PVP: Immortal/Vegence hybrid -- How's the DPS?

[Blasphemerr]

Regarding this spec or similar (please post) : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GrhbzzMZfRr0rhzzM.2

 

I am curious how much PVP-DPS this spec is actually capable of outputting. I've ran it a few times with little DPS success and when strolling these forms I find many claim that the above spec is actually good dps; completely contrary to my experiences.

[MystbladeWA]

I have never found it to be "good" DPS but i also have never expected it to be so.

 

The primary purpose of this build is support. Peeling dps of your healers (slow's, chokes), cc'ing casters and enemy healers (leap, interupt), guarding healers and dps and thirdly (when appropriate) contributing what dps you do have to taking down priority targets.

[Blasphemerr]

I have never found it to be "good" DPS but i also have never expected it to be so.

 

The primary purpose of this build is support. Peeling dps of your healers (slow's, chokes), cc'ing casters and enemy healers (leap, interupt), guarding healers and dps and thirdly (when appropriate) contributing what dps you do have to taking down priority targets.

 

I too never expected it to be good DPS I was mostly curious as to why to many people cite Immortal/Venge as a DPS spec when in reality I'm pretty sure 29/12/0 would do about the same damage maybe more due to the slighty-increased rage generation.

[wadecounty]

The big difference is the hybrid has reliable burst (the hybrid you posted is wrong, in PvP you take Force Rush (I forget what the Jugg version's called) instead of Sonic Barrier). And burst is king in PvP.

 

Sure, you'll generate more Rage over a long fight in a full Immortal spec, but fights in PvP generally don't last that long. On top of that, people often don't even attack the tank, meaning you won't benefit at all from some of the Immortal rage boosting talents.

 

On the other hand, having Force Rush gets you just about auto crits on Force Screams and Vicious Throws, meaning (with DPS gear) 3k+ damage on Screams and 4k+ damage on Vicious Throws. Not to mention the move you're using to proc those crits, Impale, is a very good attack itself, and has the potential for big burst via Pooled Hatred.

 

Lastly, its generally a good idea to pick up Shien with the hybrid for those times where killing the enemy is more important than staying alive yourself (like offense on Voidstar). Staying in the Immortal tree does not offer that kind of flexibility.

 

The only real advantage to Immortal in PvP is superior control of the enemy.

[Blasphemerr]

The big difference is the hybrid has reliable burst (the hybrid you posted is wrong, in PvP you take Force Rush (I forget what the Jugg version's called) instead of Sonic Barrier). And burst is king in PvP.

 

Sure, you'll generate more Rage over a long fight in a full Immortal spec, but fights in PvP generally don't last that long. On top of that, people often don't even attack the tank, meaning you won't benefit at all from some of the Immortal rage boosting talents.

 

On the other hand, having Force Rush gets you just about auto crits on Force Screams and Vicious Throws, meaning (with DPS gear) 3k+ damage on Screams and 4k+ damage on Vicious Throws. Not to mention the move you're using to proc those crits, Impale, is a very good attack itself, and has the potential for big burst via Pooled Hatred.

 

Lastly, its generally a good idea to pick up Shien with the hybrid for those times where killing the enemy is more important than staying alive yourself (like offense on Voidstar). Staying in the Immortal tree does not offer that kind of flexibility.

 

The only real advantage to Immortal in PvP is superior control of the enemy.

 

Can you link the hybrid spec that you're referencing.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Blasphemerr

[Reli_BOON]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101Grhbz0MZforkrhdzz.2

somthing like that.

[TheSolidPat]

Regarding this spec or similar (please post) : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GrhbzzMZfRr0rhzzM.2

 

I am curious how much PVP-DPS this spec is actually capable of outputting. I've ran it a few times with little DPS success and when strolling these forms I find many claim that the above spec is actually good dps; completely contrary to my experiences.

 

This is a tanking spec, it is not a DPS spec. It is better than the Full immortal spec in PVP and PVE. But if you use this spec in a WZ it is definitely not to kill people. It will be to carry the ball in huttball or to guard nodes and healers.

[Blasphemerr]

Pretty much my assessment; other people seem to expect tanksin/shieldtech levels of damage for whatever reason from our hybrid spec.

