Hey, I had been following this thread for the past week but did not have the time to reply. I just wanted to give my opinion here. I have read many interesting ideas in various posts from different people. However, there is not ONE best way to play Juggs. All the recommendations can be as contradicting as optimal in every situation. Follow your style and what your team needs you to do. Juggs are great target callers, since we can leap everywhere and most importantly we can set our Shockwaves before calling our targets. Personally I was always more of a single target guy even with my Rage jugg. Hitting 3 people in ranked is not as good as hitting THE single designated target. Trust me when I say a properly geared healer will have no problem healing your 3 smashed targets. My operative even used to DPS in mid fights because he was topping everyone so fast. As for push.. I would try to avoid using it in a standard rotation in a ranked or serious game. An ideal way to use that ability is in Alderaan civil war when both teams are fighting for the middle node. I have seen games where the middle node was never taken in ranked. The key here is to use push offensively to force the battle towards where the enemies spawn. Their healers usually stand in the back, by charging to them and pushing them even further, you are challenging their team for control of the middle. And if i am 1v1 vs their healer back there he will die, so they send peelers. So with 1 push you just neutralized 2+ of their players and moved the fight far enough for your team to be in a better position to cap mid. But never do this without telling your teammates in vent. Your healers need to be aware of where you are and need to move in range to heal you.

Yes sorry if i was not clear. I don't count smashes without 4 stacks of shockwave as a possibility. Beside needing to stop an enemy from capping something, you should never use smash without 4 stacks of shockwave

No crush: Choke + enrage = 2 Smashes per minute With crush: Choke + enrage + crush 3x) = 5 smashes per minute

I suggest you read my guide: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=524920 It tells you everything you need on how to play rage in PVP and dominate. I was in the best PVP guild on the server when I left, and this spec & gear setups dominates both unrated and rated.

An assassin made me do the calculations in the past. Since I don't play anymore, I cannot finish the calculations. If you are able to follow my last 5 directions, we can probably complete it. In order to properly test your idea, I decided to apply what you are proposing to my optimized PVP profile on my Juggernaut since I understand my class and not yours. I have included all my calculations, so you should be able to do the same for your class. My character was a Rage DPS Jugg. Here are the results: Initial remodded PVP gear with custom build Belt and Bracers: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...a-2d7fd8025578 Same profile but with the Black Hole off hand: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...8-6ef1f89cd47e Total change in Primary and Secondary stats as we substituted the War Hero off hand by the Black Hole off hand: Strength: +8 Endurance: +33 Expertise: -113 Accuracy: +4 Force Power: Same Critical rating: - 55 Power: +84 Total change in ability stats: Melee Damage Primary MIN: 947.6 to 969.7 = Delta of +2.33% Melee Damage Primary MAX: 1109.6 to 1131.7 = Delta of +1.99% Melee Bonus Damage: 623.6 to 645.7 = Delta of +3.54% Melee Critical Chance: 24.89% to 22.55% = Delta of -2.34% Force Bonus Damage: 1023.2 to 1046.7 = Delta of +2.30% Force Critical Chance: 32.06% to 29.72% = Delta of -2.34% Health: 18973.4 to 19323.3 = Delta of +1.84% PVP Damage Boost: 22.88% to 21.28% = Delta of -1.60% PVP Damage Reduction: 18.62% to 17.55% = Delta of -1.07% PVP Heal Boost: 12.65% to 11.74% = Delta of 0.91% Delta calculations: Deltas from data in raw numbers were obtained with the following formula: ( (Value(t=1) / Value (t=0)) – 1 ) * 100 This means that your ability at t=1 will do X% more damage than the same ability at t=0 so this becomes comparable with our % based values. Deltas from data already in % were simply subtracted: Value(t=1) – Value(t=0) Now let’s analyze our data: Added HP vs Expertise bonus: My HP went up by 350 (1.84%) but I lost a total damage reduction of 1.07%. The added HP helps in neutralizing burst damage since you can withstand a target switch for a longer period of time. However, in a sustained damage fight, the damage reduction will be more beneficial to you and your healers. But using the HP increase of 350 on my total HP is not accurate either. I prefer to use an average of my in-game battle HP which is obtained by taking your entire damage taken at the end of a Warzone and dividing it by your number of deaths + 1. This number will look more like 50k for example. Adding 350 HP on 50k suddenly looks very slim. My conclusion on this: I would say the total damage reduction is better, so the War Hero off hand is better. Added Power vs loss in crit: This is an easy one. Rage Juggs thrive on Power at the expense of Crit since we have auto crits on Smash. My conclusion on this: The Black Hole off hand is better. Added damage vs loss in PVP damage boost: Given the numbers listed above, the Black Hole off hand seems to provide an increase in Force and Melee damage superior to the loss of 1.60% in PVP Damage. The loss in PVP damage means that every ability will do 1.60% damage less off the total damage done by the ability. The melee and force damage data listed above represent modifiers. So they cannot be compared directly to the 1.60%. For instance, the +2.30% increase in Force bonus damage is not 100% of my smash damage. So there is an added coefficient for every ability in the game. Let’s say my Smash does 1000 baseline and then you add 1046.7 bonus damage for a total of 2046.7, our coefficient will be 0.5114. Then we multiply our 0.5114 by the 2.30% increase we get : 1.176% which is inferior to our 1.60% from the expertise. This would mean it is not worth it. My conclusion: I cannot draw a conclusion based on the damage variation. I would still need to have access to the game. That is a calculation you can easily do if you are up for it: 1: Log in game and equip your War Hero off hand fully augmented 2: Note the tooltip min and max damage of your top 3 Force abilities and top 3 Melee abilities 3: Equip your Black Hole off hand fully augmented 4: Note the new tooltip min and max damage of your top 3 Force abilities and top 3 Melee abilities 5: Come post them here on the forum and we will go from there.

