Does BioWare take pride in their MMO?

[Katsuragisama]

I made a post on another forum about the blatant lack of quality assurance when you advertise clipping gear on the site. Gear that is being sold for actual cash in the Cartel Market. Someone from said forum, actually defended this. I figured this would be a great place to also share my perception of advertising gear that clips.

 

The thread that started this perception: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=571437

 

As most know, Revan's Mask clips through the hood. But to have the audacity to advertise this, without fixing the clipping, makes me wonder. Do they take pride in their work? In their MMO? Granted, most of the people that were with this game from the beginning, have jumped ship.

 

Yes, clipping happens in every game. But should you advertise it? If you have time to make some advertisements to sell your gear, shouldnt you take the time to fix the clipping first?

 

http://i46.tinypic.com/29z6hqo.png

 

I would hope that whatever company develops my favorite MMO of any genre, takes pride in their work. When your advertisements show a blatant lack of quality assurance, it has an effect on the perception of your product overall.

 

I should actually be able to look at everything in the game and say, "Wow, they worked really hard on this." Instead I think: "Wow, they dont even care to fix clipping before making an advertisement out of it. They dont take pride in their work, it's like they dont even care."

 

It shouldnt matter that previous other crappy games you played clipped like hell. But you should care whether the people making the product (especially an MMO) actually have their heart in it.

 

If not, where does it end? They cant be asked to fixed a simple clipping issue, what next? They cant be asked to test patches before pushing it to live and breaking a FP? They cant be asked to test a patch to make sure features that worked before, still work?

 

It's not the simple clipping of the armor. It's the lack of quality assurance. The above examples have actually all happened because of their lack of QA. Broken features has happened countless times...

 

If this is the type of lazy quality assurance they are trying to sell players, maybe there's a reason why many people are skeptical and cautious of BioWare's "expansion" announcement.

[LegendaryBlade]

Pretty much everybody that developed this game has been replaced or let go, none of the people that would take pride in the game are left. Given how much the game under-performed Bioware is probably less concerned about taking pride in the game and more concerned about keeping it viable business wise.

[Amodin]

It is easy to tell by ignoring fixing long-standing bugs in game and just piling more and more updates on top of the bugs, causing more bugs.

 

Then they thought that everyone would forget it all by announcing the content update as an expansion and charging for bugs... err content.

 

You see where it's going - all the Cartel Market hype while everything else is ignored.

[Turshek]

I really doubt it's a problem of a lack of quality assurance, I'm sure they know problems way before us.

 

For me, it looks like more a problem of short schedule/small budget/quantity over quality development cycle. Devs/artists... in understaffed teams have short time to create things, the test/QA phase is also very short and when problems are reported to management only the most severe ones area handled, management prefer to release things with bugs than delaying things. When the next iteration begins, devs are still pushed to do new things and so don't have time to fix bugs from the previous iteration.

 

 

Really, when they put a build on the PTS and in few days, players found bugs but weeks later, when it's updated on live, thoses bugs are still present, the problem is not a QA problem, it's just that the management decided to release no matter what, because thoses bugs were judged not critical enough.

[arunav]

I really doubt it's a problem of a lack of quality assurance, I'm sure they know problems way before us.

 

For me, it looks like more a problem of short schedule/small budget/quantity over quality development cycle. Devs/artists... in understaffed teams have short time to create things, the test/QA phase is also very short and when problems are reported to management only the most severe ones area handled, management prefer to release things with bugs than delaying things. When the next iteration begins, devs are still pushed to do new things and so don't have time to fix bugs from the previous iteration.

 

 

Really, when they put a build on the PTS and in few days, players found bugs but weeks later, when it's updated on live, thoses bugs are still present, the problem is not a QA problem, it's just that the management decided to release no matter what, because thoses bugs were judged not critical enough.

 

Same thing happened with even the new WZ, which has been in the works for many, many months. It doesn't give you defensive medals at the moment. How is this overlooked? It's about as basic a mechanic as you can get, attacker medal, defensive medal.

