Force Wave/Overload Change in 1.4 - An appeal to reconsider

[Bedrayne]

shoud be changed for sages/sorcs to be a 120° cone with the target enemy as the centre of that cone without any need of facing to that paticular direction. so running away from someone will knock him even further away, when he´s on the side of the sage it will be a cone in a right-angle to the walking direction etc. if no/frindly target is choosen it will be a normal frontal cone. that way it would keep its defensive value without changing the intention of BW.

 

We have a winner. I'd rather havce a 360, but this is probably all that we can reasonably hope for from BW. BW mods please notice the only Consulars/Inquis that are even remotelyok with the change are the melee (***/shadow). Almost without exception casters are upset because it is primarily a defensivde, not offensive cd for them.

[Sock_Bramson]

If they still have their leap to use, just wait until they're within the old Overload range. Against the specs that don't have leaps, don't wait. Result: happiness.

[L-RANDLE]

If they still have their leap to use, just wait until they're within the old Overload range. Against the specs that don't have leaps, don't wait. Result: happiness.

 

They didn't say they were increasing the magnitude of the knockback. Its not going to KB people 15m....

[TheronFett]

Having a Concealment Operative, I'm looking forward to eating Sages for breakfast against after 1.4.

 

[Sock_Bramson]

Sooo, it'll be just as effective as the old one if you use it at the right time. If you've already got them slowed and you're strafing to pelt them with dots and shocks from <10m away, you're already in a good position to do a quick-turn + KB when they start catching up again.

[L-RANDLE]

Sooo, it'll be just as effective as the old one if you use it at the right time. If you've already got them slowed and you're strafing to pelt them with dots and shocks from <10m away, you're already in a good position to do a quick-turn + KB when they start catching up again.

 

And that would be good if it didn't have a CD, so I could effect multiple enemies(outside the initial radius), but it does. When you add more than one person to the equation, all that positioning don't matter. More than likely, it will be less effective, because of the radius decrease.

 

So then lets say "just as effective"+"less effective" = bad idea. Add in that we didn't ask or need a change for this : Me=glad I rerolled after the non-changes of 1.3

 

 

I'll swipe the WH DPS Enhancements out of my sage and gift them to my Guardian..

Edited September 7, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Larry_Dallas]

If they still have their leap to use, just wait until they're within the old Overload range. Against the specs that don't have leaps, don't wait. Result: happiness.

 

You still don't get it. You have no concept of how kiting madness sorcs play. If a melee at 11-15 meters is saving their leap until they close ground to X meters, they will die before they get to use it. Without using leap (or predation or camo), melee gain zero meters per second on a madness sorc. And actually, they lose 5 every 9-15 seconds (depending on whether creeping terror is used on cooldown for the root or refresh for the dot). When kiting, madness strafecasts instants -and only instants-, unless the enemy is really, really far away (like 25 meters, which overload isn't helping with).

 

But you have to strafe to manage this. Meaning a sorc who has a chaser to the west will always be facing north and running east. Which means every 12-15 seconds, we now need to pull off a 90` turn kb in a .5 second window and a -90` (not 1` more or we can't attack) turn strafe in a .5 second window back to back. This might even be doable if leaps didn't root, due to jump turning, but leaps do root.

 

the second or two the KB provides you will not solve your problem. (especially since even pure melees get a ranged attack or two)

 

Yeah, it's called leap and it's the one thing kiters need to worry about at range.

 

The knockback provides healers a second or two. What it gives DPS is 8 meters of distance. With 2 more meters of distance (which can be bought against multiples by either EB or forcespeed activated on top of overload), the enemy zergers are doing no damage to the target until the first leap comes off cooldown. 12-15 seconds is an awful long time for a group of melee DPS to not be attacking anybody in a wz (edit: meaning they either abandon pursuit and switch targets at this point or follow for 15 seconds and lose whatever the objective is).

Edited September 7, 2012 by Larry_Dallas

[L-RANDLE]

You still don't get it. You have no concept of how kiting madness sorcs play. When kiting, madness strafecasts instants -and only instants-, unless the enemy is really, really far away (like 25 meters, which overload isn't helping with).

