ATTN: Bioware - How to not kill PVP

[Brotharewt]

Issues:

1.Gear Based vs. Skill Based PVP

• 
  Hard to get started for fresh 50s
  

• 
  Large advantage for better geared players
  

2. Pre-made groups vs. Pick up groups

• 
  Pre-mades will win most (not all) games vs. Pick up groups
  

3. Slow queues for Ranked Warzones

• 
  30min+ wait times for ranked games
  

• 
  Can join unranked WZ while waiting (contributing to problem 2 above)
  

4. Lack of meaningful Open World PVP

• 
  No worthwhile rewards for running around looking for PVP
  

5. Expertise Stat advantage

• 
  Equal gear and skill - Expertise stat will always win
  

 

Solutions:

Warzones:

1. Eliminate all gear based stats in both Ranked and Unranked warzones

• 
  This includes the Expertise stat
  

• 
  All players receive the same stats based on class; Sniper and Gunslinger = exact same stats. (other than talent tree provided stats)
  

• 
  All unranked warzones to include levels 10-50
  Effects:
  

• 
  Removes the major advantage of pre-made, high geared groups
  

• 
  Eliminates the difficulty of starting out in PVP warzones
  

• 
  Provides a level playing field where; Skill, tactics and talents win games, not gear
  

2. Set times for Ranked Warzones

• 
  1-3AM_7-9AM_1-3PM_7-9PM - for example
  Effects:
  

• 
  Shorten queue times for Ranked warzones
  

3. Create an active score board, updated in real time, for 'bragging rights' of Ranked warzone teams

4. Warzones (R & U) provide reward commendations which can be used to purchase items such as:

• 
  High level mods for weapons and armor. For levels 10,15,20,25 and so on vs. current 20-40-50
  

• 
  Armor shells of various types; Sandpeople suit, Classic Storm Trooper, Slave Girl, Darth Vader, Wookie Costume etc
  

• 
  Fleet passes
  

• 
  Home world passes
  

 

Open World PVP:

1. All gear based stats and bonuses intact while in OWP

2. Create a real reason for OWP

• 
  Players awarded WorldPVP coms based on acomlishments
  Capturing an objective
  Killing another player (each player has a point value, the more times that player is killed, the less points are awarded for killing them)
  Earning 5 solo kills in one day
  etc
  

• 
  Each day the faction controlling area X for the longest time is awarded 1 FactionWorldPVP Com
  These Coms can be used to purchase extremely rare items
  Name Change Deeds
  Sex Change Deeds
  Advanced Class Change Deeds
  Ship Upgrades (Legacy type add-ons)
  Unique Gear
  etc
  

3. Create a hue'd effect on the world based on the results of World PVP of a long period of time;

• 
  Empire wins %90+ of the daily battle over areas for one month, the Sky, buildings, plant life, animals take on a 'Dark' sort of look. For example
  

 

 

This would create an environment where World PVP had value, low geared players had the chance to get gear in a fair environment, and players could show off their PVP accomplishments with ease.

It would also help show a 'struggle' for the galaxy type effect that would foster teamwork between factions (maybe...?)

Also (hopefully) stop some of the whining on the forums about classes being overpowered/underpowered, you want a fair fight? Go do a Warzone.

 

Thoughts?

-Brotharewt

Edited July 26, 2012 by Brotharewt

[fujeo-finel]

Rank players by class.

[Daiyukie]

How is having a set timeframe for Ranked going to improve the queues? o.0?

[ChickenWangs]

I like the suggestions HOWEVER I believe expertise must remain. Champion and Centurion gear needs to be re-added to the game with updated expertise to make the PvP ladder more bearable. Ranked Wzs do not need times to play, but special events could be held on certain days like 20% more comms ect.

[BennyKrak]

I'm sorry but I fail to see why Issue no. 2: Premades vs. Pick-up groups is even on the list. The fact that pre-made groups generally all use a chat program (eg. Vent, Mumble, TS3) enables them to have better organisation and reaction to changes in the gameplay from the enemy team. Why is this classified as an issue when it's essentially just people using these programs to their advantage?

Besides, I hardly see how restricting ranked matches to certain times will even change this at all, because if you aren't aware, people group up in pre-mades for normal warzones as well..

