Please address lack of balance between DPS specs

[SoonerJBD]

You can move the armorings and mods between your toons in legacy gear. You lose the set bonus in Battlemaster gear, but the set bonus moves with the War Hero armorings.

[SoonerJBD]

I'd like to say I totally agree with this quote, and believe it is true. An MMO company *does not want* balance. They *want* the imbalance. And they want it to constantly change. This is working as intended.

 

Imagine a company somehow managed to hit perfect balance! Everything was evenly matched and perfect, and there no longer was any need to change or patch anything. This would be a disaster to the company. Players would get to a "done" point with their mains and then drift to other games.

 

Thus constant patches and changes. Change for change's sake. To keep people playing. A normal game wants balance. An MMO wants people to play and pay nonstop, and that sadly requires imbalance.

 

Whatever their stated goal, they do not want actual balance. They want constantly shifting and changing imbalance. They want one class to be OP during one patch, and underpowered the next.

 

This is something I really learned with WoW, where you could practically chart which was the chosen class over time. Maras are OP and scoundrels UP? As intended. Just wait a few patches and it will change. Asking them to actually balance all the classes? To the company's eyes, that is asking for stagnation and eventual mass unsubscribing.

 

(If it matters, I casually play a healing sage and a DPS scoundrel, so for DPS I'm not thrilled with the current patch either.)

 

Once again, this is utter nonsense. Perfect balance is unachievable, but reasonable balance is the goal of every MMO which is why they are constantly making balance changes. Players who have spent dozens of hours leveling a toon to 50 only to find out they are doomed to sucking at end game content because their spec is gimped are likely to quit the game. This is why you almost never see a DPS Scoundrel in PvE. People come back for new content, not because you force them to play new classes with crappy balance. That kind of mentality is more likely to lose you subscribers. Only truly hardcore players are going to level a new character purely because it is a FOTM. Most players are going to get frustrated and stop playing.

[Andge]

I think this obsessing with dps is one-sided. Even when talking about dps-classes. Balancing dps-classes in PvE is not only a matter of giving them the same dps; a scoundrel can heal himself, which e.g. a marauder cannot. So to give the two classes equal chances in PvE fights, naturally the marauder must have a higher dps. If the two had the same dps, with the scoundrel still able to heal himself, the scroundrel would be totally op compared to the marauder.

I know some people will then say "I play scoundrel for the dps and don't want to be punished because I can also heal". Be that as it may, the scoundrel can still heal.

The only classes I have played to end-game so far is scoundrel and juggernaut. While in general fights with the scoundrel tend to be a bit more messy and less repetitive than with the juggernaut, the scoundrel's healing abilities and heartrigger ability has pulled me through fights where I'm sure the juggernaut would have failed.

The only game in which it would make sense to argue that all dps-classes should have the same dps, would be in a game where all dps-classes has the exact same healing skills, cc skills, health points, armor rating etc.

Which would be a totally lame game.

And all this dps data you have, during how long fights is the data collected? It doesn't help the marauder to have higher sustained dps than the scoundrel if the scoundrel has back-blasted and dirty kicked his mobs dead before the differences in sustained dps starts to show.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Andge

[Kiyoko-]

Once again, this is utter nonsense. Perfect balance is unachievable, but reasonable balance is the goal of every MMO which is why they are constantly making balance changes. Players who have spent dozens of hours leveling a toon to 50 only to find out they are doomed to sucking at end game content because their spec is gimped are likely to quit the game. This is why you almost never see a DPS Scoundrel in PvE. People come back for new content, not because you force them to play new classes with crappy balance. That kind of mentality is more likely to lose you subscribers. Only truly hardcore players are going to level a new character purely because it is a FOTM. Most players are going to get frustrated and stop playing.

 

Hello... I just don't agree. I don't think it is utter nonsense. Or even plain old nonsense.

 

I think results count, and you have to look at actions of people, not their words. People will say what sounds good or what they want to believe, but their actions show their revealed preference.

