Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4

[Chelz]

What is going on here? These are the changes you guys are making? Really? Stop with the PvP updates and focus on the story lines. There is nothing to do after lvl 50 but play Huttball 10 times in a row with the same 16 people. That is why you are loosing people. Fix and update the story lines.

 

 

Edit: Also, stop messing with the Sage/Sorc's. We get screwed enough.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Chelz

[Cakellene]

The only change that I immediately see as good, is changing overload into a cone, as it was completely overpowered in huttball and utterly useless in PVE.

 

That change will make it useless to me in PvE.

[bloomfireblade]

Every patch you nerf things for PVP that will have an unintended impact on PVE. Do you think force stun isn't used in PVE?

 

Is it not possible to have abilities work 1 way in PVP zones and another outside?

 

tell that to Austin Peckenpaugh he is the nerf master around here and as it stands this is what coming our way depending the none said tweaks are not doing more damage then good.

but that suggestion is good tbh why not have different affects on pvp and pve after all both are different fields

and should be also handled differently.

In Dev Evolution concerns as this is the philosophy of Bioware .and a splitting of pvp / pve skill effect would be an evolution in my pov

[Digimanbyte_ID]

What is going on here? These are the changes you guys are making? Really? Stop with the PvP updates and focus on the story lines. There is nothing to do after lvl 50 but play Huttball 10 times in a row with the same 16 people. That is why you are loosing people. Fix and update the story lines.

 

I think thats more of an expansion content. You do have operations. But like you clearly pointed out they really need to fix the huge population imbalances. Really disheartening to face a premade over and over to get squashed during peak hours or having to wait hours in queues during dead times.

 

Edit: Also, stop messing with the Sage/Sorc's. We get screwed enough.

 

QFT

 

I don't know what it is with every MMO and a sorcerer based class being nerfed down to useless meatbags that will go splat. But its really annoying to see other guys outlast my damage with their huge health while in the same gear I am in. But when the tables are turned I see one guy take on 5 others on that focuses a lot of time to kill them because of a bunch of CD's.

 

Either gives us the same defense type CD's you give to other ranged DPS/Healers. Or gives us overwhelming damage to give us a reason to be squash able.

[Darth_Philar]

I'm almost convinced that "Balance" at Bioware consists of two phases:

 

1. Throw dart at board to see which class to change.

2. Flip coin to see if buff or nerf.

[Cakellene]

I'm almost convinced that "Balance" at Bioware consists of two phases:

 

1. Throw dart at board to see which class to change.

2. Flip coin to see if buff or nerf.

 

That system would probably be an improvement.

[Darth_Philar]

Here is my full analysis of the impact of the change to Overload/Force Wave:

 

Knockbacks are used against melee, who are limited to 4 and 10 meter ranges. The gain from 8m to 15m range has NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER to the sorcerer, but the radius reduction has a negative impact for the sorcerer AND the knockback range increase from 8m to <10m actually HELPS the guy you are knocking back.

 

Here is how Overload works right now:

A. At <4m, melee can use all of their melee abilities. My knockback will move the melee from <4m to >4m & <10m.

 

B. At >4m & <8m, melee can use a handful of abilities, but are severely limited in DPS (and resource generation if JK/SW) and cannot instantly close the gap (unless Rage specced). My knockback will move the melee from >4m & <8m to >8m & <12m

 

C. At >8m & <10m, the same limits on melee apply from B. above, however I cannot use my knockback on these players since my range is 8m.

 

D. At 10m, melee are able to use their instant gap closer and return to <4m.

 

Ergo, my knockback's primary effectiveness is from >0m to <6m (moving melee attackers to >4 to <10m). Any enemy that is between 6 and 8 meters will gain enough space to be able to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 8 to <10 meters will not be affected by the knockback, but will also be unable to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 10 to 30 meters will not be affected by the knockback but will be able to use their gap closer.

 

Here is how Overload will work with this change:

A. At <4m, melee can use all of their melee abilities. My knockback will move the melee from <4m to >4m & <10m.

 

B. At >4m & <8m, melee can use a handful of abilities, but are severely limited in DPS (and resource generation if JK/SW) and cannot instantly close the gap (unless Rage specced). My knockback will move the melee from >4m & <8m to >8m & <12m

 

C. At >8m & <10m, the same limits on melee apply from B. above. My knockback will move the melee from >8m & <10m to >12m & <14m removing the gap closing restriction from the melee.

 

D. At 10m, melee are able to use their instant gap closer and return to <4m.

 

Ergo, my knockback's primary effectiveness remains from >0m to <6m (moving melee attackers to >4 to <10m). Any enemy that is between 6 and 8 meters will gain enough space to be able to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 8 to <10 meters will be affected by the knockback, AND will also be able to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 10 to 15 meters will be affected by the knockback and will be able to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 15 to 30 meters will be unaffected by the knockback and will be able to use their gap closer.

