When did Healers become Hydras?

[Uggen]

It's not even fun to comment any more. Instant spammable mega heals....

Make an operative healer and learn how to counter them.

 

How about you making a commando healer or sage healer and learning that ur class is infact the superior healing-class?

[foxmob]

Most of the ppl that I hear whine about healers are usually ppl that have no clue how to focus targets. Who and when to attack, when to switch, and when to cc/interrupt. I've seen dominant teams take down the best of healers with guard just because they knew how to play well together.

 

Hope you aren't just mindlessly beating on a healer that is being guarded by a good tank....Or do you not know how taunt works? More often than not, it is much wiser to kill the tank while keeping the healer busy.

 

this is true. although certain classes can rock paper scissors other ones. I was only ever average at best on my van assault, but I could eat up sorc & merc healers. op healers couldn't survive me either, but they could last long enough for any decent pug to peel off. merc: all you gotta do wait for shield to drop and they're toast. sorc are just toast cuz van assault is unkiteable (instant application of snare + grapple + 2 stuns + 1 interrupt).

 

on the other hand, and merc or lightning spammer should never be able to take down an op healer. he's far too mobile.

 

sorc dotter should be ineffectual against sage due to lack of interrupts, cleasability of dots, and raw output of sage healing.

 

so there are a few matchups that are just forgone conclusions "by nature."

 

that's all 1v1 though. crosshealing with guards can keep a person up indefinitely. xen was telling me <unicorns> rolled 3 heals with 1 tank and like..what? a total of 3 or 4 taunts between PTs and Juggs. put the guard on the focus target and cycle taunts and aoe taunts. it's quite possible to keep a healer up even through focus fire. I think that's rare though. usually, ppl aren't ff'ing and that's their prob.

[DarthOvertone]

It's that Warzones are inherently stacked against Marauders. They have no useful abilites. They can't dash, they can't stun, they can't stealth, they can't heal, They can't pull, they can't absorb or tank, etc.

 

What level is your Marauder? Because my Marauder can do all those things...well, he can't pull, but Force Leap is better anyway.

[Paulman]

Healers aren't hydras they don't turn into multiple healers when you damage them. They simply heal damage. If a healer can't heal damage then they wouldn't be a healer.

[SpaniardInfinity]

As a healer, I gauge how good a DPS player is by how well they are able to lock me down (as in making me unable to heal my teammates, requiring me to focus on keeping myself alive). There are players that can do this solo, and they are very good players. The logical conclusion from this is that if you can not lock down a healer by yourself, then you're not as good as the players who can, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

(My polite attempt at saying L2P. Disabling a healer by yourself is more difficult than it sounds and requires pretty good knowledge of both your own class and the healer's class)

 

Another thing to note is that a DPS is not supposed to be able to kill a healer 1 on 1 - healers have excellent tools to keep themselves alive that can't necessarily be used to keep their teammates alive. If it were possible for a DPS to kill a healer 1 on 1 assuming equal skill/gear levels then healers would be a liability to the team. A DPS is able to cancel out the effectiveness of a healer if he is playing correctly, meaning your team is trading one of their DPS for one of the enemy team's healers which is a great tradeoff.

 

You may also be going into the fight with the wrong mindset. You don't need to kill the healer, you just need to prevent him from doing his job. Often times, as simple a thing as Force Pushing the healer down a hill far away from the battle is good enough to give you room to kill his allies or cap the turret.

 

The only way this can feasibly happen is if you are not being vigilant with your interrupts. All of the big heals for each of the 3 healer classes are all relatively slow cast-time abilities practically begging to be interrupted.

 

Healers have always sorta been "hydras". They pretty much need to be, as this post I quoted really explains quite well.

 

But one thing I wanted to mention on top of what was posted here was this: healers are very killable. It says a lot about their team if you having a tough time killing them because, realistically, if a healer has zero support they will die if they haven't already. If you are having trouble killing a healer, it may also mean they are being assisted (tanks may have them guarded or your team taunted, healers may be cross healing them, DPS may be killing the big threats on the healer, teammates may be stunning/slowing/snaring players off healers so they can escape). A team protecting their healers will make said healers look pretty damn unkillable. If you put that same healer in a warzone unsupported, they'll still put up some nice numbers, but not without trotting back to the battle half a dozen or more times.

