Kailthir Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Here is a more realistic answer on what is P2W... Most people would agree that P2W is spending money on microtransactions that give an unfair advantage to players that do not spend the money to buy it. Money can be seen as Rl cash or store only tokens etc. It is a disadvantage to those that cannot afford to spend the cash or tokens to buy said items. Especially if the item in question is a store only item not obtainable in the game... for example in LOTRO Relic Removal Scrolls. Used to be in the game and they moved it into the store. Another example would be certain health and power pots that cannot be earned in the game.... or how about legendary item scroll upgrades that are store only items. Then you have items that are rare or very rare drops that can be purchased in the store. To be honest I would venture to say most items in the game store are P2W. People say well cosmetic is just fluff. I disagree. What if it was an ultra rare drop or u can't get in in the game? There are people out there that that see cosmetic fluff as a big part of the game. If cosmetic fluff wasn't a big part of the game people wouldn't constantly gripe about ugly armor etc. When trying to define a phrase that has no official websters dictionary defination... you must use the accepted defination that is the norm. Especially if it is a slang term... which P2W is slang... So Urban Dictionary should be an accepted source for the defination. It actually is the defination most people hold true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenter Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Officially defined? Does something need official definition to be accepted as a general consensus? Players have different definitions for everything. For instance, what defines casual? How many variations of casual are there? What defines Hard Core and how many variations of that are there? What defines MMO and how many people have different views on what an MMO should be? When a term is being discussed one way... you dont come into an arguement with the same term meaning something else to you. No, it doesn't need an official definition, but atleast give something that strengthens your view of what the general consensus is here. You ask a bloke to either adapt to your (and everyone else's apparently) definition or bow out of the discussion. Why would like buying levels be "pay to win"? Why would someone buyng the same weapon I just got from a loot drop be considered "pay to win"? What the hell do I care where he got it from? I have the same freakin' piece, why complain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 No, it doesn't need an official definition, but atleast give something that strengthens your view of what the general consensus is here. You ask a bloke to either adapt to your (and everyone else's apparently) definition or bow out of the discussion. Why would like buying levels be "pay to win"? Why would someone buyng the same weapon I just got from a loot drop be considered "pay to win"? What the hell do I care where he got it from? I have the same freakin' piece, why complain? This is why ..... Because you and I dont agree on what Pay To Win is. If you look from a level stand point.... level 50 cap is the win. If you paid to skip levels you paid to win If it took me 3 months to farm for a lightsaber and some joe smoe bought it from the cash shop for 5 bucks... thats pay to win. I dont care what you think pay to win in. This is what I think pay to win is. Im sure many people feel just as I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenter Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 This is why ..... Because you and I dont agree on what Pay To Win is. If you look from a level stand point.... level 50 cap is the win. If you paid to skip levels you paid to win If it took me 3 months to farm for a lightsaber and some joe smoe bought it from the cash shop for 5 bucks... thats pay to win. I dont care what you think pay to win in. This is what I think pay to win is. Im sure many people feel just as I do. I don't look at games like that. This is entertainment and I'm in it for me. I couldn't care less how someone reached higher levels and I wouldn't even know how they got there. As long as people can't buy their way to the top in a competitive setting, I couldn't really say they "pay to win". You don't care what I think is p2w and I don't care what you think is p2w, but I don't think it's fair to hold your view as the generally accepted one and ask people to leave the discussion if they don't conform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kailthir Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I don't look at games like that. This is entertainment and I'm in it for me. I couldn't care less how someone reached higher levels and I wouldn't even know how they got there. As long as people can't buy their way to the top in a competitive setting, I couldn't really say they "pay to win". Well what about P2W when it pertains to ranked WZ... If and when they ever come out? What about PvP? Imagine getting into a PvP battle and some dude has superawesomewickidcool armor and weapon that is ultra hard to obtain or only obtainable in the game store? Guy/gal is running around in WPvP and instanced PvP kicking the hell out of everyone else cause they spent the cash/tokens etc to get the stuff. Others that do not have the money or resources are at a distinct disadvantage. You don't care what I think is p2w and I don't care what you think is p2w, but I don't think it's fair to hold your view as the generally accepted one and ask people to leave the discussion if they don't conform. Dosen't matter what a single person thinks P2W is. What matters is the understood generally accepted defination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) Then you have items that are rare or very rare drops that can be purchased in the store. That's not pay-2-win... that's pay-2-not_grind. To be honest I would venture to say most items in the game store are P2W. People say well cosmetic is just fluff. I disagree. What if it was an ultra rare drop or u can't get in in the game? There are people out there that that see cosmetic fluff as a big part of the game. Speculation, presented as fact. Further, I find your