monkgryphon Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I'm a raider, y'know a PVE'r? I have absolutely no Expertise, and no care whatsoever for PvP concepts. So when I try to get my first piece of HK-51 from Outlaws Den, I'm getting ganked by 10+ 'pubs. This isn't enjoyable, this isn't fun (to me) and I thought I joined a PVE server for a PVE Experience? If I wanted to be ganked by a bunch of die-hard PVP'rs I woulda joined a PvP server. Good going Bioware. Way to hold PVE'rs back from one of your content releases. And you WONDER why your Subs plummet so much. It's not just pubs that you have to deal with. Outlaws Den is free for ALL Also, I am a PVPer, why do I have to do 2 flashpoints to get the pieces. I don't do flashpoints, I just do PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leopagne Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 It's not just pubs that you have to deal with. Outlaws Den is free for ALL Also, I am a PVPer, why do I have to do 2 flashpoints to get the pieces. I don't do flashpoints, I just do PVP. Well played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillCaedes Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Hmmmm. That's funny. I had no problems getting it and there were two groups of Pubs and Imps there that were red to me. They left me alone and I left them alone. I wasn't left alone at all, I walk in try to get to the vendor, all of a sudden I've got the 'pubs on me. Over, and over and over. This was a poorly handled update in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven_deadlies Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 DEAR GOD, THE TEARS OF CARE BEARS ARE FLOWING IN THIS THREAD! Level 50 players complaining they might have to look at another living being, in their MSPRPG!?!? I really, really HOPE they start camping these vendors! =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillCaedes Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Almost had it until I was attacked by someone from my OWN faction. What the hell Bioware. Griefing is a part of the experience now?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
United_Strafes Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Going to pick up a piece from Outlaws Den got ya down, don't worry you'll soon have the thrill of blindly scanning a 2 square mile area for parts......fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliceX Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 It's not just pubs that you have to deal with. Outlaws Den is free for ALL Also, I am a PVPer, why do I have to do 2 flashpoints to get the pieces. I don't do flashpoints, I just do PVP. Still trying to figure out how to get my companions out in a a warzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliceX Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Considering you need 2 characters to get this companion..... If the Imps have the place on lockdown and your pub cant get it... ever think of getting your Imp out there to get it instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkgryphon Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Still trying to figure out how to get my companions out in a a warzone. I want him for World PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazedScotsman Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 It's not just pubs that you have to deal with. Outlaws Den is free for ALL Also, I am a PVPer, why do I have to do 2 flashpoints to get the pieces. I don't do flashpoints, I just do PVP. Do Flashpoints give PvP gear or anything required to do PvP? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvig Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 You mean I have the risk of dying from another player in a video game? I better not do this quest, let me go back to afking on the fleet waiting for my group finder queue. Honestly, it's for one item that will take you at max 10 minutes to get if you get camped (which I REALLY doubt it will even take that if you are getting camped). Just do it and never worry about having to die again on your PvE server. Oh yes, the "more uber then thou" sorts have to make a comment. Did it every occur to you that maybe people pick a pve server because they don't want to pvp all the time? I know, I know this is a concept that's difficult for you to comprehend. You're not more "uber" if you're on a pvp server. Get over yourself. I haven't done anything toward getting HK-51 so I don't know if people are camping to gank others on my server yet, but people ARE allowed to complain about such. Oh well, some people just get their ego boost and self worth from video games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariaD Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 What is the argument FOR KEEPING IT THERE? I think this decision has created more player interaction - in-game and on the forums - than any other single mission in the history of TOR. My guess is the developers had that goal - increased player interaction. The game being MMO. These forum discussions have been fascinating. People are trying to define one central idea: coercion Are people coerced if someone threatens to kill them? Hurt them? Mildly inconvenience them? Not give them a small bonus? Not give them something very nice? It's a gradient. I don't think I've ever felt coerced in a virtual world, because I can always choose to Alt-F4 out of it. But other people may feel coerced at different spots in that gradient... And my Outlaw Den experience turned out to be rather funny. We went with my husband, in our PvP gear, ready to fight to the death... The chat was full of, erm, player interaction (threats to report, discussions of tactics, groups forming, etc.) But we got a fresh Instance 3 that was completely and utterly empty. We were the only two people in the whole wide Den. I laughed pretty