Barathos Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 ... they have an ENTIRE QUEST LINE that serves as the 'epic class quest'. Not only that, it's designed to be soloed (duoed if you count a companion as a person) and that alone is supposed to teach you about your class Wow... just... wow Ok those "class quests" are just "quests" in the grand scheme of things. I think he's talking about the amount of time/skill required to complete those quests. Like the epic weapon quests in EQ1? The opening quest for Ahn'Qiraj in WoW? The class quest final bosses are just regular elite mobs, nothing major. Story is awesome though, but that's it's only "amazing" part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazikeen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'm not *********** comparing it to WoW. THERE ARE ONLY 4-5 SPACE MISSIONS THE REST ARE REPEATS. This is me talking about TOR and only TOR. If you're going to have something around 10-12 space missions, make them unique... especially if they're on rails. What part of my earlier posts did you not understand? SWTOR was released prematurely. They can either duplicate missions and make them more difficult or they can stop at level 30 and let the higher levels go without Which do you think is a better business decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantragk Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 What part of my earlier posts did you not understand? SWTOR was released prematurely. They can either duplicate missions and make them more difficult or they can stop at level 30 and let the higher levels go without Which do you think is a better business decision? How about you not release the game prematurely? BW should have enough balls to come out and say: "The game is not ready." They were just trying to get the jump on the new WoW expansion, Diablo 3, and GW2. Nothing more, nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Hundreds of millions of dollars and how many years of development later, TOR? Right. I think people are perfectly justified in comparing the two as they are, today. If you're a customer and you're choosing which product to buy, you're buying and playing TODAY's PRODUCT. Not WoW's 7 years ago, not WoW's 4 years ago... not what TOR's might become at some random point in the future. You can only consume either product as they're being presented to you right now. Why in the world wouldn't you compare them. People are ridiculous. If somebody wants to buy WoW plus all of it's expansions, go right ahead. Beware though, you're going to need to buy Pandaland soon for another $40. I'd rather start off with something new that will last longer. SWTOR has the most potential and upside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazikeen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ok those "class quests" are just "quests" in the grand scheme of things. I think he's talking about the amount of time/skill required to complete those quests. Like the epic weapon quests in EQ1? The opening quest for Ahn'Qiraj in WoW? The class quest final bosses are just regular elite mobs, nothing major. Story is awesome though, but that's it's only "amazing" part. 'Epic' quests tend to be done by the minority. In addition, 'epic' quests tend to be added after the player base has matured to the point of being able to do them. Adding massive, time-consuming quests when a game releases and very few are 50 makes no sense AQ was released in patch 1.9 (so right before the first expansion) and class quests in EQ weren't available until Kunark The class quest in SWTOR takes quite a bit of time (compared to other 'side' quests) and can easily be considered epic, comparatively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 'Epic' quests tend to be done by the minority. In addition, 'epic' quests tend to be added after the player base has matured to the point of being able to do them. Adding massive, time-consuming quests when a game releases and very few are 50 makes no sense AQ was released in patch 1.9 (so right before the first expansion) and class quests in EQ weren't available until Kunark The class quest in SWTOR takes quite a bit of time (compared to other 'side' quests) and can easily be considered epic, comparatively I think what he's saying is, you're doing the same types of things you do on other quests - go here, talk to him, kill them, etc. Except it progresses a story about your character specifically along. As a side note, 1.9 was not the last patch before the expansion... you're forgetting the incredible original Naxxramas in 1.11 and I think there was even a 1.12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aepervius Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 To the OP : your "appeal to authority" fallacy noted. Your past carrier , your activities, your e-sport rating do not matter. What matters is : are your conclusion based on facts, which is not the case. I agree on some of your facts but not on your conclusion, which more opinionated than anything else. That said, I find all MMO boring after a while the first year they come out. Once their kinks are gone , after 12 to 18 month, they start to be very good usually. I made an exception for ToR because I played too much KoToR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazikeen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 How about you not release the game prematurely? BW should have enough balls to come out and say: "The game is not ready." They were just trying to get the jump on the new WoW expansion, Diablo 3, and GW2. Nothing more, nothing less. They tried that, repeatedly. Did you SEE these forums before the release announcement? It was like a pack of rabid, frothing, hungry and mildly insane internet dogs I personally think they did an excellent job getting the important things in before they had to release it. Plus you have to realize investors were unhappy with how long it was taking PLUS the fact the holiday season was close. They had no choice, and I for one am glad they released it. All the crap people are whining about are small potatoes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dopebeats Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I argue that WoW was as great as it was because it released when EQ1 was in it's death throes, EQ2 was facing some serious issues (largely a very, very angry EQ1 playerbase) and had no other real competition. The fact it lacked the 'difficulty' of EQ1 (such as death penalties) helped and word of mouth then spread WoW was the Wii of the MMO world. It made MMOs more accessible and more acceptable to the larger population. THIS is why it did so well. Not it's like any other corporation that's 'too big to fail'... people are so invested in it they don't want to leave and others think 'more subs = better' instead of 'which do I personally