Developer Update: Class Changes and Balance in Game Update 1.4

[wowmiscott]

And Sages/Sorcerers continue to be the Warlocks of WoW. Very disappointing.

[wowmiscott]

As a Sorc healer, I have to say I HATE the Overload change and feel it is going to affect healer survivability negatively.

 

I primarily use Overload in two situations in PvP.

 

1. I'm getting swarmed and stunned. Foes all around beating me and stunning me, I spam my Overload button til I break free of stun and can get it off. It gives me breathing room and a chance to survive. NOW, in the middle of a group of foes who are beating and stunning my ***, I will need to maneuver around, FACE them, and then hit Overload? The only GOOD news is I won't need to sit on another healer to give them room.

 

2. I'm running like hell with someone beating on my *** (I also do this in PVE). Now I'm going to have to turn around, run MORE SLOWLY backwards and blast them while I continue to take damage.

 

I stuck it out through the Sorc healing nerf; I'll stick it out through this, but damn, healing in PvP pre-50 is rare as hell already; I can't imagine what it will be like after this. (I can't speak much for 50 lately since I haven't been PvPing there the past month or two, but I know we lost quite a few in the "Great Sorc Nerf of 2012").

 

I have to agree... I had a healing sorc and after "Great Sorc Nerf of 2012" I re-spec'd dps because I hated playing him as a healer afterwards.

[seektravota]

what about sage dps? are you guys going to fix it or what? it sucks now. a decent shadow dps can pull 900k in pvp but sage, it's hard to get 700k.

[Sundragon]

what about sage dps? are you guys going to fix it or what? it sucks now. a decent shadow dps can pull 900k in pvp but sage, it's hard to get 700k.

 

You got a free self heal every 30 seconds.

[BaronV]

You got a free self heal every 30 seconds.

 

Do you PLAY sages/sorcs as your main?!

 

The "free self heal" is NOT adequate compensation for this unwanted nerf! Things were fine as they were!!

[ObscureKnight]

Still waiting BW for an answer from a person that plays the classes I listed. I am not joking when I want to know who came up with this new nerf and if they ever play the class at 50 on raids and pvp.

[Sundragon]

Do you PLAY sages/sorcs as your main?!

 

The "free self heal" is NOT adequate compensation for this unwanted nerf! Things were fine as they were!!

 

Yes, I do in fact. Valor rank 100. I cancelled my subscription as a result of these changes. I am just pointing out the "buff" a sage and sorc got in exchange for another round of nerfs. I went from "tolerated" in a RWZ group to "never ever will your class be invited again in our RWZ group" with this patch. Hence the cancelled sub.

[Mharz]

Still waiting BW for an answer from a person that plays the classes I listed. I am not joking when I want to know who came up with this new nerf and if they ever play the class at 50 on raids and pvp.

 

That's not going to happen. I have serious doubts that any of the dev team plays the game at a competitive level. If they did these changes wouldn't be suggested.

 

Bioware devs... care to answer up?

[ahduth]

I play a Guardian in mostly tankish spec. My role isn't really to kill anyone but to be a pain in people's sides and protect my healers. At the end of the day I would rather have a long time to kill with PvP being more like a fast chess game than who can spam CCs fastest to stun lock someone to death.

 

Burst damage has gone up faster than health pools and so TTK is already horrible. When you add in lots of CCs to an already unbalanced situation you get what we have now. A game where even a tank spec player (like me) can be burned down inside a single CC.

 

That should NEVER, EVER happen yet it does. I'd hate to be a dps or a healer. It has to be worse for you.

 

So this chess game comment is spot on. As a sorc healer, I really actually like running around, trying to figure out where I can optimize the heals I'm throwing, figuring out how I can slow the other team up with CC, figuring out what we can do to slam the objective faster. The fact that I play every match with a big target marker over my head is fine... but it does mean I like having mechanisms that help me deal with the fact I'm always being chased.

 

But again the chess comment makes me think we're both on the same page. In the end I just want to have a bit of time to run around and do my thing, before I get sent back to the previous century by a rage spec jugg lol.

[ahduth]

Yes, I do in fact. Valor rank 100. I cancelled my subscription as a result of these changes. I am just pointing out the "buff" a sage and sorc got in exchange for another round of nerfs. I went from "tolerated" in a RWZ group to "never ever will your class be invited again in our RWZ group" with this patch. Hence the cancelled sub.

 

As far as sorc DPS goes... yeah. They made some changes to the lightning tree, but from a heals standpoint, everytime I see one of you guys, I have to make an unfortunate decision about whether or not you're worth it. If I heal you up, then some crazy melee spec comes around the corner right after that... did I waste my heals on you? I'd really rather not have to answer that. I don't really want to be the guy deciding who on our team has to live in the spawn point the entire match.