Hybrid DPS as well. I'm casting instas- and proc'd-instas. The only reason to be in the other tree is for force management and a few survivability options. I mean think about the pure TK/Lite tree. You can spec to be uninterruptable, but you are still immobile. How do you look this change now?

 

So basically all DPS specs have an issue with this. All healer specs are indifferent (some like; some don't). Its a bad move. The bad part is we warned them about 1.2 and they kept chugging along. Will the actually heed our advice this time?

[Sock_Bramson]

It's obvious that I'm not going to convince you that a slight turn while strafing isn't that big of a deal. (it really isn't) I understand the concept of kiting someone in the sweetspot, and have no problems doing it myself without creeping terror. (which seems like a much more important kiting tool than Overload) There is no reason that you can't keep kiting away with the new KB, even if you're terrible at doing a simple jump turn.

 

I'm not sure where all these terrible lag spikes are that you think will ruin the new KB; you might want to look into improving your setup. The instant abilities I've used on my various characters are just that: instant gratification. If you use the new, instant KB while properly positioned, then you're all set.

 

If you want to quit playing because of a slight change in playstyle, go right ahead. I'm going to enjoy making use of the new KB + free 20sec force speed + instant heal, to say nothing of the goodies healers and lit. specs get.

[DroidDreamer]

I want to test the proposed change. It could be pretty awesome offensively. Then again last night I noticed just how often my 360-degree overload went off in unexpected ways. Used defensively, up close, it could be pretty tough to get right. Offensively, it would be pretty amazing. But defensively, there are so many times that I use overload just to do a small KB and root on ALL targets around me.

[Russkiier]

I have a 50 sorc and 50 mara, and one of the most annoying things is being mid ravage when a sorc pops his knockback and inadvertantly interrupts me, his (or her) TEAM mate. Being able to aim overload is going to reduce this problem. Another, less common issue, is when i use my AoE cc (dont remembe rwhat its called) and a sorc panics/doesn't realize what ive done, and breaks allll my cc. another problem is when a sorceror uses his knockback, which has neither the range, nor the distance knocked back, to be a good goalline defense tool (unless specced with bindings), and fills the targets resolve, negating my more effective force chock stun. (not saying force choke is perfect in this situation, but its better than resolve filling overload imo)

 

Just some example from a not strictly sorceror perspective.

[Kanthar]

I have a 50 sorc and 50 mara, and one of the most annoying things is being mid ravage when a sorc pops his knockback and inadvertantly interrupts me, his (or her) TEAM mate. Being able to aim overload is going to reduce this problem. Another, less common issue, is when i use my AoE cc (dont remembe rwhat its called) and a sorc panics/doesn't realize what ive done, and breaks allll my cc. another problem is when a sorceror uses his knockback, which has neither the range, nor the distance knocked back, to be a good goalline defense tool (unless specced with bindings), and fills the targets resolve, negating my more effective force chock stun. (not saying force choke is perfect in this situation, but its better than resolve filling overload imo)

 

Just some example from a not strictly sorceror perspective.

 

Quit your crying Sorcs and Sages. Your knockback is messing with marauder/sentinel gameplay and we can't have that.

 

Did I sum that up correctly for you? And no one cares that you have a 50 Sorc you haven't played since joining the Marauder bandwagon.

[L-RANDLE]

 

Just some example from a not strictly sorceror perspective.

 

HAHA... that's a good one. Let me guess you think Maras are in a good spot?

 

I got a Guardian tank in BM gear. I can do bad things to this class now, wait until I LoS them more (since I played my DPS Sage from 12/17 to July 30th, I got pretty good at it) and stack on their backside to avoid the KB. Screw pillar-humping, just call me Nasty Nate or Squirrel Master. "Hey Mr. Sage/Sorc, you ever run through a corn field backwards?"

 

The change is a joke, a really bad one, just to make melee life easier (which is code for go play a different class because we don't want to admit it was poorly designed and misguided skill tree allocation).

