Bioware, Class balance and Powertechs

[Serrowherrow]

No, that wasn't me. This particular aspect of the class is only salient in this one scenario: on offense in the first room of Voidstar. I don't need to guess about this when the 3 Vanguard players on my team tell me flat out they'd rather die in that scenario than be forced to try to leave combat to use Reload & Recharge. You're correct that cooldowns don't reset, but you're incorrect in thinking that resetting their resources essentially for free by dying isn't an advantage when there is no respawn timer. Further, you're incorrect that ALL classes reset their resources on death; the Knight/Warrior classes do not. After death, Sentinels respawn with 0 Focus, 0 stacks of Juyo form bonus damage (for Watchman), and 0 stacks of Centering. We have to rebuild our resources to deal our highest damage. It isn't that big of a deal, certainly, but to not understand why it's more of an advantage for a Vanguard who is out of resources to die than to try to leave combat to use Reload & Recharge is willful ignorance.

 

Sorcerors respawn with full resources.

 

Both agent classes respawn with full resources.

 

Mercs also respawn with full resources.

 

Therefore, we must nerf mercs, sorcs, and operatives.

 

Especially operatives.

[Requitas]

The funny thing is you two think I'm complaining. I'm not. I willfully choose to participate in the current gamestate each time I log in. I'm merely stating that there's one very niche scenario wherein it is advantageous for a certain class to do something that goes against the spirit of the game. To latch onto this assertion as the only attackable area of my argument demonstrates clearly your inability to profitably argue against my main point; that is, that in the current state it is highly advantageous for teams who are serious about rated warzones to stack a particular class.

 

It's a shame really that our culture has devolved to the point where instead of engaging one another when we disagree, we instead resort to insults, taunts, and sarcasm followed by essentially saying "you're wrong and I'm going to prove it by sticking my head in the sand and ignoring you." But when this is the sort of behavior that is both displayed on a daily basis by our country's leaders, and then rewarded with political influence and monetary assets, it's hardly surprising.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Requitas

[Trauglodyte]

Your pyros should learn ressource management sry. Seriously. And to add an insult to it because your pyros are not able to use an default attack in between. Amazing, really.

You might want to explain to them how ammo retgeneration works.

Here is a helpful link:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=451651

 

Ignore list is getting fuller and fuller.

 

There is no need to learn resource management when on offense in VS. You blow everything that you have and push them into a respawn timer while you just come out free and clear with no problems.

[TheronFett]

I go by the philosophy that there isn't a "good" or a "bad" powertech. There is just a powertech. With 0 skill curve, each and every powertech is an issue which raises serious questions about class balance.

 

You're one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) QQer of Powertechs on these boards. Almost daily, you post invalid arguments as to why they should be nerfed. None of them are sound. All of them are filled with misinformation.

 

At some point, you're going to have to realize that the problem isn't the class. It's you, and your inability to counter them.

[Twor]

There is no need to learn resource management when on offense in VS. You blow everything that you have and push them into a respawn timer while you just come out free and clear with no problems.

 

I'd love to have more players like you on the opposing teams on my server.

[TheGreatFrosty]

You're one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) QQer of Powertechs on these boards. Almost daily, you post invalid arguments as to why they should be nerfed. None of them are sound. All of them are filled with misinformation.

 

At some point, you're going to have to realize that the problem isn't the class. It's you, and your inability to counter them.

 

Point to me one argument I've made through misinformation. I didn't resurrect this thread, someone else did. The thread itself, as well as many others, are stained with your ardent, relentless and absolutely misguided attempts to defend a spec that most the community know are overpowered.

 

I always try to keep my posts as accurate as possible, but I also don't suffer the pathetic whims of people who'd claim "Powertechs so squish, u 1 shot us with sage project".

[Serrowherrow]

Point to me one argument I've made through misinformation. I didn't resurrect this thread, someone else did. The thread itself, as well as many others, are stained with your ardent, relentless and absolutely misguided attempts to defend a spec that most the community know are overpowered.

