Advance Class Respec

[grallmate]

Allow me to start by saying that this has no effect on me. It won't stop me playing and I won't use it. However, from a mechanics and grouping perspective, I am leaning towards not wanting it.

 

ACs are very different, as has been mentioned many times. Different ACs share a core numer of abilities but also have a large number of unique abilities. I'm only going to focus on the ones I know a reasonable amount about: Sage vs Shadow (Assassin actually) and Guardian vs Sentinel.

 

Sage vs Shadow:

- Shadow has stealth, 10m range, has a finishing (<30% HP) move and tanking abilities.

- Sage has 30m range, healing abilities and uses a much larger force pool.

- Force management is VERY different for the 2 classes (huge force pool vs regen)

- Balance (the shared tree) plays very differently.

- Threat drop abilities are very different.

 

Guardian vs Sentinel:

- Guardian has heavy armour, more control abilities and tanking abilities.

- Sentinel has medium armour, centering mechanics, group buffs and can only DPS.

- Focus plays similarly but the supporting abilities change how it functions.

 

I honestly wouldn't want to play with people that were changing classes regularly. There is a lot more to an AC change than a respec, especially as far as learning curve goes. Even between DPS specs: Sage Telekenetics plays differently from Sage Balance which is different from Shadow Balance with is again different from Shadow Infiltration. Atleast between trees in the same class you have (largely) the same abilities, it is simply rotations/priorities that are different.

 

I do not want to queue in group finder with a Guardian tank that 2 hours ago was a Sentinel and doesn't know what Sundering Strike is or how to manage threat. I do not want to queue with a Sage healer that 20 minutes ago was a Shadow and thinks Benevolence is good burst healing because it has a shorter cast time. I don't want to party with a Shadow that stealthed into the middle of a group and got seen because he leveled as a Sage and never learned how stealth works. Sure after a couple of weeks they might be awesome at it, but by then they could be (close to) 50 with a new character anyway.

 

The only things you lose by leveling a new character over changing AC are valor rank and gear. Gear will often need to be replaced anyway, sure some classes can use the same gear but some can't. In terms of Valor rank the only thing you lose is the ability to trade WZ comms for RWZ comms and a slice of ego.

 

A better solution would be to make your Valor rank tied to your legacy but I wouldn't be opposed to AC changes being available to playes below say level 25. That gives players a chance to try out an AC and change if they don't like it but doesn't end up with the above scenarios.

 

TL;DR: I'm ready for the insults because no one will actually respond logically.

[Khraizin]

Allow me to start by saying that this has no effect on me. It won't stop me playing and I won't use it. However, from a mechanics and grouping perspective, I am leaning towards not wanting it.

 

ACs are very different, as has been mentioned many times. Different ACs share a core numer of abilities but also have a large number of unique abilities. I'm only going to focus on the ones I know a reasonable amount about: Sage vs Shadow (Assassin actually) and Guardian vs Sentinel.

 

Sage vs Shadow:

- Shadow has stealth, 10m range, has a finishing (<30% HP) move and tanking abilities.

- Sage has 30m range, healing abilities and uses a much larger force pool.

- Force management is VERY different for the 2 classes (huge force pool vs regen)

- Balance (the shared tree) plays very differently.

- Threat drop abilities are very different.

 

Guardian vs Sentinel:

- Guardian has heavy armour, more control abilities and tanking abilities.

- Sentinel has medium armour, centering mechanics, group buffs and can only DPS.

- Focus plays similarly but the supporting abilities change how it functions.

 

I honestly wouldn't want to play with people that were changing classes regularly. There is a lot more to an AC change than a respec, especially as far as learning curve goes. Even between DPS specs: Sage Telekenetics plays differently from Sage Balance which is different from Shadow Balance with is again different from Shadow Infiltration. Atleast between trees in the same class you have (largely) the same abilities, it is simply rotations/priorities that are different.

 

I do not want to queue in group finder with a Guardian tank that 2 hours ago was a Sentinel and doesn't know what Sundering Strike is or how to manage threat. I do not want to queue with a Sage healer that 20 minutes ago was a Shadow and thinks Benevolence is good burst healing because it has a shorter cast time. I don't want to party with a Shadow that stealthed into the middle of a group and got seen because he leveled as a Sage and never learned how stealth works. Sure after a couple of weeks they might be awesome at it, but by then they could be (close to) 50 with a new character anyway.

 

The only things you lose by leveling a new character over changing AC are valor rank and gear. Gear will often need to be replaced anyway, sure some classes can use the same gear but some can't. In terms of Valor rank the only thing you lose is the ability to trade WZ comms for RWZ comms and a slice of ego.

 

A better solution would be to make your Valor rank tied to your legacy but I wouldn't be opposed to AC changes being available to playes below say level 25. That gives players a chance to try out an AC and change if they don't like it but doesn't end up with the above scenarios.

 

TL;DR: I'm ready for the insults because no one will actually respond logically.