 

I also completely disagree with your first solution with respect to removing gear-based stats. What would there be for people to aspire to in PvP if there are no rewards for their playtime if there is no gear upgrades? That is the whole reason of the grind itself, for people to get the best gear, at which point, there is a level playing field. I agree that the curve of gearing from being a fresh level 50 in recruit gear to a full aug'd WH geared player is extremely steep and possibly something could be done to reduce that. But removing the expertise system and gear stats is definitely not the way to go about it in my opinion.

I wouldn't mind seeing something where your gear score is averaged and you are put in warzones with people with a similar gear score, reducing the occurrence of recruit geared people being put up against war hero geared people. This solution of course if implemented by itself would not be effective, but would become more effective with the implementation of cross-server PvP matches as the number of players queued in each gear score bracket would be dramatically increased.

 

As for your statement regarding expertise stat always winning; this isn't always the case. There is a scoundrel healer on my server (Dalborra) who runs around in warzones in mostly rakata and Black Hole gear (no expertise rating at all, but still all augmented) who always tops healing with at least 600-700k healing and rarely ever dies because his heal output is so much higher. Throw a guard on him by a geared tank and he is very hard to kill. Expertise rating is important but in certain instances, people can get away without it, or with reduced ratings on it.

Edited July 26, 2012 by BennyKrak

[Brotharewt]

Having set times for for ranked warzones would allow people a time frame to plan to be available for them, more people on at the same time = more ranked warzones.

 

 

BennyKrak -

Premades vs. Pick-ups - Is not really an issue for me, but it is for several people on this forum. But if you notice i did not say anything about getting rid of premade groups.

They would be addressed by balancing stats in warzones, so that having your premade group would be less of an impact. Right now, premade groups are usually made up of high geared players. This fact will become irreverent if gear based stats are removed and the premade group will likely still win most game, but it will be from skill and teamwork rather than high ranking gear. Thats kind of the whole point.

 

"As for your statement regarding expertise stat always winning; this isn't always the case"

My example was with 2 players with equal skill and gear (minus expertise for one obviously) in which case, yes, expertise would always win.

 

 

 

BennyKrak & ChickenWangs -

Gear Based Stats - Removing these would be for warzones only. Open World PVP would use all gear based stats including expertise.

Want a fair playing field? Join a warzone

Want anything goes? Go do Open World PVP

[Sungas]

Hate all the suggestions.

 

All of them.

 

Pay your dues and buck up. Earn your keep.

 

No one is going to stick around for a game where laziness rules the day.

 

You want to compete?

 

Earn your gear like everyone else does. It means gettting smacked in the face...a bunch. Every player that regularly beats you went through it. Every WH geared player you see died a thousand painful deaths to get there. To get a free ride is like spitting on the graves of SW's version Arlington cemetary.

 

Learn to play. That means learn how to get your gear as well.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Sungas

[ArchangelLBC]

Gear level is not why premades roll up pugs. Premades roll up pugs because they have better organization, communication, and teamwork from working with the same people on a regular basis.

 

 

Gear scores etc for matchmaking makes sense but only with cross server queues. Otherwise it will just be long queue times for everyone.

[babykahna]

no.1 doesnt make sense to me. If expertise is removed then why have pvp gear? Heck then I'd rather be wearing full pve gear because those stats would be far superior. You would instantly gimp every person who doesn't wish to grind pve by forcing them to either pve or lose to those who are better geared pve wise. Removing of expertise just makes zero sense.

 

 

your suggestion about certain times for rankeds also doesn't make sense. This server operates 24/7 for the most part aside from maintenance and certain people I know, have to go off by 7pm EST...You limit their time frame for a game they PAY to play. If thats the case I see no reason for their subscriptions.

[Pucks]

When it comes to PvP, I'm much more interested in which team has better players than which team spends more time farming comms.

[NoTomorrow]

I doubt developers can commit to all the things that original poster proposed, BUT surely they can do this:

 

Do NOT add new PvP gear!!!!

Edited July 26, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Daikeru]

"As for your statement regarding expertise stat always winning; this isn't always the case"

My example was with 2 players with equal skill and gear (minus expertise for one obviously) in which case, yes, expertise would always win.

 

"Equal gear" yet somehow they're different ... So PvE vs PvP gear? Yea, that's one of the purposes of Expertise, to differentiate PvE gear from PvP gear.

[Brotharewt]

R-E-A-D-I-N-G C-O-M-P-R-E-H-E-N-S-I-O-N

 

I am not saying anyone shouldn't "pay their dues"

I am not saying expertise should removed altogether

and i am not saying the times for RWZ is set in stone...

