***Official PvE Progression V2***

[mastirkal]

Just saying that a group of Pugs (3 different guilds combined) Did HM TfB 55 early tuesday morning, only reason we stopped was because servers were going to restart in <30 minutes... TfB HM 55 isn't that hard, in terms of progression I would say there really isn't any - it's the exact same fight as at 50, just more HP.

 

Did you get to op 9 and/or TfB? I'm just going to take a guess and say no, no you didn't. Both of those fights take good coordination and team practice.

Edited May 3, 2013 by mastirkal

[DarthPanopticus]

Since I'm new to posting in this thread I won't get involved in the debate as to what constitutes real "progression" but I would like to point out that people have been very dismissive of other guilds efforts when the sum up the state of Imperial raiding. Just because SC hasn't posted in this thread before yesterday doesn't mean we haven't been "progression raiding". We've been clearing the top content since launch as it comes out with the sole exception of NM EC because of real life issues with the raid team at the time. There are also other guilds clearing the content who don't bother to post in this thread. For instance, I'm pretty sure <Empire> did a full 2.0 TFB HM clear much earlier that some of the guilds who have posted in this thread, they just haven't taken the time to post about it. Commenting on the state of other guilds raiding without knowing the details is not very conducive to a friendly atmosphere in this thread.

 

 

 

As far as Imperial faction raid guilds go, we consider ourselves (<CI>) and <PoS> as the only *true* progression guilds. It is our understanding that <SC> is forming a new raid team constructed from some former <Empire> members, and that some raid team members from <United> recently joined <PoS>. We are very excited for more Empire side progression teams!

 

Not to single out a specific comment, but this is the direct quote that has me thinking that people need an ego check in this thread. While you frame it as an "it's great that people are starting to raid" you do it in a dismissive manner stating that your guilds are the only "real" raiding guilds imp side. First and foremost when it comes to SC, we have two progression teams and are in the process of gearing up a third. While you may have meant nothing by it, stating that we haven't meet your personal standards of raiding until two people from <Empire> joined one of our teams is insulting. Not that it matters, both of the people who you are referring when you speak about <Empire> joining us have had toons within our guild for longer than some people in this thread have been raiding.

 

Having read through this thread I can tell that there is a lot of competition and people want the right to be called "first" at doing stuff, but that can be done without attempting to diminish other people's efforts.

 

As for the debate on TFB HM being progression, either it is or it isn't. If it is considered progression raiding then an addendum should be made to the 16M HM version of the progression charts showing that no one has done a full clear of it yet because there are in fact six bosses in that instance not five.

Edited May 3, 2013 by DarthPanopticus

[Bombbuster]

As some of you have pointed out, there are some imperfections with a subjective list. I'll try and hit the highpoints.

Out of curiosity, what changed between that post and your last one?

My mistake, fixed. I have now included your Dreadtooth 10 stack kill but added it was post 2.0.

I would suggest that the level 50 content should be recorded, but not affect the linear ranking order.

^ This.

Op 9 and TfB are in my opinion a lot harder than the bosses from S&V HM....

I disagree, but I admit my opinion is likely biased from clearing TFB HM 50 for months and months and seeing nothing significantly new in TFB HM 55.

The problem is that this is effectively ranking a TfB HM clear *above* a HM S&V clear, which is a bit odd when the bosses are mechanically identical to the old instance and (in general) tuned far below the bosses in HM S&V. When we can kill Writhing Horror in Hard Mode before the second Male, and when our healers are DPSing during the Dread Guard, I really don't think it should be considered top-tier progression.

^ This. However I do have CI above AM and Aisthesis simply because CI has 12 HM 2.0 kills to AM and Aisthesis' 11. Again, that's a subjective call on my part but I'm not sure if listing them the other way around would make sense to someone checking out the thread to see who has done what. I did say TFB 55 barely counts as progression, I did not say it does not count at all, and to list them the other way around would essentially being saying CI's TFB 55 boss kill counts for nothing. It does not.

 

Hope that clears up some of the fog. The progression list is and will continue to be a living document, subject to evolution and change, and open to suggestions and input. Finally, let me add that I sincerely appreciate how civil the discourse has been.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Bombbuster

[haksilence]

What about the 2.0 16m kills that AM has? those aren't being counted?