[Larry_Dallas]

It's obvious that I'm not going to convince you that a slight turn while strafing isn't that big of a deal. (it really isn't) I understand the concept of kiting someone in the sweetspot, and have no problems doing it myself without creeping terror. (which seems like a much more important kiting tool than Overload) There is no reason that you can't keep kiting away with the new KB, even if you're terrible at doing a simple jump turn.

 

I'm not sure where all these terrible lag spikes are that you think will ruin the new KB; you might want to look into improving your setup. The instant abilities I've used on my various characters are just that: instant gratification. If you use the new, instant KB while properly positioned, then you're all set.

 

If you want to quit playing because of a slight change in playstyle, go right ahead. I'm going to enjoy making use of the new KB + free 20sec force speed + instant heal, to say nothing of the goodies healers and lit. specs get.

 

First of all, I said nothing about unsubbing. Heck, this change doesn't affect me since I use an op, mara and vanguard in warzones now. But that doesn't change the fact that kiting sorcs, which are, by far, the most difficult class to pvp with get whacked and whacked hard by this change.

 

Second of all, the reason you won't convince anyone is that you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. You just told me creeping terror is a more effective single-cast range-creator kiting tool than overload. You've told me there's some benefit to moving ranged attackers backwards. You've told me melee can attack from outside 10m with something other than leap. You've told me melee outside 11m can close ground without leap. You've tried to tell me there's some benefit to knocking back melee before leap. You've told me a conal attack is better because of gimmick kills in huttball. Basically, you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to kiting, dps sorcs.

 

 

Hybrid DPS as well. I'm casting instas- and proc'd-instas. The only reason to be in the other tree is for force management and a few survivability options. I mean think about the pure TK/Lite tree. You can spec to be uninterruptable, but you are still immobile. How do you look this change now?

 

So basically all DPS specs have an issue with this. All healer specs are indifferent (some like; some don't). Its a bad move. The bad part is we warned them about 1.2 and they kept chugging along. Will the actually heed our advice this time?

 

If you're hybrid, imo, you're still good. Backlash going from mez to stun will make up for overload losing its usefulness as a kiting tool. Overload alone gets the enemy to 8, Backlash alone will get you to 12 before they break. But there's a trick to it. If you right-click your bubble buff icon, you can trigger BL instantly (off the global cooldown). Nobody used to do that before because it would just break from affliction, which it now won't.

 

It's madness that gets whacked. Corruption/madness probably treads water.

[Bedrayne]

There's this thing called "positioning", where you can actually move around the playfield so all your nearby enemies are grouped to one direction.

 

But ofcourse, it also requires this thing called, "skill" and "reflexes"... so I can understand why terribads would have trouble with this change.

 

Kweassa if you can move around so all your enemies are grouped in one direction please oh please mighty Kweassa tell me which server you are on so I can transfer. My enemies are not "terribad" so I can't line them up like bowling pins. In general my sorc is running for his life pillar humping with melee coming around both sides.

[L-RANDLE]

 

 

If you're hybrid, imo, you're still good. Backlash going from mez to stun will make up for overload losing its usefulness as a kiting tool. Overload alone gets the enemy to 8, Backlash alone will get you to 12 before they break. But there's a trick to it. If you right-click your bubble buff icon, you can trigger BL instantly (off the global cooldown). Nobody used to do that before because it would just break from affliction, which it now won't.

 

It's madness that gets whacked. Corruption/madness probably treads water.

 

If you actually spec the mez. I turned that sheet off because it has the potential of filling resolve pretty easily on those "unstoppable wrecking balls" (as the "Pekster" put it), heaven forbid you are being gangbg, by two or three of them. Had to turn it off....

Edited September 7, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Larry_Dallas]

If you actually spec the mez. I turned that sheet off because it has the potential of filling resolve pretty easily on those "unstoppable wrecking balls" (as the "Pekster" put it), heaven forbid you are being gangbg, by two or three of them. Had to turn it off....