 

You are spot on with your comments. These problems are known and pushed live anyway.

 

I love how they are actually publicly testing Makeb. It's basically an admission their current policies would be a disaster for the expansion.

[RepublicPilot]

They probably did take pride in the game a while ago, the original team that is. Bioware isn't bioware anymore, hasn't been for a long time, this game is now firmly in EA hands, and EA have pretty much abandoned it. John Ricitello or whatever his name is even branded it as a loss. It probably won't be long until the bioware brand is merged with another EA dominated developer, just as mythic was merged into bioware.

 

With that said, the SWTOR team has been cut a lot this year. EA butchery always results in customer service and quality assurance teams being the first casualties. This is the result: a deeply flawed game, bugs running rampant and generally a "known issues" list bigger than the patch notes.

[LordExozone]

Pretty much everybody that developed this game has been replaced or let go, none of the people that would take pride in the game are left. Given how much the game under-performed Bioware is probably less concerned about taking pride in the game and more concerned about keeping it viable business wise.

 

Amazing. How did you get all this exclusive inside information?

[Katsuragisama]

They probably did take pride in the game a while ago, the original team that is. Bioware isn't bioware anymore, hasn't been for a long time, this game is now firmly in EA hands, and EA have pretty much abandoned it. John Ricitello or whatever his name is even branded it as a loss. It probably won't be long until the bioware brand is merged with another EA dominated developer, just as mythic was merged into bioware.

 

With that said, the SWTOR team has been cut a lot this year. EA butchery always results in customer service and quality assurance teams being the first casualties. This is the result: a deeply flawed game, bugs running rampant and generally a "known issues" list bigger than the patch notes.

 

That's my feeling as well. But I dont really remember a time where bugs were fixed in a timely manner before all of the layoffs as well Maybe because the layoffs happened so long ago or so quickly after launch, that I just dont remember, or they never actually fixed bugs quickly to begin with.

 

There's another thing you're forgetting about the result of EA butchery and take overs. The once great company, that they buy out, usually ends up dead. I hope it doesnt come to that, but I feel at some point that it will, and they will go with a horribly tarnished reputation in the end.

[Karasuko]

I bet bioware does care about their game, unfortunately that pillock Jeff Hickman is holding the reins on EA's behalf.

[RepublicPilot]

That's my feeling as well. But I dont really remember a time where bugs were fixed in a timely manner before all of the layoffs as well Maybe because the layoffs happened so long ago or so quickly after launch, that I just dont remember, or they never actually fixed bugs quickly to begin with.

 

There's another thing you're forgetting about the result of EA butchery and take overs. The once great company, that they buy out, usually ends up dead. I hope it doesnt come to that, but I feel at some point that it will, and they will go with a horribly tarnished reputation in the end.

 

They had a decent response time to bugs/tickets for a little while after launch, but I think after the free month was up and particularly after the first paid month was up EA's finger was hovering over the fire button.

 

Oh, and I agree. Some people would say Bioware has already been killed off - I mean, the 2 founders are gone, DA2 and ME3 disappointed a large chunk of their fans and SWTOR's game director, James Ohlen, hasn't been heard from since early June.

 

Sad fate for Bioware to be sure, should have listened to the people who predicted this when EA's takeover was first announced

[-Me-]

Guys, just ask yourselves this, if they truly truly have pride in this game then why would they launch the biggest change to the game which fundamental changed everything for everyone (Nov. 15 F2P) and then send all but the night janitor home for a week, a whole week? How many 1000s upon 1000s of people needed customer support over the bugged out cartel market and other in game issues as a result of the update or whatever but nobody was there to fix anything even if they wanted to?

 

Can anyone even suggest that is taking pride in the game? Please be serious.

[Samy_Merchi]

I think there's some things to still be proud over. They really did a fully voiced MMO, more or less. With some actual conversation choices other than accept/reject quest.