[Skullbash]

Yeah, I tried that build as well and I didn't find the damage to be what people made it out to be so I rolled this and I like it better: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101Rrh0zZfMrorhdzGZM.2

 

The reset on ravage helps your damage alot, but you should switch to shien when you need higher damage.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Skullbash

[Nomerath]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101RrhbzZfMrRMhdkMZ0M.2

 

Build I roll with together with mixed dps/tank gear. Survivability is awesome and I can dish out enough dps when needed.

[carlosg]

With this spec, your damage is situational. I find myself doing 4k vicious throws on some people when they are low and interrupting a healer when he is close to dying and then aiding to get him down a lot. But I rarely go on to a target that is high on health and then DPS him down until I kill him, it happens in regular warzones when I meet undergeared people, but never in ranked, this is simply not why this spec was designed for. If you focus too muchg on DPS, you outrange your healers, make your guard useless, don't peel anybody out of them, don't taunt the top DPS. There are a lot of things you end up sacrificing if you focus on damage when playing with this build, you will be just denying our purpose which is CC, Guard, Peel etc. So I wouldn't worry too much about damage, I try to avarage 200 - 250K but this is not always possible. Edited September 14, 2012 by carlosg

[CBRGhostRider]

This is a tanking spec, it is not a DPS spec. It is better than the Full immortal spec in PVP and PVE. But if you use this spec in a WZ it is definitely not to kill people. It will be to carry the ball in huttball or to guard nodes and healers.

 

^^^ what he said.

 

My spec is almost exactly like OPs original spec, but I take the 1 point out of accuracy and put it in shien. That way I can up my dps by just a little bit when we need to take down those last 1 or 2 enemies at a voidstar door, by changing stance. However even so, the hybrid spec has crap dps.

 

Make no mistake tho, its purpose is not dps, its purpose is to make you tanky as hell, and a boon to your healer. You can hit 300k+ protection routinely, and 450+ when things go well. You also have many cooldown, which if you rotate well, will make you very hard to take down under focus fire (huttball).

 

EDIT: I'm assuming you play in tank gear as well (and pick up the 2 piece vindicator armoring for the intercede heal).

Edited September 14, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[carlosg]

EDIT: I'm assuming you play in tank gear as well (and pick up the 2 piece vindicator armoring for the intercede heal).

 

DOn't do this, tank gear is worthless. Get the full vindicator set and augment with 18 Endurance 12 Power, you will do a lot more damage and tank the same.

[CBRGhostRider]

DOn't do this, tank gear is worthless. Get the full vindicator set and augment with 18 Endurance 12 Power, you will do a lot more damage and tank the same.

 

I beg to differ. If you want to fulfill a tanking role in pvp, then tank gear is an ABSOLUTE MUST. However, grind out 2 vindicator pieces for the armoring only, since that will give you the intercede heal bonus from the set. I do agree about the endurance augments though, because endure pain, wz medpack, and intercede heal, and enraged defense HoTs all base off of max hp. And yes, unfortunately, shield/defense only accounts for so much.

 

Yellow damage bypasses both defense and shield. However, there are classes and ACs that deal a lot of white damage (marksmen, carnage, etc). Other classes that deal mostly yellow damage, deal white damage as well in retarded amounts (e.g. rail shot for powertechs).

 

Trust me, if you have a semi-competent team focussing on you and the healer, you will see a noticeable difference in lifetime from using tank vs. dps gear on yourself.

 

If you want to guard a healer properly and have both of you live to tell the story you absolutely must have tank gear. I couldn't care less about dps on my tank toon... as long as my healer lives and I play for objectives I've fulfilled my job.

Edited September 15, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[UncleOst]

Things been buggy for me post 1.4.

Seems everytime I log on I'm in the Drummond kaas spaceport connected to the fleet...regardless where I log off. Ridiculous.

 

Anyways the upside to this has been logging on to see people duelling.

 

Now most the jugs I've seen there are accomplished well geared players. They are running hybrids of immortal with some vengeance. Now from what I've seen compared to my rage spec ( my gear is pretty good but still needs work), is this:

- rank 4 shockwave smashes hitting for 2 - 2.5k. Now when I see my hardest hitting attack get shat on...I start to worry.

 

-unstoppable providing additional mitigation/cc immunity. Totally nasty.

 

- unchanneled force choke while getting yer arse "ravaged"

 

- force scream crit and a viscious throw crit...end result is getting 4-shotted by a tank hybrid in dps gear.

