Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Comfterbilly]

No, you don't get to call people idiots until ...

 

Frankly my dear, I already have.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Frankly my dear, I already have.

 

No, you don't get to call people idiots until you explain how you can both have enough PuG's willing to quit to destabilize the regular queue, and yet say there will be enough PuG's in the regular queue once you give the quitters a PuG-only bracket.

 

You can't say "More will join" because in either example, more PuG's could join at any time. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

So no temper tantrums Comfty.

 

Ps. Avoiding answering and continuing to try and insult people is trolling... as you say: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...

[Doomsdaycomes]

Frankly my dear, I already have.

 

Just in case my meaning isn't clear enough for you, Master of the Debate Comfty:

 

Your justificiation for solo queues goes:

 

P (group population) - X (PuG's leaving) = Z.

 

Z is too low to sustain itself.

 

Then your solution is a single-only bracket:

 

P (group population) - Y (PuG's leaving for solo-bracket) = Z

 

and Z is high enough to sustain itself.

 

X is equal to Y. There is no reason less PuG's will leave for the solo-bracket then those already prepared to quit. Therefor whether it's P-X or P-Y, Z is still too low to sustain itself.

 

So you reply:

 

No, you're dumb. The game populations is always gaining more players ®, so Z has enough players in the second equation..

 

No

 

If there are more players being added in the second equation, then the same is true for the first.

 

If the second is now (P+R)-Y = Z

The first is now (P+R)-X =Z

 

Nothing has been solved.

 

So either Z is large enough to sustain itself or it's not. Pick one.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[Sharee]

Just in case my meaning isn't clear enough for you, Master of the Debate Comfty:

 

Your justificiation for solo queues goes:

 

P (group population) - X (PuG's leaving) = Z.

 

Z is too low to sustain itself.

 

Then your solution is a single-only bracket:

 

P (group population) - Y (PuG's leaving for solo-bracket) = Z

 

and Z is high enough to sustain itself.

 

X is equal to Y. There is no reason less PuG's will leave for the solo-bracket then those already prepared to quit. Therefor whether it's P-X or P-Y, Z is still too low to sustain itself..

 

You need to consider however that Z is too low to sustain itself not because solo-bracket was created, but because the players who chose it simply do not want to play in the group bracket.

 

By refusing to create solo bracket on the ground that there would be too few players remaining in the group bracket, you are basically taking all those players who would leave, but currently can't, hostage, to preserve population.

 

I believe it is not right to demand that a group of players suffers just so that the rest can have their fun. It is not right to demand that the solo-queuers face premades just so that the premades have cannon-fodder for their games. Because that's the logic of "we can't let them leave or otherwise the population won't be able to sustain itself"

 

 

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Footnote: I still don't think a pure solo-bracket, in the sense that ALL solo-queued go there, whether they want or not, is a good solution. Because that would force the solo-queuers who maybe WANT to face premades not to be able to, and that's just as wrong. Instead, solo-queuers need to have an option to choose who they want to play against.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Sharee

[TridusSWTOR]

Clearly you can't listen to reason and won't back up your claims. Imagine i said lfg pvp in chat, and 3 randoms answer. That is a premade, but has none of the advantages that you speak of. Therefore your premise is false.

 

You do not get voice chat, focus targeting, composition or better gear simply from being in a group. Those are a result of coordination, which is skill. Which is why there should be matchmaking, which separates by skill, rather than an arbitrary condition.

 

And as for population not supporting matchmaking, thats why the consolidated the servers,

 

Clearly you haven't actually tried saying lfg for pvp. Since most of the time, you don't get a response.

 

How can I listen to reason, when all your suggestions are unrealistic from the start? Stick with what actually happens in the game, then come back to me.

[TridusSWTOR]

You need to consider however that Z is too low to sustain itself not because solo-bracket was created, but because the players who chose it simply do not want to play in the group bracket.

 

By refusing to create solo bracket on the ground that there would be too few players remaining in the group bracket, you are basically taking all those players who would leave, but currently can't, hostage, to preserve population.

