Please address lack of balance between DPS specs

[Marak]

Marak, would you like me to make an example where 5% difference leads to a wipe?

 

The question of validity of difference (RNG) is very interesting. How do you know 5% is within it and 10% outside?

 

Do you understand my point that ANY difference can be called "carrying" since some people do more DPS than others? And that it's a human decision as to where the differences become "carrying"?

 

If your argument is ultimately all DPS should do 100% damage, I can't say I would disagree with you. Failing that, yes my point is exactly the fact that 5% is minor enough to fall within the realm of RNG, Player Screwups, Gear, Whatever. I would say with some degree of confidence that my personal DPS will fluctuate 5% plus or minus for any given fight attempt. When you impose a 10% "penalty" then you start to notice quite a bit because you still have your +/- 5% fluctuation on top of the penalty. A 100% class that gets favored by the RNG gods ends up doing 105% for one attempt and Class B (with 10% penalty) gets shafted and does -5%-- now we're looking at 1275 vs 1575 (going with a 1500 average again), as opposed to say 1425.

 

300 DPS is significant. 75 is not so much. Is there an arbitrary line in the sand? Yeah I'd say a 10% range from top DPS to bottom DPS signifies a problem, assuming equal gear/equal content. We can't really include skill in this discussion because good players down content and bad players tend to not, so for sake of argument we're going to assume that everyone here is capable of doing what their class is capable of doing.

[SoonerJBD]

Marak, would you like me to make an example where 5% difference leads to a wipe?

 

The question of validity of difference (RNG) is very interesting. How do you know 5% is within it and 10% outside?

 

Do you understand my point that ANY difference can be called "carrying" since some people do more DPS than others? And that it's a human decision as to where the differences become "carrying"?

 

We can agree there is no black and white answer as to the percentage difference that is acceptable. Bioware defined it as 5 percent. Based on my own experience, that seems legitimate. I know that when I'm in a raid and one person is doing 10-15 percent less damage than the rest, it can lead to problems and potentially wipes if there aren't overgeared people to compensate for their lack of damage. That's carrying in my eyes. At less than 5 percent, it could be more an issue of mechanics. At more than 5 percent, you start looking at gear and spec.

[RDeanOU]

Marak, would you like me to make an example where 5% difference leads to a wipe?

 

The question of validity of difference (RNG) is very interesting. How do you know 5% is within it and 10% outside?

 

Do you understand my point that ANY difference can be called "carrying" since some people do more DPS than others? And that it's a human decision as to where the differences become "carrying"?

 

The fact remains that most people can do math well enough to understand that a 10% gap is twice as big as a 5% gap and pretending like there is little difference between those two numbers is hilariously ignorant.

 

You are trying to obfuscate the issue, but we didn't pull the 5% number out of a hat. The actual developers of the game set that target and that alone makes it meaningful. There will always be some measure of a gap. I think the vast majority of the community would find a 5% gap acceptable. I doubt the same could be said for a 10% gap.

 

You are pulling us way off topic. Despite your claims to the contrary this is not within the scope of the original discussion the OP wanted to have. It isn't your thread. If you want to make a thread questioning the validity of the 5% target that the Devs set then by all means make your own thread in order to pursue that discussion.

[lklinga]

I'm infiltration, in and end-game guild and I parse with the big boys. It's not nearly as bad as you make it seem. What is your actual sample size of the lower dps specs? Are you just basing it on what you read on here?

As someone that does statistics for living I can say most of the people have no idea ho to put together a decent sample and how to analyze the data then you get threads like this.

 

Theoretical DPS and Applied DPS the loss fo DPS sue to travel time for melee classes and all other variables are not present in training dummy dumps that I see most.

 

Also armor reduction versus internal damage numbers I did not see any proper numbers nor I want to.

I am not that much of a OCD

[Xenirath]

Let`s compare 2 melee classes = Marauder / Sentinel and Operative / Scoundrel . Let`s further compare any PvE specs for them.

 

I have chosen them because they are both melee classes.

 

From a sample of 500 logs, the average should be within the 5% margin; because that will have included static / on the move / downtime / bad rotations already.