 

I like the aoe burst in warzones. It definately has its place.

But for solo que action, I've become quite intrigued by this hybrid style of play.

 

There are too many defensive kooldowns that good players know how to use against shi-cho form.

 

Man I tell ya the immortal/vengeance hybrid sure tweaked my interest. Once again however the devastation came from the jugs who had insanely powerful gear.

 

I'ma checkadis out.

[BobSassafrass]

I rerolled my jugg on another server, now that the servers merged I have two 50 juggs. So the one with mostly battlemaster and some champion gear (you can tell how long its been since I played him) I went ahead and made a hybrid spec. Here si the spec, http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101RrGzzZsMrMrhzzMZMM.2. It's a bit funky but I wanted to make sure I could put some good pressure on healers rather than just survive.

 

After playing a full veng jugg for so long the increase in survivability with immortal, soresu form, increased defense are amazing. Best I've done so far is 180k dmg and 120k protection. Not much but this is just pugs. The damage is actually very decent with full dps gear, just enough to put pressure on a healer, but not enough to kill a good healer by yourself. But I must say I can go against full war hero augmented players in this spec and survive, most of the time killing them. The increased survival time just opens up so many more options for play.

[Robpwnz]

I rerolled my jugg on another server, now that the servers merged I have two 50 juggs. So the one with mostly battlemaster and some champion gear (you can tell how long its been since I played him) I went ahead and made a hybrid spec. Here si the spec, http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101RrGzzZsMrMrhzzMZMM.2. It's a bit funky but I wanted to make sure I could put some good pressure on healers rather than just survive.

 

After playing a full veng jugg for so long the increase in survivability with immortal, soresu form, increased defense are amazing. Best I've done so far is 180k dmg and 120k protection. Not much but this is just pugs. The damage is actually very decent with full dps gear, just enough to put pressure on a healer, but not enough to kill a good healer by yourself. But I must say I can go against full war hero augmented players in this spec and survive, most of the time killing them. The increased survival time just opens up so many more options for play.

 

One of the things I like about the vengence/immortal is that you can swap 4 or so points around depending on your playstyle. Whether it be rwz, pugs, a little more dps on your smash, savagery, boosting your ravage etc.

 

But imo you're better off taking a point out of draining scream and adding it into stagger for the extra root. Draining scream is kinda worthless.

Also I dont know how often you use retaliation. But I ran a dps log on ~ 10 wz's and I found out I only use it maybe 4 times a match. So I swapped those points elsewhere. Up to you though!

Edited October 10, 2012 by Robpwnz

[Banivisa]

Regarding this spec or similar (please post) : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GrhbzzMZfRr0rhzzM.2

 

I am curious how much PVP-DPS this spec is actually capable of outputting. I've ran it a few times with little DPS success and when strolling these forms I find many claim that the above spec is actually good dps; completely contrary to my experiences.

 

I've been running hybrid since early January, so there isn't many that have running it as long as me left in the game. While my build is close to the build you have posted it's not the same.

 

The problem with the question asked is that it's a hybrid build so your numbers will vary greatly depending on what you're doing. If I just plain dps I'll hit 300k+ dmg all day long, If I just tank I'll gain 300k protection all day long. If I play balanced like I normally do 200-250k damage with 200-250k protection are normal. That's the power of the build it's balance and ability to adapt to whatever you want to do with it.

[UncleOst]

DOn't do this, tank gear is worthless. Get the full vindicator set and augment with 18 Endurance 12 Power, you will do a lot more damage and tank the same.

 

The good shien/soresu hybrids all have dps gear... the kind you want for shi-cho.

The dps they throw out is sick.

 

The purpose for the hybrid IMO is obvious...enhanced survivability.

You lose burst but still hit like a "peterbuilt in mexican overdrive".

[CBRGhostRider]

The good shien/soresu hybrids all have dps gear... the kind you want for shi-cho.

The dps they throw out is sick.

 

The purpose for the hybrid IMO is obvious...enhanced survivability.

You lose burst but still hit like a "peterbuilt in mexican overdrive".

 

Actually the hybrid juggernaut (18/23) is the most tankiest pvp character you can make. You want sick dps, go rage. Or vengeance for decent dps and more survivability than rage. IMO the only reason to go hybrid (18/23) is to tank in pvp, and believe me, you do NOT want to tank in dps gear.