 

Essentially, this change makes it EASIER for melee to close the gap on the sorcerer since any knockback from 8 to <10 meters (which wasn't possible before) will give them enough space to leap to you. This effectively DOUBLES the range at which a knockback is detrimental to the user. Not only does the sorcerer have to aim the ability now, but we also must pay even more attention to the range meter on their portrait in order to ensure that we don't move them into leap range.

 

Quite possibly the single most idiotic change in the history of video game development.

[Sundragon]

I'll go ahead and provide you with the Bioware response:

 

But....but......the sorc/sage now get a moderate self-heal every 30 seconds!!! That more than compensates for the additional nerfs to the already weakest class in the game! Plus, you can now stun lock folks more easily!

[Karillon]

I agree with most of you that the developer had the wrong idea with these changes, it really does nothing to the balance of the game in warzones. The real issue was with sentinels and marauders. Take away thier leap, stealth escape, bubble and master strike, and then they will be close to being on the same playing level as the rest of the classes are.

 

Bioware - How many posts and suggestions by the other 1,000 people does it take for you to finally get it through your head that Sentinels and Marauders are way to overpowered. Was your intention just to see those two classes in PvP, because that's all you see now really. It's pathetic that no one wants to play any other class, they just follow where they think the most damage in PvP will lead them. Lemmings!

[BaronV]

Because your excellent explanation is long, Im quoting it below rather than above.

 

Id just like to add that in addition to what Dath_Philar said, Overload is also used to knock a group of melee attackers who have surrounded you. As D_P explained, the new overload's primary effectiveness is for <6m, but because of the idiotic cone, fewer people get knocked back. In fact if the enemies are right at you (1m or less) than only the person who is immediately in front of you will get knocked back! (remember the cone starts as a point at your positon and extends outward 120 deg) So in addition to all that you have to be sure you are perfectly facing the enemy to throw im behind...

 

Here is my full analysis of the impact of the change to Overload/Force Wave:

 

Knockbacks are used against melee, who are limited to 4 and 10 meter ranges. The gain from 8m to 15m range has NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER to the sorcerer, but the radius reduction has a negative impact for the sorcerer AND the knockback range increase from 8m to <10m actually HELPS the guy you are knocking back.

 

Here is how Overload works right now:

A. At <4m, melee can use all of their melee abilities. My knockback will move the melee from <4m to >4m & <10m.

 

B. At >4m & <8m, melee can use a handful of abilities, but are severely limited in DPS (and resource generation if JK/SW) and cannot instantly close the gap (unless Rage specced). My knockback will move the melee from >4m & <8m to >8m & <12m

 

C. At >8m & <10m, the same limits on melee apply from B. above, however I cannot use my knockback on these players since my range is 8m.

 

D. At 10m, melee are able to use their instant gap closer and return to <4m.

 

Ergo, my knockback's primary effectiveness is from >0m to <6m (moving melee attackers to >4 to <10m). Any enemy that is between 6 and 8 meters will gain enough space to be able to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 8 to <10 meters will not be affected by the knockback, but will also be unable to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 10 to 30 meters will not be affected by the knockback but will be able to use their gap closer.

 

Here is how Overload will work with this change:

A. At <4m, melee can use all of their melee abilities. My knockback will move the melee from <4m to >4m & <10m.

 

B. At >4m & <8m, melee can use a handful of abilities, but are severely limited in DPS (and resource generation if JK/SW) and cannot instantly close the gap (unless Rage specced). My knockback will move the melee from >4m & <8m to >8m & <12m

 

C. At >8m & <10m, the same limits on melee apply from B. above. My knockback will move the melee from >8m & <10m to >12m & <14m removing the gap closing restriction from the melee.

 

D. At 10m, melee are able to use their instant gap closer and return to <4m.

 

Ergo, my knockback's primary effectiveness remains from >0m to <6m (moving melee attackers to >4 to <10m). Any enemy that is between 6 and 8 meters will gain enough space to be able to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 8 to <10 meters will be affected by the knockback, AND will also be able to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 10 to 15 meters will be affected by the knockback and will be able to use their gap closer. Any enemy from 15 to 30 meters will be unaffected by the knockback and will be able to use their gap closer.

 

Essentially, this change makes it EASIER for melee to close the gap on the sorcerer since any knockback from 8 to <10 meters (which wasn't possible before) will give them enough space to leap to you. This effectively DOUBLES the range at which a knockback is detrimental to the user. Not only does the sorcerer have to aim the ability now, but we also must pay even more attention to the range meter on their portrait in order to ensure that we don't move them into leap range.

 

Quite possibly the single most idiotic change in the history of video game development.

