Force bubble way OP

[blameitonthe]

Bubble stun sorc/sage healers are slightly harder to kill. So if that's OP then yes, bubble stun is OP.

[fungihoujo]

might want to check your own logic before you go bashing BW's logic. you actually think turning WZs in to autostun zones is going to make people enjoy PVP? lol. in case you never noticed, #1 complaint about pvp has always been booohooos about CCs.

 

also, if you actually played the game instead of spending all your time in this thread, you would understand that your autostun bubble makes sents/mars even more dificult to deal with. bad enough they have all there normal defence abilities, now they have perm autostun bubble on them in most WZs. before your silly aoe autostun garbage, wasnt to hard to send smashers to respawn... but now, they pretty much have god mode all because of stunbubble.

 

If I was playing a drinking game where I took a shot every time someone said sorcs needed a nerf because marauders are too powerful- I'd have alcohol poisoning right now.

 

If marauders are so powerful that BUFFING OTHER CLASSES buffs them MORE than it buffs the class that was buffed- we have a god damn problem and it's absolutely terrible that you people still can't see it.

 

Also- as I pointed out and you naturally ignored like the good little mara-drone you are- BW were the ones who put the stun bubble in in the first place EVEN THOUGH sorcs were asking for a hundred things and CC was the ONE thing we weren't asking for.

 

So ya, I question BW's logic- maybe it's time you did too rather than treating them like balancing gods merely because it benefits you.

[Sulfuren]

15 second interrupt on charge, 8 seconds regular interrupt- check the numbers, anni gets that interrupt at 6 seconds. Oh yes, 2 seconds shorter, and 3 seconds off the charge- but even as carnage without those reductions, this is still the best interrupts in the game. So.... you're wrong, I'm right, still a real spec.

 

People are going to see charge has much more than an interrupt in a WZ due to A: Not locking you out of your spell that was cast, and B: Needed for gap closing/Rage building. Which again, a non-issue.

 

I will agree that I was wrong about the actual interrupt CD, and the fact that that should be one of the things to change back to 12sec on mara. In terms of you being right, here you go.

 

Yes, it is a gimp to damage- but if you honestly have never used predation as a non-carnage you're so bad I don't know why I bother...

 

Did you even read the rest of the post? You didn't.

 

regardless, the example I used was carnage- which has a bigger predation buff and a natural permanent 15% movement buff. The bigger point is- marauders have this party wide buff on top of everything else they have, yet are still whining that a class that is supposed to suck at solo and be good for groups (according to what mara say about sorcs) because that class has a useful(BROKEN) stun bubble.

 

Carnage Mara's are brought just because of that buff, they don't bring anni/rage mara's to spam Predation every 30 stacks.

 

And.. again, BW doesn't balance 1v1, they balance class's from group play, which, with some minor fixes and a rage nerf would put them rather balanced wtih snipers. The reason people -ARE- complaining, is because of the bolded part that is in your quote, which you still don't want to understand.

 

They can root for 36 seconds per minute, over half the time- no resolve. Downplay it as much as you want by ignoring the CDs, but that's where it is at. That's an absurd amount of free CC and it adds up to the fact that a marauder can spend a majority of a battle either rooting you or under the effects of a defensive CD.

 

One root requires them to get range, which they don't exactly want to use it because their job is -DPS-, no self respected Mara is going to somehow perma root you for the entire fight and not get killed awhile doing it. There's your facts. If you can stop attempting to broker for your class to be a 1v1 god then the better this whole thing can go.

 

Also, roots aren't as prevalent as you think. Sorcs have to go fully into madness to get a 2 second root on 9 second CD- which btw adds up to about a third of the rooting power a mara has- that the squishiest class that relies on kiting in every spec doesn't have a non spec root is simply terrible,

 

Knockback, bubble(Free heal), Hard stun, Free instant heal, force speed - That is baseline what Sorc's get for defense.

 

Lightining spec - Knockback root, bubble broken stun, force speed

 

Madness - Two second root, and one thing rather important. An instant Whirlwind that mezs for 8 seconds then stuns at the end for -two- for a total of 10 seconds being mezed, force speed.