[QuietGoneJinn]

Was this a post complaining about being able to kill people in warzones?

Only when there isn't some ridiculous heals or absorptions that negate everything. I'm saying tactically, the DPS player's biggest advantage is a huge disadvantage in Warzones.

 

But the fact I'm trying to push out is that it has nothing to do with "l2p" it's that there's an inherent ability gap for Marauders. A Bounty Hunter spamming ranged AoE to avoid caps isn't a skilled player, they're exploiting their ability advantages for that game type. Same with an Inquisitor that dashes halfway across the field for the first cap of the game. He isn't a pro at playing Inquisitor, the class just has the right tools for the job.

 

After all the nerfing/buffing and flavor-of-the-months, no one can really say "l2p" in SWTOR because the classes aren't, nor have they ever been, balanced. Not like this is Team Fortress 2, where class balance is near perfect.

Edited October 19, 2012 by QuietGoneJinn

[QuietGoneJinn]

What level is your Marauder? Because my Marauder can do all those things...well, he can't pull, but Force Leap is better anyway.

A 3 second cloak is hardly a strategic advantage in battle or tactics. Sure it helps more so than if you didn't have it. But compared to he other stealthers in the game it's a laughable ability.

 

Warriors don't have dash, I hope you aren't thinking about Sprint?

 

Stuns: 1 5-second channeled stun that is broken (It causes damage but players are still mobile). And an AoE stun that is on a 3-minute cooldown that can only be activated if you are right ontop of your enemy. Yeah, we sure are the envy of all the CC classes. I bet Inquisitors & Smugglers are super jealous of us.

 

Healing: Only if you're speced Annihilation does it count. Otherwise the focused heal is worthless as it can't be used in battle and it takes a good 10 seconds to pop back up after battle (Where someone can just run up and engage you before you have the opportunity to heal yourself).

 

Sound like your Marauder is hacked or fictional.

[DarthSabreth]

WOW just WOW

 

one week folks are complaining on the forums "We dont have any healers" then the week right after, QQ theres too many healers in WZ's.

 

If there was no healers at all or nerfed into the dirt as some suggested then get ready, the QQ on the furums would be legenday indeed.

 

If a healer could not heal through dps on his/herself / others then why even bother healing? healers do not have an easy job in WZ's, once your flagged as a healer you are focus fired and thats something that we live with and i for one enjoy because its more of a challange.

 

keep wishing for no healers in wz's you just might get what you wished for.

[TheronFett]

Another thing to note is that a DPS is not supposed to be able to kill a healer 1 on 1 - healers have excellent tools to keep themselves alive that can't necessarily be used to keep their teammates alive. If it were possible for a DPS to kill a healer 1 on 1 assuming equal skill/gear levels then healers would be a liability to the team. A DPS is able to cancel out the effectiveness of a healer if he is playing correctly, meaning your team is trading one of their DPS for one of the enemy team's healers which is a great tradeoff.

 

This ^

 

Dashto is a real pain to take on solo, as one of our server's top healers. And I agree completely. DPS vs Healer should be a wash in a 1 vs 1 situation. When a DPS takes a healer out of the equation by keeping only himself alive, your team is already 3 steps ahead. Truth is, most healers can be burned through rather easily. Some can be difficult. Then there's players like Dashto who make you want to throw your keyboard.

 

Cross-healing is another story. 2 healers in a warzone (in theory) requires 4 DPS to effectively take them out. Most groups can handle this, even PUGs. When you throw 3 healers into the fray, things can get ugly for the opposing team.

[DarthOvertone]

A 3 second cloak is hardly a strategic advantage in battle or tactics. Sure it helps more so than if you didn't have it. But compared to he other stealthers in the game it's a laughable ability.

 

And Saber Ward...and Undying Rage...

 

Warriors don't have dash, I hope you aren't thinking about Sprint?

 

Predation...next

 

Stuns: 1 5-second channeled stun that is broken (It causes damage but players are still mobile). And an AoE stun that is on a 3-minute cooldown that can only be activated if you are right ontop of your enemy. Yeah, we sure are the envy of all the CC classes.

 

Whether other classes envy us is of no consequence. The point is we do have CC that is available to us.

