I lodged a support ticket and received a very similar response. In my case, I returned to the game and bought the Join the Fight bundle that was advertised as the best way to re'Join the Fight' and then bought a recurring sub as soon as the game time lapsed. It feels pretty rough to have been subscribed for basically 99.x% of the window (including the critical start and end dates) but to miss out for the sake of a few hours in the middle. Customer service have been pretty helpful and said they were raising it to the dev team for me but not sure where that will go. @JackieKo and @KeithKanneg, keen for some form of resolution, even if that's just a CC refund on a couple of transfers or a goodwill credit to let us make a couple of transfers.

Glad to be of assistance.

I don't think that's actually the case or on certain bosses (like Titan 6 and Bonethrasher) you would be leaping inside the boss model. In my experience Leap (and Zealous Leap) tend to put you at the edge of the boss/mob model which for certain bosses is very close to the melee/ranged distinction for threat.

It'll be a real shame to see you go Kitru. We may not have agreed on all that much but your posts helped me become a better tank and player and for that I thank you. I hope that the developers realize what you and the community have been telling them about the current state of Shadows in time to see you stay but I honestly don't hold much faith in that happening. I hope you find as much enjoyment theory crafting and rolling (see what I did there) in the world of PnP. You will be missed. - Gralleh

If you play well, all of them. Threat is seriously easy these days.

Actually, failing to reflect 1 or 2 abilities per activation isn't an issue when you realise that simply *ACTIVATING* the ability generates over 8k threat on everything within 30m. Add into that, threat built from a reflected ability is equal to the BASE damage for the ability (not the reflected damage) modified by Soresu form. Reflecting Scream from the TFB builds almost 40k threat despite only reflecting ~4800 damage. As a threat tool, Saber Reflect is honestly OP. There are literally pulls in this game where I leap in, hit Saber Reflect and just go AFK.

It depends how you look at Saber Reflect. Personally I view it as a defensive CD so as long as I avoid the damage I'm happy, if its reflected back at them: that's a bonus. If you view it as an offensive CD where the goal is to return damage to the attacker first and the avoid the damage second then there is arguably an issue.

Funny you say that. Most of the time I run with a Strength stim and only pop the Endurance one around the 30s mark in high damage fights like Thrasher HM or Writhing Horror NiM. I'm a Biochem so I've got no downside to doing that. With the augments there are no 'rules' as to what to use. Look at your stat budget w.r.t. KBN or dipstik's threads and use your augments to bring you closer to ideal. That is likely to be (at most) 1-2 Shield augments at higher budgets and then the rest as Defence/Absorb ones depending on your other gear. If you have lots of Defence already it'll be 4-8 Absorb ones and if you have plenty of Absorb already it'll be 8-10 Defence ones.

They're (arguably) BiS until the new Kell Dragon Tier so I'd aug them.

Yeah you should be fine then. You're numbers are slightly below mine when I started HM TFB post 2.0. You might want to bring your Absorb a little bit next and try pick up the Veracity Implants and Earpiece then you should be fine. The implants/ear don't usually cost too much.

Except that the thread was about PvP. Re. proc damage relics in PvE, that's 1-1.5% more damage. Not amazing but not something to sneeze at. From memory the BiS is SA and a Damage proc but most people run the Boundless Ages (myself included) because it gives you the increase when you need it and if you have downtime its value increases.

Are you augmented? If you're with good (and/or overgeared) healers you'll be fine for both HMs.

Defended/Resisted/Miss hits are still not reflected but the animation will play for every hit you receive while Saber Reflect is active, even for melee hits and miss/defend/resisted attacks.

Given you're in PvP gear I assume you are PvPing. In which case Fort Augs are worth using for the longer TTK, if you're using PvP gear to PvE you're wasting oh so many mitigation points anyway. If you choose to use the mitigation augs in PvP just match it up to KBN/dipstik's threads. If you're ignoring Defence (as in the title) then it'll be something like 2-3 Shield augs and the rest as Absorb.

