I absolutely HATE PVP at 50....

[Retro_Chrome]

50 pvp is rough and yes, I also think Expertise is just a stupid stat. PVP stats don't really help anyone I think.

 

Seriously, WHY not make it so you can use pve gear in pvp?

 

The argument of "Then you'll just be getting beat by people who do end game raiding" is silly as well. There should be TWO paths to the end game gear if people want a gear grind so badly. You can either pvp to get it or you can pve to get it.

 

Maybe make the differences cosmetic at best if you HAVE to distinguish how you got it.

 

I think end game gear should be achieved by three different paths to help three different gameplays

 

1) PVP

2) Endgame Raiding

3) Endgame Dungeons

 

 

This comes up often in these discussions, however we fail to realize there is a third faction in this debate: the hardcore PVE'r.

 

This guy will be the first to complain that this PVP troll lost his way to max gear and can now do top of the food chain insano mode operations without ever having to do any of the previous progression that super pve hero had to bog through to get there.

 

then comes the debate on which is harder

 

followed by adding a stat for pve to prevent entry to high end raids

 

quickly followed up by *yellow text* this post has been closed please reply in *link with exact same conversation without any of the input by the people in this post there* that is pretty close to what you guys are saying but may have more trolls or less trolls then what you have said.

 

basically this is the same exact conversation had in every MMO with gear progression at all, whether there is a pve stat or pvp stat or both! well since this is an MMORPG there will always be a carrot to run after regardless whether it is pve or pvp. knowing that, there will always at some point be a gear discrepency in your playstyle of choice.

 

comments that will be said or have already been said that i thought of after i added the previous paragraph.

 

"why should i pve/pvp if there is no gear for me to get"

 

"make it all cosmetic"

 

"qqqqqqqqq"

 

/thread

[L-RANDLE]

Ignoring the trolls who are here to insult me without actually knowing what they are talking about... /sigh - peopel liek them will be the downfall of this game really - but I digress.

 

I'm not talking about fresh 50's. I've continually talked about the previous levels of gear. First time thru was centurion, champion then battlemaster. Anyone caught in the MIDDLE of that grind got SCREWED out of having Battlemaster gear when they should have.

 

I highlighted the part of your post where you make sense. See, you get it. The problem is by being in that early phase of playing from Beta and being level 50 a month after launch (my work was slow from 2 weeks prior to Xmas til 3 weeks into January) and being casual in my PVP play (and I know I'm a decent player /hides from trolls who will now jump in to insult me) that I got boned in the champion bags RNG loot rolls for the middle ground gear, then when they introduced recruit gear in 1.2 - lo - my hard earned and very effective PVP gear was suddenly vendor fodder. I couldn't get the Warzone comms I spent on them back to apply towards the BM gear. Basically, even though I wasn't, I had to regress to being a fresh 50 - worse, I didn't even have any Warzone comms saved up from leveling prior to reaching 50 as I was 50 since January. So all this gear that I spent thousands of Warzone comms on - THE VERY SAME COMMS THAT I NEEDED TO BUY MY BATTLEMASTER GEAR with - was expensive paper weights. Those of you berating me and saying "you have to earn it" - the point is - I DID #$^%ing earn it.

 

So all that time PVPing was basically thrown away - discarded by Bioware, given proof now to the fact that they don't actually think about things before they do them. The very least they should have done was have an NPC vendor that would buy back the various Champion gear items for at least half the Warzone comms that we bought them for. But that lack of foresight is yet another one of the things that blows my mind.

 

As it stands - the game is too much like WOW and imho they really need to get out of the safety box of copying that game and do something truly amazingly innovative to make this game awesome. I have plenty of ideas for that, but the last time I sent anyone a GDD it got stolen. Regardless of how much I like Star Wars - the community of PVPers who chose to belittle their fellows is unfortunately depressing. The sadder part is that they don't realize that they will lsoe their precious PVP if they don't support making it better for everyone. Trying to build only themselves up and others down, is the sign of a lost cause.

 

Well since you miss the obvious sarcasm/tongue-in cheek nature of my posts, I will make it clear why you have nothing to complain about. I was trying not to call you out on this, but at least you admit you have not played regularly since like Feb/Mar when ques were still popping.

 

1.1.5 - 3/6/2012

 

You could buy BM Tokens with WZ comms and you still got daily and weekly BM bags(for free) with the chance to get BM tokens. You can stop blaming 1.2 or RNG for your suspect gear now, blame your job and RL.... You have/had tons of options to not be in "gear purgatory" as you claim you are in. How the hell you were not able to get BM pieces is beyond me (and this is coming from a simliar player to yourself, who is on a PvE server), flame on though...

