Force Wave/Overload Change in 1.4 - An appeal to reconsider

[Phinub]

I don't see it that way... especially with my hybrid spec. Basically I have a force push after 1.4 that pushes multiple targets. And roots them on my spec, not only that.... but my force sprint is potentially on a 10 second CD if spec'd into. (All of these fall into my hybrid spec BTW, not to mention the stun on bubble pop). And maybe for me it's easier than it is for some, having a marauder as my main. But annihilation is easy... as soon as they leap... I sprint and slow. I rarely need the KB. Carnage is a different story and much tougher to counter.... but I hardly see my knock back pushing them even further back, and having a shorter CD on sprint being any more of a disadvantage than was already there. I see more tools, not less. If timed properly I see this being an even greater advantage over marauders just for the sake of example that you used. Of course... there are a few good marauders that counter well... but the other 90% of em fall to my lightning spam pre 1. 4. Personally... I love the changes.

 

I don't see how you can see this as a nerf in any way? It now knocks them further back than before? It's a nerf because I have to aim? I don't get it...

 

If I have so many people on me that I can't knock them all off me within 120 degree cone... well I might as well save the CD cuz my squishy self is dropping anyways.

 

Counter leap with sprint, counter roots with overload and root them, slow and a bubble pop stun to top it off... ALL of which are on a shorter CD than a marauders ravage, leap and cloak. A properly used root on deadly throw is going to be one of a marauders few chances to get close to me... the way I see it anyways.

 

My biggest point is sorcs have more post 1.4, not less. So why should anyone rolling a sorc complain? I've been doing just fine pre 1.4. I never thought they were that bad.... and we just got better? I look forward to 1. 4

 

I'm slightly confused by what you mean. Counter leap with sprint? You're rooted, they'll get at least one attack on you if you wait it out and they have the oppertunity to cc you, be it snare or choke. Or are you using your cc break on this?

Also I'm curious if this is from a lvl 50 perspective, 'cause some time ago i remember reading you weren't lvl 50 yet. I'm not trying to attack you btw, just figuring out in what light i need to hold this.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Phinub

[DarthOvertone]

Oh nooo, you're going to have to aim your knockback.

 

This. I honestly don't understand all the QQ about this change. The skill has been made more precise and the player will now have more control over the skill. This is a good thing. Sure, I like the current Force Wave, but it's very spammy and haphazard in PvP and PvE. The change makes complete sense.

[Darth_Philar]

I sprint away from annihilation and rage marauders all the time. The only ravage I used the knock back for is the one I'm rooted by, carnage. Unless sprint is on CD and that's not going to be as common of a problem any more.

 

Again though... I don't get it. This is an improvement from before for sorcs. Marauders had all of this before.... sorcs now have more.

 

I honestly am just not understanding your point.

 

It almost like you're saying that sorcs are worse off than before and I don't understand how a move that now knocks back a target further, only it has to be aimed... is worse? The gain sounds better than the loss to me... and that's just in regards to one move.... that doesn't even count the other buffs we got.

 

I'm saying that the change to a frontal cone was unnecessary, and will serve to make it require even more skill than before to survive a Marauder. Since Sorcerers are the most difficult class to play well already, making them require more skill is 100% WRONG no matter how you justify it.

 

The buffs are nice, but the nerf aspect is completely unwarranted.

[SlimsPicken]

if you dont know how to strafe properly this change is going to hurt.

[PakaOno]

I commented on the main thread and will do here as well.

 

This change proves how out of touch the devs are with PvP especially in regards to class balancing.

 

I def won't be playing my Sage if this change goes live.

[Kegparty]

It has an increased effective distance but it does not say it increases the distance you are pushed

[Larry_Dallas]

This. I honestly don't understand all the QQ about this change. The skill has been made more precise and the player will now have more control over the skill. This is a good thing. Sure, I like the current Force Wave, but it's very spammy and haphazard in PvP and PvE. The change makes complete sense.

 

There's already a low margin for error in dealing with leapers. You have to win wars of attrition. The current margin in the 50 bracket is range-creator during leap's animation or there's a good bet you'll die from a talented rupture or something of the sort. In eliminating overload's 360` KB to make it frontal only, you're adding both delay and additional potential for error (both human error and, with latency, machine error) to the equation. For a class that's already hard to play (have a carnage marauder, op healer, pyro and Vanguard tank also. A madness sorc is -by far- the hardest of these to have success with.) Why would making it harder and reducing the already-low margin for error make complete sense?