Well done! Glad its going well for you

It's going fine. I actually have the lowest HP on my raid team now and the healers have no issues! On the other hand, my Shadow co-tank with 38k+ HP is still dropping like a stone on WH NiM.

Gear wise you are fine. Unfortunately the 55s are a real eye opener the first time you run them and if you're learning to tank, they're the school of hard knocks. You'll learn or die. Personally, I'd suggest duoing some of the 50 HMs with a guild healer (not group finder) and your DPS companions to get the hang of keeping aggro off the healer and practice some of the trash tactics I mentioned in the guide. If you want to jump straight into 55 HMs just mention to the group that you're newish to tanking and they'll usually be a lot more lenient. Also remember which pulls other tanks have called for CC on (and pay attention to which mobs specifically) and understand why they wanted that particular mob in that particular pull CCed. For me, it was usually the ones that cast Heat Beam since its an Elemental attack and/or the ones on the edge so we can still AoE. Different tanks like different things CCed so just get comfortable.

Ironically, multiple bosses doesn't actually mean more time at sub 30%. If it was 1 boss with the combined HP total it would have the same effective contribution. The only difference is you have 3 shorter execute phases with a break(ish) in between rather than 1 longer one.

If there is enough downtime for Merciless stacks to fall off (and Juyo as a result) you're back at square one winding up again. Combat loves forced downtime since you'd normally only be using fillers between Precision windows in that time anyway. It also lets the ICD on HoJ tick down so you can go straight back into back to back PS windows when you get back on target. Ops Chief has cover so can't be leaped to. I dunno if its still the case by phase 2 TFB also used to be immune to leap. Losing access to it means you lose 4 Focus generation every 12 seconds.

Or it proves that there is a massive abundance of DPS and healers. Tanks use a completely different set of gear from either DPS or Healers so while those roles are largely interchangeable with a simple respec, a tank requires a whole new set of gear. Further, when soloing, tanks hit like little girls so clearing stuff can take ages. The funny thing about finding tanks for 55 HMs is that most tanks either run them with their guild to get their weekly or get no benefit from them. It is stupid easy to get fully geared as a tank (I was full 69's by the end of early access) and once you're past that point the only incentive you have to run 55 HMs is the 3x weekly. Personally I think it was a bad decision on BW's part to reduce the incentive for tanks to queue. Your final points comes across as "ner nee ner I'm right and you're wrong *blows raspberry*". Really mature.