[PloGreen]

the problem is not expertise. Its the statistic advantage the third tier provides compared to tier 1 and 2.

 

The scale needs to be adjusted to give statistical advantage that is not so massive that you do 10% dmg and they laugh and 3 hit kill. Currently the model is to top heavy to the hardcore pvpers and has always been that way.

 

I've played 50 for a long time. Its always been skewed to gear dominance first, then tactics and skills. I would prefer a model that gave tactics and skill the edge and then if those are equal the statistic advantage of gear would help the side that dedicated time and effort to pvp.

 

Currently, the math works in such a way that recruit players have 20% gap in health vs bm/warhero. BM Full is about 1.5-2.5k Health vs warhero which at 2.5k is about 14% advantage.

 

That doesn't account for power, expertise and main stat edges that also factor in.

 

Whoever does the math for pvp in this game either is ignorant or has clearly made a determination that the best gear should always beat a lesser geared team/player. Those sort of statistical advantages are almost impossible to overcome.

 

So yeah. Unless you are WH geared ranked warzones represent a place that you will lose without gear. Not even accounting for min/max advantages.

 

Nonsense. You just want a level playing field because you are behind the curve. Gear yourself up like everyone else and stop making excuses.

 

It is piss easy to get bm, but even if u have full war hero, experienced players will whack you out, because they don't sit on forums asking for better geared players to have their stats reduced. They should not pander rateds to casuals, because they will still get beat in war hero gear anyway, because by the time they are geared and made a dozen more expertise is not needed or gear gap is too large threads, the people who play pvp for ratings in teams will be on to the next tier.

 

People who are casual etc or new always complaining about gear crutches etc - fact is war hero premades don't even consider this sort of thing, because they are fighting other war Heros for ratings. Same geared folk, then it becomes about teamwork, skill, reactions, comp, synergy and awareness.

 

Recruit is not meant for ranked, and bm will only get you so far but that is not the problem of people in war hero gear, they went through time and effort to get there and I'm afraid you should have to do the same.

 

Basically you want to run before you can walk and that is just not gonna happen I'm afraid. But bioware threw casuals a massive bone with recruit gear, and a 320k refund.

[islander]

One thing I totally agree with is this: If you don't have full, or at least close to full, war hero gear, then rated isnt really for you (unless you enjoy beatings).

 

It is what it is. It just sucks because there's an inherent advantage the bigger servers natural inhabitants (read; non-transfers two weeks ago) have because while they were out grinding WH gear, the rest of us on dead servers literally COULDN'T.

[Hookander]

Yep 50 lvl pvp is based on gear and based on main stat known as Expertise. Ranked premades always requires voip (mumble, teamspeak, ventrilo) to everyone to better communication. If you have full battlemaster you are still "paper" (weak) target and easily to take down.

 

Also premade requires good players with right classes... you need healers, you need tanks to shield up healers and you need dpses. Also the best teams knows how and when to use all damage buffs like Warzone Adrenal... So Ranked warzones are for those who already know how to play.

[Siorac]

The reason I like lowbie PvP better is simple: there's less CC flying around.

 

In the level 10-49 bracket I spend less time stunlocked so I'm less frustrated. Expertise, gear differences, all those matter little to me; I can handle defeats but I want to slit my wrists when I'm stunlocked to death three times in a row so my Warzone experience looks like this: spawn > run > stunlock > death > spawn...

[islander]

The reason I like lowbie PvP better is simple: there's less CC flying around.

 

In the level 10-49 bracket I spend less time stunlocked so I'm less frustrated. Expertise, gear differences, all those matter little to me; I can handle defeats but I want to slit my wrists when I'm stunlocked to death three times in a row so my Warzone experience looks like this: spawn > run > stunlock > death > spawn...

 

I actually agree, I enjoy leveling in warzones more pre-50. Takes a different kind of skill, because you work with less.

[Jadescythe]

The reason I like lowbie PvP better is simple: there's less CC flying around.

 

In the level 10-49 bracket I spend less time stunlocked so I'm less frustrated. Expertise, gear differences, all those matter little to me; I can handle defeats but I want to slit my wrists when I'm stunlocked to death three times in a row so my Warzone experience looks like this: spawn > run > stunlock > death > spawn...

