Force Wave/Overload Change in 1.4 - An appeal to reconsider

[ccoolmint]

Tounge in Cheek Alert:

 

 

The blog can be summarized into the following patch notes:

It turns out that Sorcerers were still entering the queue for PvP post 1.3. This was not intended. Sorcerer players will no longer have access to the PvP queue button until their Sorcerer has been confirmed to be deleted and rerolled.

 

LOL you just explained the new class changes perfectly

[leto_cleon]

When you are stunlocked, neither moving or using any skill is an option. Mainly because, well...you're stunlocked. So what's your point?

 

With skill there is some times that tiny gap in the stun lock where you can knockback the Operative using the 360 force wave. A frontal cone means that the Operative now has a 240 degree safe arc.

 

 

I mean seriously... we should be very upset with something being changed that now requires more skill involved. Whether it's actually improved or not is irrelevant. Do you have any idea how hard it is going to be to keyboard turn AND click the ability at the same time before the other players move out of my giant cone?

 

Ability delay and short knockback requires less skill? I don't think so. In terms of skill its also not how the player himself uses the ability, its how it can be countered. The 120 cone is so easily countered. And yes you can quit trolling already.

[Wainamoinen]

Not an ad hominem. It is the only logical explanation. Your attempt to classify it as such is a straw man, however.

 

There is absolutely no justification for the cone effect and as it will only benefit melee classes (who are in no need of assistance) then the only reason one would even consider defending such a ridiculous change is if they personally benefit from it.

 

It is obviously an ad hominem, claiming that I'm only arguing the point out of self-interest. It's attacking the speaker not the argument.

 

This may come as a surprise, but people can argue a point because they believe it to be true without self-interest playing a part. Do you ever do that?

 

I have no self-interest either way. The enormous bleating over a tweak to one ability, that may or may not make it more powerful (who's tried it out to say?), all the while ignoring the rest of the buffs the class is getting, is teriffically over the top.

[UGLYMRJ]

With skill there is some times that tiny gap in the stun lock where you can knockback the Operative using the 360 force wave. A frontal cone means that the Operative now has a 240 degree safe arc.

 

 

 

 

Ability delay and short knockback requires less skill? I don't think so. In terms of skill its also not how the player himself uses the ability, its how it can be countered. The 120 cone is so easily countered. And yes you can quit trolling already.

 

You can turn quicker than he can run behind you... Unless you keyboard turn... This is completely false. Especially since its instant now.

 

And please... Explain to me how you "easily counter" an instant attack?

 

Again... Unless you're keyboard turning this change is a huge buff, not nerf. Instant and larger area of effect. Having to aim the ability is only going to work in the class's favor as it will knock back enemies in one direction and potentially further back creating more distance than pre 1.4.

 

Do you not see the advantage of having all of your enemies in front of you instead of having them a few meters further in all directions? A well times knock back will be far more effective that the existing version. I currently aim my knock backs... In order to remove as many people from the attacks on me as possible... Anyone complaining about this change is obviously just spamming it in order to live a few seconds longer... So to you I say...

 

You're doing it wrong.

[leto_cleon]

You can turn quicker than he can run behind you... Unless you keyboard turn... This is completely false. Especially since its instant now.

 

Nope a 120 cone means that melee just needs to run off to 240 degree safe zone, which at melee range is very very easy to get to.

 

And please... Explain to me how you "easily counter" an instant attack?

 

Simple, at melee range the attacker slides into the 240 degree safezone, the attack misses and it goes on cooldown. There's 240 degrees to play with. Its pretty obvious that a 15m 120 degree frontal cone is will not given to players to use at every GCD (or even every alternate GCD). Cooldown goes off, repeat.

 

Again... Unless you're keyboard turning this change is a huge buff, not nerf. Instant and larger area of effect. Having to aim the ability is only going to work in the class's favor as it will knock back enemies in one direction and potentially further back creating more distance than pre 1.4.

 

Umm... Shadows are a melee class, a melee class needs a gap closer on the offence not a gap creator. Sage DPS might find the gap creator useful on offence but not Shadows.

 

Do you not see the advantage of having all of your enemies in front of you instead of having them a few meters further in all directions? A well times knock back will be far more effective that the existing version. I currently aim my knock backs... In order to remove as many people from the attacks on me as possible... Anyone complaining about this change is obviously just spamming it in order to live a few seconds longer... So to you I say...

 

You're doing it wrong.

