Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[rlamela]

first off, gear is available to everyone. if you prepare for PvP while leveling you can get almost 50% of your partisan gear right off the bat..

 

LoL. they can do alot better then half. I re-rolled a new toon on The Bastion after Bioware made the Bolster Augment Glitch fix. Was only toon on servers Legacy. When I hit 55 I bought Conqueror Weapon, 2 Conqueror Relics, Conqueror Bracers. Which Means I also bought Partisan Weapon and Bracers to turn in. I then Bought Partisan Off Hand, Boots, Chest, Belt, Gloves & Hat. I kept the purple level 54 Earpiece and 2 implants since they are suppose to be best in slot. So as soon as I hit 55 I had 28K+ health with 2012 expertise in warzones. I did this by stockpiling 22 lowbie pvp weapons (keeping them on the timers by returning them every 2 hours). Its so funny how even after bioware gives the bads endgame bolster they still use gear as an excuse of why they lose.

 

Rellik

Edited June 23, 2013 by rlamela

[Comfterbilly]

WTB a lowbie queue for my new alt that isn't roach infested with super-queueing guilds on an 8 man.

[Comfterbilly]

yes, different people have different skill levels, thats why we need matchmaking in order to get fair games. Glad to see you finally understand.

 

You don't even understand your own example, idiot.

[MotorCityMan]

 

There is absolutely nothing that a premade does that is not available to a solo queuer. If the solo queuer chooses not to utilize the mechanics that are in game that that is on them, and not on Bioware.

 

You also missed a fourth choice. The solo queuer can continue to solo queue, to study their opponents, and study the WZs there by getting better at the game and improving their performance. An improvement in performance will mean that the "face rolling" will happen less often because they can contribute more to their team.

 

Right, a solo queuer can either become part of a competitive premade, continue to get facerolled, or quit. A number of players have said that for some reason or other they wish to participate in warzones free of competitive teams, or premades. Many players are requesting this. They don't need to justify why they want it. This isn't an argument. Either Bioware provides it, or they don't.

Personally, instanced pug farming is hardly my idea of pvp. But if you all wanna try and convince yourselves that it's the real deal, have at it.

[Doomsdaycomes]

You don't even understand your own example, idiot.

 

No, you don't get to call people idiots until you explain how you can both have enough PuG's willing to quit to destabilize the regular queue, and yet say there will be enough PuG's in the regular queue once you give the quitters a PuG-only bracket.

 

You can't say "More will join" because in either example, more PuG's could join at any time. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

So no temper tantrums Comfty.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Right, a solo queuer can either become part of a competitive premade, continue to get facerolled, or quit. A number of players have said that for some reason or other they wish to participate in warzones free of competitive teams, or premades. Many players are requesting this. They don't need to justify why they want it. This isn't an argument. Either Bioware provides it, or they don't.

Personally, instanced pug farming is hardly my idea of pvp. But if you all wanna try and convince yourselves that it's the real deal, have at it.

 

Let's not forget, there are some mostly solo-queue'rs in here that do not share your gloomy and doom mentality. I could be wrong, but I believe Cash is one of them (Cash, can you confirm if you please?).

 

Of course, not all solo-queue'rs are bad or unskilled. In fact, many of them are quite "skilled" in terms of 1 vs 1. The issues is... this game is not about 1 vs 1. It's a team based pvp, and any kind of anti-team mentality really doesn't help the solo-queuer. You could be the best duelist in the world, capable of handling 1 vs 2 and maybe even 1 vs 3... but you can't defend 2 nodes by yourself, you can't run a huttball without protection, etc...

 

So now to my main point here: Solo-centric queuing is just a bad "play style." It is literally no better than Clicking vs. Keybinding. Maybe someone finds Clicking fun, or somehow a measure of skill greater then keybinds (Ha! I beat you, and I'm clicking!) but in almost all cases Keybinds are a far superior way of play. A player refusing to use the better option of play garners no sympathy from other players.

 

A few examples:

 

Strength built Commandos: Commandos have the option to wear Heavy, strength based equipment. A player who thinks this is fun, or somehow believes this makes their stock strike uber damaging (and it takes skill to run up on a commando and stock strike someone to death!) is not entitled to a Strength-only Commando queue.

 

Legacy Karate: A match with only Legacy martial arts moves would be a blast! Still, a player who refuses to use their abilities because killing someone with Legacy moves is... not entitled to a Legacy only queue.

 

Solo-only is not a "Play style." It's purposefully gimping yourself. If you want to do so, so be it, but don't expect all your opponents to do the same.

 

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I feel the need to add a disclaimer: I'm still for matchmaking and recognize that matchmaking is likely to help PuG-only players feel justified in their choice. Bi-products of a system that will allow for more competive matches.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[akabane_k]

I'll explain it slowly, I said that queing up with some random people is a premade. However, you gain no benefit, since these people are simply a subset of those queing, and you would most likely get them on your team if you didn't premade. You insisted that it is still unfair, but the only difference is their individual skill and willingness to premade. Therefore, what you want is to balance around skill, which is matchmaking.

