PowerTechs: Less damage, MORE FUN!

[TheGreatFrosty]

yes but the pt is NOT a melee class Noone said that beside the op.

 

OK I'm with you. I've never really considered it to be so, either. Always called it a hybrid instead.

 

The melee argument is just one that a lot of the spec's defenders bring up to explain away the higher burst potential.

[Twor]

Seriously struggling to follow the flow of your argument, maybe it's just me.

 

Railshot can only be done every 15 seconds? Not have its cooldown reset on a 6 second internal CD?

 

What do you mean by 'an escape'? What escape does say, a gunslinger or commando have? And on a 15 second cooldown?

 

I'm not trying to berate you, I'm just confused.

 

He means TD with the CD, RS is only half of it.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Twor

[NoTomorrow]

Who are these ppl making nerf pt threads? Those are definitevely not snipers and not marauders, and for sure not assassins. So we got the same sorcs whining over and over again.. Geeesh guys, with so much time staying on the forums instead of playing no doubt why are you so terrible. Edited July 16, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[sithterror]

Logical arguments like the OP will be received with disdain by people like this.

 

The bottom line is, only a few Powertechs will have the integrity to admit the class' strengths (damage) and shortcomings (linear rotation and lacking in excitement).

 

Most people are just having too good of a time being misconstrued as a good player, supported by the powerful spec.

 

For what it's worth though, the post was a good read.

 

The idea behind the post is not my issue. It's good to have players zeal for their AC fall on deaf ears but be subject to forum disdain.

 

The changes are a nerf. Less damage by half, less range by 20 does not make for a fun melee class, plus the fact those 3 abilities would be used identical to how they are now.

 

The other main point being raised is bad players. I play a PT Pyro, Gun Salinger, Sorc and Assassin....I admit we have strengths and weaknesses like every class does.

There are good troopers and pros that trade deaths by 100's of health and marauders too. Then there are those that I can beat in 10 globals. Yes they have recruit-bm gear or the wh guys don't notice the extra dots from a ranged.

 

Part of my point is if I can play my full BM, 3 price WH sorc and kill a Pyro or Mara before they kill me or bring them down to 5k health with no help then it isn't the spec being over powered. The spec is being used right by the player vs a BAD player who needs to L2P better

[TheGreatFrosty]

The idea behind the post is not my issue. It's good to have players zeal for their AC fall on deaf ears but be subject to forum disdain.

 

The changes are a nerf. Less damage by half, less range by 20 does not make for a fun melee class, plus the fact those 3 abilities would be used identical to how they are now.

 

The other main point being raised is bad players. I play a PT Pyro, Gun Salinger, Sorc and Assassin....I admit we have strengths and weaknesses like every class does.

There are good troopers and pros that trade deaths by 100's of health and marauders too. Then there are those that I can beat in 10 globals. Yes they have recruit-bm gear or the wh guys don't notice the extra dots from a ranged.

 

Part of my point is if I can play my full BM, 3 price WH sorc and kill a Pyro or Mara before they kill me or bring them down to 5k health with no help then it isn't the spec being over powered. The spec is being used right by the player vs a BAD player who needs to L2P better

 

I understand what you're saying, and I wasn't saying I necessarily agree with the entirety of the OP. However, to provide one example of how X player can beat a Pyro on X class doesn't make the pyro not overpowered.

 

It's all about class balance as a relative measurement of the class' overall potential damage, defense mitigation and utility. If someone says to you "I want to play a class that would be welcomed in rated and compete at the highest level", what do you answer?. My guild runs with a Commando who is brilliant and does incredibly well, so he is welcomed. This is however just one case.

 

On a whole, a Commando would not be welcomed and in the above hypothetical scenario the best advise would be to go a class such as Pyro. This warrants close attention, and certainly goes against the argument for the game's current balance.

 

Statistics that have been released by guilds have shown how much higher the number of PT / Sentinels are over other classes. I don't want to play rated games against 4 Pyro teams, and yet this is what I'm being forced to do on a daily basis - as is pretty much everyone else. I want the players in my guild to feel like when we beat a team it is because of skill, and when we lose it's because we were outplayed. With a team of pyros, this is seldom the case.