 

i think you should reevaluate your scoring system, and i think 16m should be counted since it is part of the progression

 

Obviously its not my thread but that is just what i think.

Edited May 3, 2013 by haksilence

[KeyboardNinja]

What about the 2.0 16m kills that AM has? those aren't being counted?

 

i think you should reevaluate your scoring system, and i think 16m should be counted since it is part of the progression

 

Obviously its not my thread but that is just what i think.

 

Well, there really is no scoring system at work here, and honestly I'm glad that there isn't. Boss scoring is just an excuse for inter-guild drama.

 

Here is what I would propose. With each tier of progression, there should be one operation which is considered to be the primary ordering. In our case, this would be HM S&V. This operation should be bolded to emphasize its significance. There may also be other pieces of content that are considered "progression". When a guild has completed one piece of content but not another, they are ordered below a guild that has completed all the content. When two guilds have completed the same content, they are ordered by time of kill on the ultimate boss of the primary content.

 

Thus, in this system, AM is ranked before Aisthesis, because we've cleared the same bosses and they got Styrak a day before we did. Calamitous Intent should currently be ranked before AM and Aisthesis, since they have cleared more of the content, but they would be ranked after both AM and Aisthesis after we clear TfB, since we cleared Styrak before they did. Wrath remains ranked ahead of UWA since they have both cleared the same content and Wrath got Styrak first, even though UWA was the first to have full guild clears of both operations.

 

Can everyone agree to that? I think this does a good job of reflecting everyone's achievements while still working within the bounds of a linear list. This scheme seems to be what bombbuster is following in any case.

[Bombbuster]

What about the 2.0 16m kills that AM has? those aren't being counted?

 

i think you should reevaluate your scoring system, and i think 16m should be counted since it is part of the progression

 

Obviously its not my thread but that is just what i think.

I added your 16man kill to your guild but traditionally only the first time a guild has killed a boss in HM/NiM has counted towards their progression, whether it was 8 man or 16 man. That said it's important for players to know who is doing 16 man content, in case that's what they are looking for. I have no current plans to list 16 man kills separately (like WoW's 10 man / 25 man lists) because the 16 man list would be sadly tiny. But if that's something you feel strongly enough about you are welcome to start one. Edited May 4, 2013 by Bombbuster

[Bombbuster]

Here is what I would propose. With each tier of progression, there should be one operation which is considered to be the primary ordering. In our case, this would be HM S&V. This operation should be bolded to emphasize its significance. There may also be other pieces of content that are considered "progression". When a guild has completed one piece of content but not another, they are ordered below a guild that has completed all the content. When two guilds have completed the same content, they are ordered by time of kill on the ultimate boss of the primary content.

 

Thus, in this system, AM is ranked before Aisthesis, because we've cleared the same bosses and they got Styrak a day before we did. Calamitous Intent should currently be ranked before AM and Aisthesis, since they have cleared more of the content, but they would be ranked after both AM and Aisthesis after we clear TfB, since we cleared Styrak before they did. Wrath remains ranked ahead of UWA since they have both cleared the same content and Wrath got Styrak first, even though UWA was the first to have full guild clears of both operations.

 

Can everyone agree to that? I think this does a good job of reflecting everyone's achievements while still working within the bounds of a linear list. This scheme seems to be what bombbuster is following in any case.

Yes, this was my intent. Bolding the progression operation will help, and I will incorporate that. As future content is added I will be more clear about where new bosses fit in.

[MrOscarMonster]

Since I'm new to posting in this thread I won't get involved in the debate as to what constitutes real "progression" but I would like to point out that people have been very dismissive of other guilds efforts when the sum up the state of Imperial raiding. Just because SC hasn't posted in this thread before yesterday doesn't mean we haven't been "progression raiding". We've been clearing the top content since launch as it comes out with the sole exception of NM EC because of real life issues with the raid team at the time.

 

We were completely unaware that <SC> did progression raiding (same goes for other unannounced 2.0 progression) since we hadn't seen anything posted here before, and this is where we get almost all our info on progression raiding. We're glad to hear that Empire side progression isn't as dry as we had presumed!