 

Lightning/Madness: Buffed bubble with broken stun , Hard stun, free instant heal, knockback with root, and instant whirlwind, force speed.

 

Healing/lightning: Buffed bubble with broken stun, hard stun, heals, stronger instant heal, CC immune force speed, knockback with root, and possible insta slow.

 

especially when roots are the game's best CC as you can waste most of a resolve bar with them- and marauders do if they're good. (course, marauders never fill resolve since all their utility doesn't cause it).

 

Has you can clearly see, roots and damage is all they -have-. Yall can easily deal with the defensive CDs, you -do- have the tools, even more better when specced into maddness, I'd say this is a L2P issue here.

 

Ya, I've heard this before- marauders love to say- "Well, just stun and root them". As a counter to smash, to ravage, to being charged, to having a mara on you slowing and killing you, to undying rage, to CoP, etc..... Probably an easy thing for a mara to imagine because with 36 sec worth of roots alone it would actually not be that hard to do so.

 

Listed all the tools, you can use one or two to counter them all, maybe you should try not wasting them all at the start of the fight?

 

However- no other class gets that in any spec, period. And no class has this endless string of counters marauders seem to think we have. You are playing a class that has no interruptable abilities, has huge mobility advantages, and has amazing defensives-

 

Assassins and snipers.

 

while some other classes can be interrupted almost no matter what they do, are immobile with almost every cast- and have two or three chances to get away- all on longer CD than an unspecced charge anyway.

 

DPS mercs, DPS operatives, Lightning Sorcs.

 

Here's what you don't get- when you have ten tools in your toolbox as a mara, all on nice CDs, you're going to outlast someone who has five.

 

List them all. Please.

 

And here's the kicker- that person will be dead by then anyway since a mara can also outburst you unless you're a PT. Marauders have the defensives and mobility of a sustained class- yet the damage of a burst- it doesn't take a genius to see why they're FOTM... for half a year.

 

PT's do higher burst than mara's, but are balanced with lesser defensive CDs.

 

Only actually spec that can do serious burst is rage spec, which does need tuning. Anni's is built up and carnage requires set-up. Both of those can't be set up if they arn't building rage, or in melee range. Hence, all the tools you have has one of the hybrid sorcs to prevent.. plus teammates. Again, L2P.

 

Next, its very easy to spot a bad mara from a good mara, because if you really are a good PvPer, you would adapt to what they do. I surely don't think they can keep bursting you down after charging at you at first sight then you knocking them back then rooting them. Take it from there. Maybe you just need to fight more good mara's because you don't know what they do and lose repeatedly to them.

 

You're right... they won't last that long- but kiting successfully might do that. Of course, you're saying to use the 20 sec CD KB after charge- fact is, KB is on a longer CD-

 

... So when are you going to use it?

 

and a mara has more tools to close distances, you know that-

 

Awhile rooted after the KB? Like what?

 

nevermind the 15% speed bonus, and if you as a mara cannot reach the target because of kiting and still not using predation or force camo while they kill you over a minute- that's your problem for being bad.

 

And then you can call out to your teammates about said mara attacking you and swich briefly to another person to dot them up. Don't forget! which that charge and root you -STILL- have your bubble on you.

 

You can say that marauders never get 6 second kills as much as you like- but ultimately if it's 6 or 8 or 10 seconds, the fact is it's still rediculously shorter than a sorc trying to kill that mara. Yes, my BM mara (not even WH) kills recruits before they can move away or launch any sort of damage on me- maybe it's not six seconds,

 

Then they don't kill that fast.

 

If they stand there and let you kill them without doing -ANYTHING-, then that isn't the fault of the class, that's the fault of -them-.

 

Good luck killing a mara as a sorc before they can move.

 

What your basically saying is that Mara's can -global- people, not only is globaling not possble with WH vs WH. But mara's still have to work for the kill has much has the next person, no matter how much easier they have it.