 

And right now.. they aren`t. Math doesn`t lie.. and it is really utopic to think that ALL 500 maras are really good players and all 500 operatives are poor. So, it IS the class

 

Unless you show me hard numbers that say that a scoundrel can't be within 5% I call BS.

 

Are scoundrels likely to do less dmg than a marauder? Maybe, but is the scoundrel going into cover to use his ranged abilities which believe it or not are still good to use while the melee attacks are on CD? Probably not because most scoundrels think like you do that scoundrels are only Melee.

[Wraiven]

We can agree there is no black and white answer as to the percentage difference that is acceptable. Bioware defined it as 5 percent. Based on my own experience, that seems legitimate. I know that when I'm in a raid and one person is doing 10-15 percent less damage than the rest, it can lead to problems and potentially wipes if there aren't overgeared people to compensate for their lack of damage. That's carrying in my eyes. At less than 5 percent, it could be more an issue of mechanics. At more than 5 percent, you start looking at gear and spec.

 

This. ^

 

When you start hitting the enrage timer in which causes wipes, you start to look at the DPS charts on MOX to determine where your weakest link is. Before you look, you already know it's going to be that Deception Assassin or Operative. It never fails.

[MariaD]

We can agree there is no black and white answer as to the percentage difference that is acceptable.

 

Yes, let's agree on that.

 

So the statement below is, as you wrote several times, in your own eyes, and in the eyes of the developer who made the 5% statement. I want to highlight this fact for other people in this thread. It's not a universal agreement.

 

For illustrative purposes only, I will change the statement below to reflect different numbers.

 

I know that when I'm in a raid and one person is doing 10-15 percent less damage than the rest, it can lead to problems and potentially wipes if there aren't overgeared people to compensate for their lack of damage. That's carrying in my eyes. At less than 5 percent, it could be more an issue of mechanics. At more than 5 percent, you start looking at gear and spec.

 

Changed statement:

I know that when I'm in a raid and one person is doing 5-8 percent less damage than the rest, it can lead to problems and potentially wipes if there aren't overgeared people to compensate for their lack of damage. That's carrying in my eyes. At less than 2.5 percent, it could be more an issue of mechanics. At more than 2.5 percent, you start looking at gear and spec.

 

Where "you" start looking at gear and spec depends on who you are. The answer to this question separates the shades of hardcore and casual raiders.

 

My guess at the answer to your original question about BW decisions is that they went with more casual balance.

[MariaD]

You are pulling us way off topic. Despite your claims to the contrary this is not within the scope of the original discussion the OP wanted to have. It isn't your thread. If you want to make a thread questioning the validity of the 5% target that the Devs set then by all means make your own thread in order to pursue that discussion.

 

Meta-discussion is always off-topic. I will discuss content with you, but not participants' qualities, fine or sour aspects of the thread's style, or who should "get out" of the discussion. I don't know what a good place for meta is in these parts - probably PMs - but I won't do it within threads other than saying this once.

[MariaD]

If your argument is ultimately all DPS should do 100% damage, I can't say I would disagree with you. Failing that, yes my point is exactly the fact that 5% is minor enough to fall within the realm of RNG, Player Screwups, Gear, Whatever. I would say with some degree of confidence that my personal DPS will fluctuate 5% plus or minus for any given fight attempt.

 

Let's do some math with your statements here.

 

What math can show that 5% being within RNG is A FACT? Until mathematically proven, I call it a value judgment.

 

In particular, I can see how you can measure fluctuations for yourself. Researchers who measure reaction times on small routine tasks show that different subjects have different fluctuations. Depression or alcohol can bring numbers down 30-40%. Just being tired, or very minor distractions like a kid in the same room, can cause 10-20% differences. I know my fluctuations are much larger than 5% (I measured) and I can predict my DPS or TPS (I mostly tank) dropping, say, 15% or so if I play past midnight, compared to 8pm. I have seen larger fluctuations like this on raid parsers, when the raid goes over 3 hours or so, too.

 

I would VERY MUCH like to see where the developer who named 5% got it. Where are YOU getting it? If "5% is within RNG" is a fact, how can we prove it mathematically?