hard, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Had another friend unsub and uninstall because of this... Well, it wasn't really the Outlaw's Den requirement. He figured he could log on at 4am and get it without any issue or just wait a few weeks until people got bored standing around OD waiting for people to roll in. No, what caused him to unsub was watching posts on this subject get deleted without comment as well as posts like this one going on without any comment whatsoever from EA/BW. Anyone with any MMO experience (which apparently EA/BW doesn't have) knows that if there is even the slightest chance for someone to grief another player...it WILL happen. We all knew this when it was discovered that a vendor would be placed in OD and the designers had ample opportunity to change its location. Griefers were rubbing their hands in their best Mr. Burns imitation just waiting for this to go live and since then there has been steady reports of large grief groups trolling through OD just waiting to roflstomp anyone that goes in. EA/BW had two ways to go: Announce that this is intended and will not change so people would stop filling the forums with posts on the subject and unsub/quit/whatever or ignore it completely so people who hate the lack of communication and caring unsub/quit/whatever. I suppose they had a 3rd choice if they had any real MMO experience which would have been to announce they made a poor design decision and are going to change it but I'm going to guess that the loss of face is just too much for them to bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothear Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 No. When people camp the vendor it is an uncompletable part of the quest. If you don't PvP and don't have expertise gear you die to someone that does. Period. Your recourse is to not do the content. People can be carried through hard mode Foundry. Quite easily. You can't carry someone through PvP. I've decided that I won't be grouping in this game so have to accept that I won't be able to complete the HK-51 questline until Makeb comes out. You've decided that you won't do what it takes to carry out the PvP section of the quest therefore you have to wait until the fuss dies down and it's easier to get to the vendor. We all make choices and you are no more special than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkgryphon Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I remember when they put the bird eggs into the game. People even complained about how others would camp the eggs. PVP servers had complaints of getting killed, while PVE had complaints of people camping it, logging, then relogging as the respawn timer was coming to zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrabeneuf Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Its not like your in there for long really... there are 3 venders and 2 of them are so easy to get too. you can walk in and walk out before anyone see's you.. and believe me, no one really goes into outlaws den these days... yea okay tell that to the million people who ganked the crap out of me last night and also they were imps...... MY faction thats retarded:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothear Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) Had another friend unsub and uninstall because of this... Well, it wasn't really the Outlaw's Den requirement. He figured he could log on at 4am and get it without any issue or just wait a few weeks until people got bored standing around OD waiting for people to roll in. No, what caused him to unsub was watching posts on this subject get deleted without comment as well as posts like this one going on without any comment whatsoever from EA/BW. Anyone with any MMO experience (which apparently EA/BW doesn't have) knows that if there is even the slightest chance for someone to grief another player...it WILL happen. We all knew this when it was discovered that a vendor would be placed in OD and the designers had ample opportunity to change its location. Griefers were rubbing their hands in their best Mr. Burns imitation just waiting for this to go live and since then there has been steady reports of large grief groups trolling through OD just waiting to roflstomp anyone that goes in. EA/BW had two ways to go: Announce that this is intended and will not change so people would stop filling the forums with posts on the subject and unsub/quit/whatever or ignore it completely so people who hate the lack of communication and caring unsub/quit/whatever. I suppose they had a 3rd choice if they had any real MMO experience which would have been to announce they made a poor design decision and are going to change it but I'm going to guess that the loss of face is just too much for them to bear. If your friend was so upset to uninstall over this then they would have left the game pretty soon anyway. The communication now is no worse than it has been over the past few weeks. That excuse just doesn't ring true. I've tended to find on this forum that people who demand things from Bioware tend to be flaky subscribers at best and they will jump onto another issue if a CS comes on and gives them a satisfactory answer. As per your last paragraph, it is only poor design in your opinion. Even if they do decide 'griefing' as you call it is so severe and make a change such as move the vendor nearer to the entrance do you really think that they will say it was a mistake? No other company running MMO's would and you would know that if you've played many MMO's. edited due to mix up in names Edited November 17, 2012 by mothear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkgryphon Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 yea okay tell that to the million people who ganked the crap out of me last night and also they were imps...... MY faction thats retarded:mad: There's not even a million people