 

I believe it is not right to demand that a group of players suffers just so that the rest can have their fun. It is not right to demand that the solo-queuers face premades just so that the premades have cannon-fodder for their games. Because that's the logic of "we can't let them leave or otherwise the population won't be able to sustain itself"

 

 

------------------------

Footnote: I still don't think a pure solo-bracket, in the sense that ALL solo-queued go there, whether they want or not, is a good solution. Because that would force the solo-queuers who maybe WANT to face premades not to be able to, and that's just as wrong. Instead, solo-queuers need to have an option to choose who they want to play against.

 

Very well put.

[DariusCalera]

Yeah random group awareness is a great counter for a super queued 8 man with 4 stealths coordinating a cap-block, all synchronizing when they're going to come unstealthed so there's no way the other team can meet their objective. 8 people who never played with each other before should have plenty of time to decide who's the leader and what strategy to call out. Not like you'll get 8 people pulling off a very specific tactic against 8 people who don't even know who to listen to.

 

Yes, it is a great counter. You would be surprised to find what a PuG can accomplish if people pay attention to what is going on around them and don't just try to pad their own numbers.

[underpantsgnomes]

Easiest way to avoid getting steamrolled in WZs is to make friends with people who don't suck. Is it really that hard?

[Doomsdaycomes]

You need to consider however that Z is too low to sustain itself not because solo-bracket was created, but because the players who chose it simply do not want to play in the group bracket.

 

By refusing to create solo bracket on the ground that there would be too few players remaining in the group bracket, you are basically taking all those players who would leave, but currently can't, hostage, to preserve population.

 

I believe it is not right to demand that a group of players suffers just so that the rest can have their fun. It is not right to demand that the solo-queuers face premades just so that the premades have cannon-fodder for their games. Because that's the logic of "we can't let them leave or otherwise the population won't be able to sustain itself"

 

I am not in disagreement.

 

The post you quoted is in reference to something Comfty has stated, then refused over and over to answer. He essentially says Bioware must create a solo bracket because without it, PuG stomping makes PuG's quit the game, and then without them longer queue times cause group players to quit.

 

Though I think the statement is a bit over dramatic, it is not something I disagree with. I don't deny that there is a problem, or that it has a negative effect.

 

The issue I take (with him) is his solution. Going by the same logic/equation, the creation of a solo only bracket along side a group+solo bracket has the same effect on the regular population as the PuG's up and leaving. His reply has been something along the lines of "Nuh uh, no it doesn't!"

 

So please don't misunderstand me Sharee. I am not in disagreement that something needs to change. My issue is that over and over Comfty has proclaimed their path is the way, viciously insulted players, and whenever their argument is back into corner, simply ignored posts that they can't answer to. So until he some how explains how one example of removing PuG's can have vastly different results from the other, I'll continue to call him out for what he is.

 

That's all.

[rlamela]

Let's not forget, there are some mostly solo-queue'rs in here that do not share your gloomy and doom mentality. I could be wrong, but I believe Cash is one of them (Cash, can you confirm if you please?).

 

Of course, not all solo-queue'rs are bad or unskilled. In fact, many of them are quite "skilled" in terms of 1 vs 1. The issues is... this game is not about 1 vs 1. It's a team based pvp, and any kind of anti-team mentality really doesn't help the solo-queuer. You could be the best duelist in the world, capable of handling 1 vs 2 and maybe even 1 vs 3... but you can't defend 2 nodes by yourself, you can't run a huttball without protection, etc...

 

 

I solo queue 99% of my warzones I have ever entered. And all I do is pvp. Played the game since 2nd batch of invites on 1st day of early access. Have 3 100 Valor toons and 2 more at 80 Valor. I definitely don't have an issue with premades, gear, classes being overpowered, hackers, or any other type of nonsense.

the only issue with pvp has and will be the fact there is no matchmaking at all. But people will continue making excuses for losing instead of excepting the fact that other team was just better then them at a game.