 

For MMOs, we have a lot of revealed preference to look at. And that shows lots of imbalance, and constant patches and change for change's sake. So I'm going to have to believe that is what they actually want. And it makes sense to me that they would want it, because unlike other games, MMOs do care that you sink lots of hours into playing them. They are designed to do so.

 

I'd be more likely to believe your position if we saw examples of well balanced MMOs. Instead we see imbalance and endless patches. Results and actual actions count.

 

I'm willing to agree to disagree though. It's just the actual actions of the developers don't match your position. They match a desire for imbalance. Your position isn't unreasonable though. I won't even call it utter nonsense, but I try to be polite that way.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Kiyoko-

[HoboWithAStick]

Knowing that some classes are more then above the 5% dps diff that bioware promised is very annoying I agree however none of the classes are more then 10% above one another. I can almost keep up to marauders and GOOD snipers on my sorc (played with a billion bad snipers and crush them) and as we all know sorc is the lowest dps in the game. I really hate to say it but I think this is more of a learn to play thing.

 

What you have to realize is that sent/maur, gunslingers/snipers should be doing the most damage without question, they are a dps class ONLY. Classes that have a tank tree that are dps should be next and then your heals/dps guys should be last. Its set up like that for a reason though, imagine the huge imbalance if your best dps could heal or just randomly tank?

 

I know that balancing around pvp is annoying but for the most part it works (excluding op dps which has been screwed every step of the way)

 

So think about it like this for DPS

 

DPS classes

Marauder-Biggest single target Dps in the game, bad aoe damage outside of smash spec.

Snipers- Good single target dps and best aoe damage in the game.

 

Tank Claases in dps (Possible Offtanks for PVE and taunts for protection in pvp)

 

Assassin- Best Burst dps in the game, Decent off tank cooldowns, Really bad aoe damage

Jug- Good single target damage, bad aoe damage, Best offtanking cooldowns

Powertechs- 2ndr 3rd best single target dps in the game, good aoe damage, Worst offtanking cooldowns.

 

Healing classes in dps (Heals offer great raid support, Great utility for PVP)

 

Sorc, Worst Single target dps in the game, Great AOE damage 2nd to snipers, best offheals support.

Merc, Good single target dps, Good aoe damage, Good offheal support

Op, 2nd best burst dps in the game, Great AOE damage, Poor offheals Support.

When I say offheals I mean that class in full dps spec.

 

So if you look at things like that you will notice that no class is best in everything and everyone has something to offer even if that does mean being consistant. I know not everyone is going to agree with what I've listed but what I am trying to say is the class balance is actually not that bad. and like bioware said there will be more levels by the end of the year (Lets hope they stay true to that) so I'm guessing there will be some nice changes at that point and could be why you don't see them doing allot of changes right now.

[SoonerJBD]

I think this obsessing with dps is one-sided. Even when talking about dps-classes. Balancing dps-classes in PvE is not only a matter of giving them the same dps; a scoundrel can heal himself, which e.g. a marauder cannot. So to give the two classes equal chances in PvE fights, naturally the marauder must have a higher dps. If the two had the same dps, with the scoundrel still able to heal himself, the scroundrel would be totally op compared to the marauder.

I know some people will then say "I play scoundrel for the dps and don't want to be punished because I can also heal". Be that as it may, the scoundrel can still heal.

The only game in which it would make sense to argue that all dps-classes should have the same dps, would be in a game where all dps-classes has the exact same healing skills, cc skills, health points, armor rating etc.

Which would be a totally lame game.

And all this dps data you have, during how long fights is the data collected? It doesn't help the marauder to have higher sustained dps than the scoundrel if the scoundrel has back-blasted and dirty kicked his mobs dead before the differences in sustained dps starts to show.