 

I disagree, but I admit my opinion is likely biased from clearing TFB HM 50 for months and months and seeing nothing significantly new in TFB HM 55.

Time. Our main progression group includes three people with significant RL time crunches, and thus we only progression raid about 4-5 hours a week. Our main healer wasn't even with us when we cleared HM S&V for precisely that reason, and our main *group* wasn't even present when we got the server first HM Dash'roode kill. Our only attempts on any bosses in TfB have come as "we finished this other thing, let's take an hour and push HM TfB as much as we can".

 

While of the same tier as S&V, the lower number of bosses and the fact that there are no "real" new mechanics make this raid somewhat easier to clear. The increased health on some adds in Op-9 and TfB require some extra effort, but ultimately the op can easily be cleared in under an hour and a half with a coordinated and skilled raid team. Likewise, the first 6 bosses of S&V don't present much challenge, and the Styrak should be quick to clear once the raid is familiar with the full fight. Our main raid group raids twice a week for 3 hours each time, and we are confident that we can clear both instances each week in the future (we put in extra hours for Styrak with some subs the first time)

 

^ This. However I do have CI above AM and Aisthesis simply because CI has 12 HM 2.0 kills to AM and Aisthesis' 11. Again, that's a subjective call on my part but I'm not sure if listing them the other way around would make sense to someone checking out the thread to see who has done what. I did say TFB 55 barely counts as progression, I did not say it does not count at all, and to list them the other way around would essentially being saying CI's TFB 55 boss kill counts for nothing. It does not.

 

Just out of curiousity, will rankings shift when <AM> and <Aisthesis> clear out TfB? Hats off to you Bombbuster, as always, for compiling and tracking all this stuff.

Edited May 4, 2013 by MrOscarMonster

[ML_DoubleTap]

Army of Light got our first chance to get our progression group together for TfB 8 HM tonight. We are now 4/5.

[Badfenix]

I'll go ahead and speak for the rest of <CI>. We personally believe that both HM TfB and S&V should be considered when ranking in terms of progression. Each op provides unique challenges and checks to the group members, and they drop the same tier of gear. For these reasons, we as a guild consider them essentially equal as raids on a whole. We don't believe that skipping over the most difficult boss in TfB to rush S&V is a valid path of progression, and believe that guilds skipping TfB HM should be penalized in the rankings for incompleteness.

 

55TFB doesn't introduce any new mechanics until you get to the terror and even those are very minor the only change is everyone's gear got *******r for a week or two. There was nothing unique about it compared to TFB 50. When I was still in empire we cleared all the way to terror our first time in there the second week of the 2.0. You would probably be hard pressed to find any serious raiding guilds calling it "progression." The current system of ranking guilds based on SV progression should be the standard.

[Cookiackus]

The Underworld Alliance has cleared HM Golden Fury.

 

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws.com/192750/module_gallery/original/1207829.jpg

[MrOscarMonster]

55TFB doesn't introduce any new mechanics until you get to the terror and even those are very minor the only change is everyone's gear got *******r for a week or two. There was nothing unique about it compared to TFB 50. When I was still in empire we cleared all the way to terror our first time in there the second week of the 2.0. You would probably be hard pressed to find any serious raiding guilds calling it "progression."

 

Since you haven't actually cleared HM TfB completely, I find it difficult to place much value in your opinions on its difficulty. I encourage you to complete the instance fully before bashing it. The fact that so few guilds seem to be able to clear HM TfB, ignoring excuses, suggests that it may be more "progression" then some claim it is. Having cleared both TfB and S&V fully, I honestly don't see much increase in difficulty going from TfB to S&V. Both are relatively easy instances with somewhat challenging final fights.

 

See slightly outdated but relevant to my point quote below:

I will respect your rules on posting clears in this thread. However, I think the fact that no one else has managed to clear HM TFB 55 yet beside <Wrath> is proof alone that HM TFB 55 is more progression than you give it credit.

[Bombbuster]

The Underworld Alliance has cleared HM Golden Fury.

 

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws.com/192750/module_gallery/original/1207829.jpg

A very tough fight, arguably harder than Styrak HM. For now I'll leave it where it is, between TFB 55 HM and Styrak HM, but I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of those who are actively working on Golden Fury HM about where it ranks in difficulty.