 

That's a lot of assumptions to make. The current 360 force wave is used most optimally to get melee off you as well as throw other attackers out of position. This fulfills both defensive and support purposes. This is how to use the ability. A 120 degree frontal cone pushes this ability into a support ability, meaning that it is most useful for knock melee off your teammate and needing to rely on someone else to do the same for you. By now not being able to at least clear off all of your own melee attacker(s) at least for a few brief seconds, this change is more of a crutch that does adversely affect survivability.

 

In PVP especially, more often then not, smart melee attackers already come at you from the side and the back, rooting and stunning you before they open up with their burst. At melee range, no matter how fast you turn, any class can skilfully get into the 240 degree safe zone.

[UGLYMRJ]

I make these assumptions because your logic is fail. You act as if a sorc doesn't have a strafe button and is incapable of moving. I can turn faster than a character can strafe... Simple as that. It's an instant attack so there is NO reaction time against it. I can also position myself to where the majority of my attackers if not all will be in the cone. Granted, some players will be aware and manage to escape into the safe zone. But from my experience if ALREADY AIMING MY OVERLOAD... I see a huge benefit from the changes being made.

 

If you don't... Perhaps you should put yours on the shelf.

[Sock_Bramson]

...it is most useful for knock melee off your teammate and needing to rely on someone else to do the same for you.\

 

This is the crux of why you're wrong. If you can't see the defensive uses of a 15m KB, then I guess there's no helping you. The more offensive/support uses are just an added bonus. (hello, instant 15m aoe cap stopper)

[MidichIorian]

A more pressing issue, what will it look like? Will the animation be different? I think it should considering that the force is pushed forward instead of down and out in a circular blast wave. Edited September 7, 2012 by MidichIorian

[UGLYMRJ]

A nore pressing issue, what will it look like? Will the animation be different? I think it should considering that the force is pushed forward instead of down and out in a circular blast wave.

 

If you look at the patch summary that was released... I think it's safe to assume it will be changed and I also think its safe to assume that the pic of the sage on the right gives a glimpse of what the new animation looks like.

[leto_cleon]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5127908&postcount=157

This is the crux of why you're wrong. If you can't see the defensive uses of a 15m KB, then I guess there's no helping you. The more offensive/support uses are just an added bonus. (hello, instant 15m aoe cap stopper)

 

I would consider a 15m KB to protect a node as support, but that's just a difference in terms used. But that's not where the problem is. The problem is the a now 240 degree cone gap in the Consular's defenses.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5127905&postcount=156

It's an instant attack so there is NO reaction time against it

The counter to a frontal cone is to make sure you're always outside the cone. It not about reaction time, its a plain simple positioning counter. On top of that melee DPS just need a tiny bit of co-ordination with one acting as a distraction for force the Force Wave to be hit and the other then coming in to burst down.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5127905&postcount=156

I can also position myself to where the majority of my attackers if not all will be in the cone.

Good for you, but its not about your positioning. Its about the smart melee DPS now being able to abuse a 240 degree cone where you can't knockback. Competent melee DPS avoid the front of their target.

[UGLYMRJ]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5127908&postcount=157

 

 

I would consider a 15m KB to protect a node as support, but that's just a difference in terms used. But that's not where the problem is. The problem is the a now 240 degree cone gap in the Consular's defenses.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5127905&postcount=156

 

The counter to a frontal cone is to make sure you're always outside the cone. It not about reaction time, its a plain simple positioning counter. On top of that melee DPS just need a tiny bit of co-ordination with one acting as a distraction for force the Force Wave to be hit and the other then coming in to burst down.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5127905&postcount=156

 

Good for you, but its not about your positioning. Its about the smart melee DPS now being able to abuse a 240 degree cone where you can't knockback. Competent melee DPS avoid the front of their target.

 

All of those arguments are negated by the fact that I can turn faster than you can move...

 

GG tho... you win. I'm tired of arguing logic with the illogical.

 

Enjoy the QQ fest.

[leto_cleon]

All of those arguments are negated by the fact that I can turn faster than you can move...

 

The consideration in PVP is the using an ability well and how it can be countered. The 120 degree conal Force Wave will probably have a cooldown. So no matter how fast you turn you can only clear 120 degrees. That leaves another 240 degrees that's not cleared.

 

PVP Warzones are also not about 'I' and 'me'. The point being made is that there is an adverse effect to the contribution that Consulars make to the team.

 

I'm tired of arguing logic with the illogical. Enjoy the QQ fest.

Yeah, you're not obliged to post on this topic. Its not like there's free warzone commendations for posting stuff on this thread.