Edited September 5, 2012 by Larry_Dallas

[UGLYMRJ]

I'm slightly confused by what you mean. Counter leap with sprint? You're rooted, they'll get at least one attack on you if you wait it out and they have the oppertunity to cc you, be it snare or choke. Or are you using your cc break on this?

Also I'm curious if this is from a lvl 50 perspective, 'cause some time ago i remember reading you weren't lvl 50 yet. I'm not trying to attack you btw, just figuring out in what light i need to hold this.

It's very short root, even if spec'd into by the carnage tree. With a marauder having to basically "build up" the heavy hitting attacks... I'll gladly eat a few to save the knockback. I've found that sprinting after the root is much more effective most of the time since it creates more distance than the knockback does right now. I've noticed it being much more beneficial simply because I can create a large distance, slow and follow up with a few bleeds, deathfield and some lightning to slow them down further while their charge is on CD.

 

I prefer this over the knockback because the knockback creates a shorter distance right now making it easier for them to close the gap again, especially in carnage with the root on deadly throw. The sprint gives me much more distance to open the fight. Plus I like to use the sprint BEFORE the knockback simply because it's on a longer CD and gives me a greater chance of using it again in the fight. This may change post 1.4.

 

Still working my way through the 30's, but this works against most marauders that are closer to 50 as well. Carnage is the biggest problem of the class for sorcs right now. The more tools I get I only see it becoming easier, looking forward to a shorter CD on sprint and the stun on bubble pop as I level. The hybrid has a lot to offer defensively.

 

I'm saying that the change to a frontal cone was unnecessary, and will serve to make it require even more skill than before to survive a Marauder. Since Sorcerers are the most difficult class to play well already, making them require more skill is 100% WRONG no matter how you justify it.

 

The buffs are nice, but the nerf aspect is completely unwarranted.

 

THAT I can make sense of... but more than a fair trade is basically the summary of my point.

Edited September 5, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[DarthOvertone]

Why would making it harder and reducing the already-low margin for error make complete sense?

 

Since when is turning and having to face your opponent a hard thing to do?

 

And there is no low margin of error in the current skill. The current Force Wave is haphazard in its implementation. Using it in a group of peeps knocks back the wrong player(s) all the time, breaks CC all the time, unnecessarily contributes to opponent resolve all the time.

 

Players will now have more precision and control with the skill than they've ever had. All you have to do is aim correctly.

[Phinub]

It's very short root, even if spec'd into by the carnage tree. With a marauder having to basically "build up" the heavy hitting attacks... I'll gladly eat a few to save the knockback. I've found that sprinting from the root is much more effective most of the time since it creates more distance than the knockback does right now. I've noticed it being much more beneficial simply because I can create a large distance, slow and follow up with a few bleeds, deathfield and some lightning to slow them down further while their charge is on CD.

 

I prefer this over the knockback because the knockback creates a shorter distance right now making it easier for them to close the gap again, especially in carnage with the root on deadly throw. The sprint gives me much more distance to open the fight. Plus I like to use the sprint BEFORE the knockback simply because it's on a longer CD and gives me a greater chance of using it again in the fight. This may change post 1.4.

 

Still working my way through the 30's, but this works against most marauders that are closer to 50 as well. Carnage is the biggest problem of the class for sorcs right now. The more tools I get I only see it becoming easier, looking forward to a shorter CD on sprint and the stun on bubble pop as I level. The hybrid has a lot to offer defensively.

 

 

 

THAT I can make sense of... but more than a fair trade is basically the summary of my point.

 

Well just keep in mind that things might change when you get to lvl 50, I eventually spent most of my time running away from a disproportional amount of melee classes who all wanted to have a whack at that one sorc in the wz.

 

As a hybrid i guess you'll have slighly more to look forward to with the new changes. I was running 7/3/31 before i quit, which gains the least from this buff: a new self heal, 10s off sprint (these are good changes mind you) and an extra oppertunity to make a mistake with the 120 degree cone. This class is very unforgiving and what it does not need is another defensive instance where people can make a mistake. The skill cap of this class is high already, it doesn't need to go even higher by having a gimp knockback.

 

I'm fairly confident there will be plenty other balancing changes made in 1.4, but the details we've seen now do not look very convincing to me.

[SpaniardInfinity]

I think this thread is a bit premature for two reasons:

 

First of all, the patch notes aren't even out yet. There may be a change to another class (ie. leaps on a longer cooldown) that justify the fact that you can't just blindly knock people back. When the patch notes are up and we can finally see the whole scope of the changes, then I think we can start discussion what is and isn't a game-breaking nerf.

 

Secondly, I don't think this is as crippling as people are making it out to be. Unless you keyboard turn. Then its utterly crippling.