 

Rellik

[rlamela]

Yeah random group awareness is a great counter for a super queued 8 man with 4 stealths coordinating a cap-block, all synchronizing when they're going to come unstealthed so there's no way the other team can meet their objective. 8 people who never played with each other before should have plenty of time to decide who's the leader and what strategy to call out. Not like you'll get 8 people pulling off a very specific tactic against 8 people who don't even know who to listen to.

 

lol and yes this happens so often. In thousands and thousands of warzones on 5 different servers i have played on I have been against maybe 10 8man premades. This is so not an issue. I mean if you are so against it then when you load in quit the warzone. No one is making you stay to be fodder against a said 8 man premade.

 

Rellik

[Sharee]

But people will continue making excuses for losing instead of excepting the fact that other team was just better then them at a game.

 

Rellik

 

The problem people are complaining about is not that they lost or that the enemy team was better at the game. Those two happen in PUG vs PUG games all the time and everybody is fine with it.

 

No, the problem people are complaining about is that the match was decided before the game even started, due to the odds being heavily stacked in favor of the group made in advance, as opposed to randomly assembled. The problem is matches so heavily unbalanced that one of the teams gets 40 kills while the other gets three. That's just not fun: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104347/we-are-the-champions

 

What happens when you, in real life sports, put a team of professional players against a team of amateur players? The pros win. It would not be a match, just a beating. That's why you don't put pros against amateurs in real life sports. And thats why pros should not face amateurs in SWTOR warzones either.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Sharee

[maverickmatt]

The problem people are complaining about is not that they lost or that the enemy team was better at the game. Those two happen in PUG vs PUG games all the time and everybody is fine with it.

 

No, the problem people are complaining about is that the match was decided before the game even started, due to the odds being heavily stacked in favor of the group made in advance, as opposed to randomly assembled. The problem is matches so heavily unbalanced that one of the teams gets 40 kills while the other gets three. That's just not fun: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104347/we-are-the-champions

 

What happens when you, in real life sports, put a team of professional players against a team of amateur players? The pros win. It would not be a match, just a beating. That's why you don't put pros against amateurs in real life sports. And thats why pros should not face amateurs in SWTOR warzones either.

 

I've made the same arguments. The only retort that anyone has for it is, "You can't compare this to sports. We aren't being paid. It's not the same."

 

The truth is that SWTOR IS a sport for some, and it's just a fun game for others. If you were at a community basketball court playing pick-up with whoever happened to be there, and the Miami Heat rolled in and began dominating, at some point you would want to go elsewhere if only to remove yourself from the faceroll.

 

The same applies to this game. Premades (excluding the casual player premades) have the same advantages the Heat have over the Pick-up group.

 

You could go as narrow as to call it damaging to the integrity of the game, and as broad as to name it collusion.

 

Collusion is an agreement between two or more parties to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair advantage.

 

While forming premades and demolishing Pugs is NOT against TOS, EULA, or the law, it IS an agreement to limit open competition by gaining what you could consider an unfair advantage.

 

Sure, ALL players could form premades and do the same, but then again all corporations could do things that would be considered collusion to gain a competitive advantage. That doesn't mean they want to, or that they should have to.

Edited June 23, 2013 by maverickmatt

[Comfterbilly]

Yeah random group awareness is a great counter for a super queued 8 man with 4 stealths coordinating a cap-block, all synchronizing when they're going to come unstealthed so there's no way the other team can meet their objective. 8 people who never played with each other before should have plenty of time to decide who's the leader and what strategy to call out. Not like you'll get 8 people pulling off a very specific tactic against 8 people who don't even know who to listen to.

 

lol and yes this happens so often. In thousands and thousands of warzones on 5 different servers i have played on I have been against maybe 10 8man premades. This is so not an issue. I mean if you are so against it then when you load in quit the warzone. No one is making you stay to be fodder against a said 8 man premade.

 

Rellik

 

This week and next week, with double XP weekend, with whole sets of guilds wanting to level in regs together, it's a big issue. Lots of them will be leveling more than just one toon and it will take more than just these couple weekends plus more, so we'll be putting up with it for at least six weeks at these levels.