 

Please try to have some concept of what you are talking about before you post. We are NOT TALKING ABOUT PVP. This is a PvE discussion. A DPS Scoundrel is not healing in PvE. A DPS who is healing himself if PVE is not doing his job and is putting his raid in serious danger of hitting enrage. Same for a DPS Sage. People who make comments like this clearly PvP primarily and do not understand how end game PvE works. Healers heal the raid. The only job of a DPS in PvE is to kill mobs. If you are off-healing, you are not only losing the DPS you should be doing while casting the heal, you are wasting energy, which will gimp your DPS even further. Healers heal the raid. DPS kill the boss. If a DPS is healing himself, the healers will rightly yell at them. It's not their job.

 

Every class has utility skills, be they a self heal, stealth, defensive cooldowns or whatever. Marauders get bloodlust, which most raid groups value way more than anything a DPS Scoundrel could bring to the table. Utility skills are meant to encourage raid groups to bring along a diverse group of classes. But that doesn't happen when some classes have much higher DPS and similar utility.

 

As for the parses, they represent full boss fights, which is the only thing that matters in end-game PvE.

[SoonerJBD]

Hello... I just don't agree. I don't think it is utter nonsense. Or even plain old nonsense.

 

I think results count, and you have to look at actions of people, not their words. People will say what sounds good or what they want to believe, but their actions show their revealed preference.

 

For MMOs, we have a lot of revealed preference to look at. And that shows lots of imbalance, and constant patches and change for change's sake. So I'm going to have to believe that is what they actually want. And it makes sense to me that they would want it, because unlike other games, MMOs do care that you sink lots of hours into playing them. They are designed to do so.

 

I'd be more likely to believe your position if we saw examples of well balanced MMOs. Instead we see imbalance and endless patches. Results and actual actions count.

 

I'm willing to agree to disagree though. It's just the actual actions of the developers don't match your position. They match a desire for imbalance. Your position isn't unreasonable though. I won't even call it utter nonsense, but I try to be polite that way.

 

The problem is that your theory is devoid of logic. You are making assumptions and leaps in logic that are just mind-bogglingly unbelievable. The developers have told us their balance target. So your theory first requires that we accept the developers are deliberately lying. This is far less believable than the conclusion that balance is difficult to achieve, which is the reality.

 

We then have to look at the fact that MMOs continue to patch and conclude it is because they want imbalance, which makes no sense. This is the exact opposite of why they patch. They patch because they are trying to balance. I know this might be hard for you to accept, but balancing unique classes is hard, especially when you are constantly introducing new content, raising level caps and adding abilities.

 

Third, your theory doesn't follow common sense. Imbalance, especially glaring imbalance, is one of the main reasons people stop playing MMOs. If the developers want to stay employed, they have a very strong motivation to keep classes as balanced as possible to avoid frustrating their customers to the point where they unsubscribe.

 

To use an analogy, what you are suggesting is akin to saying Chevrolet deliberately makes Impalas that breakdown because they want you to also buy a Chevy Cruz. The reality is that if a car breaks down often, you are much less likely to buy another car from that company. You are more likely to buy a Honda.

[Andge]

Please try to have some concept of what you are talking about before you post. We are NOT TALKING ABOUT PVP. This is a PvE discussion. A DPS Scoundrel is not healing in PvE. A DPS who is healing himself if PVE is not doing his job and is putting his raid in serious danger of hitting enrage. Same for a DPS Sage. People who make comments like this clearly PvP primarily and do not understand how end game PvE works. Healers heal the raid. The only job of a DPS in PvE is to kill mobs. If you are off-healing, you are not only losing the DPS you should be doing while casting the heal, you are wasting energy, which will gimp your DPS even further. Healers heal the raid. DPS kill the boss. If a DPS is healing himself, the healers will rightly yell at them. It's not their job.

 

Every class has utility skills, be they a self heal, stealth, defensive cooldowns or whatever. Marauders get bloodlust, which most raid groups value way more than anything a DPS Scoundrel could bring to the table. Utility skills are meant to encourage raid groups to bring along a diverse group of classes. But that doesn't happen when some classes have much higher DPS and similar utility.