It is only Smahs that is 100% crit. What happens is that every time you use charge (15 sec Cooldown) or Obliterate (16 secs cooldown) you will get a buff that last 15-20 seconds that will make your next Smash 100% crit. So obviously you never smash without that buff. Also you need to make sure you have 4 stacks of shockwave before you smash. To build shockwave you can use: Enrage = 60 secs cooldown Choke = 60 sec cooldown Crush = 18 sec cooldown. This is our main shockwave builder

That depends on the Spec. As a vengeance jugg I recommend 30% crit unbuffed. However as a Rage Jugg, 60% of my damage already auto crits, so adding power is better than adding crit on gear.

In order to properly test your idea, I decided to apply what you are proposing to my optimized PVP profile on my Juggernaut since I understand my class and not yours. I have included all my calculations, so you should be able to do the same for your class. My character was a Rage DPS Jugg. Here are the results: Initial remodded PVP gear with custom build Belt and Bracers: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/45beb788-5a88-4da2-917a-2d7fd8025578 Same profile but with the Black Hole off hand: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/cb350331-dc9a-4f9d-ba48-6ef1f89cd47e Total change in Primary and Secondary stats as we substituted the War Hero off hand by the Black Hole off hand: Strength: +8 Endurance: +33 Expertise: -113 Accuracy: +4 Force Power: Same Critical rating: - 55 Power: +84 Total change in ability stats: Melee Damage Primary MIN: 947.6 to 969.7 = Delta of +2.33% Melee Damage Primary MAX: 1109.6 to 1131.7 = Delta of +1.99% Melee Bonus Damage: 623.6 to 645.7 = Delta of +3.54% Melee Critical Chance: 24.89% to 22.55% = Delta of -2.34% Force Bonus Damage: 1023.2 to 1046.7 = Delta of +2.30% Force Critical Chance: 32.06% to 29.72% = Delta of -2.34% Health: 18973.4 to 19323.3 = Delta of +1.84% PVP Damage Boost: 22.88% to 21.28% = Delta of -1.60% PVP Damage Reduction: 18.62% to 17.55% = Delta of -1.07% PVP Heal Boost: 12.65% to 11.74% = Delta of 0.91% Delta calculations: Deltas from data in raw numbers were obtained with the following formula: ( (Value(t=1) / Value (t=0)) – 1 ) * 100 This means that your ability at t=1 will do X% more damage than the same ability at t=0 so this becomes comparable with our % based values. Deltas from data already in % were simply subtracted: Value(t=1) – Value(t=0) Now let’s analyze our data: Added HP vs Expertise bonus: My HP went up by 350 (1.84%) but I lost a total damage reduction of 1.07%. The added HP helps in neutralizing burst damage since you can withstand a target switch for a longer period of time. However, in a sustained damage fight, the damage reduction will be more beneficial to you and your healers. But using the HP increase of 350 on my total HP is not accurate either. I prefer to use an average of my in-game battle HP which is obtained by taking your entire damage taken at the end of a Warzone and dividing it by your number of deaths + 1. This number will look more like 50k for example. Adding 350 HP on 50k suddenly looks very slim. My conclusion on this: I would say the total damage reduction is better, so the War Hero off hand is better. Added Power vs loss in crit: This is an easy one. Rage Juggs thrive on Power at the expense of Crit since we have auto crits on Smash. My conclusion on this: The Black Hole off hand is better. Added damage vs loss in PVP damage boost: Given the numbers listed above, the Black Hole off hand seems to provide an increase in Force and Melee damage superior to the loss of 1.60% in PVP Damage. The loss in PVP damage means that every ability will do 1.60% damage less off the total damage done by the ability. The melee and force damage data listed above represent modifiers. So they cannot be compared directly to the 1.60%. For instance, the +2.30% increase in Force bonus damage is not 100% of my smash damage. So there is an added coefficient for every ability in the game. Let’s say my Smash does 1000 baseline and then you add 1046.7 bonus damage for a total of 2046.7, our coefficient will be 0.5114. Then we multiply our 0.5114 by the 2.30% increase we get : 1.176% which is inferior to our 1.60% from the expertise. This would mean it is not worth it. My conclusion: I cannot draw a conclusion based on the damage variation. I would still need to have access to the game. That is a calculation you can easily do if you are up for it: 1: Log in game and equip your War Hero off hand fully augmented 2: Note the tooltip min and max damage of your top 3 Force abilities and top 3 Melee abilities 3: Equip your Black Hole off hand fully augmented 4: Note the new tooltip min and max damage of your top 3 Force abilities and top 3 Melee abilities 5: Come post them here on the forum and we will go from there.