 

BTW, can anyone think of a more constructive use of BW's Double XP weekend promotion? I definitely notice all the extra people logging on who don't normally log on, in PVP. So as far as game population goes, can we all see how awesome it is that thousands of PVP'ers who have all but given up on the game have returned just to review how despicable it is that this crap is still allowed to go on in regs queue? Now they can all rage quit in disgust again - mission accomplished, super-queuers: mission accompished.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[DariusCalera]

This week and next week, with double XP weekend, with whole sets of guilds wanting to level in regs together, it's a big issue. Lots of them will be leveling more than just one toon and it will take more than just these couple weekends plus more, so we'll be putting up with it for at least six weeks at these levels.

 

BTW, can anyone think of a more constructive use of BW's Double XP weekend promotion? I definitely notice all the extra people logging on who don't normally log on, in PVP. So as far as game population goes, can we all see how awesome it is that thousands of PVP'ers who have all but given up on the game have returned just to review how despicable it is that this crap is still allowed to go on in regs queue? Now they can all rage quit in disgust again - mission accomplished, super-queuers: mission accompished.

 

You're forgetting the other side of that. You now also have a whole host of new PvPers that have never PvPed getting rolled just as badly by more experienced PuG groups. Don't say that it doesn't happen, or that it is rare, because it is happening a lot this weekend. Probably more than the actual premade stompings.

[rlamela]

The problem people are complaining about is not that they lost or that the enemy team was better at the game. Those two happen in PUG vs PUG games all the time and everybody is fine with it.

 

No, the problem people are complaining about is that the match was decided before the game even started, due to the odds being heavily stacked in favor of the group made in advance, as opposed to randomly assembled. The problem is matches so heavily unbalanced that one of the teams gets 40 kills while the other gets three. That's just not fun: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104347/we-are-the-champions

 

What happens when you, in real life sports, put a team of professional players against a team of amateur players? The pros win. It would not be a match, just a beating. That's why you don't put pros against amateurs in real life sports. And thats why pros should not face amateurs in SWTOR warzones either.

 

it is the problem, people make excuses. period. I have zero issues playing against premades and I solo queue. I beat premades regularly in full pug groups. Having a premade doesnt guarantee a victory. This is an excuse bads make for losing. Fix match making (and by fix I mean actually implement a matchmaking system.)

 

Rellik

Edited June 23, 2013 by rlamela

[Sharee]

Having a premade doesnt guarantee a victory.

 

No it does not. In the same sense that walking on hot coals does not guarantee burned feet. SOME can do it. But most can't. If this was such a non-issue as you make it up to be, then this thread would hardly hold the record of maximum replies on the PvP board, would it.

[DariusCalera]

No it does not. In the same sense that walking on hot coals does not guarantee burned feet. SOME can do it. But most can't. If this was such a non-issue as you make it up to be, then this thread would hardly hold the record of maximum replies on the PvP board, would it.

 

If people were able to accept that they might not be their own special snowflake and realize that you will be beaten, badly, at times then this thread would not even exist.

[Comfterbilly]

If people were able to accept that they might not be their own special snowflake and realize that you will be beaten, badly, at times then this thread would not even exist.

 

What a good point lol. BW should put that in their ads, somehow. If they could just think of a way to market warzones people will hate, it will be a top seller.

[cashogy_reborn]

If people were able to accept that they might not be their own special snowflake and realize that you will be beaten, badly, at times then this thread would not even exist.

 

[Doomsdaycomes]

I've made the same arguments. The only retort that anyone has for it is, "You can't compare this to sports. We aren't being paid. It's not the same."

 

The truth is that SWTOR IS a sport for some, and it's just a fun game for others. If you were at a community basketball court playing pick-up with whoever happened to be there, and the Miami Heat rolled in and began dominating, at some point you would want to go elsewhere if only to remove yourself from the faceroll.

 

The same applies to this game. Premades (excluding the casual player premades) have the same advantages the Heat have over the Pick-up group.

 

It's a poor example for a simple reason:

 

Premade/Groups have no power over their opponents. So while in your example the it's like a Pro sports team showing up to a community center's pick up game, it could easily be said that it's like a rag tag pick up group entering a Sports competition, then wonder why the hell all these good teams are playing against them.