 

All gear and expertise stats and bonuses would apply in World PVP but in Warzones its a level field.

 

Simple

[Daikeru]

Solutions > Warzones > 4 ~ That's social gear is it not?

[Elkirin]

I have zero difficulty with newer players catching up in gear faster, I do not require newer players to go through the same chase I have made, I would prefer them to enjoy playing, then maybe we would get some queues pop on asia -pacific servers.

 

I do believe some players prefer a gear chase, I do but do not expect the same should be demanded of anyone else. I would be happy with unique appearance gear.

[Talsyrius]

Interesting suggestions, and nice lay out on your post. However, I must say most of them are impossible to successfully implement. A big part of what keeps players paying, is the gear grind. People say they don't like it, but having a goal motivate them to keep playing, and that is what, as a game company, they need us to do. So the gear grind will always be there in some form, be it for vanity or for better stats.

However, I most certainly agree with you that the difference in gear is way to big. In my opinion, recruit gear could have same "normal" stats as war hero, and only have the expertise differ, so there is still some gain from getting war hero, but not to the point where a war hero geared player have more then half hp left when the recruit geared player dies in a 1 on 1... If all stats where same, and all that differed was like 5% in pvp damage boost and damage reduction for each tier, it would be a lot more balanced and fun for newcomers, while still incentivize people to grind for gear.

This would also alleviate the situation with the ranked queues not popping, because they would be more accessible to everyone, and not just those who farmed for days and days to get the best gear.

 

Also, gear needs to be modifiable to fit to what spec you are running. For example, a lethality sniper don't need nearly as much accuracy as a marksman one, and a rage juggernaut needs huge numbers in to power and surge to be able to perform well. Giving everyone the same stats would fit some classes a lot more then others.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Talsyrius

[Lovia]

you look like you wanna play guild wars, sir, try that out and see you again in 3-4 months.

[So-low]

R-E-A-D-I-N-G C-O-M-P-R-E-H-E-N-S-I-O-N

 

I am not saying anyone shouldn't "pay their dues"

I am not saying expertise should removed altogether

and i am not saying the times for RWZ is set in stone...

 

All gear and expertise stats and bonuses would apply in World PVP but in Warzones its a level field.

 

Simple

 

It is not a reading comprehension problem, it is your lack of explaining what should be done instead.

 

So, remove expertise from warzones is your suggestion. Then what would be the motivation for players to que up for a warzone, if not to earn gear with more expertise/stats so they can perform better? No one, except apparantly you, would que up for a warzone "just for the fun of it". We as players need to feel like we are accomplishing something and getting rewarded for our efforts. Right now, the only reason 90% of people que for any warzone, is to earn commendations to get gear. We all want to be the full War Hero Augmented PVP monsters with huge expertise that other players fear.

 

This whole game is about progression. If there is no progression in warzones, no one will bother.

 

Now, it kind of sounds like you want this game to go from a PVP warzone mindset into a full out Open World PVP mindset. This will never, ever, work. Too many people simply do not have enough time to log in and travel to planets and try and find people to kill. This is why warzones are so convenient. You can log in, que up, and be in a warzone and earning rewards within minutes.

[Talsyrius]

Also, the point of having expertise is not for the sake of the pvpers, but so that the pve people can feel like snowflakes with their gear. If pvp gear had the same stats as the pve gear, all their "hard" work in pve would be worth the same as the days and days (playtime) of grinding pvp is, which would be... bad.

And the concept of having to pve in order to be good in pvp is something that a lot of people would be against, at least if I am to believe what I read about that in wow... Although I wouldn't really mind that either

[Rassuro]

I doubt developers can commit to all the things that original poster proposed, BUT surely they can do this:

 

Do NOT add new PvP gear!!!!

The problem is that if they don't add new PVP gear but keep adding new PVE gear, eventually we'll get to a point where in order to have good gear in Warzones you need to play high level PVE content.

 

In my opinion, what I want to see is expertise should give the same boost to both damage, damage reduction, and healing, because as it is currently the better gear players get the bigger the DPS advantage will become and TTK will just keep getting shorter.

 

Secondly I want to see the time spent to get gear be reduced significantly. Spending a lot of time playing the game should not make you a better player by giving you the best gear, it should make you a better player by you actually improving your own skill.

 

If there is no progression in warzones, no one will bother.

Are you really saying that you think the gameplay is so terrible that no one would play if there wasn't a virtual carrot?