enjoy most?' EQ was not difficult. It was the essential timesinks that WoW removed. PVP was near non existent in EQ. Healing was a complete joke that you could macroquest a heal bot to complete heal you when you hit a button. The only thing I really enjoyed from EQ was class specific roles. WoW homogonized roles to the simple fact that there were no more classes who simple job was to CC. It now became the job of everyone in the group. No more classes who specific design was to Pull there was no such thing as pulling because things became leashed and linked. Im sorry I played EQ for years and EQ did somethings right, but to simply mistate facts is ridiculous. WOW did capitalize off the dying down of EQ. But also it was quite simply a better game. Alot of the difficulty of EQ was simply time investment. Doing an epic class quest in EQ wasn't hard, it was just time consuming waiting for spawns for most classes. Going on a corpse run in EQ wasn't hard it was simply finding a necro to summon your corpses. The reason why I say consulting individuals like Tigole was important to the success of WOW was because the reason EQ started dying down and losing subscribers is because they had obviously broken content and timesinks simply for the fact that it allowed them to produce let content and give people something to grind. It got so bad that people like Tigole even posted a countdown til they unsubbed on their respective websites. They learned from EQs mistakes. Making weekly spawned World bosses the key to getting into other high level non instanced content was a bad idea. If you wanted to keep all the other world spawn bosses to yourself you would make sure you got it so that others couldn't get it. It created a basis for griefing and training other groups trying to do said content. So wow instanced most content like that and so that a wider audience could achieve set content. Wow was innovative in what it did. That is why it was a success. It took many things from other games that were legitimately good ideas and implemented them and left the fail stuff behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantragk Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 They tried that, repeatedly. Did you SEE these forums before the release announcement? It was like a pack of rabid, frothing, hungry and mildly insane internet dogs I personally think they did an excellent job getting the important things in before they had to release it. Plus you have to realize investors were unhappy with how long it was taking PLUS the fact the holiday season was close. They had no choice, and I for one am glad they released it. All the crap people are whining about are small potatoes Yeah, ability delay is really small potatoes. Honestly, for the amount of time spent on production, they should have just built their own engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazikeen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think what he's saying is, you're doing the same types of things you do on other quests - go here, talk to him, kill them, etc. Except it progresses a story about your character specifically along. As a side note, 1.9 was not the last patch before the expansion... you're forgetting the incredible original Naxxramas in 1.11 and I think there was even a 1.12. On the 1.9 thing, my bad On the epic quest thing, that's pretty much all you did in EQ as well. Go here, do that, talk to this guy, raid this place for X item to craft/combine, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barathos Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 EQ was not difficult. I quit reading right there, also the wall of text crits for over 9,000... Why did I stop reading there? Play an enchanter solo, go on, do it, tell me it's easy. Please. Right now. Doooo eeeeeet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stem Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Don’t kid yourself in thinking WoW is void of ‘collect x’, ‘deliver y’, and ‘kill z’…….. that’s still 99% of most quests. Don’t critique fluff too harsh in a game that’s a month past release. While I’ll admit TOR has improvements to be made, remember that WoW had to learn to crawl before it started walking and then running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scar Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Hundreds of millions of dollars and how many years of development later, TOR? Right. I think people are perfectly justified in comparing the two as they are, today. If you're a customer and you're choosing which product to buy, you're buying and playing TODAY's PRODUCT. Not WoW's 7 years ago, not WoW's 4 years ago... not what TOR's might become at some random point in the future. You can only consume either product as they're being presented to you right now. Why in the world wouldn't you compare them. People are ridiculous. And WoW of 2004 was competing with EQ of 2004. Not the EQ of 1999. EQ has TONS more content. It had a fully flushed out endgame and end game advancement systems (AA). It had a much more robust AH (Bazaarre). It's feature list of 2004 dwarfed the feature list of WoW 2004. The servers of 2004 EQ were infinitely more stable that the release server stability of WoW. The bug list of WoW 2004 was vastly longer than that of EQ 2004. Yet, consumers bought and played WoW. By your theory, and your assertion, that shouldn't have happened. People have the innate ability to accept these games as works in progress. Or a certain percentage of them do. And they understand that you can't get 12 years of development and features into 6 years of concurrent development no matter how hard you try or how much money you throw at it. Edited January 25, 2012 by Scar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRainstater Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'm so sick of WoW fan boys reviewing MMO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barathos Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 And WoW of 2004 was competing with EQ of 2004. Not the EQ of 1999. EQ has TONS more content. It had a fully flushed out endgame and end game advancement systems (AA). It had a much more robust AH (Bazaarre). It's feature list of 2004 dwarfed the feature list of WoW 2004. The servers of 2004 EQ were infinitely more stable that the release server stability of WoW. The bug list of WoW 2004 was vastly longer than that of EQ 2004. Yet, consumers bought and played WoW. By your theory, and your assertion, that shouldn't have happened. People have the innate ability to accept these games as works in progress. Or a certain percentage of them do. And they understand that you can't get 12 years of development and features into 6 years of concurrent development no matter how hard you try or how much money you throw at it. Caution: Using this logic may cause implosion. Don’t