 

I always try to keep my posts as accurate as possible, but I also don't suffer the pathetic whims of people who'd claim "Powertechs so squish, u 1 shot us with sage project".

 

I actually find playing my powertech more difficult than my marauder, as I have to constantly manage my resource pool, and the longer a fight goes on, the more likely I am to make a mistake and overheat.

 

Unless you've actually played a class, you're in no position to judge its skill curve. A class is complex for different reasons, judging it all on rotation is an excellent way to make yourself look like a moron. My friend who plays a tanksin easily breaks 300k, almost never dies, and guards healers like a champ. He tell me it's one of the most boring rotations he's ever had to play in an MMO - but I don't play a tanksin, so I wouldn't know.

 

If there's no skill curve, then why can a good pyrotech put out 500k+ without a problem and a bad pyrotech will linger around 200-250k? They're all just those stupid overpowered no-skill powertechs, right?

 

This mentality of 'anyone who beats me is obviously unskilled and playing an OP class' is what drives the nerf-crusade ever onwards. I get killed by good gunslingers and tankshadows all the time on my PT, but I don't ***** about it because they're more or less counters to the spec I play. That's why I try to avoid them if it's possible, and hit targets that will go down quickly, like healer sages/scoundrels.

[Twor]

Point to me one argument I've made through misinformation. I didn't resurrect this thread, someone else did. The thread itself, as well as many others, are stained with your ardent, relentless and absolutely misguided attempts to defend a spec that most the community know are overpowered.

 

I always try to keep my posts as accurate as possible, but I also don't suffer the pathetic whims of people who'd claim "Powertechs so squish, u 1 shot us with sage project".

 

Where is the accuracy in this:

 

Everyday more and more people roll the class, it requires 0 skill and is capable of doing incredibly high damage. It has very respectable defences, with heavy armour and the ability to reduce the cooldown of their shield. They aren't 'melee', as some would claim, as moves such as railshot can be used at 30m.

 

This is a rant. Nothing more. Espescially the very respectable defense part has been discussed for like aeons.

With the pyro haters always losing the argument.

Also it is a FACT that they need to be in melee to function 100% (stockstrike and interrupt).

They are a melee-close range (10m) class. If a pyro kills you from 100-0 from 30m you should consider uninstalling the game or not going afk in a wz.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Twor

[TheGreatFrosty]

Where is the accuracy in this:

 

 

 

This is a rant. Nothing more. Espescially the very respectable defense part has been discussed for like aeons.

With the pyro haters always losing the argument.

Also it is a FACT that they need to be in melee to function 100% (stockstrike and interrupt).

They are a melee-close range (10m) class. If a pyro kills you from 100-0 from 30m you should consider uninstalling the game or not going afk in a wz.

 

They aren't a melee class, they are a hybrid in between range and melee. A melee you can knockback and be safe in the knowledge that with a root, or a slow, you can keep them back and give you some breathing space.

 

This is not the case for Powertechs. They still have two moves (Railshot and another, I think) that they can use at 30m. So whilst they depend on melee to work 100%, they aren't completely gimped by the lack of melee range. I.e. they don't have the same possibility to be countered as say, sentinels.

 

When I wrote that, it was in part a rant, which I acknowledged as the post went on. That said, the only bit I consider inaccurate is '0 skill', as that is obviously hyperbolic and used to place emphasis on the fact that on a scale of all DPS classes, PT pyro requires the least and has the simplest of play styles.

 

As a DPS you do have great defences. I know you guys don't want to accept it, and for some reason think that being 'squishy' as a DPS is somehow unique to you, but the truth is you're one of the more durable DPSers. The only one more so is a sentinel. You complain about being squishy, as if it makes up for your ridiculously high burst, but have you ever played the other DPS classes? Does -25% reduction shield seem squishy? heavy armour?