 

Healing: Only if you're speced Annihilation does it count. Otherwise the focused heal is worthless as it can't be used in battle and it takes a good 10 seconds to pop back up after battle (Where someone can just run up and engage you before you have the opportunity to heal yourself).

 

Exactly. If you are concerned about self-healing, and some group healing for that matter, roll Annihilation. Why wouldn't that count? Not happy unless you are 31/31/31 spec eh...meh

 

Sound like your Marauder is hacked or fictional.

 

At this point, I really think you're just trolling. You made all the arguments against yourself for me. lol

Edited October 20, 2012 by DarthOvertone

[alexzk]

It's not really a problem that they can heal 75% to everybody, problem is that they can do dmg at the same moment, so they can be perfect guards for objects. 2 Cross healers may delay entire 8 ppl team of capturing node (and 3 will do it for sure).

 

How about to add all healers some stances ? "Heal stance" - no dmg/control are possibly at all - only pure heal/escape abilities, "Fight stance" - use ur abilities but self-healing is nerfed by 70% or so ? Can be switched out combat only like stealth and costs full resource (like full force points for shadows).

Edited October 20, 2012 by alexzk

[Debaucher]

So this rant is about emergency medpack combined with warzone medpack ?

 

Seriously, the emergency medpack will crit for ~3k, more or less healing through a dispatch. I didn't kill him even tho i used my finisher noes.

 

People who think healing is op are probably the ones who :

 

(a) Take the "free channeled" spell bait and throw away their interupt. After that folks, comes the 5k cast heal.

(b) CC the heck out of a healer who is hotted and 100%.

© Are unable to understand when the healer is going to start kiting, break LoS and cast. Next time, do try and slow him or save your gap closers.

(d) Do not know how gear works in this game. Why should you kill a full wh 20k hp ~700 healing power caster fast. Dps of the equivelent gear don't die that fast do they?

 

Bottomline, try to deal with healing and not waste spells. I lol when ppl throw away their strong tech abilities when my dispel is up. Also, when 2 DPS are on the healer, the health of the group goes down, even if it doesnt the other healers resources will get low. And then group health will drop. Last but not least, when a healer is guarded have or prey that some1 seperates the tank from the healer. Guards distance is not that big.

 

Best advice : roll a healer and play a bit with that toon. You will understand whats wrong then.

 

PS: This post doesn't apply to more than 2 healer scenarios. But then there are dps problems.

[alexzk]

I'd say "pullers problem" couple tanks with pulls can split and kill multi-cross healers but don't see this too often and not always possible, they like to hide in textures when pull goes nowhere :/

[SpaniardInfinity]

It's not really a problem that they can heal 75% to everybody, problem is that they can do dmg at the same moment, so they can be perfect guards for objects. 2 Cross healers may delay entire 8 ppl team of capturing node (and 3 will do it for sure).

 

How about to add all healers some stances ? "Heal stance" - no dmg/control are possibly at all - only pure heal/escape abilities, "Fight stance" - use ur abilities but self-healing is nerfed by 70% or so ? Can be switched out combat only like stealth and costs full resource (like full force points for shadows).

 

Depends on whether or not Bioware wants hybrid builds to be viable. Commando healer is presently the only one which requires a stance for healing, and the stance increases both healing and damage done by 3% at 30 stacks of charge -- you can make it peak at 5% for 10 seconds by Supercharging (which also reduces the cost of several DPS abilities AND is also the backbone of a Trooper healer).

 

Neither Sage nor Scoundrel (nor their mirrors) require a healer stance. I'm not familiar enough with their skill trees to comment on if it would even make sense to have one, and Bioware themselves have gone on record as saying they don't want to add stances unless is practical. Not only that, but I suspect introducing a stance would require an overhaul of the structure of both classes -- something that doesn't seem likely IMO.

 

As for making it a requirement, I'm not too worried. Realistically, this is the situation you have in-game:

 

- If you are a bursty class and well geared, you are effectively a designated healer-killer. The amount of damage you deal should be sufficient such that if the healer isn't dead they soon will be (while cooldowns last). Regardless, the healer won't be much use to their team, since if they stop healing at any point they will die faster than if they kite and focus themselves.