[DorkTrooper]

I just don't want the devs to take away all of the combat abilities that make PvE fun for the benefit of the few PvPers that haven't already moved on to a different game and are unlikely to come back no matter what happens on SWTOR.

[ahduth]

Here is my full analysis of the impact of the change to Overload/Force Wave:

 

[wall of text]

 

Quite possibly the single most idiotic change in the history of video game development.

 

I wasn't really able to read all of that detailed analysis. Single most important thing as far as I can tell is Overload now just casts, and I don't have to wait for the animation. If you're really thinking that hard about the range of Overload... you might be doing it wrong.

 

Add that to improved force speed, and the HUGE buffs to Sorc healers with Fadeout and the new defensive CD heal... any melee want to play hide and go seek?

 

On a serious note though, should benefit chunky DPS classes like marauders in the end, as they should have more heals being thrown around. We'll have to see how it plays for teams once it launches.

[JikachiKreft]

"•Electrocute and Force Stun now have a 10-meter range."

Hey, i enjoyed the 30 meter range on electrocute. It meant i could stun an enemy that was further away and be able to make it to the target without running into blaster fire. or i could use it to stun the target while i activated crushing darkness without fear of being interrupted... definately NOT liking this idea..

 

•Overload and Force Wave have been redesigned. These abilities now knock back all targets within a 15-meter 120-degree cone in front of you.

Again, a very useful ability AS IS!! The 360 degre knockback was useful when being surrounded by mobs. Again, Really NOT liking this idea.. and all because PvP players cried?? give me a freakin break.. Keep this crap up and you'll start losing players!!

[Mharz]

So after 67 pages mostly consisting of "No don't do this please this is awful" we get PTS release notes that ignore the voice of the community.

 

I wonder why the game is struggling with player retention... or.. maybe not.

 

Bioware -

 

PLEASE MAKE RESOLVE FILL FASTER,

 

NOT SLOWER LIKE THE PTS SUGGESTS

 

STAY FULL LONGER, AND

 

PUNISH PEOPLE FOR SPAMMING CCs.

 

Thanks,

 

Someone that enjoys controlling his character, having fun and playing this game.

[DarthOvertone]

PLEASE MAKE RESOLVE...STAY FULL LONGER

 

Resolve will stay full a little bit longer. According to the 1.4 PTS Patch Notes, Resolve decay isn't going to kick in until the last cc effect expires. This is a pretty awesome change imo:

 

When a player becomes immune to control due to Resolve, his Resolve meter will not start decaying until after all the current controlling effects expire (instead of decaying immediately after the immunity begins).

Edited September 10, 2012 by DarthOvertone

[ahduth]

Mharz, this is a quote from the developer's notes:

 

As a result of these Resolve changes, unorganized teams will no longer pay huge penalties for overlapping control effects at critical moments. For example, it can frustrate players when pickup groups accidentally make a Marauder immune to Control because two or more teammates tried to stun him at once. The resulting unstoppable wrecking ball that the attacker transforms into made for a pretty poor experience for players trying to escape him. Additionally, we don’t like it when a Huttball ball carrier gets “fed” full Resolve by a disorganized pickup group trying to stop him from scoring by simultaneously landing multiple Control effects.

 

 

They're trying to make it so people don't have to spam CC. I think you're getting exactly what you're asking for - just may take a bit for people to adjust their play styles, once they learn marauders aren't that hard to kill.

Edited September 10, 2012 by ahduth
Grammar

[LordArtemis]

I can live with the distance changes. The anemic heal provided and the shorter cooldown on run will help (though I fail to see the logic in claiming that "running" when surrounded is now our best defense...ok, perhaps not claiming that but it does look like its being promoted that way, no root and all), but in the end the base mechanic still fails to consider the plight of a solo PVE player.

 

Sorcs are squishy. They need something to knock off those mobs so they can quickly cast a heal or bubble without knockback. Even a slight knockback will prevent the spell from firing on time, and this happens ALL THE TIME for me in PVE. Not sure if it happens to anyone else.

 

Essentially the changes will help with single mob boss battles when I cant shake agro, but my option now is to run from the fight instead of trying to make a stand.

[Mharz]

Mharz, this is a quote from the developer's notes:

 

They're trying to make it so people don't have to spam CC. I think you're getting exactly what you're asking for - just may take a bit for people to adjust their play styles, once they learn marauders aren't that hard to kill.

 

Wrong. Read what the notes say.

 

"...unorganized teams will no longer pay huge penalties for overlapping control effects at critical moments."

 

What I want is unorganized teams to PAY MORE penalties for spamming CCs.

 

In fact I think that ALL CCs, of any type should add to your resolve to the tune of 500 pts per second of ANY control and decay at a rate of 100 pts per second during which you are TOTALLY IMMUNE to CC. What this would mean is that for 2 seconds or more of ANY CC when that CC is over you get 10 seconds of complete freedom.