[Mharz]

So this chess game comment is spot on. As a sorc healer, I really actually like running around, trying to figure out where I can optimize the heals I'm throwing, figuring out how I can slow the other team up with CC, figuring out what we can do to slam the objective faster. The fact that I play every match with a big target marker over my head is fine... but it does mean I like having mechanisms that help me deal with the fact I'm always being chased.

 

While you're doing that you're having fun.

 

When you get CCd and burned down inside one stun, unable to do anything you're not having fun.

 

Bioware devs don't get this.

 

And yeah I think you and I (as well as a LOT of current and former players) are on the same page. Now the trick is to get Bioware to the same page. That's gonna be a lot harder.

[BaronV]

Yes, I do in fact. Valor rank 100. I cancelled my subscription as a result of these changes. I am just pointing out the "buff" a sage and sorc got in exchange for another round of nerfs. I went from "tolerated" in a RWZ group to "never ever will your class be invited again in our RWZ group" with this patch. Hence the cancelled sub.

 

thanks for clearing that up. Would have helped to understand the tone of your post if you ended with a /sarcasm or something similar

 

I feel your disappointment. I too dont know how much more I can take before I take the plunge and unsub...

[Makais]

So what I am seeing is that Bioware never plays the Shadow role. You know taking the healing and armor nerf was bad with 1.3, NOW you made it harder for me to defend my self in pvp since I cant stun from a distance more than 10 meters. SERIOUSLY BW what are you doing? You keep screwing my tank into the ground. In pve I use that ability to stop those attacking my healer (normally form a distance of 15-20 meters), but now you made that harder. I want to talk to a real BW employee that plays a shadow class and tell me what they are thinking? Because I think you guys have lost focus of balanced play for this toon. Also the knock back must remain, because if ANY OF you really played any PVE raids you would know you need that when your heals gets mobbed by adds and you have to run over and defend them while taunts are on CD, Think Kaon on HM.

 

I am serious, I would like to talk to a BW employee about this nerf, whether in game or by email.

 

So would I... Since I don't have my hopes high on that, I cancelled my subscription and haven´t logged in since...

 

Go Go bioware! On your way to success!

[Darth_Philar]

thanks for clearing that up. Would have helped to understand the tone of your post if you ended with a /sarcasm or something similar

 

I feel your disappointment. I too dont know how much more I can take before I take the plunge and unsub...

 

To be fair though, I've read every single post that references the self heal as being compensation for the nerfs/changes in a completely facetious tone in my head, primarily because that is how all sane people would perceive such a statement.

 

I wanted to put a smiley to indicate the degree of sardonism I'm trying to relay, but they don't have one for "felt a great disturbance in the force, as if thousands of Sages and Sorcerers all cried out at once and then were silenced".

[NoaFlux]

Quote: Originally Posted by ObscureKnight

So what I am seeing is that Bioware never plays the Shadow role. You know taking the healing and armor nerf was bad with 1.3, NOW you made it harder for me to defend my self in pvp since I cant stun from a distance more than 10 meters. SERIOUSLY BW what are you doing? You keep screwing my tank into the ground. In pve I use that ability to stop those attacking my healer (normally form a distance of 15-20 meters), but now you made that harder. I want to talk to a real BW employee that plays a shadow class and tell me what they are thinking? Because I think you guys have lost focus of balanced play for this toon. Also the knock back must remain, because if ANY OF you really played any PVE raids you would know you need that when your heals gets mobbed by adds and you have to run over and defend them while taunts are on CD, Think Kaon on HM.

 

I am serious, I would like to talk to a BW employee about this nerf, whether in game or by email.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been called a blog "spammer" many times. Mostly for my recent posts about what you are talking about above. But I post because it's annoying and makes me angry. I feel your pain. I am a Shadow tank as well. It does seem like they have a reasonable methodology about why they moved things around, in turn, trying to be fair to Shadows and at the same time balancing the game.

 

But I agree with you. I'm not a fan of this. And in some ways it's a nerf, and other ways it's not. I have posted about this at least 4 times and created 2 polls. Overall I feel like it's a nerf. Mostly because I already have to guard etc. on top baby sitting the whole team...this just adds more work for me, and I still have a lot to learn. We don't have to get into it though. But I will say making a more focused Force Wave is a great idea but changing the ability around completely....eeeh.

 

Nothing will take away the permanent shock I felt when I heard they decided to change an ability I never heard a complaint about. I still think they could have made smarter decisions (see my other posts for all the other options for Force Wave/Overload).