 

You feel a sage is in a better position? How about a scoundrel DPS? What about commando? Or classes that have to stay still to be useful and do damage? At least with 100% mobility you are in a position to lay on the pressure, rather than presenting yourself as an appealing meal.

Edited June 29, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[Twor]

They aren't a melee class, they are a hybrid in between range and melee. A melee you can knockback and be safe in the knowledge that with a root, or a slow, you can keep them back and give you some breathing space.

 

This is not the case for Powertechs. They still have two moves (Railshot and another, I think) that they can use at 30m. So whilst they depend on melee to work 100%, they aren't completely gimped by the lack of melee range. I.e. they don't have the same possibility to be countered as say, sentinels.

 

When I wrote that, it was in part a rant, which I acknowledged as the post went on. That said, the only bit I consider inaccurate is '0 skill', as that is obviously hyperbolic and used to place emphasis on the fact that on a scale of all DPS classes, PT pyro requires the least and has the simplest of play styles.

 

As a DPS you do have great defences. I know you guys don't want to accept it, and for some reason think that being 'squishy' as a DPS is somehow unique to you, but the truth is you're one of the more durable DPSers. The only one more so is a sentinel. You complain about being squishy, as if it makes up for your ridiculously high burst, but have you ever played the other DPS classes? Does -25% reduction shield seem squishy? heavy armour?

 

You feel a sage is in a better position? How about a scoundrel DPS?

 

Like I said the defense argument has been brought by lots of people time and time again. I will not start it here with a list of the defensive CDs other classes have, starting from get away abilities like vanish, force camo etc to shields like rebuke finnishing in talents.

Spend some time and look them up if you want. But do not try to beat on a dead horse time and time again, its boring.

 

I also stated they are melee-close range.

Also the 30m abilities are required as our gap closer is on a long CD and doesn't work half of the time as it is affected by resolve.

Or do you expect us to run to the enemy while spamming hammershot half of the game?

[TheGreatFrosty]

Like I said the defense argument has been brought by lots of people time and time again. I will not start it here with a list of the defensive CDs other classes have, starting from get away abilities like vanish, force camo etc to shields like rebuke finnishing in talents.

Spend some time and look them up if you want. But do not try to beat on a dead horse time and time again, its boring.

 

I also stated they are melee-close range.

Also the 30m abilities are required as our gap closer is on a long CD and doesn't work half of the time as it is affected by resolve.

Or do you expect us to run to the enemy while spamming hammershot half of the game?

 

So because you feel the discussion has been heavily exercised, it is no longer worthy of discussion? Never go into academia.

[Twor]

So because you feel the discussion has been heavily exercised, it is no longer worthy of discussion? Never go into academia.

 

Thanks I already have a diploma

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=493290&page=6

 

There and on the following pages (not only by me) there are several posts regarding that matter.

 

Be my guest to discuss it, but not in 100 different threads and without any new arguments.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Twor

[Laforet]

Like I said the defense argument has been brought by lots of people time and time again. I will not start it here with a list of the defensive CDs other classes have, starting from get away abilities like vanish, force camo etc to shields like rebuke finnishing in talents.

Spend some time and look them up if you want. But do not try to beat on a dead horse time and time again, its boring.

 

I also stated they are melee-close range.

Also the 30m abilities are required as our gap closer is on a long CD and doesn't work half of the time as it is affected by resolve.

Or do you expect us to run to the enemy while spamming hammershot half of the game?

 

You are not going to run for long. Your hammer shots spam slows the target for 50%, and you apply it over and over and over again while attacking.

 

You are a 100% mobile, you never stop and you slow your enemies with the "no cost" spam attack at 30m range.

 

You will never run for long, you will almost ALWAYS get your target, powertechs are (almost) impossible to kite.

 

And yeah you guys keep crying about marauders CDs but you miss the fact that you actually OUTDAMAGE a marauder any day (if you are well played) and is 10 times harder to shutdown because YOU CANT BE KITED like a marauder would be.

 

Keep crying with heavy armor and a 25% dmg reduction CD.