[RDeanOU]

Yes, let's agree on that.

 

So the statement below is, as you wrote several times, in your own eyes, and in the eyes of the developer who made the 5% statement. I want to highlight this fact for other people in this thread. It's not a universal agreement.

 

For illustrative purposes only, I will change the statement below to reflect different numbers.

 

 

 

Changed statement:

I know that when I'm in a raid and one person is doing 5-8 percent less damage than the rest, it can lead to problems and potentially wipes if there aren't overgeared people to compensate for their lack of damage. That's carrying in my eyes. At less than 2.5 percent, it could be more an issue of mechanics. At more than 2.5 percent, you start looking at gear and spec.

 

Where "you" start looking at gear and spec depends on who you are. The answer to this question separates the shades of hardcore and casual raiders.

 

My guess at the answer to your original question about BW decisions is that they went with more casual balance.

 

The target according to the devs is within 5%. that means we should be shooting for 3%-5%. If you can't understand that 10%-12% is unacceptably off of that mark and you can't understand how that kind of gap isn't acceptable for an OPS group trying to push and do the most difficult content then I question if you have ever played at the highest level in any MMO.

 

You can keep trying to cloud this issue all you want, but 3%-5% is acceptable variance. The devs say so and the community seems to accept that. 10% -12% is way way off that mark.

[Griad]

Have to say my lethality specced operative, with rakata/BH gear is atm running a solid 1400-1500 dps which is fine for most raids at the moment i have no doubt that i will never do as much DPS as my vengence specced jug, but i still have some minor benefits the self healing, the combat rez, the stealth rez.

 

For some reason i dont feel that we all need to be so close as long as the raids allow for some dps head room and they do, even though i am not topping or as close as 5% of top dps i am still a valuable asset for the group and that is why i keep getting invited.

[BogyOne]

I see that OP is very good in stats and since I like numbers plus being able to work in SimC is one of my unrealized wishes - big respects.

 

I still have different point of view on imbalance of DPS. I believe that there should be (even significant) differences in DPS outputs of individual ACs but the end effect - DPS in Ops boss scenario should gather them all in pocket of 5%.

 

Simulation and dummy pounding simply do not translate 1:1 to real action:

- melee does not have 30m range of attacks so the effective time DPSing is shorter but on the other hand...

- melee can use their DPS abilities on the move while ranged need to be stationary.

 

Besides that I think that hybrid's DPS specs output should not be in 5% range of pure DPS ACs only because they do not have offspec that allows to play different role while playing same toon. They forsake this flexibility to excel at DPS and premiership should be theirs (personal opinion). From what I read the top DPS now is hybrid - Vanguard/Powertech.

 

Then comes the matter of data selection e.g. Sents/Maras are top dpsers in your research while I had impression from posts on forum that top DPSers are Vanguard/Powertechs (so hybrids, sic!) and found this thread: ToFN DPS Leaderboard. I have not read through this entire thread yet but haven't seen relation to Vanguard/Powertechs so far.

 

So what simulation says about theoretical position of Vanguard/Powertechs against that leaderboard? Probably that driver is more important than the car.

 

Regards, Bogy

 

PS. Apologies but I read again the first page and since I have not seen reference to troopers DPS I really get impression that the sample population is lacking...

Edited October 30, 2012 by BogyOne

[snoopdogbaby]

Totally my opinion. I have no proof to back it up aside from my own sense.

 

I don't know if it's been covered because I'm too lazy to read through 11+ pages of responses, trolling, and off topic discussions, but I will say that it's pretty obvious, at least to me, why Gunslinger, sniper, sentinel, and marauder have higher DPS than the rest.

 

It's because they are PURE DPS. They cannot tank, they cannot heal. If you haven't noticed, Assassins, Shadows, Vanguards, Powertechs, Guardians, and Juggernauts generally have higher survivability no matter what spec they're using. Just like no matter what, sages, sorcerors, mercenaries, commandos, operatives, and scoundrels have mild healing capabilities no matter what they spec themselves as.