 

When it was a mez that broke on damage, I agreed completely. If it's a 4 second stun now, were I hybrid, I'd definitely spec it (and click the bubble off when I wanted it to break, which lets me keep control).

[MidichIorian]

Ok, let's look at this from a new angle, so far we've only argued about the negative contra positive outcome.

 

Can we atleast agree on that sorc/sage currently isnt a top class unless it's played by an exceptional player, often in a premade stacked with other good players, that it requires a high level of awareness, due to the fact that it is squishy and doesnt have the burst to make up for some of the other classes' crits, and that 1.4, with it's changes to the stun range and the 120 degree FW, will require even more from the player? I mean, you can twist and turn things however you like, it doesnt change the fact that FW will require that you actually aim and our stun will require that we are closer to the enemy, things that arent exactly making it easier to be successful with the class. It doesnt even matter if it just makes the class 1 % more complicated to play, it's that it didnt become easier that is the problem.

Were snipers in a bad place? Most people will say no but I dont see BW tweaking that AC to make it more complicated to play. I honestly don't see how a sorc/sage will be able to stand toe to toe with a sniper in 1.4 outside 10 m and with no stun. Whirlwind? You can't damage the enemy during its' duration so then we're back to the scenario where the sorc/sage should just CC and run . And they will have to CC more for escapes which is going to make the already existing stun wars worse.

 

I'm not even that pissed about the tweaks anymore, it's what everyone asked for and they didnt change that pisses me off. They put up feedback threads, we all, with no exceptions, complained about the same things but they change something that no one ever mentioned while ignoring the rest.

Edited September 7, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Sock_Bramson]

Larry:

 

In your hypothetical "sorc kiting a mara" scenario, yes, creeping terror is better. (no resolve, lower CD, more dmg)

As far as leap being the only ranged attack for melee... ever heard of saber throw? How about force scream? I never said anything about these being used from past 10m, btw. I just said that if you're already getting gang-banged, overload will not save you. (KB, melee takes a step or two, saber throw [possibly with a root], close distance [maybe faster with passive movement speed increase], smack smack) Plus, there are other classes besides maras and juggs.

 

Where did I say anything about melee instantly closing with something other than a leap?

 

While I did posit the 15m KB as being more useful in huttball, that was only one extra use. How about knocking people off of a node from range? Or knocking them off of your teammates? Or giving yourself even more room to kite by using your KB earlier?

 

Knocking back ranged attackers is far from useless. For one, an extra, 15m interrupt is always nice. Plus, you ignored the part where I spelled this out for you: KB ranged class past an obstacle, strafe out of LoS, profit.

 

The reason that I won't convince you about the usefulness of the new KB is because you have already given up on your sorc. (you did say you don't play it anymore, after all) You had only one set of tactics that apparently didn't work well enough for you to stick with the class. Now that there's a slight change in playstyle, you can't conceptualize how to make use of it. You hear that you can no longer indiscriminately use Overload as a panic button and freak out about it, even though it takes very little effort to slightly adjust your positioning.

 

So, continue complaining about an altogether positive set of changes to a class you no longer play. I'm going to keep playing my sorc and eagerly await the next update.

[Russkiier]

Quit your crying Sorcs and Sages. Your knockback is messing with marauder/sentinel gameplay and we can't have that.

 

Did I sum that up correctly for you? And no one cares that you have a 50 Sorc you haven't played since joining the Marauder bandwagon.

 

All i was doing was saying things from a not strictly sorc perspective.

I could probably make a similar case for any other class to the tune of "sorc used knock back which took my target out of range".

 

sorry my position offends you :/

[MidichIorian]

All i was doing was saying things from a not strictly sorc perspective.

I could probably make a similar case for any other class to the tune of "sorc used knock back which took my target out of range".

 

sorry my position offends you :/

You forgot to mention the part where your "target" most likely were beating on the sorc while you were trying to attack it. Or wait, is your game taking place in some parallel universe where an enemy sees a mara standing next to a sorc and decides to attack the mara first?

