Force Wave/Overload Change in 1.4 - An appeal to reconsider

[Darth_Philar]

Does this lag that will stop people pointing in the right direction never mean they miss the split second to start casting an ability to knockback someone they see leaping?

 

Or has it been announced that the new force wave/overload come with its own whole-wz lag to unfailingly cancel out the now-instant cast?

 

I realise of course that lag (and more often, the fact it wasn't instant) never made anyone bounce an enemy into the wrong place (over the scoreline instead of into the pit, for instance) with the current overload/force wave. Ever.

 

Lag argument is bogus.

 

Right, because your SW/JK always lands directly on his target when he uses his jump... oh wait, that's a complete and total lie since it actually fails to work correctly on a pretty regular basis as a result of THAT TARGET NOT ACTUALLY BEING THERE. With JK/SW you at least get the benefit of the root being applied to your target. The new Overload will have no effect since it isn't applied to the target but to the area the game decides you are facing (not where you appear to be facing, or against who appears to be in the area you appear to be facing).

 

The lag argument is not bogus, but nearly everything you have posted so far is. Please stop trying to give your Mara/Sent even more of an advantage than you already have against us poor lowly Sorc/Sages.

[Wainamoinen]

Please stop trying to give your Mara/Sent even more of an advantage than you already have against us poor lowly Sorc/Sages.

 

Sorry, your lag argument is still bogus. The new version of the ability is going to be no worse affected by it than the old.

 

As is the accusation that I'd sink to having a mara or a sent. Ad hominem attacks simply show that you know you lost the argument.

[Phinub]

Does this lag that will stop people pointing in the right direction never mean they miss the split second to start casting an ability to knockback someone they see leaping?

 

Or has it been announced that the new force wave/overload come with its own whole-wz lag to unfailingly cancel out the now-instant cast?

 

I realise of course that lag (and more often, the fact it wasn't instant) never made anyone bounce an enemy into the wrong place (over the scoreline instead of into the pit, for instance) with the current overload/force wave. Ever.

 

Lag argument is bogus.

 

Every class has issues with people flying off to an awkward angle every once in a while after a knockback, that is not really the issue. The issue is that someone actually isn't on the position that he appears at on your screen, so your knockback might miss entirely. Currently your intended target will fly off you, possibly in an awkward direction, but he is off you. 1.4's version can potentially miss entirely because your enemy wasn't actually where he appeared on your screen.

 

Maybe I'm underestimating how good the selfheal and 10s off sprint will be (having tried 31 lightning, 20s sprint IS really good). But to me, making the squishiest class in the game more prone to defensive errors by turning overload into a cone... is questionable. Nor have i seen any complaints about overload specifically in the pvp forum (which is apparently their reason to change it) or demands for a cone in the sorcerer feedback thread. The only thing I've seen were demands in making it truly instant, so the need for this change just seems a bit odd.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Phinub

[Darth_Philar]

Sorry, your lag argument is still bogus. The new version of the ability is going to be no worse affected by it than the old.

 

As is the accusation that I'd sink to having a mara or a sent. Ad hominem attacks simply show that you know you lost the argument.

 

Not an ad hominem. It is the only logical explanation. Your attempt to classify it as such is a straw man, however.

 

There is absolutely no justification for the cone effect and as it will only benefit melee classes (who are in no need of assistance) then the only reason one would even consider defending such a ridiculous change is if they personally benefit from it.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[unixbomber]

I'm looking forward to trying it out, personally.

[leto_cleon]

Lag argument is bogus.

 

During a lag spike or worse a desync between the various client and a server, player positioning and facing all go haywire. I''ve had the experience of getting the ball at the node in huttball on my screen, but a few seconds later I'm not having the ball and close to the acid pit on the side closer to the goal line.

 

Even in PVE leapfrogging of NPCs happen all the time. The probe driod in the Jedi Temple as well as near the mines more often than not leapfrog to strange locations.

 

What the problem with that? The ability ends up firing off either prematurely or too late. Add a cone to that and you can get people on your screen actually behind you but in front of you when you hit the ability. Ability goes off and boom waste cast and ability on cooldown.

[Nocadoj]

Don't like leaps? You can now push a leaper from even farther away. If he sneaks up on you, he deserves to get a couple of smacks in. Too lazy to find the quote, but someone was saying that the frontal cone will make it so you'll knock enemies into beneficial locations. (???) Bwuh? What if you, oh, I don't know, aim your knockback and send them exactly where you want them, like off a bridge/behind a pillar/ into fire or acid. And you can do all of this when they are still 15m away, 7 extra meters than we have now. If nobody can see the benefits of 15m + 8m (or 5 or however far it knocks them back), then I don't know what to tell you. I, for one, can't wait to push the crap out of some people.