 

In my opinion, that's why the first four I mentioned are better at DPS. Because unlike the other ACs, they can't do anything else.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Totally my opinion. I have no proof to back it up aside from my own sense.

 

I don't know if it's been covered because I'm too lazy to read through 11+ pages of responses, trolling, and off topic discussions, but I will say that it's pretty obvious, at least to me, why Gunslinger, sniper, sentinel, and marauder have higher DPS than the rest.

 

It's because they are PURE DPS. They cannot tank, they cannot heal. If you haven't noticed, Assassins, Shadows, Vanguards, Powertechs, Guardians, and Juggernauts generally have higher survivability no matter what spec they're using. Just like no matter what, sages, sorcerors, mercenaries, commandos, operatives, and scoundrels have mild healing capabilities no matter what they spec themselves as.

 

In my opinion, that's why the first four I mentioned are better at DPS. Because unlike the other ACs, they can't do anything else.

 

Prepare to be flamed all to hell because you are using common sense. For some reason, the number crunchers can't grasp that simple concept around their head of why non-pure DPS specs fall behind. Their reasoning is that when they do an OP, they don't use those other "off" abilities, so they should have equal or very close to equal DPS as a Pure DPS. Well. I'm sorry to say that just because you choose not to use all your tools available, doesn't mean you need to have the same damage output as a Pure DPS AC. And I'm pretty sure the devs see it the same way.

 

But go ahead.. Keep living in the matrix. All the graphs, charts, parses and numbers in the world isn't going to change the fact that you are a hybrid DPS and not a "pure".

[Lostpenguins]

Have to say my lethality specced operative, with rakata/BH gear is atm running a solid 1400-1500 dps which is fine for most raids at the moment i have no doubt that i will never do as much DPS as my vengence specced jug, but i still have some minor benefits the self healing, the combat rez, the stealth rez.

 

For some reason i dont feel that we all need to be so close as long as the raids allow for some dps head room and they do, even though i am not topping or as close as 5% of top dps i am still a valuable asset for the group and that is why i keep getting invited.

Um, you basically said the worst dps class in the game will never do as much as the second worst dps class in this game.

 

And, to be brutally honest, you would never get a spot in our raids. There's 0 reasons to bring a dps Operative. You're going to pull about 30% less dps than the rest of the group. Your self-heals are sort of useless as they don't heal for much. If we're relying on our dps to help heal, then our healers are not doing their jobs. That's like expecting the healers to DPS. Combat rez's limiting factor is the 5 minute debuff it puts on the group/operation, not the number of people you have who can cast it. We already have dps sorcs, and mercs who can do that and far out dps an operative. Plus we could have the healers do it as a secondary option if the dps rez'ers can't. Out of combat rez is a gimic. We have an op healer who can do that, but this shouldn't be relied upon. The fact that you bring a serious lack of dps is not compensated by a gimic play that is used so rarely. In the bulk of your fights, you won't need to rez someone. If your'e constantly relying on 2 rez's a fight, you're probably doing something wrong.

 

I know it sounds harsh, but I'm just giving you the reality. Juggs and Ops dps are far behind and utility is almost never an excuse for letting it be that way. There's nothing really needed from Juggs and Ops in DPS mode that can't be done by someone else in the group who is more efficient. Need a dps to taunt? You can do that with a DPS Powertech or a DPS Sin. Need out of combat rez? A Sin or Ops Healer can do it. Need a combat rez? DPS/Heal Sorcs, DPS/Heal Mercs, and Heal Ops can all do it.

 

Utilities should make someone more enticing to bring, not be an excuse as to why they perform so low for the role they are filling.

[Lostpenguins]

Totally my opinion. I have no proof to back it up aside from my own sense.

 

I don't know if it's been covered because I'm too lazy to read through 11+ pages of responses, trolling, and off topic discussions, but I will say that it's pretty obvious, at least to me, why Gunslinger, sniper, sentinel, and marauder have higher DPS than the rest.