[Himeji_Endless]

Its gonna be like a group force push that juggys have ... SUPER FUN TIMES!!!

[kweassa]

It's quite interesting to note that how people complain "this game has no skill"... and yet, when a change occurs that allows more skill involved, people now hate it.

 

Instant activation at the price of limited effective angle - a good trade off, if you ask me. Provided you have better judgement on positioning + more precise control + faster reaction time, than your opponent, this change actually has higher tactical value in terms of combat.

 

Basically a PBAoE KB with a delayed activation time has changed into an instant activation, frontal angle, ranged KB. Heck, this alone means a ramp-fight against a sorc/sage is going to become much, much tougher for melees.... since currently, good players can easily negate the effects of Force Wave in Huttball through micro controlling relative positions so you don't fall off the ramp when you are actually knocked.

 

I would take the new Force Wave over the old one anyday.

[kweassa]

The consideration in PVP is the using an ability well and how it can be countered. The 120 degree conal Force Wave will probably have a cooldown. So no matter how fast you turn you can only clear 120 degrees. That leaves another 240 degrees that's not cleared.

 

There's this thing called "positioning", where you can actually move around the playfield so all your nearby enemies are grouped to one direction.

 

But ofcourse, it also requires this thing called, "skill" and "reflexes"... so I can understand why terribads would have trouble with this change.

Edited September 7, 2012 by kweassa

[MidichIorian]

In that case, let's make leap more skilled too. I suggest that the leap mechanic will be changed from simply targeting a player to an AOE circle on the ground and unless the player you intend on leaping to is in the aoe when you click the launch button you will miss. Your mouse movement is obviously faster than in-game player movement so this shouldnt be a problem. I have on good authority that skilled players arent affected by latency. The aoe circle will be 3 meters in diameter. Should we make it smaller? Now that I think about it, 3 meters is too much for your skill, let's make it 1 meter. Edited September 7, 2012 by MidichIorian

[warultima]

In that case, let's make leap more skilled too. I suggest that the leap mechanic will be changed from simply targeting a player to an AOE circle on the ground and unless the player you intend on leaping to is in the aoe when you click the launch button you will miss. Your mouse movement is obviously faster than in-game player movement so this shouldnt be a problem. I have on good authority that skilled players arent affected by latency. The aoe circle will be 3 meters in diameter. Should we make it smaller? Now that I think about it, 3 meters is too much for your skill, let's make it 1 meter.

 

Brilliant changes. I approve maybe some people will finally learn to play to win and not being carried by their class to win.

Edited September 7, 2012 by warultima

[warultima]

You may be talking out your *** right now, but turning force leap into an aoe would be interesting....

 

Definitely. Do the ground targeting force charge it will AoE up to 3 people... great buff.

[MidichIorian]

Definitely. Do the ground targeting force charge it will AoE up to 3 people... great buff.

No it can only target one player. It will be similar to a huttball throw, whoever's closest to the middle gets it. Damn, I didnt realize it until I wrote it but the mechanic is already in the game so it's just a matter if applying to leaps too. I'm pretty sure that they can have it ready for 1.4.

 

What els is in desperate need of more "skill"? Snipers are obviously hitting too hard with very little effort so I suggest that cover mode changes their view into some form of fps view where they have to move around a reticule.

 

They should just hire me, this would be the game all the pros played and where pros are casuals will follow.

This goes into the suggestion box, a place where good ideas die.

Edited September 7, 2012 by MidichIorian

[leto_cleon]

There's this thing called "positioning", where you can actually move around the playfield so all your nearby enemies are grouped to one direction.

 

Yes, but more often than not you are stunned, rooted or at least slowed and need to use a breaker before you can actually re-position. That's more than 1 GCD for competent melee dps to get into the 240 degree safe zone.

[Sock_Bramson]

Alright, my geometry is rusty, but here it goes...

 

Current overload: circle with 8m radius. pie (we'll just say 3.14) * r squared = area

 

3.14 * (8*8) -> 3.14 * 64 = an area of 200.96 square meters

 

New overload: 120 degree 15m cone (1/3 of a circle)

 

[3.14 * (15 * 15) ] / 3 --> [3.14 * (225)] / 3 --> [706.5] / 3 = an area of 235.5 square meters

 

So, we actually have a larger AoE now. (by 34.9 square meters, for those of you keeping count)

 

Your new "blind spot" will only be a problem if you allow yourself to be surrounded, which will be easier to prevent with the greater range (and area of effect) of Overload and more opportunities to re position thanks to the new force speed. And if you DO let someone get behind you, just don't fire off your KB while you're facing away from them. Turn yourself a bit/ slow them first to give yourself some breathing room/ sprint away, turn and KB. Hell, stun them first if you really have to (you shouldn't, but w/e); might be worth it to get them into some fire or off a bridge.