 

It's just how they went about it that's not good. When you company is struggling as is, you really need to take the time..to show customers you are trying, and involve them in building a better game. Also when "nerfology" is the going Dev CC it's not smart to change 3 abilities etc. around for a character all at once like they did for us...and if they do it...it should be done like I sate in the next paragraph.

 

They should have released some polls asking if people thought one ability nerf was a fair exchange for the other and listed many options for us to choose from. At least, even if we didn't like it, it would show us that they are truely trying to work with us and build a long standing game.

 

When they perform these radical changes, like 1.4 seems to be, it makes Bio Ware come across like a T.V. preacher performing great miracles rather then a company who's building a strong and real Church. In this case it's a video game company. Either way these are one in the same.

Edited September 11, 2012 by NoaFlux

[Macheath]

While you're doing that you're having fun.

 

When you get CCd and burned down inside one stun, unable to do anything you're not having fun.

 

Bioware devs don't get this.

 

And yeah I think you and I (as well as a LOT of current and former players) are on the same page. Now the trick is to get Bioware to the same page. That's gonna be a lot harder.

 

BioWare was on the same page... once. Years ago, talking about the combat in TOR, they were talking about these very issues; how they wanted to keep damage and life scaling at the same rate so players couldn't be killed in only a couple of seconds... how they disliked stuns and other mechanics that forced you to completely lose control of your character, because you aren't having fun when you can't take any actions... etc.

 

There was a time when BioWare "got it," or at least knew how to talk the talk. Too bad they have no idea how to make those things a reality.

 

Instead of reducing the effectiveness of resolve so that unstoppable classes become "more stoppable", they need the exact opposite approach (yes, I'm calling for nerfs *gasp*.) Nerf the abilities that make those other classes unstoppable in PvP (things like movement enhancing abilities can be nerfed for PvP purposes without having a huge negative impact on PvE, since mobs don't move around much, which SHOULD make them prime targets when nerfs/buffs need to be handed out in the interest of class balance.) Then, nerf CC. All CC. Screw resolve, just make any stun or knockback used grant CC immunity for a few seconds after that stun/knockdown wears off. Simple and effective. Tabula Rasa took this approach, and while the game itself crashed and burned, no one complained about being stun-locked to death in PvP, because it just didn't happen.

 

-Macheath.

[Tuscad]

Why don't you just save this garbage change for F2P like you are with everything else? If you do save it until F2P won't affect me because I'll be unsubbed as oppossed to now when it will affect me.

[ObscureKnight]

When they perform these radical changes, like 1.4 seems to be, it makes Bio Ware come across like a T.V. preacher performing great miracles rather then a company who's building a strong and real Church. In this case it's a video game company. Either way these are one in the same.

 

 

Hahahhahahahahahahahaha now that is funny. I agree, after playing raids and who knows how many HM FP's I can safely say that as a tank the vanguard is better than the shadow as it is. I have both now, and the under geared Vanguard who I am still grinding out has a better overall ability to hit NPC's and people to keep aggro, But to take away one of the few items a shadow has to pull on people with out having to drop where he is and run over there, is retarded. I mean what good is my tank who has to get with in 10 meters already to hit anything? All I will have now is taunts. and when on CD and I have a healer who gets picked up by adds, lets hope I can make it to them before we both get killed. Again Kaon under seige is the perfect example of mass hordes that a tank has to keep off of the group. They come so fast that I use every ability in my rotation to protect the group.

 

As for resolve, it is a joke. I run out in WH gear, and I get CC'ed and burned to the ground before it kicks in. with 23k HP I think that is rather retarded.

Edited September 11, 2012 by ObscureKnight

[FreiaFett]

thanks for clearing that up. Would have helped to understand the tone of your post if you ended with a /sarcasm or something similar

 

I feel your disappointment. I too dont know how much more I can take before I take the plunge and unsub...

 

I play a sorc healer, and my husband plays a Tank Assassin, and we both unsubbed yesterday. Greatest feeling ever. It was like breaking up with a bad boyfriend. Take the plunge. You'll feel great.

 

Why continue to pay for a crappy product that is only getting crappier? If they completely revamped everything in this game, fired a whole new set of developers, and made classes balanced I might consider playing it again. Until then, I'm playing games where the devs actually give a crap about their product and the community.

 

P.S. Like many others, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY love to know if any of the developers play a Sorc (heals and dps) in PVE and PVP.

[Sundragon]

I play a sorc healer, and my husband plays a Tank Assassin, and we both unsubbed yesterday. Greatest feeling ever. It was like breaking up with a bad boyfriend. Take the plunge. You'll feel great.

 

Why continue to pay for a crappy product that is only getting crappier? If they completely revamped everything in this game, fired a whole new set of developers, and made classes balanced I might consider playing it again. Until then, I'm playing games where the devs actually give a crap about their product and the community.