 

This is by far the most intelligent reason for liking lowbie PVP better than 50 that I have ever heard, no joke.

[Conry]

This games isn't so much gear dependent as people think. 1-49 wasn't Zomg perskills i ***** dem nubs because i was good. It was because you had much more skills and perks then the lower lvls. Which gives somewhat of a invisible "gear lvl" which just came to you as u lvld. If this game was "gear based" then 2k rated Warzone gear would have better stats and not just a different color and it would continue as your rank got higher. The gear grind is there to keep people playing and allow people time to put their foot into pvp without stepping into a fully competitive play. I'm pretty sure when Rated Warzones become more popular. People will see less Fully geared people in warzones.

[TheLordMaster]

Well there is always going to be gear gaps in a PROGRESSION based MMORPG. Stick it out and put your time in like EVERYONE who has War Hero gear (it did take me a very long time to get my stuff). The fun is improving your skills AND your characters stats to watch him/her grow with you. You may lose your way to battlemaster gear, but I have done it on 3 alts now it doesnt take that long. Once your in BM you still won't be incredible but the gap between BM and WH gear is much smaller of a gap.

 

My final two suggestions is that you should play with a guild. There are a lot of very medicore to rookie players playing that will make your team lose. For the final suggestion, now that ranked is out most of the geared players are doing ranked. Get into some normal games and gear yourself up. Put in the effort and reap the rewards.

[IronmanSS]

Seems like Ranked WZs should solve the whole fresh 50s vs the big boys issue as its extremely doubtful any full WH 8 man crew is gonna Q anything but Ranked now. Normal 50 WZs should be a much more level playing field now for people to gear up in without the "nightmare mode".

 

As for the argument that Ranked WZs should be for everybody and anybody...they already are - the tooltip describes them as a way for anyone to find out how they rank against all the other players on their server - ALL (yes, that includes the pvp 24/7 ppl). If you don't want to know this why are you Qing ranked? If you got owned due to being outclassed (gear and/or skill), then you now have a realistic idea of how you measure up. If that truth hurts the pride too much, then play in the unranked wzs where the 8 man WH premades aren't likely to be. Have fun in the recreational swim area, gear up, and come back to the "deep end" when you're less likely to drown. The choice is everyone's to make, and yeah, some might actually enjoy gearing up 3x as fast while losing, but most casuals are going to have a better time in unranked now that it's shark-free.

Edited June 27, 2012 by IronmanSS

[Wulffion]

I think it's even worse for PUGs since 1.3. There are still several war hero+ premades queuing for normal warzone and most of the time the matchmaking is totally insane.

Maybe it's just bad luck, but I am running against premades all the time with 7 other random guys in my team.

Losing is ok, but if you don't stand the slightest chance, it really gets annoying. And I had more of these games in the last two days than in weeks before 1.3.

[Deyjarl]

Fanboi,

 

LOL deluding yourself with that claim. You clearly don't know what the term fanboi means. I'm very critical of BW and this game in many areas. This just happens to not be one of those because it isn't their fault it is your own. I never said BW's changes to the PvP system twice was a good thing. You might take your own advice and not assume, and don't put words in other peoples mouth. I never defended that.

 

I only pointed out that everyone who played the game from the start went through the same thing. The only difference between them and you and you don't want to do the work to get where they are at.

 

I understand what you are saying just fine. Oh no the game changed and I don't want to work at getting the next type of PvP gear like everyone else is.

 

If they hadn't changed the system at those particular points in time and that maybe had done it two weeks later

 

Again everyone else went through same things you did that PvPed before the changes. And they ranked up and got the gear. They adapted, you didn't. Things like this happen in MMOs all the time.

 

I would have made the Battlemaster level then and NOT been sent back to 1st grade because of the changes.

 

was literally equal to the highest of the high at that point in terms of time put in and grinding done

 

Again just like everyone else. You didn't have any other disadvantage than they did getting the new gear. you are only proving my earlier assessment. Your feeling of entitlement.

 

and the king of the hill that get's there first seems to always win the most.

 

Your exact words. Again there is nothing that prevented you from getting that exact same gear over the same time period. Not a thing except you. Suggestion. Get over yourself.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Deyjarl]

IPurpose was to stratify players according to this,

 

It takes 10 matches first before the ranking starts to make assessments. Sorting out the initial placement when it is mostly based on win loss and performance when no one has play a match yet doesn't exactly work. It needs several matches first before starting to rank people.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Sendai_S]

Suggestion. Get over yourself.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. It's clear that you don't. From the way you talk, very deliberatly putting others down and claiming that they didn't do the time, without understanding their situation and life and circumstances is what makes you that guy - the guy that thinks he's always right and everyone else is always wrong.