Saber Reflect and Resilience have a little over lap but apply to dfiferent sets of abilities. That is exactly how they should interact, both useful sometimes and sometimes not. You've suggested they have their self healing reduced because they are too reliant on 'reactive' mitigation. I never said this was a bad thing I said that self healing (and "is this the right CD to use") are about the extent of Shadow tanking 'skill'. Apparently thats like walking into a church and blaspheming given your response. I agree here. I've levelled both an Assassin and a Shadow as well as using my Shadow extensively at end game. I'm not some newbie troll here. I never said it takes skill to play a Guardian post 2.0 outside of CD usage. I said it doesn't take that much skill to play a Shadow by comparison. The normal arguments for Shadow 'complexity' are "but I have to watch a load of procs". 2 of those are signified by an ability lighting up, one is largely time based and the last one is the core of the rotation. Hell, there is so much force now that you almost never have to worry about resources while tanking. Off tanking with a Shadow is (rotationally) much more complicated than actively tanking with a Shadow thanks to the huge reduction in force regen and actually having to look for the Shadow Strike proc since the ability is usually lit up. In my experience, the extra situational awareness Shadows require is simply "can I stand still for 3 seconds?". Extra raid knowledge is about on par with Guardian's using Saber Reflect: "Oh something is being cast, I'll try Resilience. Hmm... that didn't work, next time I'll use Deflection." While Guardian is universally applicable there are benefits to using the right one at the right time, conversely Shadows are just penalized for using the wrong one. Personally I think its about even but I prefer the Guardian method. Bonuses for using the right thing are (IMO) better than penalties for using the wrong one. Good Guardians have the same questions Shadows do, we just aren't penalized for getting it wrong. If its a F/T attack its better to use Warding Call than Saber Ward and if its a M/R attack the opposite is true. Yes, I get some benefit regardless of which I use but I get MORE benefit if I use the right one. As I said above the ONLY difference is that I'm rewarded for my 'skill' (its really not hard for either tank) whereas you would be penalized for getting it wrong. In that same patch you got a new actually useful CD in Battle Readiness. You got 100% more 'CD usage' on M/R attacks and 50% more on F/T. Guardians got 20% more up time on both Warding Call and Saber Ward as well as Saber Reflect. Current content consists of 12 Ops bosses, 1 Instanced boss and 1 Bonus boss. Including older content adds 12 more Ops bosses, 2 World Bosses and 1 Instanced boss. Not only does including those double our sample size for comparing mechanics. It also highlights that content design has more of an effect on who is "king tank" than abilities. EC is a prime example of this, Resilience is way better than Saber Reflect there and when new Ops come out the balance between the 2 will vary. Current content is actually remarkably even between the 2. Arguably everything CD amenable is a "healer" pressure mechanic then raid wide or not, since you know, they're the ones actually healing it. Avoiding a large hit (regardless of its just on me or on everyone) *IS* useful in the same way that popping a CD when there is increased raid damage is useful. As I said, I include old content MECHANICS because it more than doubles the pool of mechanics to compare. Does including those help my argument? Yes, in the same way that simply discounting them as "obsolete" helps yours. EC was remarkably friendly to Shadows compared to the other tanks and we may or may not see that design style return in future content. I believe simply discounting it as 'old content' is wrong. I haven't tested Guardian Leap while rooted but you certainly can't use Force Leap while rooted. To be honest though, I don't mind that Guardians are the worst option for Sunder, I find kiting him for several minutes to be mind numbing so letting my co-tank take care of it works for me. I disagree on the TFB thing. If my Shadow can take no damage for the preceding 5+ seconds and be topped off when Scream occurs its not going to kill me. If my Guardian can avoid the Scream (but he still gets the debuff) its about the same, the spike won't kill me. Both have an easy time with the mechanic they just deal with it in different ways. Ops Chief, yes its markedly easier on a Guardian. I can avoid the first 3 Terminates completely while any one of those might outright kill a Shadow. Does that mean my Guardian is OP? No, it means the content needs to be redesigned. Even without Saber Reflect I can still avoid any of those if I'm low thanks to Blade Turning. How is avoiding that one mechanic much different than Shadows previously being able to ignore NiM Kephess' DoT or completely negate Xeno's Thermal Tolerance? Hell, that's not even a mechanic that's likely to kill a Guardian and even discounting Reflect your Shadow is *STILL* going to struggle there. It also seems important to remind you that Reflect only affects the damage from an ability, any secondary effects (Scream debuff, knockback, etc) still take place so Guardian's are avoiding damage, not mechanics. I won't deny that baseline Guardian tanking is WAY easier than it was, ironically you were also one of the biggest proponents of simplifying the Guardian attack string. Some trash pulls are literally just "Leap -> Reflect -> /sit". Getting the most out of Guardian tanking? That's slightly below Shadow thanks to their reliance on self healing. Guardians are still the worst at kiting and without Reflect, things outside 4m can still be a real pain. Vanguards are meant to be simple, giving them complex CDs works against that core concept. I don't like the 50% resist chance for the same reason you hate Ops Chief on your Shadow, it has the potential to put you in a 'resist or die' coin flip situation. Simplicity is good. They have 1 CD and 1 "kinda" CD. It would be better if Reactive Shield was still at its 15s duration. Doubling the uptime is about the same as giving them a second CD with similar effect, it just means they can't stack or stagger them. I love the way you always take the numbers from what I say and not the concept. This is why I usually avoid putting actual numbers in. Keep in mind that with the existing 5% damage debuff the actual effect of the proposed change would only debuff damage by a further 20% and as always, this is not a change proposed in isolation. Either upping the CD to 2 minutes and/or dropping the duration would be required. Also this I am not suggesting this be combined with the above Reactive Shield change. Changing from accuracy debuff to damage debuff suits the Vanguard playstyle. Simple and universally effective while not being 'cheesy'. It also Giving them a Resilience like effect doesn't suit the Vanguard at all. Also given that Vanguards are already the weakest tanks when dealing with I/E damage it would help lower that gap. With F/T K/E damage it might actually give Vanguards a niche or at the very least move people away from the "Shadow + Guardian as universally best tank combo" view.