 

You seem to be only considering 1v1. In group rateds, you get attacked from multiple sides. We now can only knockback 1 or 2 people vice everyone who hardswitches to us.

[Dencre]

This is an unneeded nerf. BioFail do not implement this you teribad company!

[Sock_Bramson]

I was replying to a specific concern. I, for one, am excited to try this out in rateds. My teammates do a good job of protecting our healers as it is, which means I'm not getting surprise attacked from all angles. Plus, with the new range on Overload, I can be more proactive with my knockbacks, which will actually make it easier for me to kite. (especially because I have electric bindings and 20sec force sprint as is; here's hoping for 10sec force sprint )

 

Like others (and myself) have already said, the instant activation will keep lag from being a huge issue. Lag rarely hurts me now, and that's with an animation delay and an 8m range. Instant KB with a 15m range? Yes please. I'll gladly give up smaller pbaoe if I get to put my ice cream in such a large cone.

[mrekxxx]

Honestly...if turning to knockback an opponent with an instant 120 degree 15m cone is too difficult for a player, I just don't know what to say.

 

 

 

Nah. I have a Shadow. He gets mobbed, surrounded, prison-s*xed all the time. Then I just hit ezmode Force Wave and scatter everything on my screen like bowling pins. It's cathartic, especially when I do it while drooling.

 

 

 

 

Pretty much. Skilled players that know how to adapt will embrace the Cone and do amazing things with it.

 

 

 

 

Ya, you're right. They should hire a closet gaming genius like yourself to balance the game's PvP. You can apply online, I heard BW is hiring.

 

 

 

 

What is this lag you keep speaking of? Sure I see it very rarely (say maybe once a week) in a Huttball match, but lag in this game has never been a constant problem for me and my connection runs at 60ms or so. The extent to which you complain about it tells me that you need to check your connection or your comp. You also may want to check your system and what is running in the background while you're playing the game.

 

yeah this... its too difficult for players ... lol

 

we wanna have the game based on skill like every1 said is gw2, now we need some skill to use sorcerer overload and ppl are crying...

 

this is rly buff guys, but .... for skilled players, but dont forget there is some% rly skilled players, who can kite players and it was hard, so we did get better abilities

 

on the other hand, when i play my juggy and some sorcerer without skill just jump on platform and kick all my team down thats OP...

 

enjoy 1.4 i roy cannot wait till it come!

 

)))

[Darth_Philar]

yeah this... its too difficult for players ... lol

 

we wanna have the game based on skill like every1 said is gw2, now we need some skill to use sorcerer overload and ppl are crying...

 

this is rly buff guys, but .... for skilled players, but dont forget there is some% rly skilled players, who can kite players and it was hard, so we did get better abilities

 

on the other hand, when i play my juggy and some sorcerer without skill just jump on platform and kick all my team down thats OP...

 

enjoy 1.4 i roy cannot wait till it come!

 

)))

 

Once again, Sorcerer/Sage is already the class that requires the MOST skill to play well. Requiring more skill in ANY FORM is insanely stupid.

[UGLYMRJ]

I was replying to a specific concern. I, for one, am excited to try this out in rateds. My teammates do a good job of protecting our healers as it is, which means I'm not getting surprise attacked from all angles. Plus, with the new range on Overload, I can be more proactive with my knockbacks, which will actually make it easier for me to kite. (especially because I have electric bindings and 20sec force sprint as is; here's hoping for 10sec force sprint )

 

Like others (and myself) have already said, the instant activation will keep lag from being a huge issue. Lag rarely hurts me now, and that's with an animation delay and an 8m range. Instant KB with a 15m range? Yes please. I'll gladly give up smaller pbaoe if I get to put my ice cream in such a large cone.

 

Whoa!!! Slow down with all that logic!!!

 

Can't we all just complain about the one tiny nerf and ignore all the buffs?

 

Really... anything that takes more skill is obviously a nerf.

 

I mean seriously... we should be very upset with something being changed that now requires more skill involved. Whether it's actually improved or not is irrelevant.

 

Do you have any idea how hard it is going to be to keyboard turn AND click the ability at the same time before the other players move out of my giant cone?

 

Clearly we should all be very upset about things that we read in a partial patch summary, when we have no clue how they will REALLY, actually effect game play.

 

Pretty sure I'm going to un-sub. But don't worry.... I'll keep coming back to the forums to complain.

Edited September 6, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[Sock_Bramson]

Hehe, I'm sure zero percent of that post was sarcasm, eh Ugly?