 

It's because they are PURE DPS. They cannot tank, they cannot heal. If you haven't noticed, Assassins, Shadows, Vanguards, Powertechs, Guardians, and Juggernauts generally have higher survivability no matter what spec they're using. Just like no matter what, sages, sorcerors, mercenaries, commandos, operatives, and scoundrels have mild healing capabilities no matter what they spec themselves as.

 

In my opinion, that's why the first four I mentioned are better at DPS. Because unlike the other ACs, they can't do anything else.

Sorry, but this assessment isn't very accurate. If you think a Powertech or a Jugg has more survivability in a DPS role than a Marauder, you're fooling yourself.

 

And if you're relying on a DPS'er to throw some heals out, then you're doing it wrong. Either your healers need to get better or your DPS are taking too much damage that the healers can't keep up. As I said in my previous post, "Relying on your dps'ers to heal is as silly as relying on your healers to dps." And let's not forget that a dps'er who is healing, isn't dps'ing anymore. Now they've just become a subpar healer who's going to go oom shortly. No fight in this game is balanced around a dps'er off-healing during a fight. So, in the end, you're wasting that spot by filling it with a subpar "hybrid taxed" class when you can just fill it a proper dps'er.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[Uncommonname]

Totally my opinion. I have no proof to back it up aside from my own sense.

 

I don't know if it's been covered because I'm too lazy to read through 11+ pages of responses, trolling, and off topic discussions, but I will say that it's pretty obvious, at least to me, why Gunslinger, sniper, sentinel, and marauder have higher DPS than the rest.

 

It's because they are PURE DPS. They cannot tank, they cannot heal. If you haven't noticed, Assassins, Shadows, Vanguards, Powertechs, Guardians, and Juggernauts generally have higher survivability no matter what spec they're using. Just like no matter what, sages, sorcerors, mercenaries, commandos, operatives, and scoundrels have mild healing capabilities no matter what they spec themselves as.

 

In my opinion, that's why the first four I mentioned are better at DPS. Because unlike the other ACs, they can't do anything else.

 

I understand your thought process but consider that raiding is ALL about min/maxing. This means that the concept of hybrid does not exist in a raid context (at least as raids are currently designed). If you are assigned a DPS role, your job is to kill the target faster than a) an enrage mechanic or b) a mechanic that wears down a healers resource pool. If there is someone that can do that job significantly better, you have no place in a progression raid.

 

Consider that WoW went through this debate with Paladins for years and ultimately their devs there reached the conclusion that the concept of hybrid does not work in a min/max raid. There used to be fights that required a bit of extra healing or another off tank - I assume this was meant to allow hybrids to shine. Instead, raid groups that had difficulty merely brought an extra "pure class" for that single fight and subbed people in and out accordingly.

 

In terms of "Utility" - the ONLY utility skill that is effective in EVERY fight is held by sents/maras. Every other utility skills use is sporadic and gimmicky at best.

 

It took "other games" years, to figure out the "hybrid question". I hope this game and this community gets it right much earlier.

 

Bottom line: As long as enrage timers are meaningful on progression raids - you cant bring a dps that does "other things" at the cost of not hitting certain dps marks.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Uncommonname

[dipstik]

i know in a previsous post i said that scoundrel being 5% under sorcs and maras being 5% over was okay, but last night i was invited to a HMEC, and before we even went in the instance they started trash talking scoundrel dps. i told them i can keep 1600 up on the dummy with stim/buffs, but they told me that they could not carry a scoundrel dps... and they advertised the group as dread gaurd geared....

 

so this is a HUGE problem. I have found that there are at least 4 wasted points in both the dirty fighting and scrapper trees. i do not need my bleeds to be replaced by bleeds 85% weaker, and i dont need extra endurance, defense, stealth detection or any of that.

[Stenrik]

I think most people don't mind 5% lower for being a hybrid. People aren't asking for 100% equality. But 10%-15% is a big difference from 5%.

[SoonerJBD]

As someone that does statistics for living I can say most of the people have no idea ho to put together a decent sample and how to analyze the data then you get threads like this.

 

Theoretical DPS and Applied DPS the loss fo DPS sue to travel time for melee classes and all other variables are not present in training dummy dumps that I see most.

 

Also armor reduction versus internal damage numbers I did not see any proper numbers nor I want to.