 

- If you are a non-burst class and/or ungeared, you do not have the killing power to kill a healer on your own. You can control them and harass them, but a teammate will be needed if you expect the healer to die. Depending on how good you are at harassing, the healer may or may not be able to heal themselves and allies while more or less ignoring you. In this situation, they could alternatively turn around and try to DPS you down if the incoming damage is that low.

 

Also, players who have multiple characters may also exploit weaknesses of players on classes they play, which may give them an edge. But realistically, if you are a burst class, you should never find yourself in a DPS race against a healer.

Edited October 20, 2012 by SpaniardInfinity

[Eszi]

Even as a DPS-speced Marauder I become practically invincible even with a moderate healer.

Try playing a tank spec'd mara, it's even worse

[QuietGoneJinn]

And Saber Ward...and Undying Rage...

I was talking about the Force Camouflage as in the previous post I mentioned "stealth". But as far as damage reduction goes, Warrior's are not even comparable to Inquisitor's. They can go through the acid/flames in Huttball with little-to-no damage. Saber Ward won't even let a Warrior last 5 seconds in either of those hazards.

 

 

Predation...next

Yeah, an "instant" ability vs. one that requires 30 stacks of fury to activate. Next indeed!

 

 

Whether other classes envy us is of no consequence. The point is we do have CC that is available to us.

That was obviously sarcasm. They don't envy us. Not only do we have pathetic stuns, we can't attack while using them. Choke is channeled and Scream allows one attack before breaking. Smugglers and Inquistors, on the other hand, can actually attack a defenseless target with most of their stuns. Nothing like being held in place while they crit you for 8k.

 

 

 

 

You made all the arguments against yourself for me. lol

You're delusional if you think I proved you right in any of that. Edited October 20, 2012 by QuietGoneJinn

[BlackSpin]

nerf healing more... you wont see any of us on WZ...

not to mention mostly we'r not even guarded.... or players see 2 dps hitting a healer, and instead of helping him, they type 'oh, where are my heals, you are worthless noob'

I dare you, nerf healers by 20% and all of those healers, will go dps. WZs will change into carnage of blood and death.

 

I switched to Conceal on my operative a few weeks ago after being heals since launch. With the exception of doing RWZ when they need me heals. Just so tired of having 3 marauders jumping at me at the same time and destroying me. There's no reason to nerf healing. A good DPS can shut you down, reducing your healing by a ton ... Even without killing you. Just a damn vanguard following you around smashing his ion pulse is pretty annoying.

[QuietGoneJinn]

Try playing a tank spec'd mara, it's even worse

Are Marauders even viable as a Tank? Annihilation will heal you, but you need to be constantly attacking things (And if you get stunned then it's all over). Plus your HP and absorption are still low. And you don't get the advantage of Heavy Armor ratings.

[Jadescythe]

I was talking about the Force Camouflage as in the previous post I mentioned "stealth". But as far as damage reduction goes, Warrior's are not even comparable to Inquisitor's. They can go through the acid/flames in Huttball with little-to-no damage. Saber Ward won't even let a Warrior last 5 seconds in either of those hazards.

 

 

Yeah, an "instant" ability vs. one that requires 30 stacks of fury to activate. Next indeed!

 

 

That was obviously sarcasm. They don't envy us. Not only do we have pathetic stuns, we can't attack while using them. Choke is channeled and Scream allows one attack before breaking. Smugglers and Inquistors, on the other hand, can actually attack a defenseless target with most of their stuns. Nothing like being held in place while they crit you for 8k.

 

 

 

 

You're delusional if you think I proved you right in any of that.

 

At this point I have to assume you are either A) the worst marauder in the history of marauders or B) trolling. I assume it's B (I hope it's B, I really, really, really hope it's B), but I'll bite anyway. If you want to compare DCDs to a sin, compare undying rage, which is 99% DAMAGE REDUCTION PERIOD. Then add in cloak of pain and saber ward because UR isn't enough for you, is it? I think the combination of your leap and predation more than makes up for not having force speed. There is a reason that no rated team is going into warzones without a mara as you autolose the huttball at the start of any match without predation, can't stop a cap at the off node in ACW, and can be totally left behind by the other team in VS. 1 mara can destroy a healer 1v1, feel free to respec into getting an interrupt every 4 seconds or whatever. Or else go Rage so you can have yet another leap and do more damage than a jugg with the same attacks. Lastly, I apologize that the CC based classes have better CC than you, but considering no sorc or operative would last a 4 second stun against a mara, I think they would have more room to complain than you do. Espcially since you still have force choke and an AOE mezz to use strategically for objectives.