 

But past launch? The last year or so? I can't see anybody seriously taking pride over what's happened over the course of 2012. It's just a matter of who's more ashamed than who.

[Kalfear]

I think they did take pride at the start (prior to Oct 08) on the concept and ideal of the game.

 

Even after the website opened you watch the early dev diaries and this game IS NOT what they were talking about back then.

 

At some point the wheels came off and this game design changed for the worse

The original Ideas were tossed and the "new" more WOWish designs were added

 

I do not beleive any previous Bioware employee feels pride in this game

 

Thats not to say this game is horrible, I still play and pay so obviously I find something to like.

 

But THIS IS NOT the game that was built up and advertised way back in Oct '08

 

But mostly, and they can spin it any way thay like" watching the heart and soul writers and developers willingly leave this project (Like Drew K) tells you the story in itself. People abandoning a sinking ship.

 

I keep hopeing new blood will turn this game around but more and more it looks to be turning into a cash grab mechanic.

 

And who could feel pride over that?

maybe the lawyers and managers but creative people. Artistic people. People with imagination would all be physically ill watching something with so much potential be changed to a online cash grab.

 

and im still waiting on Pazzaak and Swoop Racing.

[Spiritinblack]

It is not BW anymore. If you look at the game, right now, in this state is no where near what BW wanted.

(my opinion)

 

I have been with this game since first beta. I have watched the degradation of since then.

I look at it now and just wonder what it could have been.

 

To answer the question. No. I don't think there is any pride in it, other then the money they are making.

They are a business, and that is what they a here to do, make money.

 

I get that. I understand that. But there is a difference between making money, and just plain trying to get the most you can for little to no effort.

 

I Have said this before, and it seems not to get through to people.

I don't blame eaware. I blame us. ( us in the general term )

 

We pay for the games. ( eaware is not the only game nickle and dimeing, they are however doing it worse then I have seen ). You want changes..... stop paying for bugtastic games. You don't want pay2win games..... don't pay for them.

( I am no better then anyone else in this matter, I have been doing it right along too)

 

I see it all too well. People come out and flame people when they voice their opinion on something. They are called haters..... here is a hint for you, I would rather die on my feet, then live on my knees. I will fight for something I believe in.

And I see it too many times people being called a fanboy, because they love the game. Same thing I am sure for them. they are fighting for what they believe in.

 

The sad part about this is I love this game. Not for what it is now..... but for what it was going to be. Now it is just eaware trying to grab as much money as they can, while not caring if it is a good game.

 

That is the only thing they have pride in atm.

 

( sorry for the rant)

[-Me-]

It is not BW anymore. If you look at the game, right now, in this state is no where near what BW wanted.

(my opinion)

 

I have been with this game since first beta. I have watched the degradation of since then.

I look at it now and just wonder what it could have been.

 

To answer the question. No. I don't think there is any pride in it, other then the money they are making.

They are a business, and that is what they a here to do, make money.

 

I get that. I understand that. But there is a difference between making money, and just plain trying to get the most you can for little to no effort.

 

I Have said this before, and it seems not to get through to people.

I don't blame eaware. I blame us. ( us in the general term )

 

We pay for the games. ( eaware is not the only game nickle and dimeing, they are however doing it worse then I have seen ). You want changes..... stop paying for bugtastic games. You don't want pay2win games..... don't pay for them.

( I am no better then anyone else in this matter, I have been doing it right along too)

 

I see it all too well. People come out and flame people when they voice their opinion on something. They are called haters..... here is a hint for you, I would rather die on my feet, then live on my knees. I will fight for something I believe in.

And I see it too many times people being called a fanboy, because they love the game. Same thing I am sure for them. they are fighting for what they believe in.

 

The sad part about this is I love this game. Not for what it is now..... but for what it was going to be. Now it is just eaware trying to grab as much money as they can, while not caring if it is a good game.

 

That is the only thing they have pride in atm.