 

I also think the CC break should be on a 30 second CD.

[ahduth]

That makes it sound like you basically want to delete CC from the game altogether. During 10 seconds a marauder or a DPS jugg or whatever can do enormous damage to a sorc healer. Right now I'm spec'd into every defensive CD/skill/CC I can find, because the matches get boring when I, as one of the healers, can be removed from the match virtually instantaneously. And I know I spam CC (hell I throw it every single time something comes up), but it's because otherwise I'm just running around getting mauled by melee.

 

I hear where you're coming from (I assume you play a marauder or sent or something like that), I just ultimately want some balance that allows me to do some healing if we need it. Healing is part of team play too. Hopefully these changes make it a little more balanced.

[MidichIorian]

FW and Overload have, in the time it took between the patch notes linked in this thread and the patch notes for 1.4 on PTS, managed to go from "instant" to "activating more quickly".

[Mharz]

That makes it sound like you basically want to delete CC from the game altogether.

 

Sometimes yes. But a more balanced approach is to make CC the penalty for playing poorly or something that happens to you because you're up against a really skilled team.

 

I hear where you're coming from (I assume you play a marauder or sent or something like that), I just ultimately want some balance that allows me to do some healing if we need it. Healing is part of team play too. Hopefully these changes make it a little more balanced.

 

I play a Guardian in mostly tankish spec. My role isn't really to kill anyone but to be a pain in people's sides and protect my healers. At the end of the day I would rather have a long time to kill with PvP being more like a fast chess game than who can spam CCs fastest to stun lock someone to death.

 

Burst damage has gone up faster than health pools and so TTK is already horrible. When you add in lots of CCs to an already unbalanced situation you get what we have now. A game where even a tank spec player (like me) can be burned down inside a single CC.

 

That should NEVER, EVER happen yet it does. I'd hate to be a dps or a healer. It has to be worse for you.

[ObscureKnight]

So what I am seeing is that Bioware never plays the Shadow role. You know taking the healing and armor nerf was bad with 1.3, NOW you made it harder for me to defend my self in pvp since I cant stun from a distance more than 10 meters. SERIOUSLY BW what are you doing? You keep screwing my tank into the ground. In pve I use that ability to stop those attacking my healer (normally form a distance of 15-20 meters), but now you made that harder. I want to talk to a real BW employee that plays a shadow class and tell me what they are thinking? Because I think you guys have lost focus of balanced play for this toon. Also the knock back must remain, because if ANY OF you really played any PVE raids you would know you need that when your heals gets mobbed by adds and you have to run over and defend them while taunts are on CD, Think Kaon on HM.

 

I am serious, I would like to talk to a BW employee about this nerf, whether in game or by email.

 

Same thing goes for my trooper and the cryo grenade. I rely heavily on that in pve, If I have to I will submit tickets until I get a real person on the other side.

Edited September 11, 2012 by ObscureKnight
reserved for rewrite

[Zarannah]

Looks like sorcs and sages get screwed again and you wonder why you lost so many players.a dps sorc/sage should be a glass cannon not just glass at one time it was most popular class. Now we have empty servers. face its so bad now that you going to free to play model. but i really don't think even the free to play people would stay with these changes when first came out it was cool . the changes you have made suck so bad i want to get back every penny i put into this game

[Darth_Philar]

I wasn't really able to read all of that detailed analysis. Single most important thing as far as I can tell is Overload now just casts, and I don't have to wait for the animation. If you're really thinking that hard about the range of Overload... you might be doing it wrong.

 

Add that to improved force speed, and the HUGE buffs to Sorc healers with Fadeout and the new defensive CD heal... any melee want to play hide and go seek?

 

On a serious note though, should benefit chunky DPS classes like marauders in the end, as they should have more heals being thrown around. We'll have to see how it plays for teams once it launches.

 

The question is, why is our delayed ability getting a nerf to effectiveness in order to pay for the reduction in delay time, but JK/SW are not getting a nerf to effectiveness to pay for the reduction in delay time on Smash? In fact, Rage spec is getting a MASSIVE buff to Smash effectiveness.

 

The change to a cone is a nerf to the effectiveness of one of our most important survival tools. The reduction in animation delay not only does not adequately pay off the nerf (meaning the net result is a nerf), but is further shown to be an insult once you consider that the other class that is getting an animation delay reduction is GAINING effectiveness across the board with the changes.

 

There are a few people who believe that these changes to Overload/Force Wave are a net positive gain. Those people are known as Marauders.

[LadyRaven]

As I said in the GD thread...

 

They need to keep pve and pvp seperate. Other MMO's have done this in the past and on older engines not designed with it in mind.

 

Powers should work differently in pvp than they do in pve, duel specs are also needed. If it can't be done right don't do it!

 

Keep the pvp outta my pve please.

 

Blarg this game is going to pot fast.