chosen definition of pay-2-win to be extremely broad and all encompassing. Exactly what could be sold in a cash shop that would not be pay-2-win for you?? And really, there is no such thing as pay-2-win in a PvE game, and this is a PvE game with a bit of PvP bolted to the side of the bulkhead. The only people that IMO can even line up to potentially gripe about a cash shop being pay-2-win would be PvPer, in a PvP centric game (like Warhammer). If cosmetic fluff wasn't a big part of the game people wouldn't constantly gripe about ugly armor etc. Once again, that's not pay-2-win, that is P2LG (pay-2-look-good). It cannot even remotely be conveyed as pay-2-win unless this game is about costume pagents and if you lose the pageent you lose the game and your characters are deleted or some other silliness IMO. Edited August 4, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 For me it's not about P2W it's about having content available for cash that I cannot unlock through game play or buy with comms, if they want to put the battlemaster chest piece up for $20 or 200 WZ comms cool. If they move it so it can only be bought for $20 then I'm gone. This counts for all things even as simple as a vanity pet, a mount or even a new haircut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBlue Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 For me it's not about P2W it's about having content available for cash that I cannot unlock through game play or buy with comms, if they want to put the battlemaster chest piece up for $20 or 200 WZ comms cool. If they move it so it can only be bought for $20 then I'm gone. Considering F2Pers are limited in the number of WZ they can fight in, as well as FP (and can't play Ops at all), end-game gear isn't going to be moved from being purchasable in-game to CS-only. This counts for all things even as simple as a vanity pet, a mount or even a new haircut. There will most certainly be orange armor shells, vanity pets and mounts in the CS that aren't available in-game. These are non-essentials, even for subscribers. And subscribers will be getting a monthly amount of CC (and that's not counting the CC for current subscribers) - we're not getting that just to purchase items we don't want to spend time getting in game. Even a subscriber who has everything should be tempted to buy something from the CS, but there shouldn't be anything they need to buy, You can bet that the two Fan Favorite Rewards that we don't get as a bonus will only be available from the CS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 For me it's not about P2W it's about having content available for cash that I cannot unlock through game play or buy with comms, if they want to put the battlemaster chest piece up for $20 or 200 WZ comms cool. If they move it so it can only be bought for $20 then I'm gone. This counts for all things even as simple as a vanity pet, a mount or even a new haircut. I guarentee you there will be stuff on the cash shop that you cannot get in game drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 There will most certainly be orange armor shells, vanity pets and mounts in the CS that aren't available in-game. These are non-essentials, even for subscribers. And subscribers will be getting a monthly amount of CC (and that's not counting the CC for current subscribers) - we're not getting that just to purchase items we don't want to spend time getting in game. Even a subscriber who has everything should be tempted to buy something from the CS, but there shouldn't be anything they need to buy, You can bet that the two Fan Favorite Rewards that we don't get as a bonus will only be available from the CS. There in lies the issue, it all depends on what you consider to be content, I have guild members that consider it a matter of pride and achievement to have hunted down and collected every single vanity pet, every single datacron, every single mount and every single Codex entry in the game. It's not my style of game but people are going to be very upset after spending a lot of time killing world bosses multiple times for the speeder or camping egg spawns for the pet or grinding the rakgoul plague for the pet if those things or the equivalent go up for sale for $10 in a store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I guarentee you there will be stuff on the cash shop that you cannot get in game drops. Which will cause a massive demographic shift in players, people like myself will leave and others will replace us. You will see more players but I am looking at it from my own (selfish) personal point of view, at the moment it's my game, the one that I play, it seems that soon it won't fit that ideal any more. Which I find to be a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Which will cause a massive demographic shift in players, people like myself will leave and others will replace us. You will see more players but I am looking at it from my own (selfish) personal point of view, at the moment it's my game, the one that I play, it seems that soon it won't fit that ideal any more. Which I find to be a shame. What I find a shame is all the run around about end game armor we got. Talking about how long it takes to make better looking armor. They will be pumping new armor shells out on a monthly basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonmana Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 10 bucks says here comes the white crystal again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 10 bucks says here comes the white crystal again. I bet speeders that dissapeared make it back in the cash shop too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonmana Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I bet speeders that dissapeared make it back in the cash shop too. that sounds completly belivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 For me it's not about P2W it's about having content available for cash that I cannot unlock through game play or buy with comms, if they want to put the battlemaster chest piece up for $20 or 200 WZ comms cool. If they move it so it can only be bought for $20 then I'm gone. This counts for all things even as simple as a vanity pet, a mount or even a new haircut. If they follow normal Freemium conventions of the MMO trailbalzers, they will offer some