It's not stealth, it's camo. Just saying

ok thx, i will calculate this tomorrow at work, give me 24h

PoliteAssassin, You have polluted the last thread about Rage vs Vengeance with your bad arguments and now I believe you are doing so again in this thread. Seeing how you are completely against Rage, whether as a Jugg or Mara, this leads me to believe you fear the Rage warriors. You must be someone I've smash for ridiculous amounts in the past. I've seen the best Mara play Rage in ranks. He finished 2nd in the dueling contest on my server. He was the only non stealth class in the top 10. In our last thread you kept arguing that Vengeance beats Rage hands down. Now you are saying Rage is crap in this thread. I don't know about you, but for Maras to abandon Carnage and Annihilation over Rage (Carnage and Annihilation are both MUCH BETTER specs than Jugg vengeances) this might be because Rage does have some value. And if that is true then everything you have said is complete crap thus you should stop posting. You are definitely the failed player ingame and I am seriously tired of having to read your bad arguments. Since I don't finish posts without a good recommendation, here is my pointer to you mister: Please visit the following websites: http://www.stopposting.com or http://www.st-fu.com if you speak as you type

Hey, I don't normally put my nose in topics that don't concern Juggs, but you brought an idea worth testing. My sub is longer active as of last week, but I would really like to calculate your gains/losses with you profile. Can you please create a Mr.Robot profile with your ingame gear*and spec. If it is not fully optimized in-game, please fully optimize it on your Mr.Robot profile so I can really calculate your maximum stats. Once it is done, please submit the link of your Mr.Robot in this thread. Don't forget to click the maximum rep boxes, all the datacrons + if you are a human click that box aswell. thanks

The best relics you use in both PVP and PVE is currently double War Hero Relic of Imperiling Serenity. http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/gear/42294/war-hero-relic-of-imperiling-serenity

Here read this thread, I've summed it all up: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=524920

Deafening defense is a much better talent than sonic barrier. Hands down go for deafening defense. Just the passive 4% damage reduction is already much better than the sonic barrier buff. Then add the 15% damage reduction on demand every 45 secs, that thing is definitely good stuff. When you play hybrid, you don't have to go far in the immortal tree. Don't forget that your avoidance (defense, shield and absorption) have little meaning in PVP. What you see is pure damage reduction and high HP, since most pvp specs bypass avoidance.