 

In a one on one player skill will take give you the edge, certainly. But in a group dynamic, let's say there is a team of Scoundrel (DPS), Commando, Sage and Gunslinger against 4 Pyrotechs. The Pyrotechs, regardless of skill difference in the groups, will win out as in a group scenario the HIGHEST POTENTIAL damage matters.

Edited July 16, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[oredith]

Seriously struggling to follow the flow of your argument, maybe it's just me.

 

Railshot can only be done every 15 seconds? Not have its cooldown reset on a 6 second internal CD?

 

What do you mean by 'an escape'? What escape does say, a gunslinger or commando have? And on a 15 second cooldown?

 

I'm not trying to berate you, I'm just confused.

railshot is on a 15s cooldown, the only way to RESET that 15s cooldown, is by using flameburst or rocket punch, both requiring you to be in close range, thus the whole "keep a pyro away = ez mode" concept.

 

escape:

gunslinger: http://www.torhead.com/ability/43W0eqx/leg-shot

[oredith]

In a one on one player skill will take give you the edge, certainly. But in a group dynamic, let's say there is a team of Scoundrel (DPS), Commando, Sage and Gunslinger against 4 Pyrotechs. The Pyrotechs, regardless of skill difference in the groups, will win out as in a group scenario the HIGHEST POTENTIAL damage matters.

and now lets say you take a team of 4 snipers vs. 4 pyros. all 4 pyros will be dead and all 4 snipers will still be at near full health.

 

i'm not sure what the point of the example is.

Edited July 16, 2012 by oredith

[TheGreatFrosty]

and now lets say you take a team of 4 snipers vs. 4 pyros. all 4 pyros will be dead and all 4 snipers will still be at near full health.

 

i'm not sure what the point of the example is.

 

Not that I agree with your assessment of the Gunslinger's damage output V the Pyrotechs, but what you've just said is exactly my point.

 

Gunslingers are now in a strong position as competitive rated DPSers. This has happened over a series of boosts to the class.

 

Would you turn to me and say the same thing if it were 4 sages? Commando? Scoundrel DPSers?

 

A good Gunslinger can remain a competitive rated DPS, an average pyrotech will remain competitive throughout. I don't think Gunslingers are weak, but I still think Pyros have the edge over them. That said, I'm more concerned about the three other aforementioned classes and where they sit currently in the DPS class balance.

 

EDIT: To further elaborate on my Gunslinger point. With the GS the damage output is high but they have a counter - they are the easiest class to LOS due to their mobility issues. If a Pyrotech was limited further to melee range, that would present a better counter. Currently that does not exist. And then there's the issues presented when a class has 100% mobility with a slow attached to one of their main abilities.

 

Second EDIT: I'm not suggesting that the three highlighted classes are the only ones that warrant attention either. In the scenario that Pyrotech remain the same, most DPS classes will need attention (with the possible exception of GS)

Edited July 16, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[iNeXxS]

Easiest way to kill a PT is to roll a Marauder and kill us 95% of the time in 1v1 duels.

[oredith]

EDIT: To further elaborate on my Gunslinger point. With the GS the damage output is high but they have a counter - they are the easiest class to LOS due to their mobility issues. If a Pyrotech was limited further to melee range, that would present a better counter. Currently that does not exist. And then there's the issues presented when a class has 100% mobility with a slow attached to one of their main abilities.

i think this is the thing you are failing to grasp. you are somehow assuming that we have a jump or something that allows us to close the gap and keep you in melee range with our perma-snare - we don't

 

pyro are deadly IF you let them into range.

 

if they are forced to hit you from ranged, they are dead in the water because the "burst" is only available every 15 seconds. without melee range, we don't have any tools, nothing to reset rail shot, NOTHING except auto attack or incendiary missile which would completely overheat in seconds.

 

the key is to keep pyro at bay, just as it is key to keep LoS on a sniper.

 

one isn't any harder than the other. If one CHOOSES to ignore it though, whether it be allowing a pyro to get into melee range, or standing out in the open to allow a sniper to shoot at them - then they are, by definition, bad.

Edited July 16, 2012 by oredith

[SaulSerpine]

hahahaha i owned him a couple weeks ago on my vanguard and a hour later he made a post about nerfing pt.....id like to thank myself for that rage post.muhahaha

 

Which class was he playing ?