things both ways (so that players can pay subs and grind, or go free and buy, or maybe some of both), some things will only be available in game (to incent freeples to subscribe to get at it), and some items will be special promotional fluff incentives to get subscriber to part with some of their hoarded coins from their monthly allowance (to allow subs to flaunt in front of freeples so that freeples will buy too to keep up with the Skywalkers). Google and read up on the psychology of freemium/F2P incentives (there is a marketing psychology around this stuff) and you can get a good idea on what will be done and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirorx Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Then why play the game at all if it's not worth your time? This is a terrible answer. You play to have fun, you dont play to grind mindlessly for hours. There is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andarilhodoceu Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 This is a terrible answer. You play to have fun, you dont play to grind mindlessly for hours. There is a difference. Exactly. I don't have much time to spend on a videogame and when I do, I want to take the most out of the experience. Grinding mindlessly for hours just to get some item is NOT FUN. If I want to raid and don't want to spend endless hours ons runs upon runs upon runs, I should be able to go to the store, shove some dollars in BW's direction and get my complete set so I can experience the raid at its fullest. I'd gladly spend that money to maximize my experience during the few hours I can play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hizoka Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 they were directly asked in an interview if HK was coming before the shop. they dodged teh question meaning that you will have to buy HK... its going to be pay to win before christmas hits.i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) and you saying buying levels is P2W so how can you lose to someones bought levels? http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/04/19/the-daily-grind-how-do-you-define-pay-to-win/ this might help you I didn't say that anywhere , but I would say buying levels is something along those lines. Do you expect SWTOR to be selling levels? and how do bought levels give you an advantage? A level 50 is a level 50. The advantage in that case is that you don't have to level at all (and this is especially important on a PvP server), in the end if you can buy L50 then what is the point of ANYONE having to "level" to L50 in the first place? You may as well just make the game level-less to begin with. Edited August 5, 2012 by Goretzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenter Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 they were directly asked in an interview if HK was coming before the shop. they dodged teh question meaning that you will have to buy HK... its going to be pay to win before christmas hits.i Why is this sensational? And what does this have to do with P2W? So for new content, the people playing for free will have to lay down the cash. What else is new?... If HK releases after they transform into F2P, of course you'll have to buy the content he comes with unless you pay your sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavell Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Why is this sensational? And what does this have to do with P2W? So for new content, the people playing for free will have to lay down the cash. What else is new?... If HK releases after they transform into F2P, of course you'll have to buy the content he comes with unless you pay your sub. You'll have to lay down the cash for him even if you do pay for your subscription. Anyone thinking subscribers are going to get something that'll sell as well as new companions without having to pay a premium are absolutely nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck_of_Death Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Do I need the ring of fire resistence from the cash shop for the fight against the new dragon raid boss? Of course not. Do I get in a raid group without the ring of fire resistence? Of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fornix Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 You'll have to lay down the cash for him even if you do pay for your subscription. Anyone thinking subscribers are going to get something that'll sell as well as new companions without having to pay a premium are absolutely nuts. Yeh well, it generates millions if timed right, simply look at the sparkly pony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xippo Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) I read this thread start to finish (yea I'm bored) and as far as I can tell JarJar answered every question that was put to him. Calling JarJar a kid in almost every other sentence in almost everyone of your replies just makes you sound foolish Xippo. There is nothing wrong with being a kid (if he even is one). Video games are ment for people of all ages, not just self entitled narcissits like yourself. If you don't want to "babysit" maybe you need a new hobby. I recommend one that doesn't involve you interacting with other human beings. "I can absolutely prove it, I choose however to leave you to your own devices" is more of a childish statement than anything JarJar said. So I'm on topic here - My view on the new free to play model they have chosen to adopt. Meh, I'm keeping my sub. If they put something in the shop worth buying I'll drop 20 bucks. It's just a game and not worth getting your panties in a bunch. Well acting like a kid will get you called out as a kid. And again if you go through and look at his posting history you would see that it is not only in this thread and with me but with many other people and in other threads he has been intentionally obtuse and /or will intentionally cherry pick and fail to answer so please cut the crap. Oh and really Jedimessiah? Think a little highly of yourself? A little disillusioned? Someone who refers to himself as a messiah has no room to talk to anyone else about narcissism. So please GFY. Edited August 5, 2012 by xippo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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