 

Given equal gear in a equal setting - I would wipe the floor with you.

 

But I don't actually care about that. What I care about is the methodology that Bioware is going through in handling massive changes (and this applies to more than just PVP btw) to the systems they put in place without even considering the circumstances and current progressions of the people they are trying to make happy currently working within those systems in progress. I'm more repressentative of the average player of this game than you are. I never came to the forums until I saw the problems and because I want to see the game succeed and one of the things I do for a living is very related to doing just that I was hoping to help Bioware understand the issues that the average gamer goes through.

 

But from all appearances you are just fighting to keep your iWin - uLose setup. From the way you talk to others, it sounds as if you ahve to be that guy, the guy who wins, even if it's unfairly. Is it true? Or could you actually live with having a PVP warzone system where everyone is on more equal footing and the fights are more definitively based on skill than gear? Because I assure you, at the present, gear decides PVP more than skill.

 

You get over YOURSELF. You're the one who obviously has issues. I'm the one leaving the sinking ship behind. You're the one who is urging the rats to stay on it.

[Emencie]

This games isn't so much gear dependent as people think. 1-49 wasn't Zomg perskills i ***** dem nubs because i was good. It was because you had much more skills and perks then the lower lvls. Which gives somewhat of a invisible "gear lvl" which just came to you as u lvld. If this game was "gear based" then 2k rated Warzone gear would have better stats and not just a different color and it would continue as your rank got higher. The gear grind is there to keep people playing and allow people time to put their foot into pvp without stepping into a fully competitive play. I'm pretty sure when Rated Warzones become more popular. People will see less Fully geared people in warzones.

 

OP said 10-49 was fun... Not 39-49 was fun. Notice when people compare 50 PvP to pre 50 PvP they use the numbers 10-49. That's because even at level 10 (now that there is sprint at 1) Its still more fun than entry level 50 PvP.

 

If you don't think the 50 bracket is gear dependent I propose you and your rated team equip 100% recruit gear and compete in the Rated bracket.

 

when it comes down to it after reaching 20 in the 10-49 bracket you are competitive and by 30 little more than skill determines the outcome of each battle but what makes people (myself included) like the 10-49 bracket is there is seldom a point where you fell completely helpless compared to your opponent. Level 10's can kill 49's in that bracket sometimes they are even more powerful because of the way bolster works. a level 10 in all level 9 blues will be considerably more powerful (stat wise) than a 49 in level 43 greens.

 

These are the reasons people like 10-49 not because they were farming level 10s at level 49... that would only last a few games even if it did happen. Its about not being a punching bag for people that got there first.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Emencie

[Pekish]

EXAMPLE SHADOW STALKER

 

RECRUIT - NO AUGM

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b0683f6c-4d54-4b48-8822-5edd3cd9bfcc

 

Damage (Pri): 685.9 - 855.9

Bonus Damage: 344.9

Health: 14371.1

Damage Reduction: 22.32%

 

Expertise: 896.0

PvP Dmg Boost: 18.20%

PvP Dmg Reduction: 15.40%

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

BM - 7 AUGM (only the 7 u dont need to buy the augm kit it would actually be 6 but i was generous)

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/d6aa39ec-9978-4c5a-aac8-04a0d84415b1

 

Damage (Pri): 796.7 - 980.7

Bonus Damage: 429.7

Health: 18090.7

Damage Reduction: 23.79%

 

Expertise: 1164.0

PvP Dmg Boost: 22.23%

PvP Dmg Reduction: 18.18%

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

WH - 14 AUGM

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/def71ce9-e8ac-494d-bfbd-9e2a44f20b86

 

Damage (Pri): 889.2 - 1084.2

Bonus Damage: 500.2

Health: 20097.8

Damage Reduction: 24.50%

 

Expertise: 1332.0

PvP Dmg Boost: 24.48%

PvP Dmg Reduction: 19.67%

 

 

 

855 (base damage) + 345 (bonus) + 18.20% PVP = 1425 (14500HP)

980 (base damage ) + 430 (bonus) + 22.23% = 1725 (18000HP)

1085 (base damage) + 500 (bonus) + 24.48%PVP = 1975 (20000HP)

 

multiply the difference for 8 members...

this is a geared base game learn to deal with it

Edited June 28, 2012 by Pekish

[Holohona]

Do you go in hardmode operations in green gear then complain that it doesn't adjust difficulty on gear?