 

( sorry for the rant)

 

You just said a whole lot of what I've been trying to find the words to say for a long time. Thank You!!

 

At the end of the day there really is no one to blame but ourselves, all of us for bad gaming. If we didn't pay until they proved a good product then and only then will we turn this genre around and maybe even TOR.

 

Please think about that for a bit.

[urukuexone]

For things like the Revan mask clipping, the fact that the hood stays down, when it is also up, the canisters on the CZ-13K not connecting to the chest, just floating in space(more errors like these and not enough space to write), no, they can't possibly take pride in that. These are all easy fixes, and should have been noticed while making this stuff. Easy as in, one man, and a few minutes time. They can't possibly be THAT understaffed.

 

These are things someone should be fired for, with whatever is the opposite of a letter of recommendation. The people doing some of these models and textures seriously have no place in the gaming industry.

 

I very much hope that someone with a love of MMOs, gaming, and Star Wars bring us a new Star Wars MMORPG.

 

I do enjoy the game, but things like that really take me out of it sometimes. I probably won't continue my sub, and I'm not sure how long the fun I AM having will last.

Edited December 24, 2012 by urukuexone

[Katsuragisama]

Pretty much everybody that developed this game has been replaced or let go, none of the people that would take pride in the game are left. Given how much the game under-performed Bioware is probably less concerned about taking pride in the game and more concerned about keeping it viable business wise.

Amazing. How did you get all this exclusive inside information?

 

Not sure if oblivious, or troll... But how is what he said exclusive inside information? Anyone who has kept up with the game knows that most of the original key players for this game are long gone. From 2 rounds of lay offs earlier in the year, along with (but not limited to) the original Executive Producer for SWTOR, the IA Storyline writer, the founding doctors of BioWare itself, and many more. Also, we all know that back in July, EA themselves called SW:TOR a "disappointment". O.o

 

They all left, and we got the Hickman. >.>

 

It is not BW anymore. If you look at the game, right now, in this state is no where near what BW wanted.

(my opinion)

 

I have been with this game since first beta. I have watched the degradation of since then.

I look at it now and just wonder what it could have been.

 

To answer the question. No. I don't think there is any pride in it, other then the money they are making.

They are a business, and that is what they a here to do, make money.

 

I get that. I understand that. But there is a difference between making money, and just plain trying to get the most you can for little to no effort.

 

I Have said this before, and it seems not to get through to people.

I don't blame eaware. I blame us. ( us in the general term )

 

We pay for the games. ( eaware is not the only game nickle and dimeing, they are however doing it worse then I have seen ). You want changes..... stop paying for bugtastic games. You don't want pay2win games..... don't pay for them.

( I am no better then anyone else in this matter, I have been doing it right along too)

 

I see it all too well. People come out and flame people when they voice their opinion on something. They are called haters..... here is a hint for you, I would rather die on my feet, then live on my knees. I will fight for something I believe in.

And I see it too many times people being called a fanboy, because they love the game. Same thing I am sure for them. they are fighting for what they believe in.

 

The sad part about this is I love this game. Not for what it is now..... but for what it was going to be. Now it is just eaware trying to grab as much money as they can, while not caring if it is a good game.

 

That is the only thing they have pride in atm.

 

( sorry for the rant)

 

The rant was welcome, cause it's truthful. What I dont get though, is how they can miss something simple. Not sure if it's game developing companies, or just businesses in general. They dont seem to understand if they built a more quality product, they would inevitably make more money.

 

Maybe not so quickly, short term, but in the long run. MMO's are designed for longevity. Single Player games are designed for a quick experience, and then you put it on the shelf until you get the urge to play it again. MMO's, people play it off and on for years.

 

If they seemed to take pride in the game, and would fix glaring issues and bugs, we'd all be happier with the game. The happier we are, the longer we'll play the game, and the longer we'll subscribe. Which also translates into the more money they would make over all because we'd be happy to throw them a couple bucks and buy something from the cartel market.