 

How about this...Okay, hear me out..Ready? You can respec your advanced class...But ONLY if you have the other AC at max level on at least one toon from any server.

[Jazshen]

I would like an AC swap, myself. I have a Sith Sorc as my main; love healing, but not so fond of the DPS. I'd really like to have the option to swap over to Assassin occasionally to liven things up. But I can understand why that may never happen.

 

I have always thought that an AC swap would not be an issue if it was implemented in the following way:

 

- To swap AC's, you need to have 2 level 50 characters of the opposite AC's. So for example, a 50 Jedi Shadow, and a 50 Sith Sorcerer; a 50 Sage and Assassin; a 50 Sorcerer and Assassin...you see where I'm going. That way, it removes the 'you're too lazy to level 2 characters' part of the argument.

 

- On having the two level characters at 50, you then have to unlock via Legacy. Either by a quest chain, or a straight out purchase. And *it should not be cheap*. I'd find 5 million credits reasonable.

[CorellianWannabe]

Marauders wear medium armor. Juggs wear Heavy armore. Are you going to sit there and tell me that the skills and rotations are identicle?

 

As for the rest, you are wrong. There was an interview before launch. The devs said that they are different classes. They said they didnt have the resources to make story lines for 16 classes so this is what they chose to do to get 16 classes in game. EQ2 had a similar model where you picked your class later. Aion had a similar model where you pick your class later. This has all been beaten to death since before launch.

 

So a dps guardian and a sentinel won't use any of the same abilities, right?

 

So in other words despite years and millions of dollars they couldn't manage to create more than 15% unique content for classes, to be shared across 2 specs. I guess their fourth pillar started out on a shaky foundation.

 

If you pick it later it isn't a class-by that logic a bounty hunter that never specializes is classless, which obviously isn't the case.

[CorellianWannabe]

Going by that philosophy then why cant you turn your knight into a sith. Why cant you turn your BH into a Trooper. They are the same mechanics afterall.

 

I agree with that idea-it's not like the stories are integral to the game (if they were they would take up more than 15% or so of the missions).

[CorellianWannabe]

Mages and Warlocks are advanced classes of the unplayable Wizard class. Paladins and Warriors are advanced classes of the Knight class.

 

So by that logic druids are the advanced class of the jack-of-all-trades class, which apparently was cut in beta because Bioware thought 3 roles in one class was too overpowered?

[CorellianWannabe]

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

 

From the Feb 10th Q&A post, found right here on the SWTOR.com site.

 

So switching from dps to healing is cool (and according to past topics something that was expected at launch), but tanking to healing would be enough to cause ragequitting. Any particular reason? If Bounty Hunters could have performed all 3 roles from the start would that have been enough to cause ranting this extreme?

[CorellianWannabe]

My Guardian fights differently to my sentinal... because they are different classes.

 

So what classes were they before visiting the fleet? None?

[Raiffiel]

The minute they release a AC swap option, in cash shop or otherwise, I am done with this game. Once and for all. I am already looking at taking a break from it to go back to my other fav game, Lotro. Swapping sides ruined WoW for me, swapping classes would be no better.

[CorellianWannabe]

The minute they release a AC swap option, in cash shop or otherwise, I am done with this game. Once and for all. I am already looking at taking a break from it to go back to my other fav game, Lotro. Swapping sides ruined WoW for me, swapping classes would be no better.

 

Thanks for telling us-I'm sure Bioware will take your statement into account.

 

Feel free to go back to Middle-Earth, which apparently was full of spellcasters... sorry rune-keepers. And people complain about the butchering of lore in this game..

[Andryah]

Just stoping by to say.....

 

This thread is the energizer bunny of the forum at the moment. It just keeps going and going and going.

 

It's going nowhere... but it's still apparently going.

[CorellianWannabe]

Just stoping by to say.....

 

This thread is the energizer bunny of the forum at the moment. It just keeps going and going and going.

 

It's going nowhere... but it's still apparently going.

 

Much like the game itself..

[OHMYZOD]

I'm not gonna jump on here and say okay bye, go to Lord of the Rings. The goal is to get the game back on track and KEEP people playing/subbed. Honestly in 93 lvls of pvp I havent even played Pyro once on my Merc. Its been all healing or missiles. I wanna respec Powertech so I can go Advanced Prototype or check out shields with some Jetpack/Grapple business. Like an above post said they would like to check Assassins out after playing Sorc so long. If people had more options other than reroll timesinks youd see alot of ppl still playing...THEIR MAIN character.

[Khraizin]

Thanks for telling us-I'm sure Bioware will take your statement into account.

 

Funny I was about to say the same thing in regards to your request. Strange how things work sometimes.

[CorellianWannabe]

Funny I was about to say the same thing in regards to your request. Strange how things work sometimes.

 

Not my request-I'm just pointing out that advanced specs are not classes no matter how often people claim they are.

[Khraizin]

Not my request-I'm just pointing out that advanced specs are not classes no matter how often people claim they are.