 

As for the parses, they represent full boss fights, which is the only thing that matters in end-game PvE.

 

My mistake (or yours actually). I was not aware of the underlining assumption that this discussion was only about raids.

The problem in balancing dps-classes in PvE is that a dps-class's healing abilties become "useless" at level cap; e.g. a scoundrel's healing abilities has to be taken into account when "balancing" dps compared to a marauder during level-up.

At level 50, then the dps-scoundrel's healing abilities suddently become "useless" to him as he participates in raids, and the "punishment" he receives in dps because of his healing abilities suddently become unfair.

 

I agree that in raids the scoundrel's dps is somewhat of a problem.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Andge

[Marak]

Again, I state to those that living in the theoretical--

 

The proof is in the population numbers.

 

You can argue all day until you are blue in the face about pures vs hybrids or whatever, but at the end of the day there is a problem if an entire class stops playing. There are less than a handful of main-class Operatives/Scoundrels on each server. An even smaller number of those mains actually main spec DPS for PvE. This is a design problem.

 

There needs to be an incentive for people to play things other than Maras and Snipers. Right now there isn't any. There is no such thing as off-healing in this game. If heals were instant cast and cost no resources but healed for less we'd be able to discuss off-healing, but as it is currently there is zero incentive to even toss out heals if you are DPS'ing. 2.5 second cast times for heals that barely heal for anything means you are just better off trying to kill the boss before it kills you. You can't just start healing and act like its utility when its blatantly detrimental to your role.

 

The argument is "hybrids shouldn't be as good as pures because then nobody would bring pures!" doesn't mean you should balance the game to where pures are so much better than hybrids that you never bring hybrids.

 

It's not fun gameplay being the class that brings no intrinsic value to a raid group. And that's why no one plays Operatives and Scoundrels anymore. This needs changed.

[SoonerJBD]

Knowing that some classes are more then above the 5% dps diff that bioware promised is very annoying I agree however none of the classes are more then 10% above one another. I can almost keep up to marauders and GOOD snipers on my sorc (played with a billion bad snipers and crush them) and as we all know sorc is the lowest dps in the game. I really hate to say it but I think this is more of a learn to play thing.

 

What you have to realize is that sent/maur, gunslingers/snipers should be doing the most damage without question, they are a dps class ONLY. Classes that have a tank tree that are dps should be next and then your heals/dps guys should be last. Its set up like that for a reason though, imagine the huge imbalance if your best dps could heal or just randomly tank?

 

I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. First off, Sorcerers are not the lowest DPS in the game. Scoundrels are the lowest DPS in the game. This is apparent both from SimC results and from the thousands of parses available on combat logging sites.

 

Secondly, it's not a learn to play thing. If you do go look at the ranked parses on Torparse, one of the few Sages you will see on the top parses for several operations is mine. Br'yn, from the Harbinger.

 

Third, and I've made this point several times, all DPS specs are pure DPS in PvE. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand how endgame PvE works. A DPS Vanguard cannot off-tank. Without the points in the tanking tree or tanking gear, they won't last five seconds in a tough boss fight. Similarly, a DPS Sage or Scoundrel cannot effectively off-heal and should only do so in extremely rare circumstances. If you are healing as a DPS, you are killing your team. Healing isn't your job and doing so puts your group in danger of hitting enrage. Yes, the ability to throw an off-heal in rare circumstances where it won't hurt your team is a utility skill. But so is a Sentinel's Inspiration and the group shield Gunslingers can drop. People who heavily raid know that Inspiration is a far better utility skill than a Sage's ability to throw an off heal. Those utility skills are supposed to serve a a reason to bring a variety of classes along on a raid. But that doesn't work when the DPS potential between the classes is too far out of balance, which it clearly is.

[SoonerJBD]

My mistake (or yours actually). I was not aware of the underlining assumption that this discussion was only about raids.