 

Yeah yeah marauders got that invincible thing which is annoying but its their class design, if you like it roll a marauder, but saying your class sucks just because you dont have force camolike abilities is just very biased from your part.

 

What do you want? Best burst/sustained dps in PvP, kiting, impossible to kite, melee/ranged skills, heavy armor, dmg reduct CD, stealth, force camo, cover, heals, rebuke?

 

Thats what you want to be competitive right?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Laforet

[Twor]

You are not going to run for long. Your hammer shots spam slows the target for 50%, and you apply it over and over and over again while attacking.

 

You are a 100% mobile, you never stop and you slow your enemies with the "no cost" spam attack at 30m range.

 

You will never run for long, you will almost ALWAYS get your target, powertechs are (almost) impossible to kite.

 

And yeah you guys keep crying about marauders CDs but you miss the fact that you actually OUTDAMAGE a marauder any day (if you are well played) and is 10 times harder to shutdown because YOU CANT BE KITED like a marauder would be.

 

Keep crying with heavy armor and a 25% dmg reduction CD.

 

Mind to show me where I spec the 100% rate to proc my cell on hammershots? Our snare lasts 2 seconds btw. GCD is 1,5 seconds.The only skill to apply it with 100% chance is ip that has a 10m range, costs 2 ammo and does average damage at best.

 

Play a PT and try to keep the target slowed 100% of the time while also killing it from 100-0.

[UGLYMRJ]

So because you feel the discussion has been heavily exercised, it is no longer worthy of discussion? Never go into academia.

 

Common sense can not argue this statement... however... it would be nice if no one would discuss it again...

[TheronFett]

When I wrote that, it was in part a rant, which I acknowledged as the post went on. That said, the only bit I consider inaccurate is '0 skill', as that is obviously hyperbolic and used to place emphasis on the fact that on a scale of all DPS classes, PT pyro requires the least and has the simplest of play styles.

 

I have 4 level 50's, and another currently @ 47. All leveled through PvP. None of them are difficult to play. Your "skill" argument is completely baseless, as no class in this came requires any more skill than another. SWTOR is not a challenging game. It was designed so that the average WoW 14 year old could play it. Do not delude yourself into thinking that just because you rolled a melee class that you are somehow above the fold or that you have a higher level of so-called skill.

 

 

Clearly, you are unable to counter DPS Powertechs. I both play one (Vanguard version) and play against them on my other characters. They are not overpowered. I have had my butt kicked by every class, and I'm quite certain, including the one that you play. Yes, I will destroy people. Yes, I can 3vs1 and come out unscathed. Yes, I can put up 500k damage with 0 deaths. But here's the kicker: I can also be completely useless versus better players.

 

I hate to break this to you, but at some point, reality needs to set in. You're a bad. It's not that the other guy is overpowered or that your class is weak. It's you.

[Serrowherrow]

I think Pyro is entitled to do its single-target burst because of the unreliable factors surrounding it.

 

For every time you've been crit by railshot, TD, and then railshot again, I can gurantee there were five times where that same pyro hit you for 1700 on his railshot, 1500 on his TD, and then overheated trying to fish for the second railshot and barely got you down to 60%.

 

Not to mention, railshot can get screwed by so many things. Accuracy debuffs, deflection cooldowns, smuggler dodging ability, healer cleansing, all of these and more will almost guarantee a railshot miss, which is devastating to the rotation.

 

And people screaming about cleanses have no idea what they're talking about. There's a scoundrel in the lowbies on my server that I -hate- fighting. He's whatever the pub version of lethality is and has a nasty habit of cleansing my dots while running around, forcing me to either auto-attack and hope that my shots reapply a dot, or rack up a large amount of heat to keep him burning.

 

Often times I'll win, but end the fight with 90% or higher heat, which makes me a sitting target for the next guy who turns the corner.

 

In short, you can't take the best-case scenario for a class, put it against the class it counters best (squishy targets like sages) and call it OP.