 

I don't even really think this change is going to make sorcs any harder to play. Sure, we'll have to get used to a redesigned ability. However, we can now use this ability from farther away, which helps its offensive and defensive uses. The "oh poop" factor of the pbaoe is nice and all, but if a sorc is letting anyone surprise attack them they're doing something wrong. Especially if you're a healer, you know that some melees are gonna try to get on your case. With this change alone, you'll be able to get them back in front of your dps even quicker. (as long as you're paying attention, of course)

[Chemic_al]

Whoa!!! Slow down with all that logic!!!

 

Can't we all just complain about the one tiny nerf and ignore all the buffs?

 

Really... anything that takes more skill is obviously a nerf.

.

 

1) It's not a tiny nerf

2) Just in case you missed it, electrocute got nerfed too. Another huge nerf.

3) If this a positive change why aren't mercs' knocback being changed in line with this? It's a nerf is why.

4) The talent for root immunity on force speed should be much lower down and accesible to all specs, if we're supposed to be kiting. Can't just give it to healers.

5) Hell I'd like to see Will of the Sith go to 3 points allowing for 9% in line with Mercs and Agents.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Chemic_al

[Sock_Bramson]

1) It's not a tiny nerf

2) Just in case you missed it, electrocute got nerfed too. Another huge nerf.

3) If this a positive change why aren't mercs' knocback being changed in line with this? It's a nerf is why.

4) The talent for root immunity on force speed should be much lower down.

 

1) Yes, it's a tiny nerf (cone instead of 360 degrees), combined with an even better buff (instant activation + 15m range)

2) Electrocute nerf really isn't that big of a deal (especially considering the buffs). You shouldn't be throwing out your stuns like candy. You can, however, still use them carefully and effectively at 10m.

3) Because mercs don't have force speed every 20secs, for one. There's other differences, but I'm too lazy to look them up.

4) Hell, maybe it will be; nobody knows yet. Even if it isn't, though, it's not a huge deal (especially since I'm a healer ). Since 1.2 hit, I started using a 20sec force speed, and that in and of itself is awesome.

[UGLYMRJ]

1) It's not a tiny nerf -

2) Just in case you missed it, electrocute got nerfed too. Another huge nerf.

3) If this a positive change why aren't mercs' knocback being changed in line with this? It's a nerf is why.

4) The talent for root immunity on force speed should be much lower down and accesible to all specs, if we're supposed to be kiting. Can't just give it to healers.

5) Hell I'd like to see Will of the Sith go to 3 points allowing for 9% in line with Mercs and Agents.

 

1. You're right... it's a buff for any skilled player

2. So did every 30m stun?

(Could be wrong but I know it's not the only one.)

 

3. LOL? Again... I will gladly take the changes to overload. Sucks if you're not good at facing targets I guess.... Don't roll Melee DPS.

4. So you're actually mad because you were hoping for god mode?

5. I'd like a pet unicorn that poops rainbow sherbert.

 

Over all... sorcs are going to be improved. Of course skilled players more than clickers and keyboard turners... but over all. Buffed.

 

I have no clue what people are upset about. I wish they created an option to download the 1.4 patch so I could take my buffs and you could see how well your 360 degree overload will work in comparison.

Edited September 6, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[Darth_Philar]

1. You're right... it's a buff for any skilled player

2. So did every 30m stun?

(Could be wrong but I know it's not the only one.)

 

3. LOL? Again... I will gladly take the changes to overload. Sucks if you're not good at facing targets I guess.... Don't roll Melee DPS.

4. So you're actually mad because you were hoping for god mode?

5. I'd like a pet unicorn that poops rainbow sherbert.

 

Over all... sorcs are going to be improved. Of course skilled players more than clickers and keyboard turners... but over all. Buffed.

 

I have no clue what people are upset about. I wish they created an option to download the 1.4 patch so I could take my buffs and you could see how well your 360 degree overload will work in comparison.

 

The net result of all changes is a buff, however the fact that some of the buffs included unnecessary changes and others included unnecessary nerfs means that we are moving from dead last to tied in dead last with Mercs. What is the point of a buff if the net result is that we are in the exact same position as we were before?

[Sock_Bramson]

Snipers will have the only 30m stun, and I'm fine with that. If you can't LoS snipers now without stunning them from max range, you'll have a better chance with more force speeding. Of course, if you have a problem now you need to work on it.

[Leiralei]

This change is going to take some getting used to. On my Sage I'm used to speeding into the bunker in Novare, planting my face into the console, and knocking the enemies away with my butt.

