he walked away.

 

Just my opinions anyways, take them or leave them.

 

In short: NO

 

We pay them our hard earned cash so we have every right to remain critical, shout scream and make some noise. If they want your money then they also have to listen to you.

[DataBeaver]

And we don't "owe" them anything. They didn't make this game as a favor to us. They made this game to make money off of us. That's the relationship.

And as long as players continue to have this attitude, there won't be true interaction between them and developers. Even if we don't owe them anything, the developers don't deserve the kind of slandering that is rampant on these forums either.

[ImperialHippy]

Most people are mad at the developers because they did not deliver what they promised from the start.

Yes things can change and always will change before and after a game's release but the amount of content that wasn't included or even cut from the game/beta ticked alot of people off.

I love the game but i can understand why people are mad they did not get alot of the things they wanted in the game. is this EA's fault? or bioware's? it does not matter, they did not deliver what was promised.

Wouldn't you be mad/ feel cheated if you get promise after promise, about something you like but it never comes?

 

Like i said before, i love this game but it's not that hard too understand why people are so harsh on the develepors.

 

I do agree with you. In fact this is why i used the word 'we' not 'the haters' because although i wasn't vocal i did feel like this. But at the end of the day a promise by a PR campaign should be taken with a grain of salt. Can we really be mad because we were promised the world and were nieve enough to expect perfection?

 

I honestly believe this game could achieve the vision that these promisses eluded too (if not what we dreamt for it) but in order for that to happen i think we need to be a little more grown up with our feedback. This community could really help the game if people were constructive with their criticism or it could run the game into the ground. Up to us really, but I have to ask whats the point in the latter apart from the small amont of smugness when we get to say "I knew it!"?. Seams to me that we'd all get more enjoyment if we helped the game succeed in what ever way we can.

 

Still, im only one voice and probably wrong. Up to you to decided i suppose.

 

Thanks for listening

[JMCH]

Repeatedly liying, fake customer support, everlasting bugs, post-launch additions not working properly...

 

I like some stuff SW:TOR offers, but it's clearly not the best MMO ever, and probably one of the worst when it comes to PR/CS.

 

Yeah, I was amazed by how few structure bugs there were during my initial leveling, and then found there are in fact quite alot and I didn't see them because I didn't do FPs and didn't auto-run into some walls.

[Tumedus]

And as long as players continue to have this attitude, there won't be true interaction between them and developers. Even if we don't owe them anything, the developers don't deserve the kind of slandering that is rampant on these forums either.

Deserve has nothing to do with it.

 

This isn't a friendship. EA/BW doesn't care about my relationships and I don't care about theirs. They aren't going to show up at my door and console me if my father dies. I am not going to drop by with soup if they are feeling sick.

 

If they want our dollar, they have to do what it takes to convince us that spending it on them is the right choice. If having an open discourse improves their chances of getting our dollar, whether it be through better understanding of what is being offered, a better final product, or simply better overall perception and PR, then that is what they should do.

 

If they are going to piss away good will towards their products in order to spite some forum trolls and haters who are too mean to their employees, that's their prerogative. But its not good buisness.

 

It goes back to the old adage "the customer is always right". We all know the customer isn't always right, but that phrase doesn't have bupkis to do with the correctness of the customer. That phrase simply means you have to do what is needed to get people to spend on you and not the other guy. Sometimes that means taking a beating and smiling while the irrational objector spits ire in your face.

[NummSaul]

I do agree with you. In fact this is why i used the word 'we' not 'the haters' because although i wasn't vocal i did feel like this. But at the end of the day a promise by a PR campaign should be taken with a grain of salt. Can we really be mad because we were promised the world and were nieve enough to expect perfection?

 

I honestly believe this game could achieve the vision that these promisses eluded too (if not what we dreamt for it) but in order for that to happen i think we need to be a little more grown up with our feedback. This community could really help the game if people were constructive with their criticism or it could run the game into the ground. Up to us really, but I have to ask whats the point in the latter apart from the small amont of smugness when we get to say "I knew it!"?. Seams to me that we'd all get more enjoyment if we helped the game succeed in what ever way we can.

 

Still, im only one voice and probably wrong. Up to you to decided i suppose.

 

Thanks for listening

 

You are right about taking PR promises with a grain of salt but most people will cling to these promises (They don't even fully realise this)

Aside from that it's about both sides creatign problems for each other, the developers make PR promises and the customers (gamers) hang on to these and they will burn this game to the ground if these promises are not deliverd.

Developers should know that in our current society people act like this.

Sometimes it is better to not blow up advertisement and PR talk. Just look at the game call of duty, yes there is alot of PR and advertisement. But it does not promise all kinds of stuff that will not make it into the game in the end.

 

But Aside from all this, yes good constructive criticism would help every game/company.

The game/company does have to be open minded for these talks and suggestions from their playerbase and sadly this is not really the case for EA/Bioware.

[justiceface]

You might pay for it, but it isn't a huge bill monthly and i just think you should show some appreciation that's all.

 

And to be honest with you, most people who work in the gaming industry are working there out of having a passion for games its not just a job you apply for and take it, there is a lot of study involved.

 

All I say is have some gratitude.

 

Gratitude for a product that I paid for and have issues with. *** is your problem? Grow a spine

[sstanks]

Repeatedly liying, fake customer support, everlasting bugs, post-launch additions not working properly...

 

I like some stuff SW:TOR offers, but it's clearly not the best MMO ever, and probably one of the worst when it comes to PR/CS.

 

Yeah, I was amazed by how few structure bugs there were during my initial leveling, and then found there are in fact quite alot and I didn't see them because I didn't do FPs and didn't auto-run into some walls.

 

lying?

[ImperialHippy]

Gratitude for a product that I paid for and have issues with. *** is your problem? Grow a spine

 

I get th bus everyday. I pay £93 a month for this. I have plenty of issues with it, i hate it when its late or when its full of screaming children ect but every time i get off i still say thank you to the bus driver. This is not being spineless, its called having manners and being respectful.

[justiceface]

I think its time we take a look in the mirror. Over the last year we, the vocal community of fans, have thrown some pretty nasty complaints, insults and even slander at the Bioware staff. While some may have come from the best intentions, simply wanting them to improve features of fix mistakes, I believe it has had the opposite effect.

 

There has been a lot of speculation around the web at the large lay-off's at Bioware this past year and we've been quick to blame EA and the (perceived) failure of SWTOR as some of the reasons but what if its us thats really to blame? What if, in our tantrums, we actually caused the people who have given us such great games over the years to pack it in. If I were a developer I would certainly feel dismayed and disheartened when you try and give your fans what they want only to get in thrown back in your face. I think we owed them more than that and it sadness me that we couldn't trust them enough to steer this game, and their company, in forever improving directions. Sure there are always going to be bugs and rough patches but didn't we owe it to them to support them as they tried to figure these things out?

 

Maybe thats the problem with the MMO genere, due to the high price we have to pay we naturally grow a sense of entitlement. Shame if this proves detrimental to the game itself.

 

Well no matter if im a minority on this one, for what its worth, I apologise. Hopefully there is still enough passionate developers left at Bioware to see this game through. I for one am hopping this does grow into that "forever RPG" that Daniel Erickson had imagined before he walked away.

 

Just my opinions anyways, take them or leave them.

 

Unless you did something idiotic like pray for the death and destruction of the developers and everything they hold dear you don't have anything to apologize for. If you want to say you like something feel free to do that(I posted about how much fun I'm having playing a sith sin) but don't pretend that we don't have a right to be critical about a product we're paying for, it doesn't make any sense.