 

Regular warzones are not casual warzones, or PuG-only warzones. Until people recognize that, they will continue to blame the enemy for being "over-prepared." There is no reason 4 players wouldn't team up, coordinate, and play together. If their opponents don't do the same... It's not like those 4 players had any control over making sure their opponents are ready.

 

In addition, the tasks one should do to be "competitive" in regular matches are easy. They are no where near the level or commitment of a "Pro Sports team," and they are not unreasonable to expect others to do the same.

 

Disclaimer: 1) No, I don't think the current situation is healthy. 2) No I am not referring to 8-man premades, I've already expressed these are both rare and breaking/exploiting the mechanics to get into regular matches together. 3) I think the best solution is some kind of matchmaking.

[Doomsdaycomes]

BTW, can anyone think of a more constructive use of BW's Double XP weekend promotion? I definitely notice all the extra people logging on who don't normally log on, in PVP. So as far as game population goes, can we all see how awesome it is that thousands of PVP'ers who have all but given up on the game have returned just to review how despicable it is that this crap is still allowed to go on in regs queue? Now they can all rage quit in disgust again - mission accomplished, super-queuers: mission accompished.

 

Oh stop being butt hurt.

 

I've been queue'ing solo almost the entire weekend leveling 3 toons and not had a single issue with a "premade" in the regular queue. Even the ones I've faced have been "Meh."

 

Now have the conviction to defend your arguments or do as you threaten: Quit!

[rlamela]

No it does not. In the same sense that walking on hot coals does not guarantee burned feet. SOME can do it. But most can't. If this was such a non-issue as you make it up to be, then this thread would hardly hold the record of maximum replies on the PvP board, would it.

 

more excuses. until people eliminate the excuses they will never improve as a player.

WHY DOES EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO BAN PREMADES ALWAYS IGNORE THE FACT THAT THE LACK OF A MATCHMAKING SYSTEM IS THE REAL PROBLEM. Every time i mention this they leave it out of the quote they respond to. The reason teams get destroyed in pvp has very little to do with Gear, Premades or Classes being overpowered. The real reason this happens is because bioware takes nothing into consideration when grouping 8 people together. They just grab first 8 people who queued up. And as long as this is the system they use to make pvp groups you will have uneven warzones. Its not the premades fault, its not the pug teams fault who got better players then the other pug group.

 

RELLIK

[Speedhacker]

I get very frustrated with getting matched up with premades when I solo queue. While the argument "premade does not equal a win" is true, somehow I end up in WZ's against the good teams and not the scrub pve guild groups that queue together.

 

I shouldn't have to make my own premade just to enjoy some casual PvP. I like random/non-rated warzones and if I wanted to run with a team I would be doing rated matches.

 

Let solo pvpers fight other solo pvpers and let groups fight groups. It's a win/win for everyone.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I shouldn't have to make my own premade just to enjoy some casual PvP. I like random/non-rated warzones and if I wanted to run with a team I would be doing rated matches.

 

Let solo pvpers fight other solo pvpers and let groups fight groups. It's a win/win for everyone.

 

Few things:

 

To the bolded part: This is a false argument. A group in regular is up to 4 people. A ranked group is 8 people. There is a difference of 4 people between the two. It's about the same as saying someone who does Planetary Dailies must also be a 16-man Raider because they "like" PvE. I don't Raid, but I do dailies and some Flashpoints. Primarily I PvP. They are not the same.

 

I'd be happy to allow PuG to fight PuG, as long as there is either:

 

1.) An incentive for single players to enter the regular queue, so that the regular queue has back fill and filling for incomplete groups. This would mean the PuG-only bracket receives less comms/credits for their exclusion from the tougher competition.

 

-or-

 

2.) A "soft" barrier between the two. This is matchmaking, that facilitates High Skill vs Higher Skill matches and Lower Skill vs Lower Skill matches, while adapting to keep queue's shorter.

 

Else wise the "solution" only causes more problems.