 

Don't have a conniption over something you haven't even tried yet. Instead, try to conceptualize how you will use the new move; you'll start to see quite a few awesome uses for it.

 

Addendum: You shouldn't letting yourself get surrounded now, either. There are many better uses for overload than a last-ditch stop-gap against melee. Without electric bindings, this will only buy you a second or 2 (maybe 3 max). With electric bindings, it is still better to re position a bit so you can root them out of LoS.

 

Another addendum for cleon: if you're stunned, you're not using your KB, are you? When you do break, use the .5 seconds of delay we have now to face your attacker and use your shiny new instant KB. Plus, this'll work against ranged attackers in the new 15m sweet spot. If you use your break on slows/roots, well... you shouldn't, that's dumb. Besides, I'm pretty sure you can still turn while rooted. (I'll just enjoy my impair-breaking force speed)

Edited September 7, 2012 by Sock_Bramson

[UGLYMRJ]

Alright, my geometry is rusty, but here it goes...

 

Current overload: circle with 8m radius. pie (we'll just say 3.14) * r squared = area

 

3.14 * (8*8) -> 3.14 * 64 = an area of 200.96 square meters

 

New overload: 120 degree 15m cone (1/3 of a circle)

 

[3.14 * (15 * 15) ] / 3 --> [3.14 * (225)] / 3 --> [706.5] / 3 = an area of 235.5 square meters

 

So, we actually have a larger AoE now. (by 34.9 square meters, for those of you keeping count)

 

Your new "blind spot" will only be a problem if you allow yourself to be surrounded, which will be easier to prevent with the greater range (and area of effect) of Overload and more opportunities to re position thanks to the new force speed. And if you DO let someone get behind you, just don't fire off your KB while you're facing away from them. Turn yourself a bit/ slow them first to give yourself some breathing room/ sprint away, turn and KB. Hell, stun them first if you really have to (you shouldn't, but w/e); might be worth it to get them into some fire or off a bridge.

 

Don't have a conniption over something you haven't even tried yet. Instead, try to conceptualize how you will use the new move; you'll start to see quite a few awesome uses for it.

 

Addendum: You shouldn't letting yourself get surrounded now, either. There are many better uses for overload than a last-ditch stop-gap against melee. Without electric bindings, this will only buy you a second or 2 (maybe 3 max). With electric bindings, it is still better to re position a bit so you can root them out of LoS.

 

Another addendum for cleon: if you're stunned, you're not using your KB, are you? When you do break, use the .5 seconds of delay we have now to face your attacker and use your shiny new instant KB. Plus, this'll work against ranged attackers in the new 15m sweet spot. If you use your break on slows/roots, well... you shouldn't, that's dumb. Besides, I'm pretty sure you can still turn while rooted. (I'll just enjoy my impair-breaking force speed)

 

Facts and logic aren't welcome here....

 

[MidichIorian]

Ha, using area is like the worst argument ever. So if the AOE for FW would be 1 meter wide and 240 meters long it would according to your logic be better? Or how about a...I dont know.....spiral shaped AOE? It could in theory be much bigger than 240m2 but have gaps in every rotation. Would that work? You know the current AOE marks, what if only the green parts would carry the effect? [/logic at it's finest] Edited September 7, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Sock_Bramson]

Um, yes please on the 240m ranged KB? Good try being cheeky and all, but the AREA an AoE ability effects is pretty important. Edited September 7, 2012 by Sock_Bramson

[Larry_Dallas]

Alright, my geometry is rusty, but here it goes...

 

Current overload: circle with 8m radius. pie (we'll just say 3.14) * r squared = area

 

3.14 * (8*8) -> 3.14 * 64 = an area of 200.96 square meters

 

New overload: 120 degree 15m cone (1/3 of a circle)

 

[3.14 * (15 * 15) ] / 3 --> [3.14 * (225)] / 3 --> [706.5] / 3 = an area of 235.5 square meters

 

So, we actually have a larger AoE now. (by 34.9 square meters, for those of you keeping count)

 

Your new "blind spot" will only be a problem if you allow yourself to be surrounded, which will be easier to prevent with the greater range (and area of effect) of Overload and more opportunities to re position thanks to the new force speed. And if you DO let someone get behind you, just don't fire off your KB while you're facing away from them. Turn yourself a bit/ slow them first to give yourself some breathing room/ sprint away, turn and KB. Hell, stun them first if you really have to (you shouldn't, but w/e); might be worth it to get them into some fire or off a bridge.