[UGLYMRJ]

This class is very unforgiving.

 

Here's a little secret.... that's my favorite part about this class.

 

Which is probably why you've never seen me create a nerf thread.

 

Secondly, I don't think this is as crippling as people are making it out to be. Unless you keyboard turn. Then its utterly crippling.

Pretty sure that is where the majority of the complaints are coming from. I still don't see the problem with this.

 

How is being in better control a bad thing?

 

It's instant AND it creates a larger gap now.... the people on this thread are arguing as if they wish it weren't changed at all.

Edited September 5, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[RattyRattail]

No one really has mentioned that sorcs now can now spec into a skill that makes it so that the sorc cannot be snared or rooted while force speeding, and force speed breaks any snares/roots that the player is currently under. The other item is that sorcs now have an ability that allows them to become uninterruptible for a time. Those are some pretty heavy buffs for PvP.

 

•Fadeout/Egress has been redesigned. Now causes Force Speed to remove all roots and snares and grant immunity to roots and snares for the duration.

•Polarity Shift/Mental Alacrity now additionally grants immunity to interrupts for the duration. Improved visual FX to demonstrate this effect.

[Phinub]

I think this thread is a bit premature for two reasons:

 

First of all, the patch notes aren't even out yet. There may be a change to another class (ie. leaps on a longer cooldown) that justify the fact that you can't just blindly knock people back. When the patch notes are up and we can finally see the whole scope of the changes, then I think we can start discussion what is and isn't a game-breaking nerf.

 

Secondly, I don't think this is as crippling as people are making it out to be. Unless you keyboard turn. Then its utterly crippling.

 

This is true and i'm sure there are a lot more things that are going to be changed. I can't see them allow certain specs to have sprint on a 10s cooldown or something.

 

I think most complaints are specifically about this skill in relation to leap. People want to get their kb off as quickly as possible when they get leaped by a marauder. There are alternatives to counter leap (whirlwind would be better) but that is not the point. The main complaint is you're rooted by the charge and need to react fast, which is now being made harder and can even miss completely.

[Larry_Dallas]

Since when is turning and having to face your opponent a hard thing to do?

 

Do me a favor. Get a PTS sorc or sage toon. Once this goes live, film yourself in a warzone for an entire match and post it here. We will count the number of times you execute (turn to face opponent)->(knockback) between the time an opponent positioned laterally or behind you starts the leap animation and the animation ends. My guess is the count will be zero.

 

 

And there is no low margin of error in the current skill. The current Force Wave is haphazard in its implementation. Using it in a group of peeps knocks back the wrong player(s) all the time, breaks CC all the time, unnecessarily contributes to opponent resolve all the time.

 

If you're taking a DPS sorceror into a pile to facetank enemies from all directions, you have no business telling anyone anything about skill with the class. Even in pug 50s, in optimized war hero, that would get you killed in 5 seconds. Overload seldom if ever breaks CCs, since you should rarely be near that many enemies.

 

 

Players will now have more precision and control with the skill than they've ever had. All you have to do is aim correctly.

 

This post reads like you have a jugg, not a sorceror, and are imagining what sorcerors do and do not use overload for based on how you use force push. It's not at all the same skill and it's not at all used the same way.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Larry_Dallas

[Altheran]

No one really has mentioned that sorcs now can now spec into a skill that makes it so that the sorc cannot be snared or rooted while force speeding, and force speed breaks any snares/roots that the player is currently under.

 

•Fadeout/Egress has been redesigned. Now causes Force Speed to remove all roots and snares and grant immunity to roots and snares for the duration.

 

Yeah, and that's pretty much better than the Shadow's/Assassin's tank spec talent that make Force Speed only remove slow/root effects but doesn't immunize against them. Maybe it they would add the immune effect in tank spec too instead of Elusiveness' CD reduction (and Assassin version too)

Edited September 5, 2012 by Altheran

[Hairyzac]

The problem is Overload is our only ability to save ourselves as sorcerers/sages. We have no cooldown to pop to reduce incoming damage for X amount of seconds. All we have is a 4s stun on a 1 min cd that is now only going to be a 10m range and that is it. You cannot nerf Overload.

 

As the squishiest class in the game, with the highest skill cap, and Overload being its ONLY ability to stop attackers from sending you to the spawn...why on earth would you turn it into a conal attack? Whilst other classes keep their aoe knockbacks and range on CCs while not having survivability issues in the danger zone, sorcerer's gets nerfed on both accounts? This is the opposite of what is needed and epitomizes stupidity in its highest form. Everyone knows sorcerers did not need nerfs, especially to their only abilities that keep them alive, Electrocute and Overload.