[Russkiier]

You forgot to mention the part where your "target" most likely were beating on the sorc while you were trying to attack it. Or wait, is your game taking place in some parallel universe where an enemy sees a mara standing next to a sorc and decides to attack the mara first?

 

Maybe because im exhausted, but I don't see your point. Im pretty sure im living in your universe though, unless you subscribe to the different perspectives=different realities theory

[warultima]

Does this thread has something to do about someone claiming that Commandos/Mercs are abusing their automatically AI controlled auto reacting to force charge in combat log and auto Knock Back whenever he force charges them? I mean it sounds like "unintentional KB" from mercs/mandos to me why only sorc gets this change.

 

If this change was so great holy and powerful wouldnt Merc and Mandos crying really loud rightnow coz only sorc/sages are getting it? I mean none of those damn merc/mandos are saying anything like they wanted this "KB Buff" that sorcs/sages are getting, they are all adults and mature I guess? or maybe Merc/Mando DPS are already so overpowered already they dont care about another "KB Buff"?..... oh wait.....

Edited September 8, 2012 by warultima

[Larry_Dallas]

Larry:

 

In your hypothetical "sorc kiting a mara" scenario, yes, creeping terror is better. (no resolve, lower CD, more dmg)

As far as leap being the only ranged attack for melee... ever heard of saber throw? How about force scream? I never said anything about these being used from past 10m, btw. I just said that if you're already getting gang-banged, overload will not save you. (KB, melee takes a step or two, saber throw [possibly with a root], close distance [maybe faster with passive movement speed increase], smack smack) Plus, there are other classes besides maras and juggs.

 

You would think that creeping terror's better, given that you don't know how to kite and have never played a class that does that. Creeping terror buys 3-5 meters by itself before it ends (depending on if you're rooted when you use it). Overload buys 8 as soon as it connects. What this means is overload prevents a 4m skill (which, with melees, are the dangerous skills) from being used. Creeping terror does not. If an enemy leaps and one were to fire off a creeping terror, the enemy can use crippling slash and negate the range gain. With overload as it currently is, if used properly, this cannot happen.

 

Staggering range creators will not ever result in full resolve until the target's long dead.

 

In addition, recasting creeping terror, which is likely already on the target, as a range creator does not do additional damage. Because of the timing of the ticks, you lose two ticks of the skill if you cast it before it's fallen off.

 

Force scream is a 10m skill. saber throw is a 10m skill. They're not spammable. They're not ranged attacks. They're mid-range attacks. Warriors have 1 ranged attack--leap. These other skills are on longish cooldowns compared to how hard they hit (which his next to nothing), unless and only unless the enemy is a carnage marauder (which is already pretty unbeatable unless you get lucky with what's on cooldown) or (laugh) vengeance juggs. And they do not hit at the range we want to be, which is, for the hundredth time, 11m.

 

And I don't know how many times I have to tell you this, because you just don't get it: to stay alive, the enemy must never, ever, ever, get a 4meter attack in, because if it's crippling slash, game over. If the new overload allows for even one such attack at 4m, it gets us killed against any augged war hero enemy.

 

 

Where did I say anything about melee instantly closing with something other than a leap?

 

Me: Overload is a tool used by kiting sorcs to prevent melee from being at 4m. If a melee is at 15 feet there is no reason to knock him to 22. No advantage is conferred by doing this. Leap works just as well at 22 as it does at 15. And annihilate or smash miss just as much at 15 meters as they do at 22. The ranges we are concerned with are 4 and 10. If any melee is outside 10, whether they're at 11m or 30, there is no reason to spend a range creator, since we will grossly outdamage them from that spread...by the exact same rate.

 

You: Like I've said, if you don't see the benefit of using a longer range KB to kite melee, there's no helping you.

 

 

While I did posit the 15m KB as being more useful in huttball, that was only one extra use. How about knocking people off of a node from range? Or knocking them off of your teammates? Or giving yourself even more room to kite by using your KB earlier?