[carlosg]

IMO the only reason to go hybrid (18/23) is to tank in pvp, and believe me, you do NOT want to tank in dps gear.

 

The first sentence is correct, this build is only to tank. And that is what I do, in full DPS gear with Fortitude augments, in Ranked, and I do just fine. During several games I go without any deaths while guarding my healers, doing great protection and damage (numbers vary depending on match length, warzone played etc). I am a ball carrier in Huttball, I can survive for a loooong time with someone healing me and cleaver use of my cooldowns, the only tanking gear I have are the main hand and off hand. Even without healers I don't feel squishy at all.

 

The defense/ absorption/ shield rating you get from tanking gear doesn't really make that much of a difference in your survivability, but with the DPS gear the extra damage you can add when assisting to burst down people that are low or healers your DPS is focusing does make a lot of difference. The entire War Leader set gives you only 400 extra health, that is nothing, with my gear I sit at 22.5 and I am just fine with it, it is plenty of health if used well. I don't think you need tanking gear for tanking as a Jugg in PvP at all.

 

Obviously, it comes to play style too. I personally think it is a waste of the class potential to go full tank, accumulate defensive stats only and then play full defensive. I have a "switch style" and a priority list when I play, I keep going offense and defense during the match depending on what is going on, and I am glad I have the extra power/ surge when I start attacking. Even in ranked, if your team plays well there will be situations when your healers will be able to kite for a few seconds, get away from DPS aim and avoid the focus on them, this is when you assist your DPS and interrupt/ CC the healers, helping DPSing them down, the DPS set will give you a substantial advantage in that.

 

In summary: DPS set does not prevent me from guarding well and surviving as a tank should, DPS set does not prevent me from peeling off the DPS on my healers just as efficiently as any other tank, DPS set does nto prevent me from CCing well with Chilling Scream Intimidating Roar, Force Push, Force Choke. DPS set DOES enable me to put some pressure on healers, evewn geared ones, if I interrupt them at the right times.

Edited October 18, 2012 by carlosg

[UncleOst]

Actually the hybrid juggernaut (18/23) is the most tankiest pvp character you can make. You want sick dps, go rage. Or vengeance for decent dps and more survivability than rage. IMO the only reason to go hybrid (18/23) is to tank in pvp, and believe me, you do NOT want to tank in dps gear.

 

Nah nah... I'm not talking about focusing as a tank I'm talking about the shien/soresu hybrids that use yer spec with full dps gear for survivability foremost, but the ultimate goal IS to dps.

 

Scenario with a hybrid charging in:

 

- unstoppable grants 20 percent mitigation and 4 seconds to dps freely/debuff.

- warzone adrenal grants 15 percent mitigation.

- if hybrid is really worried he can pop invincible, grants 40 percent mitigation.

- last/first resort would of course be sabre ward 25 percent mitigation( with possible dodge/parry chance).

 

Now it's clear to see the obvious defensive capabilities here. The only way to become tougher is of course max yer HP and defence chance. I couldnt count how many times my railshot was " dodged ".... but... The beauty to strive for is total and complete dps gear.

I've seen hybrids with almost 1100 base damage, 600 bonus damage!!!

When you couple that gear with the hybrid defensive abilities you truly become "unstoppable"

Of course you won't see 6k smash crits but I've seen these hybrids hit HARD.

C'mon... 3.5k force scream, 4.5k vicious throw in 3 seconds..."what's not to love"?

Don't exclude what ravage can do while yer force choke keeps yer target in place lol.

Combine all of this with the knowledge that most smashes will only tickle you.

 

End result is patience winning the fight. With the craploads of burst in this game, sometimes avoiding it and knowing when to strike back prevail.

[carlosg]

- unstoppable grants 20 percent mitigation and 4 seconds to dps freely/debuff.

- warzone adrenal grants 15 percent mitigation.

- if hybrid is really worried he can pop invincible, grants 40 percent mitigation.

- last/first resort would of course be sabre ward 25 percent mitigation( with possible dodge/parry chance).

 

Don't forget enraged defense, with deafening defense making it reduce 15% of the damage you take and it's short 1 minute cooldown I abuse the sh@# out of it

Edited October 19, 2012 by carlosg