 

Guess that's not very dignified, though, and somewhat unbefitting a Jedi. >.>

[UGLYMRJ]

The net result of all changes is a buff, however the fact that some of the buffs included unnecessary changes and others included unnecessary nerfs means that we are moving from dead last to tied in dead last with Mercs. What is the point of a buff if the net result is that we are in the exact same position as we were before?

 

I don't see it that way... but I suppose only time will tell.

 

On top of that we haven't seen the complete patch notes yet but everything I've seen so far make my sorc happy. honestly I was fine with the class before the changes and I think the changes are only going to make me live longer.

[Sock_Bramson]

Well, philar, it's mostly speculation at this point, but I'm confident that the buffs both classes are receiving will make them much more competitive. Plus, there will probably be more changes to consider before all is said and done.

 

There will always be specs that people feel aren't optimal for pvp/pve, but I've seen great players top the charts with "bad" specs. There will always be optimal specs for rated play, but it seems like things are moving in the right direction to make the sub-par specs fun and competitive for normal wzs. (maybe even rateds, but we'll see)

 

For the record, I have no problem with good pyro mercs or madness sorcs in rated play right now. I've even seen gunnery and lightning specs carry their weight in ranked. (One of my guild's healers switched to lit. one night when we needed a dps. He was solidly in the middle of the dps pack, not at the bottom.)

[DarthOvertone]

Unsurprisingly, a Shadow fails to understand why a shared skill is so important for their alternate AC.

 

I don't fail to understand that the skill is important to the alternate AC. I'm not a huge fan of the change. However, the change makes complete sense to me, and as a result, I embrace the Cone.

 

 

Umm... when you are stun locked by an operative facing your opponent is not an option.

 

When you are stunlocked, neither moving or using any skill is an option. Mainly because, well...you're stunlocked. So what's your point?

 

 

You always have a lot to say for someone who isnt playing the class. I'm almost getting the impression that you think that shadows and sages are the same thing, on behalf of both being consulars. Is this where you tell me that you actually have one and just forgot to add it to your sig?

 

I haven't said a word about Sages. What are you talking about? All of my input has been concerning Force Wave.

 

And haven't you quit the game now like 7 times already? You always have a lot to say for someone that quit the game six months ago.

[L-RANDLE]

I haven't said a word about Sages. What are you talking about? All of my input has been concerning Force Wave.

 

And haven't you quit the game now like 7 times already? You always have a lot to say for someone that quit the game six months ago.

But his point is valid. For you, one of its many uses is not primarily for melee defense. Since we are squishy, we get ********'d. Removing the radius just delete people at the party, instead of the entire party.

 

Changing the range is irrelevant, and here is why. As I stated earlier, we use it almost purely as a defense mechanism, which also means we are in melee range of enemies. People 5m+ away are not of concern, as we should be snaring, pillar humping, etc. It is currently at 8m radius, already enough to get melee off you. So the "buff" is acting more like a ranged, semi-AoE push, but no Sage/Sorc has any issues with this move currently, besides the animation/lag. Your view is from the Shadow view, but you are pretty good in melee or range and you got hard mitigations, so it is not vital. For us, it is.

 

Why, oh why didn't I take the shadow pill?

Edited September 6, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Darth_Philar]

Tounge in Cheek Alert:

 

 

The blog can be summarized into the following patch notes:

It turns out that Sorcerers were still entering the queue for PvP post 1.3. This was not intended. Sorcerer players will no longer have access to the PvP queue button until their Sorcerer has been confirmed to be deleted and rerolled.

[MidichIorian]

I haven't said a word about Sages. What are you talking about? All of my input has been concerning Force Wave.

I know but you have mostly replied and tried to debunk arguments coming from sorcs/sages in your "ten quotes" posts. Hence, you seem to think that the ability is used in the same way for all consulars/inquisitors and regardless of AC. Sorcs/sages do not have an emergency aka camo button and the same defensive abilties. If you had played one you would have known.

 

And haven't you quit the game now like 7 times already? You always have a lot to say for someone that quit the game six months ago.

I think you're confusing me with someone els unless you are refering to my quite obviously sarcastic "retirement" thread, which wasnt 6 months ago.

 

Also, gotta' love how UGLYMRJ aka everything is fine as long as my main two classes remain on the throne has an opinion on everything without actually having played the AC in the 50-bracket. Is your salary based on post count or are you getting a monthly check from BW? And trust me, I've seen videos of the crappy Bastion sorcs and I wasnt impressed. If it hadnt been for the 300 ms latency I would have rolled a char there a long time ago just to shut you people up.

Edited September 6, 2012 by MidichIorian