 

The only way that all premades have an advantage is for the people that premade to have a higher average skill level.

Therefore a solo only queue is simply a less effective version of a matchmaking system. It has no additional benefits, and some downsides such as increased queue time, exploiting the queue, and uneven skill when solo queuing.

[Sharee]

thats what you took from my post. I clearly stated that Biowares way of making a group is exploitable. 8 friends can join a op group and in vent say hit solo queue now. And with Biowares system there is a great chance all 8 could end up on same team. solo queue doesn't change this.

 

Sure, it is possible they will all end up on the same team. But it is also possible they will end up spread over several different warzones. Team composition is no longer guaranteed, as opposed to current situation.

 

Also, i wasn't proposing a separate solo queue, but rather an option for players to avoid playing with premades while still being in the same queue(the player using the option will simply be skipped when server is composing teams as long as there are groups involved). That way, premades still join as a group and the solo-queuing player who chooses to do so can completely avoid them 100% of the time(at the cost of having longer queue time himslef - it's a tradeoff).

[Doomsdaycomes]

Also, i wasn't proposing a separate solo queue, but rather an option for players to avoid playing with premades while still being in the same queue(the player using the option will simply be skipped when server is composing teams as long as there are groups involved). That way, premades still join as a group and the solo-queuing player who chooses to do so can completely avoid them 100% of the time(at the cost of having longer queue time himslef - it's a tradeoff).

 

An interesting idea.

 

I still feel the best option is matchmaking, so that the solo-only queue'r (despite my beliefs on the legitimacy of their "play style") is not the only one penalized for (hopefully) less lopsided matches.

 

The above idea quoted though is worth consideration, should anyone at Bioware be watching. I have no other criticism at this time of it.

[Sharee]

So now to my main point here: Solo-centric queuing is just a bad "play style."

 

Its only a bad play style when the other team is using a different play style. When both teams are using this so-called "bad playstyle" then the game is in fact fun for both teams.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Sharee

[DariusCalera]

Right, a solo queuer can either become part of a competitive premade, continue to get facerolled, or quit. A number of players have said that for some reason or other they wish to participate in warzones free of competitive teams, or premades. Many players are requesting this. They don't need to justify why they want it. This isn't an argument. Either Bioware provides it, or they don't.

Personally, instanced pug farming is hardly my idea of pvp. But if you all wanna try and convince yourselves that it's the real deal, have at it.

 

You still left out that fourth choice I mentioned. No where is it written that a PuG team will automatically get face rolled by a premade. What it takes to stop those mean face rolling premades is a group of players that are willing to work together, understand the objectives of a WZ, and understand what is needed to be done to accomplish those objectives.

 

Yes, they might still get face rolled but they will have a better shot of it than 8 random players running around death matching when they should be trying to cap, or guard, something.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Its only a bad play style when the other team is using a different play style. When both teams are using this so-called "bad playstyle" then the game is in fact fun for both teams.

 

I think that's probably the main issue of debate between us here.

 

We can agree there is only one objective (the game knows) of a warzone, which is to win right?

 

The game also has one ruleset: 1-4 people may queue.

 

Under the games current ruleset, there should be no expectation that the other team has to play by a "solo-only" play style.

 

And there in comes the question: Can there be a solo-only "play style" if the game doesn't allow it?

[Comfterbilly]

You still left out that fourth choice I mentioned. No where is it written that a PuG team will automatically get face rolled by a premade. What it takes to stop those mean face rolling premades is a group of players that are willing to work together, understand the objectives of a WZ, and understand what is needed to be done to accomplish those objectives.

 

Yeah random group awareness is a great counter for a super queued 8 man with 4 stealths coordinating a cap-block, all synchronizing when they're going to come unstealthed so there's no way the other team can meet their objective. 8 people who never played with each other before should have plenty of time to decide who's the leader and what strategy to call out. Not like you'll get 8 people pulling off a very specific tactic against 8 people who don't even know who to listen to.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[Sharee]

You still left out that fourth choice I mentioned. No where is it written that a PuG team will automatically get face rolled by a premade. What it takes to stop those mean face rolling premades is a group of players that are willing to work together, understand the objectives of a WZ, and understand what is needed to be done to accomplish those objectives. .

 

So basically, you don't need a premade to beat a premade, you just need a PUG that plays like a premade, coordinates like a premade, knows each others strenghts and weaknesses as a premade, knows every nuance of the warzone like a premade...

 

Dude. That's the whole effin point. Pug's just DON'T PERFORM like a premade does. That is why this thread exists in the firstplace!