playing the game to validate that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 The ultimate goal of a game is to provide fun and enjoyment. If you add content that isn't fun or enjoyable for 100% of the player base you have failed as a designer. People aren't going to play a game they do not enjoy and they are not going to stick around if they are faced with endless frustration while trying to accomplish a goal. It isn't important that the goal is "optional" or not, if someone wants to achieve it and can't because of poor design decisions they will simply stop playing. Ignorance shows whenever someone says something nonsensical like "you don't need it" or "wait" or "learn to play". The simple truth of the matter is what was foreseen by veteran MMO players as ripe for grief is now proving that simple truth. People who stuck around for this one thing but are being denied it because groups of adolescents think it's "fun" to grossly overpower one poor shmuck who just wants to buy something from a vendor are making those players rethink their decision to stay. 20 on 1 isn't PvP. Heck, 1 War Hero geared player versus any PvE player isn't PvP. There is no skill in this, you aren't "winning converts" to the ways of PvP...you aren't doing anything but reinforcing the negative stereotype most PvE MMO players have of anyone whose main play style is PvP. Encouraging griefing does not encourage PvP, it discourages it. Had the requirement been to get parts from actual WZ's it would have been better for all involved. Instead you have a gank-fest that has the very real possibility of chasing away paying customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothear Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 yea okay tell that to the million people who ganked the crap out of me last night and also they were imps...... MY faction thats retarded:mad: Well subs must be on the up at least if there are 1 million imps on your server, sounds like they must have fixed lagging issues for large groups too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 If your friend was so upset to uninstall over this then they would have left the game pretty soon anyway. The communication now is no worse than it has been over the past few weeks. That excuse just doesn't ring true. Until a few weeks ago, communication concerning bugs and tickets was quick and more meaningful than the cut and paste we see now. This, for him, was simply a "final straw". It could have very well been something else but lack of communication on such a hot topic was simply beyond what he was prepared to tolerate. I've tended to find on this forum that people who demand things from Bioware tend to be flaky subscribers at best and they will jump onto another issue if a CS comes on and gives them a satisfactory answer. As per your last paragraph, it is only poor design in your opinion. Even if they do decide 'griefing' as you call it is so severe and make a change such as move the vendor nearer to the entrance do you really think that they will say it was a mistake? No other company running MMO's would and you would know that if you've played 7 MMO's as you say you have. First, where in that post do you see "7" anywhere? I've played all of the "big" MMO's and a few smaller ones and 7 is way too low a number. Besides which SOE, Blizzard and CCP just to name a few have all owned up to various mistakes over the years. Of course it was done in ways to remove any chance they be viewed as negligent (such as SOE offering refunds of ToOW since they sold players the expansion and announced the NGE the day after), but game companies do admit mistakes and apologize for them. And while it may be my opinion, it is an opinion shared by many, many people which makes it just as valid as any other opinion on the topic. Everyone has an opinion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymitsu Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I've decided that I won't be grouping in this game so have to accept that I won't be able to complete the HK-51 questline until Makeb comes out. You've decided that you won't do what it takes to carry out the PvP section of the quest therefore you have to wait until the fuss dies down and it's easier to get to the vendor. We all make choices and you are no more special than me. You made your choice of your own free will and readily accept the consequences of that choice. I am having the option of waiting forced down my throat at the point of a lightsaber by a large group of sociopathic trolls. In what language do I have to spell it out for you so that you'll understand that one cannot buy things from a vendor while dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkgryphon Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 You made your choice of your own free will and readily accept the consequences of that choice. I am having the option of waiting forced down my throat at the point of a lightsaber by a large group of sociopathic trolls. In what language do I have to spell it out for you so that you'll understand that one cannot buy things from a vendor while dead? Make a stealth char, and just sneak in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wefi Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Im on a PVP server, and pvp'd for the hoth one. people both sith and Rep worked together to kill each other. Right now. there's a very large Sith guild thats camping in the outlaw's den killing Bothsides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymitsu Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Make a stealth char, and just sneak in there. Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that before?! Oh that's right because Shadows and Vanguards can snatch you away from the vendor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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