Hey, first of all i suggest you read up on my rage guide: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=524920 To answer your questions, I Highly encourage you to augment every piece of Battlemaster gear as you get them. You will be using that suit for a while trust me. Augment your pieces with Advanced might augment 22, it will give you +18 strength and +12 endurance ( + 120 HP). Just doing this will greatly help you. To survive longer, you need to make better use of Intervene. I suspect you don't use it enough, it is probable one of the best defensive cooldown in the game. The trick here is after you set up force crush, do not expose yourself for 4 seconds for no reason. Reset your pvp agro after you use force crush, it will heal you a bit from the set bonus, and people won't run after you. In order to do so, set your focus on a healer, so that you can easily click his focus frame and intervene to him. For your opener, i suggest you start with: Charge + Enrage then force scream then smash. So if you get knocked back, your scream will still go off. People use knockbacks a lot after you use charge, as a panic button. Just doing scream before smash will fool them. When you get better and know which classes can knock you back, you can start using smash after charge when you are sure it will land. remember, a good Jugg knows when Smash will land, it takes practice. Vicious slash & enraged defense, remove that from your toolbar at once. They are rage drainers with no benefits. Do not ever use these 2 abilities. For the rotation follow the one in my guide it works great. Yes you should use ravage, after crush, obliterate, charge or vs someone casting. Normal attack swings should not be used either (Assault). If you need rage use sunder armor. If you still find yourself out of rage, you simply need practice with your rage management. In the meantime i suggest you take 1 point out of dreadnaught and put 2/2 in Unyielding from my spec in my guide. For your def cooldown we have 3, excluding enraged def. Saber ward, Endure pain and intervene. In my guide i suggest the healing approach which is in this exact order: Endure pain, PVP medpack, Intervene. This should heal you for a considerable amount. Clicking on targets is OK, but not to use abilities. Tab targeting just takes practice. But for Intervene to work you absolutely need to set your focus on a friendly target. It will bring up a target frame which you can move around. What you want to do is click that focus frame as you press with a binded keyboard key your intervene button, it is instant. About your last question, it is not because they dodge it, it is simple maths. People in lvl 50 WZ have up to 18k-19k HP consistently. 30% of that is much higher than 30% of 10k HP. Lets say it crits for 4k. If someone has 10k HP, you will kill him since 30% = 3k. But at 20k HP, 30% is 6k HP, you will not kill him. P.S. my sub ends tonight, i am unsure if i can still post when it has expired... So if you have other questions, better ask them quickly.

I would start now if i were you to get used to it. Make sure you read up my guide i posted yesterday. It tells you exactly how to play this. And I want to bring your attention on 1 thing while playing this spec. Rage has the potential to do the highest total damage done in WZ. However i never really tried to play that way, since this is not how you win serious WZ. I did talk about it a little bit in my guide, but if you are trying to max out your damage, as you hit Crush, be mindful of what is going on around you, and charge to a pack of bunched up enemies. The goal here is to max out your damage only. It is not strategic unfortunately. I was more of a single target Rage player and which I was extremely efficient at killing key players. I have had the enemy healer in the opposite team (which is also a good friend of mine) telling me i killed him 11 times in a single ranked WZ. Single target Rage can do that and will contribute greatly to the team victory. So as much as topping numbers is fun, i encourage you to have a more focused play style, focused on winning and contributing to the team, not mindless damage. And I encourage you to start practicing now. You will be limited to 2 smash per minute until you get crush, make them count! When you will be able to do 5 per minute, you will be ready for it.