[Badfenix]

Since you haven't actually cleared HM TfB completely, I find it difficult to place much value in your opinions on its difficulty. I encourage you to complete the instance fully before bashing it. The fact that so few guilds seem to be able to clear HM TfB, ignoring excuses, suggests that it may be more "progression" then some claim it is. Having cleared both TfB and S&V fully, I honestly don't see much increase in difficulty going from TfB to S&V. Both are relatively easy instances with somewhat challenging final fights.

 

See slightly outdated but relevant to my point quote below:

 

Lol. Just because you are raiding now and guilds like empire and nemesis who would normally be competing with wrath (of the foreskin) for server and world firsts aren't raiding anymore doesn't make you the new server authority on progression. Where were you when nemesis and empire were racing to clear TFB50 the first Sunday it came out for the server first, that was the progression race for TFB, it is now over. Empire went in there after having not done it in 4-5 months and cleared all the way to the terror that should tell you everything you need to know about its difficulty. The fact that so few guilds clear it, is because so few guilds care anymore (on this server) and top tier imperial guilds have quit progression raiding to be more causal allowing other middle tier guilds such as <CI> a chance to fill the void. so don't let your ego get ahead of itself and remember you are where you are on progression because others have stopped trying.

 

/Topic

Edited May 4, 2013 by Badfenix

[KeyboardNinja]

Lol. Just because you are raiding now and guilds like empire and nemesis who would normally be competing with wrath (of the foreskin) for server and world firsts aren't raiding anymore doesn't make you the new server authority on progression. Where were you when nemesis and empire were racing to clear TFB50 the first Sunday it came out for the server first, that was the progression race for TFB, it is now over. Empire went in there after having not done it in 4-5 months and cleared all the way to the terror that should tell you everything you need to know about its difficulty. The fact that so few guilds clear it, is because so few guilds care anymore (on this server) and top tier imperial guilds have quit progression raiding to be more causal allowing other middle tier guilds such as <CI> a chance to fill the void. so don't let your ego get ahead of itself and remember you are where you are on progression because others have stopped trying.

 

/Topic

 

How very constructive.

 

Let's try not to make things quite so elitist. CI has cleared the most difficult content in the game. That's progression, end of story. Despite all if us epeening about how easy HM S&V is, I think we all know that the truly casual guilds aren't going to be clearing it any time soon. HM TfB is also no walk in the park, despite what Bro maintains. Guilds that have cleared it should take pride in the achievement, as indeed it is an achievement irrespective of what other guilds on the server are doing.

[CarneyBravo]

Let's try not to make things quite so elitist..

 

You obviously haven't met many of the CI crew

[Hammerheadtpa]

Wait there is PVE Progression Post 2.0?

[ljenner]

lol this thread

 

tbh I don't take anyone's opinion seriously unless they have a czerka crate'o'matic and a dwedtoof pet but that's just me. Obviously people lack serious gtn progression in this game and it's really sad.

[Badfenix]

How very constructive.

 

It wasn't constructive of him to treat my opinion like im some sort of muggle that doesn't know about raiding in swtor.

[Cookiackus]

I'd like to throw my two cents into this whole debate. First off TFB HM 55 is definitely progression, there is no question about it. The final boss in TFB HM 55 is arguably harder then any boss in HM S&V save the final boss. I would consider that equal progression to HM S&V. That being said HM S&V is a challenging operation that requires everyone to do their respective job well and work together while doing it. I think both of them are great guild accomplishments and any guild that clears them should be proud. The comment about guilds not caring about clearing content is funny to me. Any guild that walks into a raid cares about clearing the content, otherwise why bother walking in there in the first place. I don't think guilds like CI or PoS are now clearing content first on the imp side because other guilds just don't care, I think its because those other guilds lost a lot of members who were the main chunk of their progression raid team. That happens in any MMO but doesn't make any other guild's accomplishments any less meaningful. This server has a fun progression raiding community with some really good raiders in it. The competition to be first is half the fun and having bragging rights is fun as well. We don't want to turn it into an elitest jerk-fest like its slowly becoming, we want to praise everyone's accomplishments. The bottom line is anyone who has already cleared this content can consider themselves a good raiding guild. There will always be issues where some guilds will get to the content before others and clear content that way or they just figure out the correct mechanics first. Either way if they clear it first, its their right to brag about it and I think that is a great accomplishment. Also for people who are saying that the new 2.0 content is too easy please remember that these are only the HM versions of the ops. Nightmare will be coming out soon and I think we will be hard pressed to find anyone who will say that it is easy. If you remember back to EC Nightmare, Kephess was an extremely challenging fight and was very gratifying to clear. I would expect more of the same with the Nightmare versions of TFB 55 and S&V. I just wanted to say that all of the guilds on this thread should be proud of their own accomplishments and should respect the accomplishments of others. We all know the challenges we had with the content and what it took to overcome it, so anyone who does that has my respect for sure. Good Luck to everyone in the future and Thank You!!! Can't wait for TFB NiM 55!!!!