 

P.S. Like many others, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY love to know if any of the developers play a Sorc (heals and dps) in PVE and PVP.

 

Yep, same feeling when I did it but I still WANT to play this game, but I refuse to let my dissatisfaction over another round of Sorc DPS nerfs go without notice. I had to unsub, in the remote hope that maybe they might change their minds. Without the heavy armor and front-loaded DPS, a DPS sorc (and heal sorc) has to rely on crowd control in order to survive. Mez, stun, knockback, force speed; I spec'd for all of them because it was the only thing that kept my DPS sorc alive, yet I still was unwanted in a RWZ group because EVERYONE BUT BIOWARE knows a Powertech, Marauder or Sniper are better at DPS. I was told once 1.4 went live my DPS sorc would no longer be invited to RWZ because of the nerfs to the class. The self heal is worthless when a team wants a DPS player.

 

Furthermore, they don't want sorc healers anymore because they just lost even more survivability, so they are going to be spending more time healing themselves than the group. Hence, only Merc and Operative healers are wanted for RWZ......I have an operative healer and it's stupid easy mode to put up 800k healing in a RWZ without a guard. Play a sorc healer and it requires a guard, plus you run out of force power all the time and you have very little survivability (especially post 1.4). With the ability to stun lock an opponent even more easy, anyone in light armor is an easy kill, especially when they can't do a 360-degree knockback.

[BaronV]

 

I wanted to put a smiley to indicate the degree of sardonism I'm trying to relay, but they don't have one for "felt a great disturbance in the force, as if thousands of Sages and Sorcerers all cried out at once and then were silenced".

 

OMG This Quote is GOLDEN!!

[Talimar]

I for one love being stunned for 8 seconds! How can anyone not love sitting their watching your character being killed over 8 gloriously long seconds while you're unable to do anything else? My god, you people have no sense of fun!

 

I play this game purely to do nothing but watch as other people kill me while I can't do anything about it. I don't enjoy it when I actually have to do something.

[Mharz]

I for one love being stunned for 8 seconds! How can anyone not love sitting their watching your character being killed over 8 gloriously long seconds while you're unable to do anything else? My god, you people have no sense of fun!

 

I play this game purely to do nothing but watch as other people kill me while I can't do anything about it. I don't enjoy it when I actually have to do something.

 

Quoted for the truth.

 

BIOWARE WAKE UP!!

 

I can save your game if you hire me and I'll work for free.

[DeltaCharlieTwo]

I can live with the distance changes. The anemic heal provided and the shorter cooldown on run will help (though I fail to see the logic in claiming that "running" when surrounded is now our best defense...ok, perhaps not claiming that but it does look like its being promoted that way, no root and all), but in the end the base mechanic still fails to consider the plight of a solo PVE player.

 

Sorcs are squishy. They need something to knock off those mobs so they can quickly cast a heal or bubble without knockback. Even a slight knockback will prevent the spell from firing on time, and this happens ALL THE TIME for me in PVE. Not sure if it happens to anyone else.

 

Essentially the changes will help with single mob boss battles when I cant shake agro, but my option now is to run from the fight instead of trying to make a stand.

 

 

I've had that sort of thing happen to me, cept as a Sage. but it's what worries me the most for the same reasons, the way I think they want it to be used with this new "cone" is push them away and run out the opening. but I prefer standing my ground, it makes me feel more heroic than "fighting to run away."

[ahduth]

I've had that sort of thing happen to me, cept as a Sage. but it's what worries me the most for the same reasons, the way I think they want it to be used with this new "cone" is push them away and run out the opening. but I prefer standing my ground, it makes me feel more heroic than "fighting to run away."

 

Sounds like I'm the only one who's even a little excited for the change lol. I was trying to conceive of some scenarios where you use it in an "offensive" rather than defensive method.

 

This is a PVP example, but imagine in Voidstar, all eight of them are attacking your door. Use the cone to forcibly shove all of them into the corner (interrupting whatever they're doing), then drop deathfield, stun their healer, throw some heals, throw dots... you get my drift. Maybe a PVE example is the minefield trash mobs in Denova - you could shove them all away, then people could throw AOE, CC, or whatever the game plan is from there.

 

I'm hoping it operates a bit like that force push thing (not sure of the name) that juggs do to force you to the ground. It interrupts what you're doing, and gives the jugg distance to do their leap or smash or whatever. This sounds like it could potentially be a bigger and nastier version of that. I may be overestimating it's potential in that respect however, as I haven't played it on the PTS.

 

As a sorcerer, I'm absolutely not questioning the defensive utility of the current overload formulation - I'm just not sure this new one doesn't have some fun uses that could be pretty crazy, even in PVE.