 

Wow, I don't know what's worse, how poor your opinion on the game is, or how easy you are making it for MMO companies to get you to spend money without having to worry about gameplay.

 

you look like you wanna play guild wars, sir, try that out and see you again in 3-4 months.

Oh wow how great that you mention GW2, I've never heard of that game before and I bet there are a lot of other people who haven't either, you are so helpful!

Edited July 26, 2012 by Rassuro

[babykahna]

It is not a reading comprehension problem, it is your lack of explaining what should be done instead.

 

So, remove expertise from warzones is your suggestion. Then what would be the motivation for players to que up for a warzone, if not to earn gear with more expertise/stats so they can perform better? No one, except apparantly you, would que up for a warzone "just for the fun of it". We as players need to feel like we are accomplishing something and getting rewarded for our efforts. Right now, the only reason 90% of people que for any warzone, is to earn commendations to get gear. We all want to be the full War Hero Augmented PVP monsters with huge expertise that other players fear.

 

This whole game is about progression. If there is no progression in warzones, no one will bother.

 

Now, it kind of sounds like you want this game to go from a PVP warzone mindset into a full out Open World PVP mindset. This will never, ever, work. Too many people simply do not have enough time to log in and travel to planets and try and find people to kill. This is why warzones are so convenient. You can log in, que up, and be in a warzone and earning rewards within minutes.

 

 

exactly.

 

to say expertise should work in world pvp but not in warzones? then what the heck is the point of wearing pvp gear to warzones? isn't better to just wear pve gear? Then this game would simply die because the pvp crowd who don't wish to pve would simply just leave.

[So-low]

Are you really saying that you think the gameplay is so terrible that no one would play if there wasn't a virtual carrot?

 

Wow, I don't know what's worse, how poor your opinion on the game is, or how easy you are making it for MMO companies to get you to spend money without having to worry about gameplay.

 

The gameplay is not terrible, in fact I really like it. However, I do not see myself or my friends playing the same warzones over and over every day without soemthing to aspire to. If the Devs were to implement the OP's suggestions, THEN my opinion of the game would liekly be poor, at least from a PVP standpoint. Also, gameplay, especially when it comes to PVP class balancing is a whole other issue. I am talking now about merely an efforts vs rewards standpoint.

 

You take away rewards, you take away progression. You take away progression, you take away the motivation go keep playing and comign back, and the dream of being the leet PVP king who destroys noobs by looking at them. Heck, even run of the mill First Person Shooters have item progression and unlocks, why wouldnt a Massive Multiplayer Online game have it?

 

I do not believe that my opinion that a vast majority of gamers would prefer having their efforts rewarded by making them better, by setting themselves apart from the recruit armor freshies, is = to me having an opinion that the game sucks.

 

Also, I do not beleive I or any other respectable gamer is being exploited or is easily pleased by anything. I pay my dues to the Devs because I like all of the content, be it PVP or PVE.

[Rassuro]

having their efforts rewarded by making them better

Giving them better gear for participating, you mean.

 

Heck, even run of the mill First Person Shooters have item progression and unlocks, why wouldnt a Massive Multiplayer Online game have it?

Flawed comparison.

The two major things that you forget when you make that comparison are that the difference in usefulness between gear you unlock at different levels is significantly smaller in FPS, and reaching max level is significantly faster.

 

In Black Ops, the best gun in the game is unlocked at level 14 (out of 50), and this is one of the criticisms that the hardcore playerbase had about the game. The criticism is not that it's unlocked too soon, it's that ideally there should be no gun that's flat out better than any other, they should all just be different.

Still, that gun is only very slightly better than the worst gun of that type. A bad player with the best gun still has no chance against a good player with the worst gun, because this kind of system puts player skill first.

 

If your idea is true that players need the constant carrot of knowing that if they spend a lot of time in the game they will be given gear that makes them completely overpowered against a new player of equal skill, then why is Call of Duty selling 10-15 million copies every year of what is essentially an expansion? Again, you are the one who started making FPS comparisons...

[Siorac]

This is an RPG. Taking away gear optimization, playing around with stats and attributes is, in my opinion, a bad thing. It's not an FPS, not an action game - it's an RPG where your character's stats and attributes and abilities are the most important. That's how it should be.

 

There are plenty of FPS and action games on the market which are primarily skill based. Try and play those instead of an RPG.

[calendrapro]

ATTN: Bioware - How to destroy PVP

 

Fixed.