 

This is also a huge nerf in regards to CC'ing for someone planting a bomb or taking a node. When the enemy team resurrects currently, you can knock them back no matter how they position. With the change, even if you are able to position perfectly and lag or latency doesn't effect your Overload landing, it will still miss people as they will not all bunch together in front of you.

 

So this is a giant nerf in regards to class survivability, as well as objective play in warzones as described above.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Hairyzac

[UGLYMRJ]

Overload being its ONLY ability to stop attackers from sending you to the spawn....

 

I stopped reading here.... You're doing it wrong.

[Phinub]

Here's a little secret.... that's my favorite part about this class.

 

Which is probably why you've never seen me create a nerf thread.

 

I can appreciate that, but as someone who's main and only lvl 50 is a sorc eventually enough is enough.

 

Those are some pretty heavy buffs for PvP.

 

•Fadeout/Egress has been redesigned. Now causes Force Speed to remove all roots and snares and grant immunity to roots and snares for the duration.

•Polarity Shift/Mental Alacrity now additionally grants immunity to interrupts for the duration. Improved visual FX to demonstrate this effect.

Fadeout is deep in the healing tree (16 pts) and polarity shift is even deeper lightning tree (21 pts), good changes by themselves, but people will not be benefitting from both at the same time. The skill trees might be altered of course, but this is how it currently stands.

I can safely say that i don't know a single good dps sorc that is specced that deep into corruption or lightning. They're good changes for the people that do spec that far, especially fadeout, but the change to polarity shift hardly seems to make the lightning tree more viable... at best it makes it more viable for 10s every 2 minutes.

[UGLYMRJ]

I can appreciate that, but as someone who's main and only lvl 50 is a sorc eventually enough is enough.

.

 

Honestly... My main is a marauder and then I have a 50 PT as well.

 

My sorc is more fun and probably gets more play than my others. I don't think they're in that bad of a place right now personally. It's near impossible to survive if ganged up on... but I adjusted to that feeling after rolling a PT.

 

I more than welcome these changes... I was doing fine before them and expect to do even better after.

 

Pretty much why I'm on the "nerf complaints" band wagon.

[Kegparty]

2 questions

 

1 anyone actually play lightning in ranked when people know how to interrupt long cast times? Even with the changes can they see this as viable ( I current run hybrid )

2 I personally play with a 100+ ping and when I stun the character jumps. Will I start missing my cone effect?

 

I really want to pick up my sorc again but I only see healing tree as viable with 1.4

Edited September 5, 2012 by Kegparty

[Hairyzac]

I stopped reading here.... You're doing it wrong.

 

Please stop trying to make yourself look cool on video game forums, by calling me out and not even knowing what you speak of sir. You seem to be on some sort of idiotic crusade. Well I don't want any part of it. Only facts belong in this thread. There is no spell other than Overload to stop multiple melee from hitting you. Please cease all inflammatory posting and be constructive.

[Hairyzac]

Honestly... My main is a marauder and then I have a 50 PT as well.

 

My sorc is more fun and probably gets more play than my others. I don't think they're in that bad of a place right now personally. It's near impossible to survive if ganged up on... but I adjusted to that feeling after rolling a PT.

 

I more than welcome these changes... I was doing fine before them and expect to do even better after.

 

Pretty much why I'm on the "nerf complaints" band wagon.

 

Actually if ganged up on, you can cast Overload and knock them all back. With the changes, that won't be possible anymore due to positioning and latency and where the game says players are, and where they actually are. I was doing more than fine before these changes, and the new Overload will not make survivability any better coupled with a nerfed Electrocute range.

[cycao]

Yeah, and that's pretty much better than the Shadow's/Assassin's tank spec talent that make Force Speed only remove slow/root effects but doesn't immunize against them. Maybe it they would add the immune effect in tank spec too instead of Elusiveness' CD reduction (and Assassin version too)

 

Yeah I would say hands down its better. That skill is needed for a tank to stay close to the healer when guard is up. I cannot tell you how many times I get rooted as soon as I hit force speed. Lucky for me I no longer need to play tank and I can play what I really want which is madness.

[Chemic_al]

 

Still working my way through the 30's,

 

That tells everyone all they need to know about how valuable your comments are to this discussion... ie worthless.

 

You haven't got a clue what 50pvp is like as a madness sorc, which basically got no help at all and 2 nerfs.

 

Sorcs as a whole got no proper defensive cooldown. We did not get the much needed buff to dps or any burst which would make the class viable.

 

1.4 will be another epic fail for the class and relegated to those who indulge in masochism.