I am not that much of a OCD

 

You might do statistics for a living, but you don't do reading comprehension very well. We aren't just talking about dummy numbers. We have actual parse numbers from actual fights where all of these variables are factored in and the gap still exists.

[SoonerJBD]

Totally my opinion. I have no proof to back it up aside from my own sense.

 

I don't know if it's been covered because I'm too lazy to read through 11+ pages of responses, trolling, and off topic discussions, but I will say that it's pretty obvious, at least to me, why Gunslinger, sniper, sentinel, and marauder have higher DPS than the rest.

 

It's because they are PURE DPS. They cannot tank, they cannot heal. If you haven't noticed, Assassins, Shadows, Vanguards, Powertechs, Guardians, and Juggernauts generally have higher survivability no matter what spec they're using. Just like no matter what, sages, sorcerors, mercenaries, commandos, operatives, and scoundrels have mild healing capabilities no matter what they spec themselves as.

.

 

If you had bothered to read some of the other responses, you would have read then dismissed the comments pointing out the ridiculousness of this argument.

 

DPS Sages cannot heal. DPS Vanguards cannot tank. There is no such thing as a "pure" DPS class and a "hybrid" DPS. A DPS Vanguard that is not wearing tank gear and is not spec'd into the tanking tree won't last 10 seconds in a tanking role on a high-end raid boss. They simply don't have the tools to do the job. A DPS Sage trying to heal has one casted heal that isn't strong enough to keep anyone up and costs so much that it is prohibitive to throw it except in the rarest of circumstances. If you do try to heal as a DPS, your healer will rightly yell at you to knock it off. Your time and force points are better used damaging the boss. If you are trying to heal, you will put your team in danger of hitting enrage.

 

In reality, the ability for a Vanguard to taunt or a Sage to throw a heal once or twice in a fight is a utility skill. The DPS taunt is nice in one or two fights like Firebrand and Stormcaller to deal with incinerate armor. A Sage might throw two heals in an 8-minute boss fight on the rare occasion where it is a benefit rather than a detriment to the team. But every class has its utility skills. Inspiration/Bloodlust is AT LEAST as beneficial as being able to taunt or throw a heal in a fight where it is useful. In many boss fights, that one ability is far more useful than any utility a Sage or Vanguard or Guardian brings to a fight.

 

TL;DR There are no pure DPS classes in PvE. All DPS are there to damage a boss and cannot fill the role of healer or tank unless they are spec'd that way. And Sentinels and Gunslingers have their own utility skills as well. It balances out. That is why DPS specs need to be within 5 percent of each other as the devs stated their goal.

[SoonerJBD]

Prepare to be flamed all to hell because you are using common sense. For some reason, the number crunchers can't grasp that simple concept around their head of why non-pure DPS specs fall behind. Their reasoning is that when they do an OP, they don't use those other "off" abilities, so they should have equal or very close to equal DPS as a Pure DPS. Well. I'm sorry to say that just because you choose not to use all your tools available, doesn't mean you need to have the same damage output as a Pure DPS AC. And I'm pretty sure the devs see it the same way.

 

But go ahead.. Keep living in the matrix. All the graphs, charts, parses and numbers in the world isn't going to change the fact that you are a hybrid DPS and not a "pure".

 

No, the devs said they intend for all DPS specs to be within 5 percent. And it's not a question of using the tools at your disposal. The issue is that these tools are utility skills that aren't worth what you suggest. Inspiration is worth at least as much if not more than a DPS Vanguard's taunt or a DPS SAge's heal. As a vanguard or guardian or shadow, if you aren't spec'd as a tank, you simply cannot tank. You can taunt, but all you are doing is marking yourself for death because you don't have the gear or the talent points to mitigate the damage a tank needs. You aren't an off tank just because you have a taunt. As a Sage or Commando or Scoundrel, unless you are spec'd as a healer, your healing sucks. You have one or two heals that are underpowered and drain your resources so fast that it is absolutely dumb to use it except in very rare circumstances where the mechanics allow it. The ability to taunt or heal as a DPS is a UTILITY skill in the same category as a Sentinel's Inspiration or a Gunslinger's group shield. In fact, Inspiration is a better utility skill in most boss fights than a taunt or a heal.