 

Maybe your installation differs from everyone else's, but humor me for a moment: why do you give a fig whether an enemy is static at 14m or 22? Every class does the exact same amount of damage at the first distance as it does at the second, whether it's zero dps or 1500 dps.

 

 

Don't have a conniption over something you haven't even tried yet. Instead, try to conceptualize how you will use the new move; you'll start to see quite a few awesome uses for it.

 

Here you go. Suppose the enemy is an annihilation marauder. A madness sorc should always win this matchup unless he or she makes a mistake or mayyyyybe the marauder pops predation unexpectedly (though predation from an anni mara is not the game-over it is from carnage). If leap is countered correctly (during the animation), no 4meter skill can be used by the marauder until, at the earliest, the 36.5 second mark of the fight. At that point, the sorc has range creators in its back pocket for UR and has caused so much damage vs what the marauder's done that it won't lose the fight unless it stands at 4m for the entire duration of UR.

 

Post-change, leap can be countered during its animation only by electrocute, since the duration of the animation is long enough to fire off a binding, but not long enough to spin the camera 180` and fire off a binding (new overload) before the animation ends. Which means your first 4m skill comes at the 12.5 second mark, when you use overload. If said skill is either crippling slash or talented rupture, the sorc needs to use force speed too. Suppose the marauder cloaks at this point. When he pops out of stealth, the sorc CCs him. Whether he breaks or not, he's now whitebarred, his next leap is in a couple of seconds and the sorc has no range creator to keep him out of 4 m when it comes off cooldown. In the 8 or so seconds before force speed comes off cooldown, the sorc will probably be killed. If not, the sorc needs to use force speed to get away and has nothing he can do when leap comes back off cooldown in 4 seconds.

 

Changing the way overload works just turned a win into a loss.

 

 

Addendum: You shouldn't letting yourself get surrounded now, either. There are many better uses for overload than a last-ditch stop-gap against melee. Without electric bindings, this will only buy you a second or 2 (maybe 3 max). With electric bindings, it is still better to re position a bit so you can root them out of LoS.

 

You have no understanding of how DPSers play this class. Healers don't have the same set of problems DPS do with any class. You probably struggle with anni marauders because they interrupt you and less with carnage because all you need to do is stun during gore, knockback before the third hit of ravage and then heal through their damage. Sorc DPS couldn't give a flying care about an anni mara's interrupts. And are usually destroyed by carnage whether gore is up or not.

 

The most important thing is for no melee to get a hit in at 4m. Ever. The ideal range is 11<30 (a number of classes have snares at up to 10 that require additional action), but it is imperative that none of them ever be at 4. Overload accomplishes that quite well at present. Overload plus creeping terror plus strafing will get you to 11, where you will stay until a 30m range-creator comes off cooldown. After all, you strafe just as fast as they pursue you.

 

 

 

Another addendum for cleon: if you're stunned, you're not using your KB, are you? When you do break, use the .5 seconds of delay we have now to face your attacker and use your shiny new instant KB. Plus, this'll work against ranged attackers in the new 15m sweet spot. If you use your break on slows/roots, well... you shouldn't, that's dumb. Besides, I'm pretty sure you can still turn while rooted. (I'll just enjoy my impair-breaking force speed)

 

The mythical 20/20/20 spec again. A DPS DOES NOT HAVE AN IMPAIR-BREAKING FORCE SPEED.

 

And again, you have no understanding of how dps play this class. There's pretty much no reason ever to knock back a ranged attacker positioned at 15m or, really, any other distance apart from >25m (which overload will not hit). A ranged attacker hits the same at 0m, 15m, or 30m. And if you're referring to snipers, the way dps sorcs deal with them is to bleed them, line of sight them and drop deathfields (deathfield can hit without direct line of sight), not knock them out of cover, which is how melee deal with them. If a sorc stood in a sniper's line of sight, relying on a knockback to put the sniper out of cover for 1 gcd at most, the sniper just kneels right back down and pulverizes them. And, in fact, were you to try to kill a sniper without line of sight, you'd actually do better against him at 5 meters than you would knocking him back outside 10m because stun has had its range reduced (you would still die) for the sorc and not the sniper.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Larry_Dallas