 

TL;DR You want your class to do everything every other class can do, which is completely unrealistic. If you don't know how good maras are, then you have a serious lack of skill that will never be overcome by any change BW will ever make.

[Marisblood]

So..nerf healing?

 

This is why PvP can't have nice things.

 

I am sure you saw the videos with healers puting even 15k healing/sec. Healers are ment to die like all clases but after 1.4 they can kill every class in the game, specialy sages/sorcs. A healer must be a healer, a dps must fill the dps role and kill and tanks must fill their role to protect. In this game healers are dps,tank and healers ofc. Imba.

[Hairyzac]

I am sure you saw the videos with healers puting even 15k healing/sec. Healers are ment to die like all clases but after 1.4 they can kill every class in the game, specialy sages/sorcs. A healer must be a healer, a dps must fill the dps role and kill and tanks must fill their role to protect. In this game healers are dps,tank and healers ofc. Imba.

 

Marisblood you shouldn't be telling everyone how horrible you are at this game. People won't even read what you have to say after posts like these.

[QuietGoneJinn]

At this point I have to assume you are either A) the worst marauder in the history of marauders or B) trolling. I assume it's B (I hope it's B, I really, really, really hope it's B), but I'll bite anyway. If you want to compare DCDs to a sin, compare undying rage, which is 99% DAMAGE REDUCTION PERIOD. Then add in cloak of pain and saber ward because UR isn't enough for you, is it? I think the combination of your leap and predation more than makes up for not having force speed. There is a reason that no rated team is going into warzones without a mara as you autolose the huttball at the start of any match without predation, can't stop a cap at the off node in ACW, and can be totally left behind by the other team in VS. 1 mara can destroy a healer 1v1, feel free to respec into getting an interrupt every 4 seconds or whatever. Or else go Rage so you can have yet another leap and do more damage than a jugg with the same attacks. Lastly, I apologize that the CC based classes have better CC than you, but considering no sorc or operative would last a 4 second stun against a mara, I think they would have more room to complain than you do. Espcially since you still have force choke and an AOE mezz to use strategically for objectives.

 

TL;DR You want your class to do everything every other class can do, which is completely unrealistic. If you don't know how good maras are, then you have a serious lack of skill that will never be overcome by any change BW will ever make.

I resubbed on Oct 1st and since I last played, they've added the WZ records, and I've picked up 108 WZ wins with random pick-up groups, so no.

 

And I'm not trollng, it's just that in your arrogance you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying Marauders should have all that. I'm saying that if you ranked abilities, Marauders rank last in almost every category while other classes can practically dual-spec (Healer/Tank, Tank/DPS, DPS/Healer, etc.).

 

It's like TF2. Scouts make up for low health with high speed. They're balanced against Heavies because they have such a low speed for their high health. Both share about the same attack strength, so they perfectly compliment each other. In a one-on-one it's completely up in the air. No one class has an inherent ability advantage over the others.

 

In Swtor you've got classes with decent DPS, Tank life/absorbtion, and the ability to restore their health completely.

Edited October 20, 2012 by QuietGoneJinn

[Solarenergy]

I am sure you saw the videos with healers puting even 15k healing/sec. Healers are ment to die like all clases but after 1.4 they can kill every class in the game, specialy sages/sorcs. A healer must be a healer, a dps must fill the dps role and kill and tanks must fill their role to protect. In this game healers are dps,tank and healers ofc. Imba.

 

What are you talking about? My sorc is a full healer, and his dps is not good enough to kill anyone. The enemy dps'er would have to be completely incompetent for me to solo kill him on my sorc. Yes, as a sorc I have great healing, and can put up huge numbers in that department, however, as a result of that, I pay a heavy price in the dps department. That's what balance is. I specced healing to be a healer, and so that's what my sorcerer is, so I don't understand how you think healers are doing too much dps in this game. Try playing a full healer and you'll see it's simply not true, and not a cake walk, especially if you're up against a decent team that targets healers. Just because we can stay alive for quite a while when only one enemy is trying to kill us, it doesn't mean we are OP in any way as recent threads have been insinuating.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Solarenergy

[BlackSpin]

All these complaints are ridiculous.