 

People who keep suggesting that there is such a thing as a "pure" DPS class simply don't understand how endgame PvE works.

[SoonerJBD]

For those of you who are under the mistaken impression that "hybrid" classes are intended to do less DPS than "pure" DPS classes, I will also point out that this argument doesn't hold up because the trroper/bounty hunter DPS specs are not gimped like Sorcs/Sages/Scoundrels.

[Monoth]

No, the devs said they intend for all DPS specs to be within 5 percent. And it's not a question of using the tools at your disposal. The issue is that these tools are utility skills that aren't worth what you suggest. Inspiration is worth at least as much if not more than a DPS Vanguard's taunt or a DPS SAge's heal. As a vanguard or guardian or shadow, if you aren't spec'd as a tank, you simply cannot tank. You can taunt, but all you are doing is marking yourself for death because you don't have the gear or the talent points to mitigate the damage a tank needs. You aren't an off tank just because you have a taunt. As a Sage or Commando or Scoundrel, unless you are spec'd as a healer, your healing sucks. You have one or two heals that are underpowered and drain your resources so fast that it is absolutely dumb to use it except in very rare circumstances where the mechanics allow it. The ability to taunt or heal as a DPS is a UTILITY skill in the same category as a Sentinel's Inspiration or a Gunslinger's group shield. In fact, Inspiration is a better utility skill in most boss fights than a taunt or a heal.

 

People who keep suggesting that there is such a thing as a "pure" DPS class simply don't understand how endgame PvE works.

 

The whole argument is stupid because like ALL MMO's the DPS Flavor of the Month will change from month to month as nerf bats continuously swing... Several months of ago Sorc DPS'ers were all powerful, then they got nerfed and Agent's and Smugglers became the Flavor of the Month, then they got nerfed and Sentinels/Marauders became the flavor of the month.... It's a endless marry go round, eventually the class your playing will be the flavor of the month....

 

To Expect all DPS classes to be the exact same is ludicrous, it's impossible to do without making all the classes exactly the same with the same play style.... Every Class is suppose to be played different because of this DPS is going to vary on the situation your in....

 

personally I think 10% is pretty good, i've seen a lot worse over the years in other MMO's.... Plus Bioware is continuously tweaking the classes....

 

Besides I have a feeling people would still be QQ'ing over a 5% difference....

Edited October 30, 2012 by Monoth

[SoonerJBD]

I see that OP is very good in stats and since I like numbers plus being able to work in SimC is one of my unrealized wishes - big respects.

 

I still have different point of view on imbalance of DPS. I believe that there should be (even significant) differences in DPS outputs of individual ACs but the end effect - DPS in Ops boss scenario should gather them all in pocket of 5%.

 

Simulation and dummy pounding simply do not translate 1:1 to real action:

- melee does not have 30m range of attacks so the effective time DPSing is shorter but on the other hand...

- melee can use their DPS abilities on the move while ranged need to be stationary.

 

The numbers from the sims are backed up from the real world parses. Torparse and AskMRRobot have thousands of uploaded parses which confirm these disparities. They aren't theoretical differences. The differences are evident in actual parses from actual boss fights. And they confirm what the sims have suggested.

 

Besides that I think that hybrid's DPS specs output should not be in 5% range of pure DPS ACs only because they do not have offspec that allows to play different role while playing same toon. They forsake this flexibility to excel at DPS and premiership should be theirs (personal opinion). From what I read the top DPS now is hybrid - Vanguard/Powertech.

 

I've covered the misconception about hybrid specs at length. If you still think a DPS Sage or Commando is a "hybrid" DPS class, I can't help you. You don't get how endgame PvE works. As for the sims and parses, they are both still showing Sentinels/Marauders and Snipers at the top with the trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs just below. Those classes are all within the 5 percent the devs have stated as their goal. We are mostly talking about Sorcs/Sages, Infiltration Shadows/Deception Assassins and Scoundrels, which are at the bottom of the heap.