.[/color]

 

Actually - I've been in more HM OPS (EV, KP) that I'd like to count where the majority of the raid is in battlemaster and the ops are borderline trivial... Try going into a 50 WZ in columi...

[Deyjarl]

Given equal gear in a equal setting - I would wipe the floor with you.

 

Oh noes someone might beat me in PvP. Big assumption on your part. And hilarious that you react exactly like I described. Spoiled self-entitle prat that needs to get over themselves.

 

But I don't actually care about that. What I care about is the methodology that Bioware is going through in handling massive changes (and this applies to more than just PVP btw) to the systems they put in place without even considering the circumstances and current progressions of the people they are trying to make happy currently working within those systems in progress. I'm more repressentative of the average player of this game than you are. I never came to the forums until I saw the problems and because I want to see the game succeed and one of the things I do for a living is very related to doing just that I was hoping to help Bioware understand the issues that the average gamer goes through.

 

The methodology was they thought everyone should start over on an equal footing. You didn't like that and wanted to keep an advantage and not put in the work everyone else has.

 

But from all appearances you are just fighting to keep your iWin - uLose setup.

 

Except I don't have War Hero gear yet. I'm staying out of ranked until I do. And I'm not crying about it.

 

You can get the exact same gear they have also. There is no "advantage" you speak of except in your own spoiled imagination.

[Scritchy]

Bioware is proving what every PVPer already knew. Gear based PVP is fracking stupid. Always has been, always will be.

[Pekish]

all BW is proving is that a lot of FPS gamer decided to play MMORPG and want to force the game to look like an FPS because tehy are so called hardcore-PVPer and they cannot deal with doing anything else other then the one thing they like they cannot deal to mix different activities they cannot deal with spending time in advancing and they have no clue about how to be social in anyway other then scream in ventrilo PVP order

 

they cannot deal to compromise their own fun with other people fun because different playstyle are under the same roof (it's called beeing in a social enviroment) doing different stuff other then the only one they like.... and they have no clue what character progression is about

 

next time you buy a mmorpg ask yourself do i really want a mmorpg or i want a FPS?

 

because perhaps u are just buying the wrong game

Edited June 28, 2012 by Pekish

[Scritchy]

Why does removing the stupidity of gear advantages automatically make you think FPS instead of MMORPG?

[Varicite]

Why does removing the stupidity of gear advantages automatically make you think FPS instead of MMORPG?

 

Customizing your gear and stats are a big part of the metagame that a lot of people enjoy. It's a core part of many RPGs that people have come to associate w/ the genre.

 

At the high end, there is no "gear advantage". Hopefully soon, it will be a lot less glaring of an issue at the low-end in normal WZs w/ more geared premades moving to Ranked WZs.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Varicite

[Scritchy]

Customizing your gear and stats are a big part of the metagame that a lot of people enjoy.

 

At the high end, there is no "gear advantage". Hopefully soon, it will be a lot less glaring of an issue at the low-end in normal WZs w/ more geared premades moving to Ranked WZs.

You can customize your gear appearances without it affecting PVP. Customizing stats isn't really a metagame - people will always flock the to 'best' setup.

[Pekish]

it's not the only way it's one way it's a way that can be easily controlled by the devs

 

since the public got more and more stupid and incapable to actually play the game incapable to create an enviroment where guild fight eachother for fun because the public now want the carrot, the only way to make this possible is gear

 

did you notice that world PVP is actually there? there are full areas where PVP is set ON and nobody waste time with it? no guild actually spend time to organize epic fight.... but the open pvp area is there

 

what you ask is not what the public want or we would see people fighting in the open world just for fun and ignoring the mindless farm

 

those days are dead now DEVS have to give a reason to fight (the reason doesnt' come anymore from the public from guild rivality from honor and entrateinment) and so far the only reason the public seem to respond fairly good to is gear, they all hate it but they all do it

 

because on the long term 1+ year people get tired of "working" to organize the fun in an MMO they want it "ready and easy"

 

it was working in ultima and back then because the public was a small percentage of very dedicated nerds that love computer that knew how to program and were totally devoted to create the content of their empty shell of a game.

 

it's like cooking vs pre-cooked(microwave) meal

of course cooking taste better but involve time and work the MMORPG back then was like cooking and the MMORPG nowday are like pre-cooked microwave box... they have to be quick and easy and accessible.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Pekish