 

The consumer you piss off, make them hate your product and your company, they arent coming back for a while, if at all. You wont be making money off of them, but some other company that takes pride in their MMO... They will now be getting the money from the happy customer easily. Not because they're forcing them too with restrictions or blatant cash grabs, but because the consumer feels confident in the longevity of the game itself.

[Glorthox]

It's making me wonder if there isn't two companies trying to benefit here. I can see bioware getting the active subscriptions a month, whereas a second company could be the one bringing out new cartel market stuff and getting all the money from that. Hence the reason why cartel stuff is coming out quicker, they want to get paid.

[AshlaBoga]

Based on this image New PvE and PvP gear I think the answer is obvious.

[Thylbanus]

Amazing. How did you get all this exclusive inside information?

 

You know, I wasn't sure if this is attempt at trolling, but I'm going to answer you anyway. Both of BioWare's founders, Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk, retired Sept. 18th, 2012. These men were the visionaries that lauched the solid company that was BioWare. Then the Lead Designer Daniel Erickson left Oct. 4th to look for greener pastures. Executive Producer Rich Vogel also left just before another massive round of layoffs for the SWTOR team. BioWare is not the entity that once made the amazing titles they were known for. Now it is merely a subsidiary of EA. To many, including myself, BioWare no longer exists, it's just EA.

 

Coupled with the fact that the new Executive Producer, Jeff Hickman, who's pedigre includes Customer Service Director and then (when EA took over) Executive Producer of Dark Age of Camelot and Executive Producer of Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning. His assignment to SWTOR is indicitve of what happend to the two other games he helmed, status quo and stagnation. Cut everything out and tread water is his hallmark.

 

So yea, not a whole lot of exclusive information, you can find it plastered all over the internet. You just have to take time to look. (in case you didn't, I provided links )

[Darka]

Feels to me that they lost faith in this product well before Launch,

[Eaglec]

I used to do a lot of modding for a persistent world version of Neverwinter Nights (Bioware, google it if you dont remember!) This was a fantastic game and genius in concept while at the same time being as buggy as a termite mound and terribly written. NWN was great not because of coding and official content patching but because the community was able to write their own content and share the experience online with others.

 

With SWTOR they don't have new problems, its the same old rubbish caused by poor management and hiring cheap inexperienced coders. They hired people straight out of uni and claimed it was because they wanted fresh talent. This is great but experience counts for a lot and they didn't get the mix right. This is my opinion as to why we see so many rookie mistakes.

 

The failures in TOR were not caused by EA, but they have been exacerbated by it. I'm not sure what will fix it, but trying to gouge the subscribers for a cash injection is not the right answer.

[darklordpotter]

I used to do a lot of modding for a persistent world version of Neverwinter Nights (Bioware, google it if you dont remember!) This was a fantastic game and genius in concept while at the same time being as buggy as a termite mound and terribly written. NWN was great not because of coding and official content patching but because the community was able to write their own content and share the experience online with others.

 

With SWTOR they don't have new problems, its the same old rubbish caused by poor management and hiring cheap inexperienced coders. They hired people straight out of uni and claimed it was because they wanted fresh talent. This is great but experience counts for a lot and they didn't get the mix right. This is my opinion as to why we see so many rookie mistakes.

 

The failures in TOR were not caused by EA, but they have been exacerbated by it. I'm not sure what will fix it, but trying to gouge the subscribers for a cash injection is not the right answer.

 

Will certainly agree the problems are worsened by it being an MMO - if the game was not online only the consumers probably would have fixed a whole load of the bugs for them as traditionally happens with Bethesda games. Unfortunately as an MMO that is no longer an option.

[Samy_Merchi]

Wow, the days when I was playing NWN1 persistent worlds...I was so young...

[spectreclees]

They had one of the smoothest launches of MMOs in recent history and made an MMo that had a decent story. They should be proud of that. After that however, it kind of falls flat on it's face with things to be proud of. It needs work.