I disagree, tanking is fun and challenging but it is a little backwards. Trash is the toughest thing to tank while bosses are quite simple. Of course, if you get an overzealous DPS or a poor healer being a (non-Shadow) tank can really suck but that's why I run with guildies most of the time. Now poorly played or geared tanks trying 55 HMs are just going to get eaten alive and I like that

Pretty much this. At some point crit will be worth more than power thanks to multiplicity but I was under the impression that was a couple of tiers off. A source would be greatly appreciated. In terms of the rotation you mentioned earlier I find I get better numbers with (forgive Sentinel terms): Leap -> Zealous Slash -> Precision Slash + Zen + Valorous + Inspiration + Relic + Adrenal -> Blade Rush x3 -> (procced) Blade Storm. Thats usually procced Slaughter/HoJ so its into Precision Slash -> Master Strike -> Dispatch. The odds of proccing Slaughter before your first PS and wasting it are only ~15% with that rotation but with the Leap -> Zealous -> Blade Rush -> PS -> Master Strike -> Blade Storm option you have a 45% chance to proc Slaughter/HoJ early and waste PS.

As someone in the same situation as Aurojin, who has just been forced off our lovely 30ms ping servers to ones on the opposite side of the world with 200+ms ping, if a fight requires such tight DPS that our loss in DPS due to latency prevents us from clearing it then it should be reduced. That said, I've only noticed the latency have an effect during Zen on my Combat Sentinel (where latency is 25% of the GCD) and when popping sequential CDs like Zen -> Valorous Call -> Inspiration, the rest of the time it seems negligible. Hell, I didn't notice any loss of DPS on my Vanguard but that's not a 'high' DPS class anymore. Also, while I'm all for nightmare being stupidly hard, I'd like it to be possible with any combination of classes. Unfortunately with current class balance that means that anyone using Gunslingers and Sentinels as DPS with Shadow tanks is going to have a much easier time enrage wise. EDIT: just to be clear, I'm not saying nerf it. I'm just saying I can see where Aurojin is coming from.

There are 2 options here. Either balance it at the top/moderate end (NiM TFB/S&V) which makes self healing OP in low damage encounters, or balance it at the lower end (SM Ops/FPs) which makes it almost worthless in high damage encounters. I also use a CD here (usually relic/arenal or another non-clutch CD), not because the damage WH does changes (it doesn't) but there is a lot more raid damage happening between the adds and the Jealous Male so making the healers job easier while that's happening is of benefit. My raid uses that distribution of labor unless there is a need for tank swaps, as does Kitru's IIRC. I vary my CD usage depending on the fight, for some I use proactively or to deal with certain mechanics (WH, Ops Chief, Dread Guard, Op IX, TFB, Cartel Warlords, Styrak) and for some fights I use them re-actively (Thrasher, Dash'roode). In either situation I have a CD available whenever I want/need to use it so cycling CDs between tanks isn't needed, joys of being a Guardian I suppose. The only time we do cycle CDs is when burning down Tu'chuk last or when dealing with Sunder's The End ability. I agree completely and conversely a Guardian who uses his CDs proactively will take oodles less damage than a Vanguard who holds them in reserve. It really depends how you view CDs though. Are they intended to save you from a **** hit the fan moment or are they intended to reduce total damage taken across the encounter? If both tanks are using them with the same ideology then the Guardian wins both times. If they're using them with different ideologies you can't really compare since they are both achieving their own goals while (potentially) failing at the alternative goal. As an aside, TFB's Scream is actually a single target attack against everyone on the tanks platform, not an AoE hence why Saber Reflect works.