[NoTomorrow]

A good sniper should never loose to a pyro in the open, unless he has no ballistic dampers. If the pyro has no LOS options within 15 meters from sniper, he should reliably be killed.

[TheGreatFrosty]

A good sniper should never loose to a pyro in the open, unless he has no ballistic dampers. If the pyro has no LOS options within 15 meters from sniper, he should reliably be killed.

 

I agree. Shame SWTOR PVP is built predominately around objective based play which focuses on secular fights, often in small limited spaces. (Unless you somehow stalemate horribly on the first door of Voidstar, and even then, pillar LOSing is simple unless the Pyrotech fights in front of the door?!)

[lpsmash]

A good sniper should never loose to a pyro in the open, unless he has no ballistic dampers. If the pyro has no LOS options within 15 meters from sniper, he should reliably be killed.

 

Well woopidoo for the snipers. What happens to any other class?

[oredith]

Well woopidoo for the snipers. What happens to any other class?

example?

 

though, it's probably the same response that I had to the "flame burst" nerfcall thread.

 

pick and choose your targets. If you are melee, and instead of going after the other team's healer / ranged dps, and instead, you're choosing to go toe to toe with their melee, then you're being bad, and deserve to die - most likely because their snipers are laughing and taking an unbroken chain of shots at you.

 

the only legit complaint I can see vs. Pyro, is from a tank - and unfortunately, a pvp tank is totally dependent upon having a healer as well, else they're pretty useless.

[GrantyJPS]

this entire post is dumb.

 

PT Pyro is only OP against bad players.

 

interestingly, there's A LOT of bad players that let a pyro get close to you, which results in them dying.

 

see, the giant gaping hole in your scenario on why PT Pyro is so powerful, is that they can chain spam flameburst to snare you and trigger free railshot.

 

guess what happens against a good player though?

 

incendiary missile hits? followed by a grenade? and a railshot? oh damn! a pyro has me in his sights, time to move.

 

oh damn, pyro can't close the gap. jeez, now he has no range to flame burst, no rocket punch, so he's gotta wait 15 seconds for railshot again. very threatening guy chasing me while hitting auto-attack!.. OH NOES1!!

 

god forbid, that person actually has a ranged snare/root (which all ranged have).

 

in summary, Pyro is OP vs. bads, just like snipers are OP vs. bads, or marauders vs. bads, or operatives vs. bads, or assassins vs. bads.

 

wait, let me summary it better: anyclass > bads.

 

Yeah, they should give PTs something to help here. I had this cool idea! How about a 'pull' type move. I think, seeing as how they are like these teched up super-fighters, they should get something like a grappling hook that can pull anyone to melee range. What do you guys think?

[oredith]

Yeah, they should give PTs something to help here. I had this cool idea! How about a 'pull' type move. I think, seeing as how they are like these teched up super-fighters, they should get something like a grappling hook that can pull anyone to melee range. What do you guys think?

i agree, we should totally have it on a 15 second cooldown to match other people's 15 second escape!

 

this is awesome. please start the petition to reduce the cooldown of grapple!

[lpsmash]

example?

 

though, it's probably the same response that I had to the "flame burst" nerfcall thread.

 

pick and choose your targets. If you are melee, and instead of going after the other team's healer / ranged dps, and instead, you're choosing to go toe to toe with their melee, then you're being bad, and deserve to die - most likely because their snipers are laughing and taking an unbroken chain of shots at you.

 

the only legit complaint I can see vs. Pyro, is from a tank - and unfortunately, a pvp tank is totally dependent upon having a healer as well, else they're pretty useless.

 

PT pyro are fine because snipers can kill players when they aren't being attacked. Syria is fine, Nazi Germany was worse.

 

The battles are a big cluster**** of people, not a strategy board game. Yeah, you go after a healer or a sniper as a melee, fine. Then a powertech comes along to peel or respawned, your choice, and you're dead. Or you're a sorcerer just doing your lightning and whatnot then a powertech comes along and you're dead.

 

P.S. Powertechs are more effective in melee, but that doesn't mean they are melee. They are a hybrid of melee, having a lot of good attacks from 10m or 30m. That means they can't really get kited by ranged, because they will still do reasonable damage vs them (and kiting is supposed to reduce the damage to almost 0, because a melee can't really attack from ranged) with the gas cylinder, thermal detonator, unload, etc. as opposed to true melee who will have to use cooldowns such as recklessness or saber throw to damage them.

 

The other class that are also somewhat effective at ranged and considered melee are operatives, but sniper can't really be spammed and rifle shot doesn't pack the same punch as combustible gas cylinder procs from rapid shot.

Edited July 16, 2012 by lpsmash

[Twor]

Yeah, they should give PTs something to help here. I had this cool idea! How about a 'pull' type move. I think, seeing as how they are like these teched up super-fighters, they should get something like a grappling hook that can pull anyone to melee range. What do you guys think?

 

And to balance it give it a 45 sec CD and let it be affected by resolve and travel time of the hook, so if you hug a pillar in the last second the hook smashes you uselessly against said pillar.

[VanGoethe]

I am very confused by all of these topics I've noticed claiming that everyone's rerolling pytrotech. On my server, everyone's been rerolling sentinel/marauder. Where are all of these pyrotechs? I mainly pve, but I pvp a fair amount both on my main (lvl 50) and on my lower level bracket alts. Mainly I see people running around with two lightsabers. Plus a smattering of healers and tanks.

[thefishdude]

The bottom line is, only a few Powertechs will have the integrity to admit the class' strengths (damage) and shortcomings (linear rotation and lacking in excitement).

 

Do you realize that you just listed a weakness as "lacking in excitement"? Can't think of a better weakness? I have a BM geared sniper and when I think of listing weaknesses, I start by saying a glass cannon; however, for a PT, they drop off the "glass" part.

[dufox]

first off i suppose i should say that i play guardian tank/dps.

 

i have ran across pyro teams in rateds and anyone who says pyrotechs arnt king of the dps is either crazy or has been lucky enough to find bad pyrotechs.

 

1 pyrotech is not bad. 4 is downright ridiculous.

 

i dont think that pyrotechs are "over powered" but to act like its simply a matter of skill is a bit outrageous

its a matter of stacking, 3 pyrotechs are alot harder to deal with than 3 of any other class.

snipers can hurt but they are alot easier to handle due to the fact they try to range u so u only have to worry about LOS.

with pyros its LOS while they chase u... with good ranged and melee dps.

 

flawed.

Edited July 16, 2012 by dufox

[Twor]

Do you realize that you just listed a weakness as "lacking in excitement"? Can't think of a better weakness? I have a BM geared sniper and when I think of listing weaknesses, I start by saying a glass cannon; however, for a PT, they drop off the "glass" part.

 

You might want to compare the defensive CDs of sniper and pt. And don't forget cover

[oredith]

You might want to compare the defensive CDs of sniper and pt. And don't forget cover

one thing i've noticed in the week's worth of pvp i've been doing - especially in mornings when the player pool is very small, and I come up against the same people a lot.

 

they don't bother killing me anymore. the second i'm in range, i'm snared - basically permanently. I can usually pull a healer in, and possibly kill it, but basically, they see how much damage i can do when uncontrolled, and just CC me until other, more mobile threats are eliminated.

 

i'm not sure how that falls in like with the "op-ness" of pyro. i guess it's kind of an e-peen stroke to be recognized as a threat, but at the same time, it's pretty humiliating to be so easily marginalized.

[xBloodcrazed]

pretty easy to say bads over and over. The fact of the matter is that PT/Vanguards are being re-rolled into all over the place because it is stupid easy to put out insane damage numbers with them. Also, if your current target leaves your range (30 meters is pretty long range yo) just switch targets and put stupid easy lol damage on them until they die instead.

And, a geared PT only needs their targets in range for 3-5 GCD for them to be dead, 1 or 2 GCD if there is good focus happening.

 

Way to go OP, get some ideas up in there about how to make the PT fun to play instead of spamming the same OP abilities over and over. (Yeah, I have a vanguard, and it easily out-performs my other damage AC which is commando by a wide margin)

 

LOL 1-2 GCD's is my incendiary/rapid shots opener thats not killing anyone, whats good now?