[OmegaStatuZ]

You obviously haven't met many of the CI crew

 

Says the guy who quit CI because we didn't raid during Christmas & New years holiday

Good on you bro! Here's a cookie (>^.^)>o you're obviously more elite then we are

[MrOscarMonster]

It wasn't constructive of him to treat my opinion like im some sort of muggle that doesn't know about raiding in swtor.

 

I treated your opinion as what it was. Your bashing of a raid that you can't seem to complete. Props for the harry potter reference though.

 

Empire went in there after having not done it in 4-5 months and cleared all the way to the terror that should tell you everything you need to know about its difficulty.

 

Clearing all the way to terror tells me that you couldn't beat him. And bashing other guilds who do what you can't doesn't help your case much. I mean "wrath of the foreskin", seriously? This is exactly why no one listens to your delusional ranting.

[Satedbuffalo]

Says the guy who quit CI because we didn't raid during Christmas & New years holiday

Good on you bro! Here's a cookie (>^.^)>o you're obviously more elite then we are

 

I think he quit because your mumble channel is so crass it's monitored by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

 

P.S. - This thread is almost as good as some of the PvP ones.

[Headpunch]

I just wanted to say that all of the guilds on this thread should be proud of their own accomplishments and should respect the accomplishments of others.

 

This.

 

We like to push through the content at our own pace and just enjoy running together in our various raid teams. If the server progression list didn't exist, we'd still take on content at the same pace since it's a great feeling to clear an instance.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Headpunch

[Badfenix]

I treated your opinion as what it was. Your bashing of a raid that you can't seem to complete. Props for the harry potter reference though.

 

 

Clearing all the way to terror tells me that you couldn't beat him. And bashing other guilds who do what you can't doesn't help your case much. I mean "wrath of the foreskin", seriously? This is exactly why no one listens to your delusional ranting.

 

I didn't mean for it to be a bash of your guild or any others 2.0 accomplishments. I think its great people are still pushing content hard and representing our server globally. You were the one who came in this thread and said:

 

Not to detract from <AM> and <Aisthesis>, but clearing TfB HM is well within these guild's abilities, especially given the gear they should have by now. We respect these guilds, but are somewhat perplexed as to why they haven't bothered to complete the instance yet.

 

and put up a list of guilds (2) you thought were the only serious imp side guilds and then started demanding ranking positions of guilds based on what they have and haven't cleared which fit neatly around the same exact content your guild has cleared. Shocker!

 

This is exactly why no one listens to your delusional ranting.

 

You're listening right now by reading this so let me tell you a few more things while I'm taking you to school. You tried so hard pre 2.0 to do things but could never out do empire or wrath or nemesis or underworld alliance. How do I know you tried so hard? I was heavily recruited by sidewinder's raid team (your highest progression raid team?) at one point and while I love playing with him and hes an amazing guy I couldn't be persuaded away from empire.

 

I think most people have taken offense that you got a faction first for the first time in guild history and come on the forums and talk smack about other guilds like you've been knocking out server firsts for the past 12 months. So in conclusion if you come to the forums waving your epeen expect someone with a bigger one to come by and smack you upside the head with theirs. You can keep coming at me I'll go all day, but I hope for the sake of my friends in your guild like nitlly and snickle and others you move along and let this thread return to what it was created for.