The problem in balancing dps-classes in PvE is that a dps-class's healing abilties become "useless" at level cap; e.g. a scoundrel's healing abilities has to be taken into account when "balancing" dps compared to a marauder during level-up.

At level 50, then the dps-scoundrel's healing abilities suddently become "useless" to him as he participates in raids, and the "punishment" he receives in dps because of his healing abilities suddently become unfair.

 

I agree that in raids the scoundrel's dps is somewhat of a problem.

 

MMOs are never balanced around leveling. The vast majority of the content is in the end-game, and it is the only place where you are doing missions with large groups where these percentages matter. And it is clearly the issue the devs were addressing with the 5 percent discussion and the only thing people are concerned with when they complain about DPS balancing.

 

Frankly, the ease of leveling has much more to do with your role. Leveling a DPS is way easier than leveling a tank or healer because you kill things much faster. That's why many people rolling a tank or healer don't level that way.

[Marak]

So I just checked torparse.com

 

There isn't a single Operative or Scoundrel in the top 50 on any fight in 8 OR 16 HM (or SM) TFB.

 

Clearly you guys can see this as being a problem. Right? Like how is this even up for debate anymore?

Edited October 28, 2012 by Marak

[PoliteAssasin]

Devs said months ago that all DPS specs are intended to be within 5 percent of each other in PvE. This is clearly not the case. Parses and SimC data all show that Sentinels, Marauders, Snipers and Gunslingers parse at the top. The trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs are slightly behind. Shadows/Assasins can parse well with balance/madness spec but infiltration and deception are still far too low on PvE. DPS Sages/Sorcs are roughly 10 percent behind the top specs with Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid.

 

This has been brought up repeatedly on the forums with no response whatsoever from the developers. There have been two major patches since parse data began showing these disparities with another on the PTS right now. Balance changes have been made for PvP, but there has been no effort to address the disparity between DPS specs in PvE. Is it still the developers' intent to have all DPS specs be within 5 percent of each other in PvE? If so, why aren't changes being made to address the fact that this is clearly not happening?

 

You're testing the wrong people if troopers and bountyhunters are falling behind. Don't blame someone's lack of gear/skill on Bioware. Gotta love it when people make excuses for their own shortcomings.

[SoonerJBD]

You're testing the wrong people if troopers and bountyhunters are falling behind. Don't blame someone's lack of gear/skill on Bioware. Gotta love it when people make excuses for their own shortcomings.

 

Troopers and Bounty Hunters do fine. They are within the 5 percent the devs stated as their goal. They can parse higher than a Sentinel or Sniper depending on the mechanics of the encounter. Sages/Sorcerers are outside that 5 percent and Scoundrels are FAR outside that 5 percent. That is where the legitimate complaints are.

 

There are specs for certain classes that also don't do as well, but I'm less concerned about that than I am classes where no specs parse competitively.

[SoonerJBD]

So I just checked torparse.com

 

There isn't a single Operative or Scoundrel in the top 50 on any fight in 8 OR 16 HM (or SM) TFB.

 

Clearly you guys can see this as being a problem. Right? Like how is this even up for debate anymore?

 

Because people will argue the sky isn't blue. Personally, I'm happy to keep discussing the issue with people who don't want to accept fact. The more people who don't get it question the numbers, the longer the thread gets, the longer it stays on the front page of general discussion and the better chance the devs might actually respond to the issue finally.

[PoliteAssasin]

Troopers and Bounty Hunters do fine. They are within the 5 percent the devs stated as their goal. They can parse higher than a Sentinel or Sniper depending on the mechanics of the encounter. Sages/Sorcerers are outside that 5 percent and Scoundrels are FAR outside that 5 percent. That is where the legitimate complaints are.

 

There are specs for certain classes that also don't do as well, but I'm less concerned about that than I am classes where no specs parse competitively.

