This message is just a friendly reminder that the Ebon Hawk community does not endorse win trading in PvE operations. Any systematic exploitation of gearing up the bosses by letting them win 50% of the time will be reported to the appropriate authorities.

First of all, the reason I made my post about stealth capping was not to imply any sort of lack of skill on anyone's part. Far from it, from everything I've heard you all are quite skilled and I'm truly sincere when I say that I think your presence on the server is a good thing. The point to my anecdote was to give evidence that gear is not as important as you claim it to be, and the desire to have better gear should not be enough to make someone want to cheat the system. If you feel that I was doing that in order to somehow berate your skills, then I truly apologize, that was not my intent. As for your other claims, I've never even talked to any of you in game nor have I ever emoted at any of you, so I'm not quite sure where you are getting the idea that I have been whispering you and talking trash. In fact, I went out of my way to even avoid mentioning your names in every single post I've made. The only reason I posted in the first place, was to call the community's attention to the fact that there was exploiting occurring and I wanted to get their input on the matter and hopefully, in a respectful manner, let the people responsible for it know that kind of behavior is not appreciated on the Ebon Hawk. If you note, the reports about trash talking have not come from me or any or anyone in my guild. They were not asked for but were offered by other members of the community who chose to chime in about conduct that they felt was reprehensible. Your accusation of me attempting to slander someone in the shadow forums is completely untrue. In fact, if you had read the post I made, I directed people who had come into that thread to discuss the win trading issue to come to this thread instead because I did not want to see that thread get derailed by name calling (and I did that without even mentioning the subject). I'm glad that Shin was able to have the thread cleaned up so it's not bogged down by this issue. If other people have chosen to do the types of things you are referring to, that's their choice....but don't get it twisted, I have never done those things. Ultimately, this thread would not have ever been created if the choice wasn't made to exploit ranked games and get free comms. If you wish to be treated with respect, then all I can say is that, in my humble opinion, you have made a few mistakes by choosing to act the way you have. That's not an insurmountable barrier to overcome, but if you choose a combative approach to addressing these issues, I think you'll discover that you may not like the responses you get.

Thanks for posting the math on gear differences. I guess the fact that I was able ninja cap a node from one of your members while I was wearing absolutely no pvp gear at all has no bearing on the situation. That being said, you completely ignored the more important of the two points I was making. What does gear have to do with treating others with respect and making a positive impact on our community? Are you saying that because of gear differences it is ok to trash talk and exploit the ranked system?

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It takes a lot of guts to come into a thread like this and make your presence known. The Ebon Hawk has a fairly close knit pvp community and I think that if you take the time to communicate with its members in a respectful manner you'll find your stay here much more enjoyable for all involved. However there are two points I'd like to address. The first is concerning gear. With the advent of 2.0 the gear gap was effectively closed. Prior to it's release, there may have been a significant gear gap between people with multiple sets of min-maxed elite war hero gear and someone just starting out, but with the addition of bolster and the removal of expertise from all the old gear - the playing field has been effectively leveled. The gear gap between someone just starting to pvp today and the best geared person on the server is so small that any dedicated and skilled pvp'er should be able to overcome that in no time - without having to resort to win trading in ranked matches. As it has been pointed out previously in this thread, no amount of gear makes someone a good player, at most it gives them a slight advantage in survivability and the amount of damage they can produce. That being said, I've seen players with absolutely no pvp gear generate a million heals in a match or do over 700k in damage. Were they easier to kill than someone who was fully geared? You bet, but that does not mean they weren't capable of contributing in a positive manner to any team they were on. Having seen it occur on more than one occasion, I'm fairly confident in saying that a group of under-geared players who communicate well can beat even the most geared and feared premades on the server. The second thing I'd like to address is the way that your guild has been treating the other players on this server. Let me direct your attention to a quote taken from a post made by your GM from your guild's website: "We respect good players for being good and that is where it ends. We have no quarrel with anyone, nor do we wish to have any. We're here to hopefully promote a healthier PvP environment, with less egos and more play." Considering this thread has numerous reports of trash talking by members of your guild, and taking into account that win trading is generally seen as an exploit by the majority of the server that you have rolled on, I only have one question for you... How is your guild living up to the standards you have set for yourself? I could be wrong, but I don't think laughing at people in warzones and exploiting the ranked system to get free comms creates a "healthier PvP environment." That is, of course, just my opinion... but I am truly curious to see what the justification is for the types of actions your guild seems to be doing, especially since you want to make a positive impact on the Ebon Hawk pvp community. Despite appearances, I truly am pleased that there has been an influx of new talent to our server and it is my sincere wish that your stay on the Ebon Hawk can help revitalize the limited ranked scene we have here. Treat others the way you wish to be treated and I'm sure that the rest of the community will quickly come to appreciate your presence here. Wishing you all the best, Panopticus

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. What's the differences between exploiting the system to get free comms and using a speed hack to ensure a win in order to get more comms? Is it ok to speed hack in a couple of matches to help you get ahead? I guess one could claim that win-trading is a victimless crime since no one was directly affected by their actions - but considering that they will be using the gear gained from win trading in regular warzones, the people they face there who have been getting gear the normal way will be at a disadvantage...much like they would be if someone they were playing against was using third party content in order to weigh the odds in their favor. That is of course, just my opinion. I understand completely that not everyone will agree with that.

I'm not quite sure who you are referring to in the initial part of your post, SC has never been involved in win trading. If you're referring to Guerrilla or Game Genie, I don't think putting a team together that's capable of beating just about anyone who ques against them in ranked qualifies as win trading. I've fought with and against them both in ranked situations more times than most people on this server and I can honestly say I've never seen that occur. If you have definitive proof otherwise, feel free to post it because that would most certainly be in line with the intent of this thread. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the competitiveness and skill level of those people would ensure that they would be more than willing to face anyone they happened to catch in a ranked que.

Unfortunately, this is what occurred. To go beyond that, people who were invited to the win trading scam were promised "free comms". Drazzen, Sindol and Sappharan - I hear your points about the challenges faced by teams wanting to do ranked but in this specific case they do not apply. With the amount of kickball that SC has done, there have been many times when the matches we were scheduling against each other got interrupted by another team queing and we had to face an elite team with one that consisted of only about half of our geared players. In those instances, we played out the matches and win or lose decided after the fact whether or not we wanted to que up again. If the win trading teams had even for a moment attempted to fight the teams they knew were not their partners in the "free comms" scam, this thread would have not been made. The guild in question chose to take the ques and the instant they realized it wasn't their other team, they left the warzone. On top of that, they weren't even trying to fight each other. They literally just traded wins. Having spoken to several of the people involved, in no way shape or form was this anything other than an attempt to exploit the system and get gear quickly. Imagine how pissed off the pve community would be if they discovered there was a guild who wanted to be first in the server pve rankings and be considered serious raiders who had figured out a way to enter an operation with all the trash cleared and all the bosses already dead and ready to be looted. It would completely invalidate the entire gear grind that is part of the reward to dedicated and skilled players who put the time and effort in to get that gear. I know any thread created on this forum about pvp has a pretty good chance to devolve into people pointing out the challenges faced by new teams taking on the top teams in ranked but there are currently several other threads going right now that would be much more appropriate places to have that discussion. The intent of this thread is to specifically discuss win trading as an exploit of the pvp system. If you feel that queing up for ranked warzones with the intent of not even fighting the team you are playing against in order to sit around and get free comms is acceptable, then feel free to say so. As someone who has over 300 ranked games played in which I fought my hardest no matter who I was facing, I personally feel that what occurred is an exploit and a cheat worse than anything other thing I've ever seen in occur in a warzone.

Apparently recent additions to the Ebon Hawk PvP community feel that the best way to become competitive and get gear is by queing up against themselves and literally just trading wins. Sunday was a sad day for ranked on our server since there was a group doing this all day but anytime anyone actually qued for ranked in order to face them, they quit the warzone instead of facing a potential challenger. I may be in a semi-retired state from PvP but I find this kind of behavior to be absolutely despicable. It's exploiting and cheating the system. Everyone else on this server has gotten their gear in the traditional manner by actually putting in time and effort of running regular warzones all day long or by queing up against stacked ranked premades that provide a serious challenge. You should too. Many of you know that because of the size of my guild we've been able to run ranked kickball games against ourselves in the past, but each and every game has been competitive and both teams tried their hardest to beat the other team. It's one thing to get 16 people who are friends to que up for ranked against each other and play competitively, that happens all the time and because of the state of ranked on our server - sometimes it's all you can hope for. Unfortunately, I have it on extremely good authority that this was not the case today - and that's disgraceful. With all the talk about pvp'ers wanting to transfer to other servers, i find it encouraging that there are people transferring to this server who want to contribute to the pvp community we have here. However, this type of behavior is not only detrimental to the community, it also makes you look extremely bad in the eyes of the people who've made this server their home. No need to name names, you know who you are. Just be aware that the community as a whole is watching you and every single person I talked to today thought your actions were extremely cheap and basically amount to the worst kind of exploiting possible. Perhaps other people feel differently about this issue and if so I invite them to share their thoughts and feelings on the matter here in this thread. - End Rant

Since I'm new to posting in this thread I won't get involved in the debate as to what constitutes real "progression" but I would like to point out that people have been very dismissive of other guilds efforts when the sum up the state of Imperial raiding. Just because SC hasn't posted in this thread before yesterday doesn't mean we haven't been "progression raiding". We've been clearing the top content since launch as it comes out with the sole exception of NM EC because of real life issues with the raid team at the time. There are also other guilds clearing the content who don't bother to post in this thread. For instance, I'm pretty sure <Empire> did a full 2.0 TFB HM clear much earlier that some of the guilds who have posted in this thread, they just haven't taken the time to post about it. Commenting on the state of other guilds raiding without knowing the details is not very conducive to a friendly atmosphere in this thread. Not to single out a specific comment, but this is the direct quote that has me thinking that people need an ego check in this thread. While you frame it as an "it's great that people are starting to raid" you do it in a dismissive manner stating that your guilds are the only "real" raiding guilds imp side. First and foremost when it comes to SC, we have two progression teams and are in the process of gearing up a third. While you may have meant nothing by it, stating that we haven't meet your personal standards of raiding until two people from <Empire> joined one of our teams is insulting. Not that it matters, both of the people who you are referring when you speak about <Empire> joining us have had toons within our guild for longer than some people in this thread have been raiding. Having read through this thread I can tell that there is a lot of competition and people want the right to be called "first" at doing stuff, but that can be done without attempting to diminish other people's efforts. As for the debate on TFB HM being progression, either it is or it isn't. If it is considered progression raiding then an addendum should be made to the 16M HM version of the progression charts showing that no one has done a full clear of it yet because there are in fact six bosses in that instance not five.

Thanks for adding us to the list! I guess I understand not adding the dreadtooth kill to our list...however, I only added it because you specifically said... Out of curiosity, what changed between that post and your last one? Does that mean that guilds can't come and post them clearing EV,KP and even EC Nightmare anymore? I'm really only asking for clarification, if there is a standard that I was unaware of, it should be across the boards. So is this now a thread to only post that you have cleared TFB & S&V in?

Yup, he meant to post 4/5 but that's what you get at the end of a long work day followed by raid....being bad at math

Hey there, just realized I hadn't made an official post for my guild according the thread format, so here it is Thanks for putting this together! Imperial <Silent Council> More Info: http://www.silentcouncil.com Eternity Vault: 5/5 SM, HM, NM 8M & 16M Karagga's Palace: 5/5 SM, HM, NM 8M & 16M Explosive Conflict: 4/4 SM 8M, 4/4 HM 8M, 4/4 SM 16M Terror from Beyond: 5/5 SM, 5/5 HM 8M TFB 55: 5/5 SM (4/10/2013 Server First), 2/5 HM 8M S&V: 7/7 SM 8M (Server First (4/11/2013)) Dreadtooth 10 Stack (It was a full guild run & pretty sure a server first ) - Youtube Video -

Good job everyone! My two favorite parts of the video are: A) Right at the beginning when someone says "because %*%*%* you - that's what they should say every time you get a Jawa-gram in a Cartel Box" and B) When the video gets better because Bromontana dies. (Love you Bro but you're a much better camera man when you are dead)

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31500000/Cake-love-31539149-459-327.jpg

Yay! Not that we needed it, but I'm quite glad you've given us permission to do so because that's what being Sith and in a pvp zone is all about! I would like to clarify one point though, you put yourself on the KoS list by your actions on Illum. The "evidence" i was referring to was the fact that you were posting up in general that you were demanding tribute. That alone was cause enough for the events that followed. Since we'd already declared war on any guild who was on Illum that chose to get their jollies out of ganking people who just wanted to do a quest, it was only natural that your people got killed as a result of your actions. As for being politely asked to leave us alone, well that certainly didn't come from me. I explained to my guild members what the ramifications of our declaration of war would be and fully expected SC to be KoS by pvp'ers because of it. You certainly didn't do us any favors by letting people do their quest. If SC members needed to do their quest, they had an army at their disposal to back them up when they wanted to do so - as you found out. Also, your claim to be leaving SC members alone is not as true of a statement as you'd like it to be, because I can quite clearly see from your screenshot that you killed at least one of our members during your attempted Illum conquest. It's funny how you glorify being a "blackhat" but then when there's a direct retaliation to your choice to do that and someone calls you out for being hypocritical about being mad over someone in your guild being attacked in a pvp zone - you get all heated and start trying to justify your actions while at the same time begin to call people names for standing up to you. Either accept the role of blackhat and all that comes with it, or just give it a rest already. I've said my piece. You've made it clear that you are enraged that someone you know got killed in a pvp zone in a thread that you created to highlight how "awesome" you are for making people mad by killing them on Illum. Since it's clear you have a definite case of "must have the last say-itis," I'll let you respond to this post and be done with the whole thing. Have a nice day!