 

They is their job, and that is what they are good at doing when speced completely for it.

 

You want to ask as an OP class for my UP near broken class to get a nerf, and expect I'll just sit back and let it pass? Really? After 1.2 nerfs you think I'll just do nothing...

 

Maybe, just maybe if the ability wasn't broken...

 

It takes a special kind of special for the strongest class to be launching an attempt to get one of the worst nerfed blah blah blah blah ect

 

You don't want to read what people want, that's your problem, you talk has if people are asking for a global nerf, when its just a fix for one ability, you think of it has a call for a nerf for no reason when there is posted proof that the ability is getting chessed and exploited has it is right now. You haven't even posted a reason to why yall should keep this ability the EXACT WAY IT IS other than the fact of "lolmaratears/Mara counter to smash!"

 

And don't give me this crap about starting insuits when you clearly been using them post after post, which gave me the green light to go ahead and do the same, if you don't like someone fighting fire with fire, go ahead and report their post, and they'll kindly return the same to yours. So kindly stop attempting to look classy.

 

Nope, you didn't, and if you think the ability to kill and shut down a healer in 10-15 seconds before going to kill someone else is no usefulness in groups, I won't bother changing your mind.

 

Yet you didn't reply to the whole post.

 

OK, let's say this thread was about the force bubble being way OP- I dunno why, maybe cuz it's in the title. Let's assume then that the bubble is op because something happened to it, what happened? Oh right- buffed the bubble to make it stun rather than mez.

 

And at the same time with the change the bubble stun was made to be clicked off and the amount of resolve it gives doesn't match with other stuns of the same.

 

I doubt they intended for that to happen, especially the former, and the feedback that is happening in this thread, along with a dev posting that there -IS- an issue, say's that.

 

You don't want a nerf... you just want the mez (which as I said, was as often a boon as a bad thing) replacing the far superior stun, or for the stun to only affect the caster. That's not a nerf.

 

That's not a nerf to you? Are you kidding me?! Well, let's make predation only affect the marauder- it still affect him so it's not a nerf! Smash only hits the target- it only affect the mara's target so it's not a nerf!

 

There's a reason talent tree's exist in the first place, to separate a field of experience and gameplay from one to the other.

 

In lightning, there is no possible way in hell that they put the bubble mez in, which is now a stun, for team unity, they mainly put in for -Self-survival-, so that said Sorc can get his cast off and/or kite away from someone attacking him. Which is why its -THAT HIGH UP IN THE TREE-. What its don't right now, not adding in the brokenness, is giving them -both- team unity and survival, and its low enough that people can still get key ability's in other trees to add to both of those much more than intended. Which, because of that, is causing a crap ton of more CC to be added to the game.

 

Lightning is a DPS turret spec, not a team unity spec. If you want to be more critical.

 

But I know full well you 'clowns' have gotten so used to unopposed domination as marauders and want to keep the TTK-fest as it is- as you've been doing for half a year now. Pretty sure that ruins the game for everyone who's not a mara- oh right, you're a mara, my bad, forgot the game doesn't exist outside your own bubble.

 

Well, if you want go that far, list the differences between a mara, an assassin, and a sniper. All three class's are hard to master, easy to get into, and are basically balanced with each other. If you can't see that after that, then that's your problem.

 

"Here, I've quoted two sentences out of your post fungihoujo that I will now take out of context by ignoring the lead up and part after so I can say you are wrong, then say you're a huge joke and a bad and marauders are fine- nerf sorcs, lololololol"

 

And the sad part about all this is that I never posted a single statement saying that mara's are completely fine. Yet you want everything about them nerfed into the ground. Heres your next challenge, how about listing out what -you- would change on a mara if you got control of them? Of course the biggest one I want you to do is comparing the three class's I listed because the only thing you would do is "IN TO THE GROUND BABY!!!"

[MiaRB]

If I was playing a drinking game where I took a shot every time someone said sorcs needed a nerf because marauders are too powerful- I'd have alcohol poisoning right now.