 

They're not specs either. You can't compare them to either. They're apples, oranges and bananas.

[MajikMyst]

Not my request-I'm just pointing out that advanced specs are not classes no matter how often people claim they are.

 

Bioware claims they are and that is all that matters.. Bioware is the only one with the authority to make any kind of determination on what is or isn't a class..

 

Since there is no specific standard that can be applied to multiple games, what a class is or isn't is defined by the gaming company.. Not the gamers..

 

They are classes and you have no logical reason to say they are not classes.. Just the simple fact that you are not comfortable with the idea that you are actually asking for a class change.. Which flies against the idea of classes in the first place..

 

I doesn't matter how many times people claim they are not classes.. Bioware has said they are and that is all there is to it.. All you have to do is learn to live with it..

Edited August 6, 2012 by MajikMyst

[Master-Nala]

I'm not aware of ANY MMO that allows CLASS changes. Please enlighten me as to which ones do.

 

Everquest II

[Etheric]

Bioware claims they are and that is all that matters.. Bioware is the only one with the authority to make any kind of determination on what is or isn't a class..

 

Since there is no specific standard that can be applied to multiple games, what a class is or isn't is defined by the gaming company.. Not the gamers..

 

They are classes and you have no logical reason to say they are not classes.. Just the simple fact that you are not comfortable with the idea that you are actually asking for a class change.. Which flies against the idea of classes in the first place..

 

I doesn't matter how many times people claim they are not classes.. Bioware has said they are and that is all there is to it.. All you have to do is learn to live with it..

 

And if bioware changes their collective brain cell tomorrow, what then ? Will you learn to live with it ?

[EzoEo]

Everquest II

 

The last time I played you couldn't switch class but you could become good/evil version of that class.

 

Rangers could betray to assassins but they were still rogues and not wizards.

[Master-Nala]

Bioware claims they are and that is all that matters.. Bioware is the only one with the authority to make any kind of determination on what is or isn't a class..

 

Bioware also said the game wasn't going Free to Play months ago. Who cares what they said in the past, we know they used to be against this. The point is are they willing to make some more money now.

[Master-Nala]

The last time I played you couldn't switch class but you could become good/evil version of that class.

 

Rangers could betray to assassins but they were still rogues and not wizards.

 

A Ranger is a different class than an Assassin. A Paladin is a different class than a Shadowknight. If fact, there are more differences between Everquest II sub-classes than between the same branch advanced classes here. It is not just an alignment change. You turn into a different class with vastly different abilities, spells and options.

 

It's directly equivalent to what would happen if you could change ACs here. No one is asking to change from an Operative to a Sith Juggernaut. They are asking to go from an Operative to a Sniper, but remain Imperial Agents. Exactly how you describe the change in EQII, because that's exactly what's being asked for.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Master-Nala

[midnitemonster]

Bioware claims they are and that is all that matters.. Bioware is the only one with the authority to make any kind of determination on what is or isn't a class..

 

Since there is no specific standard that can be applied to multiple games, what a class is or isn't is defined by the gaming company.. Not the gamers..

 

They are classes and you have no logical reason to say they are not classes.. Just the simple fact that you are not comfortable with the idea that you are actually asking for a class change.. Which flies against the idea of classes in the first place..

 

I doesn't matter how many times people claim they are not classes.. Bioware has said they are and that is all there is to it.. All you have to do is learn to live with it..

 

Dude..What.. Is.. With.. All.. The.. Double.. Periods??

[ripster]

They are classes and you have no logical reason to say they are not classes...

From the FAQ

" In The Old Republic, every character class has its own story, unique companion characters that join and assist the player, and even thrilling space combat and player starships!"

 

Since there are only 8 sets of stories, unique characters, starships, etc there are only 8 class, not 16. Semantics aside, the only reason they don't do it is tech related. They don't want to develop the system for something they don't think enhances the game. Put an actual dollar estimate in front of them, and all of a sudden it is possible. $15 to change AC within the same base class and people won't be whining about it being abused (just people whining their new AC isn't any better).

[EzoEo]

A Ranger is a different class than an Assassin. A Paladin is a different class than a Shadowknight. If fact, there are more differences between Everquest II sub-classes than between the same branch advanced classes here. It is not just an alignment change. You turn into a different class with vastly different abilities, spells and options.

 

It's directly equivalent to what would happen if you could change ACs here. No one is asking to change from an Operative to a Sith Juggernaut. They are asking to go from an Operative to a Sniper, but remain Imperial Agents. Exactly how you describe the change in EQII, because that's exactly what's being asked for.

 

Changing class to me would Ranger to Paladin since Assassin is still a rogue so really it's the same class as Dirge etc.

 

Much the same in SW:TOR as a Knight will always be a Knight it's sub-class that you pick at level 10 which makes any real difference.

 

You have to consider the multi-function classes like Smuggle and Consular who can be tanks/healers and how it would effect gameplay balance.

Edited August 6, 2012 by EzoEo