Hey everyone, my subscription ends in 2 days and it is with great regret that I have to say goodbye to all you other Juggs out there. I am in my final master's year and this will be the last MMO I ever play. I want to thank everyone for the time played in-game and spent on this forum. Here is a copy-paste of the full guide I have built, which I have never posted fully. Summary of my guide followed by the details on each section: 1.0 Jugg Spec choice 2.0 How to play the spec # 1.4 3.0 Style does matter! 4.0 Crewskill 5.0 Vindicator Gear 1.0 Jugg Spec choice There is a huge gap between the Immortal and Rage specs. Between the 2 pure specs, a lot of hybrids are out there. Here is a quick peek on what you can expect to see from a Jugg. These specs are ranked from the less to the most squishy: 1.1 - Pure Immortal (31) & Sub Vengeance (10) This spec focusses on tasks like peeling, guarding players, objectives and stunning. Don’t expect much burst from them, but expect to be annoyed all game long. As a melee character myself, I simply avoid these people. They are not worth my burst and they will tank too much of my damage. 1.2 - Hybrid Immortal (17) & Sub Vengeance (24) This is similar to the spec 1.1 but without the peeling and stunning aspects. This focusses mainly on more survivability and more sustained DPS. This is a better spec to PVP with than the full Immortal spec. 1.3 - Pure Vengeance (31) & Sub Rage (10) This is the standard Vengeance spec. It is a spec that focusses on sustained DPS. There have been many debates about Vengeance vs Rage in PVP. This spec has some nice survival aspects built inside the DPS tree which is interesting, but it falls short in terms of the whole PVP environment. Pros: Great PVE spec. Since it focusses on sustained damage, you never have downtime. Boss armor is low (35% mitigation) and talents fit well in PVE fights. This is the best PVE DPS spec we have. Cons: Lack of burst Lack of control opportunities Unable to take down guarded players or geared players Melee (4m) range heavy 1.4 – Pure Rage (31) & Sub Vengeance (10) My spec: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/Juggernaut#2-80f-13e8fdc6ek This spec is optimized for one thing. Damage dealing. The synergies with the vengeance tree are incredible and boost the spec to its maximum potential. Pros: Impressive burst damage + good sustained damage in PVP (not PVE) Good rage generation. Unyielding in the Vengeance tree can be upgraded to 2/2 if you find yourself rage starved when you first play this spec. 100% crit hit on Smash + free force scream which hit for 2k (non-crit)-4k (crit) Most attacks are not melee range (4m). Instead we hit mostly from 10m away. Cons: Extremely squishy. Lack of defensive stats from the other 2 trees and lack of defensive cooldowns compared to other classes. 2.0 How to play the spec # 1.4 You build Shockwave stacks (4), charge or obliterate to a target (preferably where there are many enemies bunched up) then SMASH the trash. Make sure you know what builds shockwave: Enrage, Force crush, force Choke This spec allows you to be mobile and unload your burst very quickly then control your target for 5 secs and build up new shockwave. The trick to this spec is patience. Even if you have 4 stacks of shockwave and you charge, you don't have to use them right away. Yes you will lose the +10% damage from the charge buff, but it's more optimal to walk to a pack of 3-4 people and then smash. Plus people often knock you back after a charge, screwing up your smash. Beware of auto knockbacks! Just to give you an example of my rotation: Target focus: Multi Target: Focus on multi-target groups Single Target: Out of range / badly positioned enemy players Peels for my healer Enemy Healers Healing: Endure Pain PVP Medpacks Intercede PVP Rotation: Intervene as much as possible after Crush 1- Charge + pop Enrage (builds 4 shockwave) + Force scream + Smash + Force crush Interrupt his 1st heal (beware of jukers ) + Ravage (the target is extremely slowed from force crush) 2- Obliterate + Force scream + Smash 3- Force Choke (4 sec cast builds 4 stacks of shockwave) + force push (this part is important because the healer is desperately trying to heal himself after the burst you just did and successfully interrupted his 1st heal) 4- Charge + Force scream + Smash + Force crush Interrupt his 2nd Heal (beware of jukers) + ravage (the target is again slowed by force crush) In case the healer is not dead or you messed up the interrupts, you still have 2 important tools; 1- FEAR : Use it to buy time for your attacks to be ready 2- Crafted Cryo grenades/seismic grenades, CC for 4 secs You play this in Shii-cho stance. You need the +6% force damage and increase armor pen for your force scream + smash. Also better rage regen. If your healer is being focussed start by taunting the enemies on him and use intervene on him. This will reduce their damage by 20% and 30%. If it gets out of hand, go Soresu stances and guard him + taunt + intervene. 3.0 Style does matter! Your fighting style is very important in tuning your Rage spec. In order to compensate for our lack of survivability, I adapted my fighting style instead of my spec. As I mentioned previously, Intervene is a big part of my game. I must use this 20 times a game. Here are the advantages in doing so: 1- Enemies focussing on you often lose interest when you get out of range, they will simply target whoever is the closest. That is really the main reason. Use it to reset the fight after they have popped their cooldowns. 2- Gives your healer a frequent 20% damage reduction + Builds rage when you Charge back. 3- As mentioned previously, the best way to play this spec is to Burst, recover + build-up more burst with shockwaves while controlling the target. Using intervene during that 2-5 secs downtime is important. First to reduce the damage dealt on your friendly target and second to reduce your exposure in the enemy pack. I also frequently use taunt. Having single and AOE taunt binded on the mouse, using them randomly is still better than not using them at all. I see people never taunting during the game. Why? It does not cost anything, it is off GDC and it has a small cooldown. If you are not familiar with taunt and you do not want to bother, bind it with an attack you use often (use a mouse program to do so). It will benefit your team by applying a constant -30% damage reduction to your target. I find taunting (single + aoe) + intervene on friendly healers sufficient and I rarely go in Soresu form nowadays. 