 

If marauders are so powerful that BUFFING OTHER CLASSES buffs them MORE than it buffs the class that was buffed- we have a gosh darn problem and it's absolutely terrible that you people still can't see it.

 

Also- as I pointed out and you naturally ignored like the good little mara-drone you are- BW were the ones who put the stun bubble in in the first place EVEN THOUGH sorcs were asking for a hundred things and CC was the ONE thing we weren't asking for.

 

So ya, I question BW's logic- maybe it's time you did too rather than treating them like balancing gods merely because it benefits you.

 

i dont play a sent or mar, i pvp with inf spec shadow.

 

i dont think anyone is asking for sages/sorcs to get nerfed. people are only asking WZs to not be filling with 16 people are running around with a silly aoe autostun bubble that is exploitable. sages/sorcs can keep a personal autostun bubble( as long as the exploit is fixed ). but the bubble they put on teammates should not have the auto aoe stun.

Edited November 24, 2012 by MiaRB

[Calogerus]

Thanks for posting your thoughts about the stun bubble and its Resolve value. We do plan on making some changes to the bubble in the future, but we're still looking at some different options for addressing concerns about it. We'll continue taking your feedback into account and will let you know more when we can.

 

Let me get this straight, people complain about something as (almost useless) as a Sorc bubble and you say you plan on "making changes" to it in the future yet almost every thread on the Sorc class had been literally asking for some dps buffs since 1.2 and you choose to answer this post instead of ours? Why not just say what you are really going to do to sorcs let me translate for you Bioware. Ahem...

 

"Yea we've nerf'd sorcs pretty hard sorry to hear that their bubble absorbs 2k of your damage from your 5k crit we plan on nerfing this as well in the near future." Now I really hate jumping to conclusions but with everything you have done to the sorc class for pvp... hold on I mean everything you haven't done this "future fix" means "future nerf".

 

Sorry for the readers who hate rage but really you all know sorcs are easily kill able and now you want to take our bubble away? Bioware I've been here since the start but one more Sorc nerf and you lose my sub.

[afupia]

Bioware needs to fix this its killing pvp.

[MidichIorian]

.... but one more Sorc nerf and you lose my sub.

Two subs. I'm fine with them taking away the stun when the bubble is thrown on other players but they better implement one hell of a compensation in the same patch.

[hate-wizard]

Two subs. I'm fine with them taking away the stun when the bubble is thrown on other players but they better implement one hell of a compensation in the same patch.

 

Yeah, that's exactly the fix I'd advocate. Unfortunately a bubble sorc (or two) and three others can shutdown + cap a node with the click off stun atm. Getting rid of the click off stun (rather than the stun altogether) will not hurt the sorc/sages but will stop it being used as it is today.

[fungihoujo]

List them all. Please.

"

 

36 seconds worth of roots/minute.

AoE mez.

Channeled stun.

Stealth

15 sec CD leap.

Predation

Obfuscate

Saber Ward

CoP

Undying Rage

15% natural movement boost

 

There you go, ten utility/defensives/CC or whatever 'tools' in a carnage mara's toolbox- though 36 seconds worth of roots is so absurdly OP it should count as three or four.

 

Anyway- there you go, you ask for 10, I give you ten, what next?

[fungihoujo]

i dont play a sent or mar, i pvp with inf spec shadow.

 

i dont think anyone is asking for sages/sorcs to get nerfed. people are only asking WZs to not be filling with 16 people are running around with a silly aoe autostun bubble that is exploitable. sages/sorcs can keep a personal autostun bubble( as long as the exploit is fixed ). but the bubble they put on teammates should not have the auto aoe stun.

 

Sages have an ability to put a stunning ability on allies- if you remove that it is a nerf. Everyone saying sorcs shouldn't be good at 1v1 because they are a group play class can't now just take that back and say the stun should be sorc only.

 

Everyone is asking for sorcs to get a nerf here- at most you have people saying 'well, give them a buff or something, whatever', like some small, mindless buff is going to make up for losing this.