[SajPl]

Yeah random group awareness is a great counter for a super queued 8 man with 4 stealths coordinating a cap-block, all synchronizing when they're going to come unstealthed so there's no way the other team can meet their objective. 8 people who never played with each other before should have plenty of time to decide who's the leader and what strategy to call out. Not like you'll get 8 people pulling off a very specific tactic against 8 people who don't even know who to listen to.

 

So nowadays there are only 8 man premades with 4 stealthers in every single game? Interesting ....

[Sharee]

And there in comes the question: Can there be a solo-only "play style" if the game doesn't allow it?

 

Last time i checked there was a 'queue for warzone solo' button. As long as it stays there, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone the game 'does not allow it'.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Last time i checked there was a 'queue for warzone solo' button. As long as it stays there, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone the game 'does not allow it'.

 

The game allows you to wear Strength Based armor as a commando. Is that a valid Playstyle?

[Sharee]

The game allows you to wear Strength Based armor as a commando. Is that a valid Playstyle?

 

Is there an user interface button that prompts you to wear strength based armor as a commando?

[Doomsdaycomes]

Is there an user interface button that prompts you to wear strength based armor as a commando?

 

Doesn't have to be, it's just a possibility.

 

But let's go for a less "obviously stupid player" example:

 

You are allowed to allocate your points to any of 3 trees. The game allows and provides the means to split along any of the three paths. It is possible to do a near even split evenly along all 3 lines.

 

Yet the most optimal builds (with few exceptions) are those that hit the top teir in 1 tree and then branch out into the others. Choosing between the 3 trees is a question of playstyle.

 

If someone gimps themselves by choosing some kind of 3 way even split, they have no expectation others will use the same inferior option.

[Sharee]

Doesn't have to be, it's just a possibility.

 

But let's go for a less "obviously stupid player" example:

 

You are allowed to allocate your points to any of 3 trees. The game allows and provides the means to split along any of the three paths. It is possible to do a near even split evenly along all 3 lines.

 

Yet the most optimal builds (with few exceptions) are those that hit the top teir in 1 tree and then branch out into the others. Choosing between the 3 trees is a question of playstyle.

 

If someone gimps themselves by choosing some kind of 3 way even split, they have no expectation others will use the same inferior option.

 

I don't see how the above supports your claim that the game does not allow for solo-queueing playstyle.

 

If anything, that the game allows you to spec in wildly ineffective ways suggests the game encourages other playstyles than what is 'best'. Otherwise there would be no spec trees, but only a linear progression through a predefined path.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I don't see how the above supports your claim that the game does not allow for solo-queueing playstyle.

 

If anything, that the game allows you to spec in wildly ineffective ways suggests the game encourages other playstyles than what is 'best'. Otherwise there would be no spec trees, but only a linear progression through a predefined path.

 

I guess the part where we disagree is where each "play style" should be valid and/or equal to others.

 

To me, the difference in valid play styles is like playing a Jugg Vs. playing a Powertech. Though not equal in every situation, a player should have the same ability to level, make money, obtain crafting skills, have companions, have a role in group content, etc...

 

Choices involving whether you participate in certain tools or content are invalid to me. This usually get's me in trouble with PvP'ers (and some PvE'ers) as I tend to have such opinions as: Everyone should Keybind, Everyone should do planetary dailies, There should be some BiS gear you can only receive from PvP, etc...

 

I do want to thank you for your courtesy and manners though, even though we may have to agree to disagree in this particular area.

[Comfterbilly]

I guess the part where we disagree is where each "play style" should be valid and/or equal to others.

 

All you're doing and all you have been doing, is setting up your own paper tigers to knock down, hoping someone believes they are real. If I take out all the B.S. in your set of statements (can't really call them an argument), there's literally nothing left of them.

 

The strategic thing to do is just give your argument enough rope to hang itself, but you're like a delusional cat caught in a dozen nooses, but thinks it's caught a mouse.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[Doomsdaycomes]

All you're doing and all you have been doing, is setting up your own paper tigers to knock down, hoping someone believes they are real. If I take out all the B.S. in your set of statements (can't really call them an argument), there's literally nothing left of them.

 

The strategic thing to do is just give your argument enough rope to hang itself, but like you're like a delusional cat caught in a dozen nooses, but thinks it's caught a mouse.

 

No, you don't get to call people idiots until you explain how you can both have enough PuG's willing to quit to destabilize the regular queue, and yet say there will be enough PuG's in the regular queue once you give the quitters a PuG-only bracket.

 

You can't say "More will join" because in either example, more PuG's could join at any time. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

So no temper tantrums Comfty.

[Nairolfus]

Is this for real?

 

I mean, I'm alway playing solo in PvP but I don't have a problem with having 4-man teams against me.

 

All you noobs should just L2P

[MotorCityMan]

Is this for real?

 

I mean, I'm alway playing solo in PvP but I don't have a problem with having 4-man teams against me.

 

All you noobs should just L2P

 

You heep big warrior. Strong the force is with you, young jedi.