4.0 Crewskill These are mine: Biochem = Re-usable Rakata Stim and re-usable Rakata Medpack. Unfortunately adrenals are not usable anymore in PVP. Slicing = For credits. Credits buys gear and items for both PVP and PVE Scavenging = For lvl 3 and lvl 6 mats to send to my lowbie Cybertech alt to craft seismic and freeze grenades! Use them on your Jugg. Diplomacy and Bioanalysis are useless once you have maxed out Biochem. 5.0 Vindicator Gear Basically when your War Hero Vindicator set is fully augmented, you stand at a point where you will always face a tradeoff every time you modify something. I have simulated many different mod and enhancement changes and the gain in Power always comes with a loss in strength, crit and endurance. The tolerable available changes in gear are as follows: Accuracy: Can be modified to have +5%. Anything extra should be replaced with Power. Crit: Can be greatly diminished and replaced by Power. SMASH is auto-crit so it is not influenced by crit. I have built an optimized gear profile as of patch 1.3 as well as the most efficient way to do it. Before I give it up, I also want to give the results of a long lasting debate between Power and Strength augments: Profile with Power Augments: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b5fffaa5-7494-41cb-ab6a-76258a82a6f0 Here is a quick summary of the stats: Strength = 1502.9 Power = 1284.0 Damage Melee = 949.7 – 1111.7 Accuracy Melee = 96.34% Critical Chance Melee = 23.43% Critical Multiplier Melee = 77.95% Bonus Damage Force = 1025.5 Accuracy Force = 106.34% Critical Chance Force = 30.60% Critical Multiplier Force = 107.95% Health = 18973.4 Expertise = 1211 Profile with Strength Augments: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/45beb788-5a88-4da2-917a-2d7fd8025578 Here is a quick summary of the stats: Strength = 1782.7 Power = 1032.0 Damage Melee = 947.6 – 1109.6 Accuracy Melee = 96.34% Critical Chance Melee = 24.89% Critical Multiplier Melee = 77.95% Bonus Damage Force = 1023.2 Accuracy Force = 106.34% Critical Chance Force = 32.06% Critical Multiplier Force = 107.95% Health = 18973.4 Expertise = 1211 Bottom line, the difference between the two profiles is quite simple. Compared to full power augments, the full strength augments will provide the player with a total damage loss of 2.1 (Which is very minimal) but nets a gain of 1.46% in Crit. Earlier I did say we could sacrifice Crit, but 2.1 total damage vs 1.46% Crit is a big tradeoff. As of patch 1.3, full strength augments are still better. Here is why: 1 Strength = + 0.2 Damage and + 0.03% Crit 1 power = + 0.23 Damage. Buffs that modify our strength: 1 strength = 1 * (1 + 0.05(Buff) +0.06(Talent)) = 1.11 1.11 * 0.2 Damage= 0.222 Damage This is the reason why the difference in Damage is so minimal while benefitting from a nice Crit increase. Also the Crit gained from strength is on a different diminishing return curve than Crit rating itself which turns out to be another advantage. Here are the steps to achieve the optimal gear, assuming you are starting from full Battlemaster. I suggest you get full Battlemaster + augment your Battlemaster as you get it. Fully augmented Battlemaster is pretty much equal to Full War Hero not augmented. The order is also important. It is based on the basic item value (unmodified) and the cost incurred to optimize it. In the 1st Step, you want to prioritize the unmodified gear that gives you the best stats and in the 2nd step you want to prioritize the modification of the worst item currently equipped. * Excluded costs of: Augments, Augment kits, Augment fee and Mod ripping fee ** When turning in a Battlemaster piece to get the War Hero piece, rip the mods and keep them, especially the + Power ones. 1st Step: Pre-remodded gear: War Hero Vindicator's Lightsaber : Battlemaster Item + 3475 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages : 1425 Ranked Comms +200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages : 1425 Ranked Comms + 200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Pummeler's MK-1 Package: 1425 Ranked Comms + 200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Pummeler's MK-1 Package: 1425 Ranked Comms + 200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Pummeler's MK-1 Device : 1425 Ranked Comms + 200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Generator : Battlemaster Item + 3475 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Handgear : Battlemaster Item + 2000 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Headgear : Battlemaster Item + 2425 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Chestguard : Battlemaster Item + 3200 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Boots : Battlemaster Item + 2000 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Greaves : Battlemaster Item + 2225 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 The Belt and Bracers have been omitted because they will be the first ones to get modified. 2nd Step: Remodding the gear: *To remod our gear we use the War Hero Vindicator’s Handgear. It contains the optimal mod and the 2nd best enhancement. So while you are ripping the mods, use this enhancement to temporarily put in non-optimized gear and preferably the Boots and Pants. Juggernaut's Exalted Bracers : Purchase Juggernaut’s Exalted Bracers : 100 000 Credits Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 Add Advanced Might Armoring 26 crafted by Cybertech: Mats on GTN Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms Juggernaut's Exalted Belt : Purchase Juggernaut’s Exalted Belt : 100 000 Credits Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 Add Advanced Might Armoring 26 crafted by Cybertech: Mats on GTN Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Boots : Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Greaves : Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Lightsaber : Add Advanced Hawkeye Crystal : Crystal Mats on GTN Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Handgear : Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Headgear : Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Chestguard : Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms

In the screenshot there are 2 different models. I'm positive I have looted the purple looking one on taris as I was levelling up. It was south from the initial Imp base. I would say within the first 15 quests of the story line. But you can get the same looking version from the basic PVP vendor in the fleet. Either the Sith warrior basic PVP vendor or the lowbie guy near Jensen

Ah then why the hell are you giving your opinion when the title clearly says: is vengeance viable for rated pvp? You just said it yourself that you are not qualified to talk about this then. So far everyone has said crit was good. You're very wrong to think a Vengeance Jugg should not gear up to 30% crit unbuffed. Vengeance has to gear the exact same way Marauders do. Go on their forum and read up a bit. As for DOTS... Vengeance DOTS in PVE are fine. The issue in PVP is that it doesn't have it's place. If PVP was like WOW arenas, then that could even be acceptable. Right now, your DOTS won't tick for much and won't have time to tick either. You obviously don't understand the word burst. Burst kill people in PVP not your DOTS. Your DOTS will simply break CC. Every voidstar and Nova cost, this is the kind of stuff we call in vent: AOE CC + group cap, over and over. Having you in my group would be a liability due to your spec! But i guess objectives don't matter in ranked right? Just the fact that ranked groups ask you to tank as Vengeance-Hybrid, this should also tell you that your spec is not viable in a ranked team. It cannot be clearer I'll do printscreens of my next batch of Ranked Warzones and gladly show you what you will never achieve.

1st of all thx for your +10 Void faction points in that other thread! That other thread is so out of control now, i have to stop reading it, it is driving me nuts! As your for equation you have the general idea, but you misused one variable. The following equations: 1 Strength = (0.222 damage) + (0.03 damage)*(Your personnal crit stat weight) This is your faulty variable : (Your personnal crit stat weight) It is not equal to your current self buffed crit, in your case 30%. In order to have the proper value, you need to use a statweight program. Here is where you can find one int eh Guardian/Juggernaut DPS thread, download DPScraft: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/forum-8.html You input your current game items or stats. And it will give you a spreadsheet of your stats given on a base of 1 power. Now you need to take the value associated with the Crit rating after you have input your stats. With that number you simply plug it in the other formula and you will have your answer. You seem to be curious about the mechanics, so go ahead and read up the entire website. Read our class forum and all the game and raid mechanics threads, you should enjoy it.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Power and Strength influence ALL damage the exact same way, except for different amounts. For 1 unit of power your damage will increase by 0.23. For 1 unit of Strength your damage will increase by 0.222. But you cannot add raw crit like that. The 0.03 crit that is added needs to be multiplied by your own crit coefficient which changes according to your crit rating. Lets say you are at 30% crit unbuffed and untalented, 1 power = 1 crit. So at that level, Strength = 0.252 damage per 1 unit of strength and which is better than 1 unit of power. But if your unbuffed crit is at 40%, you will have 1 strength = 0.222 + 0.03( coefficient less than 1, lets say 0.25) = 0.222 + (0.03*0.25) = 0.2295. So in that case 1 unit of power will be better than 1 unit of strength. here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/forum-5.html I think I just understood what you were saying. You added 1.46% crit chance in that equation which you definitely cannot. Full power augmented, it will grant you +2 damage on your melee primary damage. So lets say you hit Obliterate for 2000 damage, now it will hit for 2002. The +1.46% comes from the crit added because of strength augment. Since there is about a dozen augments, adding an extra 1.46% crit chance to your overall player crit chance is huge for a nearly equal amount of damage. Basically you are comparing a +1.46% crit chance to a loss of 0.10% in damage.

... Now you are adding DOTS... 4 points in your talent tree that will bring you pitiful DOT ticks that will have 1 precise purpose: Breaking CCs, well played. Your DOT argument just added to your Crit sucks argument and made you even less credible. The more you give your opinion the less I think you are on a rated team