kid yourself in thinking WoW is void of ‘collect x’, ‘deliver y’, and ‘kill z’…….. that’s still 99% of most quests. Don’t critique fluff too harsh in a game that’s a month past release. While I’ll admit TOR has improvements to be made, remember that WoW had to learn to crawl before it started walking and then running. I think he means "nothing new in terms of quest", at least that's what I got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calimwulf Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 How about you not release the game prematurely? BW should have enough balls to come out and say: "The game is not ready." They were just trying to get the jump on the new WoW expansion, Diablo 3, and GW2. Nothing more, nothing less. The game was ready for release. Did it have bugs? Yes. Does it still have bugs? Yes. The thing is though that a game of this size would absolutely never have been bug free. None of the bugs were serious enough to hold the release up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahlin Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If somebody wants to buy WoW plus all of it's expansions, go right ahead. Beware though, you're going to need to buy Pandaland soon for another $40. I'd rather start off with something new that will last longer. SWTOR has the most potential and upside. Can get whole WoW package minus pandaria for like $10, have a good day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dopebeats Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 On the 1.9 thing, my bad On the epic quest thing, that's pretty much all you did in EQ as well. Go here, do that, talk to this guy, raid this place for X item to craft/combine, etc There were very little quest in EQ and very hard to find them. Thats another innovation from EQ to WOW. EQs quest involved hailing random people or looking it up in a guide of some sort to figure out what all you needed to do. Most involved camping a random worldspawn with your character or keeping a timer on a daily/weekly spawn. Then praying what you needed dropped. There was no quest log, because there really weren't quest. You leveled in EQ strictly in groups. There really wasn't a progression through dungeons, people had specific camps and in order to 'grind' it out you had to talk to the group and get on a waitlist as a replacement or start your own and find an uncamped spot. It was good in a sense that it promoted community it was bad in a sense that it took forever to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barathos Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Can get whole WoW package minus pandaria for like $10, have a good day! Wait... when did they combine Cata / BC / WotLK and the original, into one $10 package? I missed that memo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantragk Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The game was ready for release. Did it have bugs? Yes. Does it still have bugs? Yes. The thing is though that a game of this size would absolutely never have been bug free. None of the bugs were serious enough to hold the release up. It's not even about bugs. Bugs are expected. But certain things they sit on their own face about. There is plenty of features that should have been in game at release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calimwulf Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It's not even about bugs. Bugs are expected. But certain things they sit on their own face about. There is plenty of features that should have been in game at release. Nope, a feature is an extra. Features in MMOs get added over time. They should also be added in response to what the paying players actually want and not what someone thinks they will want. I always play the game I'm playing, not the last one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dopebeats Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 And WoW of 2004 was competing with EQ of 2004. Not the EQ of 1999. EQ has TONS more content. It had a fully flushed out endgame and end game advancement systems (AA). It had a much more robust AH (Bazaarre). It's feature list of 2004 dwarfed the feature list of WoW 2004. The servers of 2004 EQ were infinitely more stable that the release server stability of WoW. The bug list of WoW 2004 was vastly longer than that of EQ 2004. Yet, consumers bought and played WoW. By your theory, and your assertion, that shouldn't have happened. People have the innate ability to accept these games as works in progress. Or a certain percentage of them do. And they understand that you can't get 12 years of development and features into 6 years of concurrent development no matter how hard you try or how much money you throw at it. Because WOW was a better game. WOW HAD MUCH BETTER GAMEPLAY. Its really that simple. Wow had a superior combat system. Less ridiculous timesinks. A way to level solo aswell as in groups. It also had infinitely better PVP. Interesting design for classes(rage/energy/combopoints) compared to the old auto attack and whatever special attack that class had. People were playing rangers at high level raids with a video game controller that had turbo on it for christ sake. In fact my friend frequently played his cleric in groups with a Infrared Reciever on his computer, tv-out to his tv and used a universal remote in his recliner. Wow took over because it was quite simply a better game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inseeisyou Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) SW:TOR is becoming more successful by the day... each patch things get better and better. Meanwhile BlizzCon is canceled as World of Warcraft hemorrhages over 2 million subs in 2011, 800,000 in the third quarter alone. The OP and the trolls are starting to get nervous... Slowly they begin to slink into the shadows. "Who will play with my panda?" They nervously mumble... It's a... a... panda... *sniffle*. A few years from now we will have to dredge this thread up and have a good laugh. Edited January 25, 2012 by inseeisyou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is no argument. You wont compare your new car with the Ford Model T thats been out for 100 years. Why? Because your new car HAS to be BETTER. Because its not 1908 anymore and when a new car comes out, he has to be better than car than came out 100 years ago... So SWTOR has to be better FROM the start.. No but you will compare every girlfriend to your first love. You will compare every care to the first car you fell in love with. People have their own standards on what they consider great. For MMOs it's usually the first MMO they fell in love with which for most people is WoW. But you will also notice on these boards for some that is SWG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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