 

If the class is going to suck 1v1, is not going to have the burst to get doors/turrets, and is going to be a sitting duck without a tank- it needs to stand out in group play, and now it actually does.

 

So- if that bubble gets removed, this class needs to get viable burst, viable self reliant healing, and viable mobility while casting. Because if it goes back to having no purpose in RWZ- that's the last thread on a very frayed rope.

Edited November 24, 2012 by fungihoujo

[crunchbarry]

**** you, this game is retarded. I love it. We complain for months about getting *****r ***** by melee and powertechs and they post a few QQ threads and we get the one thing we had going for us nerfed again..

 

straight from the llama's mouth. i own pve's ***.

[SoonerJBD]

Sorcerers and Sages get another nerf while Sentinels and Marauders continue to auto-crit entire groups for 6k-10k. That makes sense.

[Oddy_T]

And at the same time with the change the bubble stun was made to be clicked off and the amount of resolve it gives doesn't match with other stuns of the same.

 

I doubt they intended for that to happen, especially the former, and the feedback that is happening in this thread, along with a dev posting that there -IS- an issue, say's that.

 

You can click the bubble off since day 1 of this game which kind of shows what you know I guess (and how overpowered that has always been since very few people ever seem to have noticed).

The patch notes said they changed the talent to not break on damage and said nothing at all about any other changes, because there weren't any. The patch literally did what they intended and what the patch notes said.

[Boyana]

This all is crazy.

I somehow think developers already decided what is going to be done with bubble.

[Orielensis]

Sorcerers and Sages get another nerf while Sentinels and Marauders continue to auto-crit entire groups for 6k-10k. That makes sense.

 

No I think you've not understood what the qqing is about.

 

Two things are very noticeable in ranked pvp or normals involving strong premades on my server since I started playing again after a couple of months playing gw2, that weren't there before. The first is the crazy overuse of bubble stuns completely dominating some games, the second is the number of rage specced juggs and maras dominaing the damage charts, they seem to have taken over from pyro PTs.

 

Now the tiny amount of resolve built by the bubble stun assisting with ccing players while you cap is one thing. But the fact it's aoe and hard stun means it's the perfect combo with rage specced warriors / focus guardians. Whole groups of players fixed in place by the bubble stun can then be chain smashed with no opportunity to move or use any of their abilities to escape the situation. Use your cc breaker and you're just instantly stunned again.

 

So actually it's the ability to chain so many bubble stuns that is making that huge aoe autocrit damage you're worried about so OP atm. I used to laugh at rage / focus specced guys on both my carnage mara and my op healer - they were so easily controlled and countered. Now I don't laugh so much because I'm often fixed in place to eat 2 or 3 smashes without even having been able to use a single defensive ability or my own cc etc.

 

It's not working as intended, surely?

Edited November 24, 2012 by Orielensis

[SajPl]

So basically what people are saing is :

promblem : stun bubble is op on a rage warrior so they can stun and smash

i see the following solution : nerf warriors

outcome : bubble on warriors is no loger op

[AngusFTW]

its a problem against any class that has some burst.. unless both teams have a stunbubble sage then tis just a stunfest..

[MusicRider]

1- Remove the declicking debuff... because it's a buff for sentinels- yup, that's what you're saying. Now, look back at the times I've already said- saying the bubble is OP for mara so nerf sorcs is the most retarded reasoning for nerfing the class that is the UP one I have ever seen.

 

Not that I disagree with you- I don't see why the bubble should proc off a declick either, but that reasoning is terrible- if marauders are so powerful that giving other classes decent abilities makes the mara stronger than the class that got those abilities itself- why the **** are you people still trying to avoid a mara nerf?

 

2- This is true- the resolve was too high before hand, and for a mez that often was broken by dots/aoe anyway it ended up being a bad thing.

 

3- This is a nerf- pure and simple. This is a straight out nerf. Look- non sorcs have been saying for months that sorcs are supposed to suck 1v1 because they're good for groups. Well- this makes them good for groups, so now that they're actually good at what they should be good at- people want to take it back?

 

4- OK, but, lightning and madness are dps trees- if you want to be taken seriously you can't say- 'it's ok for other classes to have ****** dps trees because they have other trees' well, why do juggs and sins and PT have such great damage then? Shouldn't they have **** dps since they can also tank? And here we are- trying to avoid a mara nerf yet again.

 

Is it programmed in the moment you main a mara or something?

 

1. These were merely two examples demonstrating how bubble stun can be exploited against ranged dps classes as a lot of players think that it is only melee that have issues. So where i said sent replace with vanguard or scoundrel that uses the stun to position himself. I can think of many other exploits. For example one main one that can be used by any class is you cc someone with a bubble they can simply click debuff while stunned and stun you back. You are ccing someone while teammate caps, well if he has the bubble and they happen to be close to the capper then they can inter you from stun. But I'm glad you agree that declicking is no good although you haven't provided your reasons on why this is not good.

 

2-3) These two go together. Not changing the resolve is good for sages for the reason already explained and I see you are on the same page with me. Also leave the duration of stun when self cast as it is I say. However, the duration is quite long having eight 3 sec aoe stuns on a cool down of 17 secs running around. Seriously now tell me even a single stun ability of any class that has such a low cool down and such a long duration. Even force stun is on a 1min cool down. People that support that this is a defence against smashers, well force armour absorbs 80-100% of the smash damage depending on class, so I would say they already fulfil that specific role of protecting your teamates against smash. It's up to the teamates skill to choose what to do next, and not up to the sage to cover the poor play of a teammate with a powerful skill. So yes the bubble stun is an excellent and powerful ability that has made sages desirable but at what cost. I'll answer this in a min. Firstly, I would like to reply to this separation of 1v1 classes and group utility classes. I've always supported that this is totally nonsense. Every class, at least dps class, should have the ability to stand its ground on a 1v1 fight and let the best skilled and luckiest on cool downs win. I see as utility classes healers and tanks as their main output is towards the team and towards the opponents, and they are totally needed. So coming back to my original question of at what cost have sages become desirable due to their bubble stuns? Well this is simple and it is fun. It is not fun anymore to be stunned constantly for so long durations. I have a feeling that someone can be stunned 5-6 times with bubbles, now this is 15-18 secs of stun,, while the bubble can be reapplied in 17. In my opinion 1, max 2 and this is probably too much again should be the case when cast on a teammate. This has nothing to do with sents and maras as there are many other classes affected to the same extent, guardians, scoundrels, vanguards and shadows all are fighting in the melee circle of the battle, so basically you are taking out the fun of 5/8 advanced classes in the game. My view, nerf the bubble on teammates, buff something else, e.g. Reduce the channeling time of tk throw to 2 secs and immediately more damage with one simple change.

 

4) I still stick to my view, sents and gunslingers are the two classes that are meant to fulfil the role of dps and nothing else. So when I say better I mean that they could do an extra 10-20% of damage overall than other classes when both played optimally (although i think that dpsing with a sage is easier than dpsing with a sent), this translates to when your sage does 500k damage a sne will do 550-600k, if you think that the extra 50-100k of dps will make the difference on the win, then we will always disagree. To achieve this difference a nerf to smash specked players is needed. Also such little dps advantage makes no difference on a 1v1 fight.

 

What I main at the moment is irrelevant. What matters is that my sage is nearly an elite warlord and my sent and mara are at about 60 valor. If you know anything about the valor system the you will understand what that means.

Edited November 24, 2012 by MusicRider

[SajPl]

its a problem against any class that has some burst.. unless both teams have a stunbubble sage then tis just a stunfest..

 

It's exclusively knight/warrior problem. Any other class played decently will break the bubble outside of stun range with for example project (shadow) or assault plastique (vanguard), not to mention ranged classes. While I do understand warrior QQ about stun bubble dont make it look like its a problem for all classes because its not. Warriors on the other hand are the problem of all other classes:D.

[MusicRider]

It's exclusively knight/warrior problem. Any other class played decently will break the bubble outside of stun range with for example project (shadow) or assault plastique (vanguard), not to mention ranged classes. While I do understand warrior QQ about stun bubble dont make it look like its a problem for all classes because its not. Warriors on the other hand are the problem of all other classes:D.

 

No it is not. It's easy for warrior/knights to break the bubble outside the range also.

[MorgothQuick]

Problem with Warriors/Knights is that they can only break it outside of stun range with a few of their attacks, and only 1 of them within 10 meters doesn't require rage: Force Choke/Stasis, and those need to be channelled. All other classes with range attacks do not require you to actually hit a person to build resources before you can break the bubble safely.

[AngusFTW]

I have no trouble breaking the bubble the trouble is breaking 4 of them

[MorgothQuick]

I have no trouble breaking the bubble the trouble is breaking 4 of them

 

"Cant do that while stunned?" More like "Cant do that while dead!"

[fungihoujo]

1. These were merely two examples demonstrating how bubble stun can be exploited against ranged dps classes as a lot of players think that it is only melee that have issues. So where i said sent replace with vanguard or scoundrel that uses the stun to position himself. I can think of many other exploits. For example one main one that can be used by any class is you cc someone with a bubble they can simply click debuff while stunned and stun you back. You are ccing someone while teammate caps, well if he has the bubble and they happen to be close to the capper then they can inter you from stun. But I'm glad you agree that declicking is no good although you haven't provided your reasons on why this is not good.

 

2-3) These two go together. Not changing the resolve is good for sages for the reason already explained and I see you are on the same page with me. Also leave the duration of stun when self cast as it is I say. However, the duration is quite long having eight 3 sec aoe stuns on a cool down of 17 secs running around. Seriously now tell me even a single stun ability of any class that has such a low cool down and such a long duration. Even force stun is on a 1min cool down. People that support that this is a defence against smashers, well force armour absorbs 80-100% of the smash damage depending on class, so I would say they already fulfil that specific role of protecting your teamates against smash. It's up to the teamates skill to choose what to do next, and not up to the sage to cover the poor play of a teammate with a powerful skill. So yes the bubble stun is an excellent and powerful ability that has made sages desirable but at what cost. I'll answer this in a min. Firstly, I would like to reply to this separation of 1v1 classes and group utility classes. I've always supported that this is totally nonsense. Every class, at least dps class, should have the ability to stand its ground on a 1v1 fight and let the best skilled and luckiest on cool downs win. I see as utility classes healers and tanks as their main output is towards the team and towards the opponents, and they are totally needed. So coming back to my original question of at what cost have sages become desirable due to their bubble stuns? Well this is simple and it is fun. It is not fun anymore to be stunned constantly for so long durations. I have a feeling that someone can be stunned 5-6 times with bubbles, now this is 15-18 secs of stun,, while the bubble can be reapplied in 17. In my opinion 1, max 2 and this is probably too much again should be the case when cast on a teammate. This has nothing to do with sents and maras as there are many other classes affected to the same extent, guardians, scoundrels, vanguards and shadows all are fighting in the melee circle of the battle, so basically you are taking out the fun of 5/8 advanced classes in the game. My view, nerf the bubble on teammates, buff something else, e.g. Reduce the channeling time of tk throw to 2 secs and immediately more damage with one simple change.

 

4) I still stick to my view, sents and gunslingers are the two classes that are meant to fulfil the role of dps and nothing else. So when I say better I mean that they could do an extra 10-20% of damage overall than other classes when both played optimally (although i think that dpsing with a sage is easier than dpsing with a sent), this translates to when your sage does 500k damage a sne will do 550-600k, if you think that the extra 50-100k of dps will make the difference on the win, then we will always disagree. To achieve this difference a nerf to smash specked players is needed. Also such little dps advantage makes no difference on a 1v1 fight.

 

What I main at the moment is irrelevant. What matters is that my sage is nearly an elite warlord and my sent and mara are at about 60 valor. If you know anything about the valor system the you will understand what that means.