 

If there are two healers on one node, you're team isn't putting enough pressure on the second node. Cross-healing doesn't apply. Most teams have 2 healers.

 

Crying about DPS being nullified? You're describing a 1v2 situation. Of course your going to lose. You DPSing player A, player B heals player A. Get organized? DPS/interrupt/focus fire healer? Doesn't apply.

 

Healers are not suppose to be easy kills. If they were, no one would play them (like mercenaries lol). And would become a liability for their team (as someone mentioned.) Doesn't apply.

 

When I heal - Like... REALLY heal a warzone, I have maybe 20k damage. Is that what you're complaining about? If a healer does more than that, you're giving him too much free time (your team sucks). When I have over 100k damage during a wz, it means I was getting pretty bored. Doesn't apply.

 

What else ya got?

Edited October 21, 2012 by BlackSpin

[SpaniardInfinity]

I resubbed on Oct 1st and since I last played, they've added the WZ records, and I've picked up 108 WZ wins with random pick-up groups, so no.

 

And I'm not trollng, it's just that in your arrogance you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying Marauders should have all that. I'm saying that if you ranked abilities, Marauders rank last in almost every category while other classes can practically dual-spec (Healer/Tank, Tank/DPS, DPS/Healer, etc.).

 

It's like TF2. Scouts make up for low health with high speed. They're balanced against Heavies because they have such a low speed for their high health. Both share about the same attack strength, so they perfectly compliment each other. In a one-on-one it's completely up in the air. No one class has an inherent ability advantage over the others.

 

In Swtor you've got classes with decent DPS, Tank life/absorbtion, and the ability to restore their health completely.

 

What types of abilities are we ranking, exactly? Marauder/Sentinels have excellent defensive cooldowns, bring a great deal of team-utility that is more or less exclusive to the AC, have a very solid damage output, and have a moderate amount of CC for controlling enemies, but not nearly as many as if you were a Jugg/Guardian. I am confused as to how exactly they rank at the lowest in ever category for utility, unless you are looking at this from a completely different angle than what I am.

 

Also, there is more to a fight like a Scout v Heavy in TF2 than just speed v. hit points (although this is a theme in the game, most "light" classes are support and run fast or normal speed, while "heavier" offense-oriented classes are slower with more HP and firepower). Each of the two have their own strengths and weaknesses, and an even fight will have both players capitlizing on their classes' strengths while exploiting the enemy's weakness as much as possible. Take for instance a Pyro v a Sniper at long range with no cover. The Pyro just found himself in all the wrong places and is likely dead because of a natural weakness of the class. Now take those same two classes and make it a CQ encounter. Now the Pyro is exploiting the Sniper's weakness at CQC.

 

This kind of balance does exist in SWTOR, but it's not really as apparent because there are so many variables. There are 8 ACs each with 3 skill trees, which (if everyone spec'd purely --- which they don't) would be effectively 24 different "classes". But still, this balance exists. This game has its designated heal-killers. They have the tools necessary for locking down a healer and/or killing them if they healer receives no support. They 100% have the advantage in a fight against a healer and the healer will likely lose. But that's where skill comes into play, similar to that example with Pyro v Sniper (in both cases). A good Pyro may be able to chain a few critical flareguns in a row and kill the Sniper outright or with afterburn, overcoming their range weakness for the win. By the same token, a good Sniper can headshot the Pyro in a heartbeat and walk away with another notch under their belt. In SWTOR, a good healer can capitalize on their classes strengths to survive long enough for help to arrive. At the same time, a good DPS will exploit the healer's weaknesses and send them back to respawn before help reaches them.

 

To finish what is already a post already longer than I would have liked, it sounds to me that you are seeing fights in SWTOR like a 1v1 in TF2, either a win or a loss. In SWTOR, you play for the draw and hope for the win in a 1v1 (at least pertaining to healers). As a DPS against a healer, if you can't kill the healer (win) then lock them down so they can't help their team (draw). By that same token, a healer will be playing the draw to last long enough for help to reach them. Hopefully that help will be enough to turn the fight in their favor and get them the win.