Hey, I've done the calculations and remodding. Might is still better no matter which spec you use. I am linking you the calculations followed by the steps to optimize your gear: 5.0 Vindicator Gear Basically when your War Hero Vindicator set is fully augmented, you stand at a point where you will always face a tradeoff every time you modify something. I have simulated many different mod and enhancement changes and the gain in Power always comes with a loss in strength, crit and endurance. The tolerable available changes in gear are as follows: Accuracy: Can be modified to have +5%. Anything extra should be replaced with Power. Crit: Can be greatly diminished and replaced by Power. SMASH is auto-crit so it is not influenced by crit. I have built an optimized gear profile as of patch 1.3 as well as the most efficient way to do it. Before I give it up, I also want to give the results of a long lasting debate between Power and Strength augments: Profile with Power Augments: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b5fffaa5-7494-41cb-ab6a-76258a82a6f0 Here is a quick summary of the stats: Strength = 1502.9 Power = 1284.0 Damage Melee = 949.7 – 1111.7 Accuracy Melee = 96.34% Critical Chance Melee = 23.43% Critical Multiplier Melee = 77.95% Bonus Damage Force = 1025.5 Accuracy Force = 106.34% Critical Chance Force = 30.60% Critical Multiplier Force = 107.95% Health = 18973.4 Expertise = 1211 Profile with Strength Augments: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/45beb788-5a88-4da2-917a-2d7fd8025578 Here is a quick summary of the stats: Strength = 1782.7 Power = 1032.0 Damage Melee = 947.6 – 1109.6 Accuracy Melee = 96.34% Critical Chance Melee = 24.89% Critical Multiplier Melee = 77.95% Bonus Damage Force = 1023.2 Accuracy Force = 106.34% Critical Chance Force = 32.06% Critical Multiplier Force = 107.95% Health = 18973.4 Expertise = 1211 Bottom line, the difference between the two profiles is quite simple. Compared to full power augments, the full strength augments will provide the player with a total damage loss of 2.1 (Which is very minimal) but nets a gain of 1.46% in Crit. Earlier I did say we could sacrifice Crit, but 2.1 total damage vs 1.46% Crit is a big tradeoff. As of patch 1.3, full strength augments are still better. Here is why: 1 Strength = + 0.2 Damage and + 0.03% Crit 1 power = + 0.23 Damage. Buffs that modify our strength: 1 strength = 1 * (1 + 0.05(Buff) +0.06(Talent)) = 1.11 1.11 * 0.2 Damage= 0.222 Damage This is the reason why the difference in Damage is so minimal while benefitting from a nice Crit increase. Also the Crit gained from strength is on a different diminishing return curve than Crit rating itself which turns out to be another advantage. Here are the steps to achieve the optimal gear, assuming you are starting from full Battlemaster. I suggest you get full Battlemaster + augment your Battlemaster as you get it. Fully augmented Battlemaster is pretty much equal to Full War Hero not augmented. The order is also important. It is based on the basic item value (unmodified) and the cost incurred to optimize it. In the 1st Step, you want to prioritize the unmodified gear that gives you the best stats and in the 2nd step you want to prioritize the modification of the worst item currently equipped. * Excluded costs of: Augments, Augment kits, Augment fee and Mod ripping fee ** When turning in a Battlemaster piece to get the War Hero piece, rip the mods and keep them, especially the + Power ones. 1st Step: Pre-remodded gear: War Hero Vindicator's Lightsaber : Battlemaster Item + 3475 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages : 1425 Ranked Comms +200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages : 1425 Ranked Comms + 200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Pummeler's MK-1 Package: 1425 Ranked Comms + 200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Pummeler's MK-1 Package: 1425 Ranked Comms + 200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Pummeler's MK-1 Device : 1425 Ranked Comms + 200 Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Generator : Battlemaster Item + 3475 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Handgear : Battlemaster Item + 2000 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Headgear : Battlemaster Item + 2425 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Chestguard : Battlemaster Item + 3200 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Boots : Battlemaster Item + 2000 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 War Hero Vindicator's Greaves : Battlemaster Item + 2225 Ranked Comms Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 The Belt and Bracers have been omitted because they will be the first ones to get modified. 2nd Step: Remodding the gear: *To remod our gear we use the War Hero Vindicator’s Handgear. It contains the optimal mod and the 2nd best enhancement. So while you are ripping the mods, use this enhancement to temporarily put in non-optimized gear and preferably the Boots and Pants. Juggernaut's Exalted Bracers : Purchase Juggernaut’s Exalted Bracers : 100 000 Credits Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 Add Advanced Might Armoring 26 crafted by Cybertech: Mats on GTN Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms Juggernaut's Exalted Belt : Purchase Juggernaut’s Exalted Belt : 100 000 Credits Augment + Add Advanced Might Augment 22 Add Advanced Might Armoring 26 crafted by Cybertech: Mats on GTN Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Boots : Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Greaves : Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Lightsaber : Add Advanced Hawkeye Crystal : Crystal Mats on GTN Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Handgear : Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Headgear : Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms War Hero Vindicator's Chestguard : Add War Hero Deft mod 26 by ripping the War Hero Vindicator’s Hands Mod : Battlemaster Vindicator’s Handgear (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms Add War Hero Adept Enhancement by ripping the War Hero Force-Mystic’s Gloves : Battlemaster Force-Mystic’s Gloves (875 Comms) + 2000 Ranked Comms

Here are 2 screenshots of my Juggernaut https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hWI5GCyry9QuhF6g-a2QiNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ebei1qhCvQr-wYsoHXyhY9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink