What's wrong with Operatives?

[Roxax]

I see SOO many people just COMPLAINING non-stop that Ops are weak and not very good damage dealers or that they're "dead". I see it alot in regards to PVP, which I don't understand. How are these complainers playing? Because if they try to bullrush a group of players, I'm not surprised they get slaughtered. Weak damage? At level 22 my concealment Op tears through people. Before you try to say "That's non- 50!", look up some videos. You see a 50 Op take most people to dead or almost dead within their burst, and THAT'S weak? Really? I don't get it.

 

 

 

P.S. I've been meaning to try Lethality, how good is it for leveling and when does that start?( This is unrelated to above xD)

[tatatan]

this OP post fell in category like:

'i played operative lethality one week, it was great fun, i used to do 800k dmg on wz and be topping the list, now i'm back on my marauder, but as i say ops are fine and fun to play!!'

 

Sincerely, play it couple of months, then we will talk about the class,

[Roxax]

this OP post fell in category like:

'i played operative lethality one week, it was great fun, i used to do 800k dmg on wz and be topping the list, now i'm back on my marauder, but as i say ops are fine and fun to play!!'

 

Sincerely, play it couple of months, then we will talk about the class,

 

I don't play lethality, I DO play my marauder on occasion, and I honestly think you're avoiding the question in an attempt to keep complaining about the class that isn't as bad as you say it is, but that's just me ^.^

Edited July 10, 2012 by Roxax

[MobiusZero]

Before you try to say "That's non- 50!", look up some videos. You see a 50 Op take most people to dead or almost dead within their burst, and THAT'S weak? Really? I don't get it.

 

So a Concealment Op records a highlight reel of their 1v1 successes....

 

It doesn't show the whole story, now does it?

 

What's wrong with Operatives, you ask? The fact that there's like a 20 to 1 Marauder to Operative ratio, is about all the information you need.

[Roxax]

So a Concealment Op records a highlight reel of their 1v1 successes....

 

It doesn't show the whole story, now does it?

 

What's wrong with Operatives, you ask? The fact that there's like a 20 to 1 Marauder to Operative ratio, is about all the information you need.

 

Marauders got a huge buff and everyone wants 1 while Operatives didn't. In a NORMAL situation I wouldn't think the Operative was bad, just everyone wants the shiny new toy.

[MobiusZero]

Marauders got a huge buff and everyone wants 1 while Operatives didn't. In a NORMAL situation I wouldn't think the Operative was bad, just everyone wants the shiny new toy.

 

Marauders never got a huge buff. Other classes just got nerfed, and people started to realize how good they really are.

 

And you can't chalk up such a huge disparity in class numbers, to people wanting a "shiny new toy." Perhaps if the ratio was 2 to 1, or 3 to 1, I could stomach it. But 20 to 1? That's a huge indicator that there is a problem. You can't chalk that up to people being FoTM re-rollers. Especially when we're talking about the class that most people feel has the best story, and that most people claim is one of the most fun to play.

Edited July 10, 2012 by MobiusZero

[chuixupu]

Marauders got a huge buff and everyone wants 1 while Operatives didn't. In a NORMAL situation I wouldn't think the Operative was bad, just everyone wants the shiny new toy.

 

Operatives have been nerfed, what, 4 times since release? So there's that. No matter what state they're actually in, being nerfed so much definitely cuts into people's confidence, just as a buff makes people think suddenly the class is amazing.

I don't pvp, but I will say I did respec my operative to heals and switch to my sniper for DPS.

[Trauglodyte]

It isn't that Operatives are dead. Its just that, if you want to play a melee class, you'll do a lot better with a Jugg, Marauder, or Assassin. They all have more mobility and none of the three have to deal with a poorly designed energy resource. The Operative has a lot working against it without the tools for a good player to use to overcome them. Even a poorly played Marauder is largely dangerous. A poorly played Operative is just meat.

 

Even the PT, which has both ranged and melee attacks does better because the class's ranged abilities stretch out to 30m. The only 30m ranged abilities that an Op has is the free Rifle Shot (doesn't cause an additional ability like Pyro), an energy hog grenade, a DoT, an explosive probe (very good), and an arguably decent casted shot that forces you to root yourself thereby denying you the poor mobility that you have.

 

And none of that factors in having to avoid other players like the plague because stealth is so easy to break or see through OR the 8s that you have to wait to get out of combat to get back into stealth so that you can use your heaviest hitting skill.

[Arrys]

If you get into a WZ with 3-4 marauders in it you won't hear anyone say too many marauders.

 

If you get in a WZ with 3-4 PT's in it you won't hear anyone say too many PT's.

 

 

....

 

 

If you get into a WZ weith 3-4 other operatives you will hear too many operatives we are going to lose. (same for mercs).

 

That's probably the best way I can sum it up for you. The good news is the class on the DPS side is as nerfed as it should get. It will start climbing in ability from here most probably and a person beginning today may have a different experience under 1.4 or whatever game version is active 2-3 months from now. As it is really good players get good results from the glass and help their teams. Those results don't compare to the results really good players are getting with assassins marauders and PT's.... Both in output and impact on outcomes.

[Roxax]

Marauders never got a huge buff. Other classes just got nerfed, and people started to realize how good they really are.

 

And you can't chalk up such a huge disparity in class numbers, to people wanting a "shiny new toy." Perhaps if the ratio was 2 to 1, or 3 to 1, I could stomach it. But 20 to 1? That's a huge indicator that there is a problem. You can't chalk that up to people being FoTM re-rollers. Especially when we're talking about the class that most people feel has the best story, and that most people claim is one of the most fun to play.

 

Really? Check 1.2 patch notes, that's MORE than enough of a buff to make someone want to play the class, but again, that's just me.

[z-monty]

How are these complainers playing?

 

Simple answer: Because they can.

 

Long answer: Because everyone wants everything to be all happy and perfect, so if there are a few things here and there that they dont like, it becomes "omg teh class iz broked!' or something like that. Sure the class does have its problems, I'm not denying that, but people who complain either need to learn to adapt to how to play a support class like the agent, or just look for another class that better fits their favorite style of play, in my opinion. Dont let the forum QQing get you down though, for every complainer there's probably two or more people who looove their agents to death, they are simply just less vocal about it.

[Rizael]

I see SOO many people just COMPLAINING non-stop that Ops are weak and not very good damage dealers or that they're "dead". I see it alot in regards to PVP, which I don't understand. How are these complainers playing? Because if they try to bullrush a group of players, I'm not surprised they get slaughtered. Weak damage? At level 22 my concealment Op tears through people. Before you try to say "That's non- 50!", look up some videos. You see a 50 Op take most people to dead or almost dead within their burst, and THAT'S weak? Really? I don't get it.

 

P.S. I've been meaning to try Lethality, how good is it for leveling and when does that start?( This is unrelated to above xD)

 

Pre-50 means nothing and I never understand why people even bring it up. So to explain this to you I will try and explain the entire problem to you in ways you can understand. Concealment operative is a very heavy hitting class from stealth that basically banks everything on a fast kill, from level 1-49 this is capped at a certain HP range (about 13000 max hp) after 50 people then shoot up to about 18000-22000 HP which is a large jump in gear, with this HP jump expertise is also introduced to try and offset this issue, also healing and defense benefit from it. But the massive increase in HP makes it so the operative cannot finish his task quickly, this is further made worse by the combat bug which stops most operatives from getting off a decent amount of hidden strikes.

 

Hidden strike is the problem of most concealment operatives, as this takes the place of our "second" large hitting ability. Most other DPS classes have two large hitting abilities that have around a 6-15 (in some cases 30 second) repop rate to give some kind of reliable damage burst rotation. Since hidden strike requires so many variables that will only happen once in an engagement it puts all operative damage in the trash bin when compared to other dps classes. What I would suggest to change it is to increase the cooldown of hidden strike to 9-12 seconds but have it usable outside of stealth (attached to jarring strikes talent), when used outside of stealth it cannot knockdown the target nor build a tactical action. This would also solve the problem with the reapplication problems for acid blade, but it is not the only option. A second option would be to add an ability that does not break combat but stealth's for about 2s to allow for a hidden strike on a short cooldown (30s ish) that would allow for more hidden strike's to go off through a match and bring up Operative damage (least attractive option as this would have survivability bonus' to the operative which would probably be considered OP)

 

another issue that is wrong with the design of operatives is that if you do not crit your "big" abilities they do no damage, I am not meaning they don't get a bonus of .7 to their base damage. Pretty much all the abilities will bring HS and Backstab to 1.1-1.3 times the amount of damage. Most classes that rely on an ability so much have a reliable instant crit proc but not the operative making the class prone to a dice throw which is not a good design for a class at all.

 

A large issue has been stealth as well, people despise a class that can stealth because they see it as an unfair advantage. "how dare you take me un-aware!" and then proceed to complain regardless of what the balance of the class is (be it good or bad), Pyrotech burst currently is more than the Operatives have ever had the only difference is that Operatives did it from stealth and had a 1.5 second stun just to anger you on the opener. Stealth has been ninja nerfed a few times now and its very hard to approach a target without blackout and the chances of being hit by a stray AoE or some idiot on your team just decides to walk too close to you, you lose HS and any chance at the fight against a decent opponent. The class is so reliant on getting the opener the developers have pretty much decided that every fight the operative will get the opener and balanced around that as a fact.

 

TLDR - Expertise, growing health pools, Hidden strike (paragraph 2), Talented Surge buffs/ no autocrits, Broken stealth, too many AoE's in game, Balanced around always getting Hidden Strike.

[Arrys]

Hidden strike is the problem of most concealment operatives, as this takes the place of our "second" large hitting ability. Most other DPS classes have two large hitting abilities that have around a 6-15 (in some cases 30 second) repop rate to give some kind of reliable damage burst rotation. Since hidden strike requires so many variables that will only happen once in an engagement it puts all operative damage in the trash bin when compared to other dps classes.

 

Exactly. It should be no suprise to anyone medicine is considered the strognest spec it is the only spec with 100% control of entering it's maximum advantage position and it can do it easily and on demand.

 

Maximum advantage positions for the specs are achieved at the following points.

 

Conceal - In Stealth preferably with stim boost up.

Medicine - 3 TA, 100 energy stim boost active - 3+ probes out

Lethality - 2 TA, 100 Energy, stim boost active, 3+ DOT's in play

 

Conceal initially enters all WZ's in strong position, medicine can leave the gate at 100% potential and lethality depending on spec can leave the gate at about 50% of maximum threat potential with another 10 seconds or so to get there fully on entering combat or at 1%(100 energy) and somewhere aorund 22 seconds to maximum potential on combat opening(Builds slow).

 

Our lethality debates are about what we need to more reliably be in maximum advantage position(Your perception of that varies a bit as lethality plays 2 ways), Conceal struggles to reliably re-enter maximum advnatage position which if they could would indeed provide a reliable reengagement mechanism and utilization of HS, and lethality well you either work your rear end off with a medicine sub spec to stay there, or if going the ambush more melee route rarely if enter fully enter this position. Which is of course why I prefer lethality medicine specs as you have control of entering triple threat territory.

 

Comparitively other classes get to their maximum advantage positions easier than lethality and conceal. Many people spawn into WZ's functionally at that position. And of course there was also a time for conceal when that extra effort to get to maximum potential offered additive DPS rewards which have in many ways been normalized to other DPS classes inherent no/low effort potential.

[Roxax]

Pre-50 means nothing and I never understand why people even bring it up. So to explain this to you I will try and explain the entire problem to you in ways you can understand. Concealment operative is a <a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">very</a> heavy hitting class from stealth that basically banks everything on a fast kill, from level 1-49 this is capped at a certain HP range (about 13000 max hp) after 50 people then shoot up to about 18000-22000 <a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">HP</a> which is a large jump in gear, with this HP jump expertise is also introduced to try and offset this issue, also healing and defense benefit from it. But the massive increase in HP makes it so the operative cannot finish his task quickly, this is further made worse by the combat bug which stops most operatives from getting off a decent amount of hidden strikes.

 

 

If you noticed, I actually mentioned the 50 bracket not being so bad either, I realize these may be highlight reels but I feel it suits my argument perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2ymdzUBWGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jq3TQvGzDI

[MobiusZero]

If you noticed, I actually mentioned the 50 bracket not being so bad either, I realize these may be highlight reels but I feel it suits my argument perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2ymdzUBWGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jq3TQvGzDI

 

It's a bunch of highlight reels from people that are fully geared (the guy from the first video said he has fully re-modded WH gear.), and if you see them attacking people with 13-14k HP, they are noobs in recruit or PvE gear.

 

When they attack a fully geared, 20k+ HP player, it's usually a whole different story.

 

Admittedly, a skilled player can most certainly do well with the class. But their skill would get them even farther as another class.

 

Are Concealment Ops broken? Well, perhaps that is going too far. But they certainly are so underpowered that basically no one is playing them anymore. And the few that are, must basically be a level above the rest, both skill-wise and gear-wise, in order to compete.

[Rizael]

If you noticed, I actually mentioned the 50 bracket not being so bad either, I realize these may be highlight reels but I feel it suits my argument perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2ymdzUBWGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jq3TQvGzDI

 

You asked me what was wrong, I told you what is the problem. If you decide not to listen to it and stick your head in the sand that is your choice. I can make a highlight reel as well against 13k HP players and I can most likely kill those players in a few seconds but those players do not matter in rateds because they are what we call "non-factors". As I also covered I said that the highly random crit of the large hitting operative abilities basically makes us do no damage or acceptable damage, when we do acceptable damage versus some classes they can still turn the fight around and win (Pyrotech, tanksin, anni marauder) if we don't do acceptable opening damage we have 0 chance to beat any decent player regardless off class (healers excluded as they cannot blow our face off immediately).

 

I am sure if you watched these same players in Rated warzones it will fully illustrate my points but since no operative will release a video that is not entertaining I doubt we will see any such video.

[tatatan]

...

Are Concealment Ops broken? Well, perhaps that is going too far. But they certainly are so underpowered that basically no one is playing them anymore. And the few that are, must basically be a level above the rest, both skill-wise and gear-wise, in order to compete.

 

Same for lethality and i can't remember when i met lethality operative in wz. Sometimes concealment, lots medics, but lethality? Only Leth. snipers.

 

To the OP: you says you have op on 20+ level and want to discuss pvp mechanics for the class? => this is just

The above discussion only confirms that you don't have the grasp of it yet.

[willyshoot]

To the OP, dps ops are dead. get to 50 and play rwz. RWZ more than anything have highlighted the need for a very specific group build. Why on earth you would take an Ops dps i don't know. What do they bring? Stealth? Op medic has that and stays alive a lot longer.

 

Brings dps? Not as much as a lot of other classes. You say you have watched youtube.. well.. I have too and all the fights I have seen 1v1 are against players that made huge mistakes or have zero idea how to fight an ops dps.

 

Why are people complaining? Well i am one for starters.. why? well.. I want to play dps and I know full well it's pointless on the one character I have. No.. I can't bare the thought of grinding to War hero rank again on a decent class so I am forced to go heals.

 

As a healer an Ops dps is the least feared class I face.. it is that bad now I have time to decide what emote I am going to type while I wait for the inevitable 4s stun while my hots keep me easily healed. It is to the point when i hear the Op attacks in a rwz I am genuinely surprised.

 

Get to 50.. do some rwz and then please revisit this thread and give us your opinion.

[Sookster]

Concealment simply lacks outside stealth sustained dps, it really shows when doing operations as one while my madness spec assassin surpasses it easily even though madness isn't ideal for operations. Lethality is somewhat better than concealment but still flawed due to TA generation mechanic which needs to be looked at again by devs for a new way to generate TA.

 

I don't know any good concealment operative or scrapper scoundrel on Pot5 (nor HoG) past patch ~1.1.3, only ones war hero with augmented out gear will go into a regular WZ and target low health players, I've seen it multiple times but they fall short when facing an equally geared player. I've had one just constantly chasing me around the other night while on my assassin and he didn't kill me once (he was WH geared). Same guy was harassing my healing operative as well and still struggled.

 

In pvp they're just not that dangerous anymore, and in pve, there's better dps classes for the role. And Dmaster claiming to be a super duper concealment operative... yeah right.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Sookster

[Roxax]

Same for lethality and i can't remember when i met lethality operative in wz. Sometimes concealment, lots medics, but lethality? Only Leth. snipers.

 

To the OP: you says you have op on 20+ level and want to discuss pvp mechanics for the class? => this is just

The above discussion only confirms that you don't have the grasp of it yet.

 

It was under my impression it was a gear-dependent class and most of you are just whiners

[Roxax]

Concealment simply lacks outside stealth sustained dps.

 

It's a strike from stealth spec, what did you expect? I haven't tried Lethality (I actually asked how it fares since I WANT to try it) and I HONESTLY feel this is just a "Pick your targets and L2P" kind of thing. I played a rogue in WoW for at least 3 years and when it's a gear issue, you pick your targets. When you have the gear? It's L2P. I'm not as clueless as you people think so please stop insulting me by assuming so.

[Jestuh]

Your operative is level 22. You haven't unlocked most of what this class can do yet (hidden strike, acid blade, anything heal spec related or lethality related). Watching youtube videos will not give you any idea as to how a class plays at level 50 or more importantly against other level 50s. Youtube is for highlights, it's not a documentary channel.

 

I started my op the day of prelaunch and have watched them get progressively more and more downed to the point where the damage output is the lowest and by far the most situational of any DPS based class in the game.

 

People that have played this class a lot more than you are trying to explain to you why it sucks. You can either accept their experience at their word or you can disagree, but it's starting to look like you are just arguing for the sake of trying to look smart.

 

If I had a level 22 rogue on WoW and told you they were crap and you've played one for 3 years, would you care at all about my opinion or correcting it?

 

The pre-launch operative class was just plain dangerous. They were scary and a high risk/high reward class to play with and play against. They could disappear, reappear, give you a 50% armor debuff, keep you pinned to the ground for 3 seconds where they could take half your health or more, then stun you after a few seconds and finish you off. Then re-enter stealth and find a new target. They could hunt. Even prior to 1.2 they were still very dangerous and very playable.

 

Since launch (and what really killed ops DPS was patch 1.2), the cooldown timers on backstab and hidden strike have been increased, the energy cost has increased, the debuff has dropped to 30%, and the damage on the main attacks also decreased.

 

My first match in a 50 warzone post 1.2 , I hit a merc with my alpha strikes, unloadedeverything I had and burned every cooldown, and they would just ride it out because I couldn't do enough damage to kill him or get him near dead. They wouldn't even bother attacking me, just ignored. Sorcs with their shields up can do the same thing. I'm an assassin that can't kill people, just annoy them. Nearly every class in the game can outgun us very readily while everything in our arsenal can't do much to overcome it. Concealment ops have dropped from being elite lethal assassins that keep everyone on their toes to circling the battlefield picking off people near death anyways. It's not fun, it's just putting down a sick animal.

 

The worst part is, most of these nerfs (consistent nerfs over 4 separate patches with no dev posts in the operative forums or directed to operative players to explain why) were done to address PVP complaints but in the process made concealment ops useless for PVE as well.

[Anysao]

I think the problem people are saying is that pre 1.1, operatives where very powerful, stealth dominating other classes. 1.1 weakened them, making them more balanced. 1.2 brought another weakening to them, so they seemed "dead" from there. So that's why people say that.

Personally, I don't see a problem with operatives. My friend is a concealment operative, he is doing some rapid damage, but they don't seem to be too high, sadly. I play a lethality (for extra range) Op, and it is very good. The DoTs you hardly notice, just keep sniping/shiving. Corrosive grenade dominates in PvP, killing up to 5 people at once, slowly.

Sadly I am no good at PvP, but operative gives me a nice big boost.

 

Side note: I also put some points in healing tree, up to Kolto Probe. It provides me with nice lethality abilities, and still able to patch myself up. I actually heal out heroics with just hybrid.

YOU are doing Operative right.

[Fayme]

My first match in a 50 warzone post 1.2 , I hit a merc with my alpha strikes, unloadedeverything I had and burned every cooldown, and they would just ride it out because I couldn't do enough damage to kill him or get him near dead. They wouldn't even bother attacking me, just ignored. Sorcs with their shields up can do the same thing. I'm an assassin that can't kill people, just annoy them. Nearly every class in the game can outgun us very readily while everything in our arsenal can't do much to overcome it. Concealment ops have dropped from being elite lethal assassins that keep everyone on their toes to circling the battlefield picking off people near death anyways. It's not fun, it's just putting down a sick animal.

 

Well said! After pvp'ing and grinding WH gear on my operative thinking at somepoint I would be able to kill stuff, I decided to level a guardian to be a ball carrier in huttball. After a few minutes into my first warzone with him and not dying, it almost felt as if I was cheating after dying so much on my operative.

 

Pre-50 operatives are awesomely (is that a word) fun to play. After 50...haha words can not describe the brickwall you hit.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Fayme

[MobiusZero]

It was under my impression it was a gear-dependent class and most of you are just whiners

 

Believe it or not, our class is benefitting less from gear upgrades than most. That is, if you have a mara, and go from recruit to WH + augments, you will see a greater benefit than a Concealment operative that makes the same upgrade.

 

The main reason gear helps, is it allows you to better kill bads and low geared opponents. But when compared to other equally geared/skilled players. you're actually benefitting less from your gear (This is according to DPS parses.).

 

Also, unlike every other class in the game, Concealment Op must remod their WH gear in order to even be on equall terms with other classes' out of the box gear, since most of it gives +accuracy which is useless to a Concealment Op.

Edited July 11, 2012 by MobiusZero