 

But even that is false. Sages/Scoundrels and their imperial counterparts are fine as well. Again, you are testing the wrong people. People who are either unskilled, or undergeared. Of course people who meet that criteria, and there are many, will fall way behind those who are well geared and skilled. Bioware has tested this, they would know better than you. You sound like one of those QQers who want godmode sages and scoundrels back. Not going to happen.

[Danbuterx]

I hope NO changes are made based upon PvP. There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to change a class because it sucks in PvP, if the class works fine in PvE.

[Marak]

But even that is false. Sages/Scoundrels and their imperial counterparts are fine as well. Again, you are testing the wrong people. People who are either unskilled, or undergeared. Of course people who meet that criteria, and there are many, will fall way behind those who are well geared and skilled. Bioware has tested this, they would know better than you. You sound like one of those QQers who want godmode sages and scoundrels back. Not going to happen.

 

Go to torparse.com and tell me when you find an operative or scoundrel. They don't even have to be near the top. Even the bottom would be a good start. There's generally about a 20% range from 1-50 per fight. We'll wait.

[Ansalem]

Go to torparse.com and tell me when you find an operative or scoundrel. They don't even have to be near the top. Even the bottom would be a good start. There's generally about a 20% range from 1-50 per fight. We'll wait.

 

hey not all players upload to torparse.com. Hell I dont think Ive ever used torparse.com for anything other than test dummy testing. Don't try to base your theory off 2 websites when not everyone is even using them.

[PoliteAssasin]

Go to torparse.com and tell me when you find an operative or scoundrel. They don't even have to be near the top. Even the bottom would be a good start. There's generally about a 20% range from 1-50 per fight. We'll wait.

 

Yeah because everyone uses that site. Go ahead and keep waiting.

Edited October 28, 2012 by PoliteAssasin

[Marak]

No not everyone uses it. But that's not how sample sizes and the law of averages work. Torparse gives us a sampling of the raiding community. Of that sampling we can clearly see that one of two things is happening-- no operatives are there to parse or they are parsing, but not high enough to break the top 50.

 

Both are a problem.

[Chaori]

While I agree that Operative/Scoundrel, Sage/Sorc and Shadow/Assassin DPS is lower than other classes, as a raid leader I would not refuse to bring one of these classes to any raid. If the player tells me they are confident they can pull their weight that is good enough for me. One of my guild's raid groups has 3 sorcs and doesn't even run with a Marauder/Sentinel and they are clearing content fine.

 

The game in its current state is easy enough to be cleared with any raid composition - however I would like for the lower DPS to be brought up so people that choose to play them don't feel outshined by the high-dps classes (looking at Powertechs here).

[HoboWithAStick]

There are no top dps ops on torparse because the community has this stupid notion that they all suck thus none of them being allowed to go into raids thus meaning there are very very few geared op dps on any of the servers and on top of that its one of the harder classes in the game to play.

 

If you take a sorc and an op both in similar gear and play skill the op will win the single target dps fight everytime.

[Marak]

There are no top dps ops on torparse because the community has this stupid notion that they all suck thus none of them being allowed to go into raids thus meaning there are very very few geared op dps on any of the servers and on top of that its one of the harder classes in the game to play.

 

If you take a sorc and an op both in similar gear and play skill the op will win the single target dps fight everytime.

 

I have a campaign geared Op and a BH/campaignish geared Sage and I deny this. An Op will do better on the dummy, sure, but the rotation doesn't transfer over to real raids well, as it's far too tight. Movement, target switching, whatever will really tank your energy efficiency.

 

Sages only real setback is mobility. Target switching and whatnot don't hurt them nearly as much.

[PoliteAssasin]

No not everyone uses it. But that's not how sample sizes and the law of averages work. Torparse gives us a sampling of the raiding community. Of that sampling we can clearly see that one of two things is happening-- no operatives are there to parse or they are parsing, but not high enough to break the top 50.

 

Both are a problem.

 

How is it a problem that people choose not to use the site? It's simply not representative of reality at all. Just because some people who play those classes in PVE suck at it doesn't mean everyone does.