 

1- Actually, when you bring in other classes using it for a defensive purpose to reposition it makes the declick sound more appealing to me. But, I simply feel the talent is meant to be passive, automatic stun- and it's being used an active stun. True, as is, it has more skill component to it. Also- being used to make a cap almost sells me on it being useful- sorcs lack the burst to make caps, so if this is there one way to do it- well, good.

 

So, no, I don't really have a reason for it- I simply dislike the idea of declicking buffs for benefits to begin with and don't think any buff should be declickable, and think it was intended to be something at the 'end' of the bubble- either through it timing out or damage. In fact- if it's going to be actively used, it should be the sorc doing so- and reapplying a bubble would cause it instead of a click- that way at least the only active way to use it would be by the caster itself.

 

2- The stuns and CC is mostly silly because of the low TTK some classes have- ultimately though, this requires both the TTK and the CC to be fixed up- and I'm not going to start advocating for my class to lose it's CC superiority while the best TTK classes refuse to let anyone look at the problems with their side.

 

PT, smash juggs and mara just have too small of a TTK with too much pressure to prevent a good counter to them from being launched most of the time. Also- when you look at any mara abilities individually it doesn't look impressive- but when you stack up all their CC and utility and defensives it looks staggering in comparison, especially since they have abilities like charge which gap close, immobilize and interrupt all at once- very few other classes get such multi purpose abilities.

 

If we're going to look at CC- we can't just look at the stun bubbles- we have to look at other classes too. Simply put- it's not fair to entirely blame CC on sorcs when a carnage mara has two 3 second roots on 12 and 15 seconds CDs, and a third on a 27 second CD- and as that ignores resolve entirely its use can't be ignored. I play a carnage mara as my third class (after my pyro PT and of course, sorc)- and my lock up ability is simply unfair for a spec that is also doing great damage and has fantastic mobility and defensives.

 

If there's a nerf to bubble- the buffs in return have to be something for all specs. Hitting our group utility will need to come with a significant buff to our damage in madness and lightning, and more our survivability over our healing for corruption.

 

4- Overall damage means nothing- even if a sage does 500k to a mara doing 550k- a sage is doing slow damage without pressure, and any healer can and will outheal it, and any dps can and will destroy them. To top it off, that damage won't be getting a door cleared or a turret emptied. Damage at the end of the match is almost irrelevant- as someone who has your ranking you surely know how valuable burst is in pvp.

 

And no, I do not think marauders and snipers should have such a huge burst/pressure advantage. They do need something- but they have that. Marauders have very high defensives and utility, while snipers have an excellent cover system for protecting themselves. They do not need a burst boost as well, not one this large.

 

Fact is- I can be crushed by a marauders, but I have never lost 1v1 to a damage sorc of any kind as a healer, and I can yawn through healing even through two of them. There's a difference in burst potential that's fine- but right now the burst scales are heavily tipped one way.

 

I am a rank 70 sorc (I was rank 60 before 1.2 btw- so I did thoroughly pvp before that) and only rank 40ish on my mara- my mara, despite lack of experience, still feels ten times stronger than my sorc and more useful in most situations even with poorer gear.

[Eldriq]

Is this really that OP I mean in all the pvp matches I have played I have not once thought yea I won that fight with my bubble. Come on it is not like the bubble is all of a sudden causing matches to be won or lost. Most of these arguments are pretty farfetched and have a lot to do with "what if's". For months people have been complaining about the high burst damage classes and what did we get in response "l2p" with a list of our abilities that we could use against them. Never mattered that we could not even get off most of them before we were burned down. Now you hate the bubble because it is causing many classes to have to adjust there tactics.

 

Well that is how it is supposed to be adjust your tactics you have the abilities to break the bubble you have talent use it. Quit complaining about a bubble that is 95% used as a defensive mechanism. Yes you can break it early but I don't see a lot of people doing that so really how major of a situation is this? It is not like the sorcerers are going around in God Mode just one hitting people. The bubble works for the sorcerer and his teammates if someone has come up with a way to use it more efficiently and can find competent players to use those tactics then well good for them learn and adjust.