 

1, Lightning storm stops caps from twice the distance and, unlike overload, has no cooldown and sacrifices no range-creator. I do not understand why I would put myself closer to harm's way to do a one-off worse job with a skill less suited to stopping caps than one I already have. Hell, ANY 30m skill will do a better job of stopping caps than a 15m 1/20 seconds overload.

 

2. That can also spread the enemy out, making aoe taunts miss some, which is actually more deadly for the zerged teammate than doing nothing. That can also make allied smashes, chainlightnings, deathfields, DFAs, and orbital strikes miss. Enemy clump is a good thing for a whole host of classes. Finally, I already have a skill that can get the surrounded teammate 30m away from the pile without stepping into harm's way to get the enemies 8m from the pile, which you, inexplicably, think is a good idea. It's called extricate. You have it too. I'd suggest using it instead of facetanking a pile.

 

 

Knocking back ranged attackers is far from useless. For one, an extra, 15m interrupt is always nice. Plus, you ignored the part where I spelled this out for you: KB ranged class past an obstacle, strafe out of LoS, profit.

 

Sacrificing the most-important survival skill we have to stop one cast, which will just be re-cast when the enemy lands in .5 seconds is a terrible tradeoff.

 

You: How can you say that there won't be uses for KBing a ranged class? You can knock those bastards behind a pillar.

 

I did not ignore your theory that ranged classes could be knocked through pillars. I mocked it. The game doesn't work like that. The enemy will collide with scenery and remain directly in line of sight. Or they'll get knocked back next to the pillar, where they can, necessarily, still see you when they land.

 

 

The reason that I won't convince you about the usefulness of the new KB is because you have already given up on your sorc. (you did say you don't play it anymore, after all) You had only one set of tactics that apparently didn't work well enough for you to stick with the class. Now that there's a slight change in playstyle, you can't conceptualize how to make use of it. You hear that you can no longer indiscriminately use Overload as a panic button and freak out about it, even though it takes very little effort to slightly adjust your positioning.

 

So, continue complaining about an altogether positive set of changes to a class you no longer play. I'm going to keep playing my sorc and eagerly await the next update.

 

The reason I do not play a madness sorc in pvp is because what it does well doesn't translate well to ranked. This isn't a playstyle issue; it's a damage curve issue. There's no playstyle adjustment that will allow me to hit for 12k in 3GCDs. Over 25 seconds it hits as hard as anything or harder. If there are exactly three targets that all live for about 40 seconds total, it hits harder than anything. Over 4 to 6, single target, which is how long targets live in ranked, it hits a fraction as hard as 2 marauder specs, any PT spec, both in-use guardian specs, concealment operatives, all sniper specs and all four assassin specs. I've got my war hero; there's nowhere to go from there. I'm not complaining about all that, it's just fact. If there are ever 4 man ranked qs or dueling arenas, I would probably dust it off.

 

Conversely, you argue that overload changing is a buff because you do not understand how DPS sorcs play, or really, how you should be playing either, consider now, that you've suggested:

 

-knocking ranged back through pillars (which is impossible),

-knocking melee back at 11 meters (which is pointless),

-knocking enemies off a teammate (which is counterproductive),

-getting hit with a 4m attack because a particular range-creator has a short cooldown (it's a terrible idea) and

-putting yourself closer to harm's way using it as a one-off to stop caps (which is dangerous and less-effective than what you should already be doing).

 

You think this is a buff because you don't know enough about the class, the spec, or other classes to think of ways in which this change will affect anyone.

 

I'm not a sorc QQer. If you want to find a post by me claiming that the class is grossly underpowered that's not related to this one change, be my guest, but you'll be looking forever.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Larry_Dallas

[leto_cleon]

I am going out on a limb here and saying changing FW/OL was never even a concern for the Sage/Sorc community, but they change it. It's the main contributor to why people are pissed...

 

^This. And don't forget the Shadows/Assassins too. It wasn't OP, the rest of the proposed changes don't make it OP, and the rest of the changes didn't need a change to FW/OL to balance things.