 

Try taking the worst-case scenario and putting it against a class that hard-counters the pyro, how about a 1v1 tanksin with deflection and force-shroud up. All dots cleansed, no tech damage, first railshot parried, TD does almost nothing, and the next railshot proc doesn't even occur because RNG screws you.

[LancelotOC]

I can also be completely useless versus better players.

 

 

So all these better players that solo you on your PT all the time... first are you saying your bad and there is this army of better players and second does this regular occurence of better players soloing you happen from every other advanced class or is just specific classes?

 

Just trying to show you that you are being hard on yourself and all these people are not so much better than you it's probobly some classes are just a counter to your PT when it's solo.

[Serrowherrow]

Just trying to show you that you are being hard on yourself and all these people are not so much better than you it's probobly some classes are just a counter to your PT when it's solo.

 

I think this part right here is what people are missing.

 

Everyone seems to believe their class should be able to take anyone, anywhere, any time, under any circumstances. From my experience playing different classes, the only two classes in the game capable of this are annihilation marauders, and tank-assassins.

 

People just need to accept that there are variables at all times - RNG, adrenal buffs, outside dps/heals you didn't see, player skill, and more.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Serrowherrow

[Zorcha]

Just played a game against a team with 4 Vanguards.

Absolutely nothing we could do, its pointless. Insta death to everyone they went at.

Broken game, when is guild wars 2 again>?

[Trevalion]

while the premise Pyrotech do way too much damage is certainly correct. The reality of the class itself is that it requires alot more abilities or dare I say skill, then a sorc/sage, merc/comm, op/scon, and most certainly more then sent/maurader

 

Everyone thinks railshot railshot railshot which is just silly tbh but you need to set up railshot, a knowledgable player gets alot more railshots then others. Sure any idiot can be a high damage PT, but it requires a little more then a faceroll keyboard or 3 button wonders that other classes are

 

The problem here is that anyone who is even partly competent on any other class can excel wearing a VG/PT. The skill curve to effectively using the class is very low. Contrast that for example with how much management it takes to be effective on a sentinel/maurader and you get what we are seeing now. Everyone and their mom's are rolling up vg/pt because they are ridiculously easy to be effective with. Everyone likes to be effective. That is why they need to be adjusted. Not nerfed out of their niche role, but adjusted to make playing them require more skill and attention so that people stop rolling a PT to feel good about their wz experience.

[terpineva]

I've noticed a ton of them in rateds, and they do very well. There seem to be at least 2 on every team, and they usually top dps. After a few games in the rateds, there does seem to be some 'required' classes and PT is one of them.

 

Can we stop with the skill nonsense? It doesnt really matter and its childish.

[ShiroRX]

It's not surprising you see Powertechs and Guardians/Maras in so many dps trains, or so heavily in the trains, anyone with a brain would've figured out those classes don't need to stay still to do their damage.

 

Mobility and damage is they key to their strength, not that they do so much dmg. Snipers do waay more dmg than PTs.

 

Also, try actually killing the PT in the train. They go down easily. Use some coordination, cc healers, and destroy the pyro in 3 seconds.

Edited June 29, 2012 by ShiroRX

[Radsh]

There is a huge balance problem with power techs with ONE pyro spec, marauder with all spec, secret agent with heal spec etc... yeah there is a very few classes/spec that are just ver very unbalanced, a pyro merc should do more damage than power tech, they do way less damagae, have less burst and don't reisst as much, and that's just an exemple.

 

Justbe honest and look what "traisn" work and it's pyro/mauro/ssassin/secret agent 9 tims out of ten and the gap was just made" bigger with last patch and mods...

[ShiroRX]

There is a huge balance problem with power techs with ONE pyro spec, marauder with all spec, secret agent with heal spec etc... yeah there is a very few classes/spec that are just ver very unbalanced, a pyro merc should do more damage than power tech, they do way less damagae, have less burst and don't reisst as much, and that's just an exemple.

 

Justbe honest and look what "traisn" work and it's pyro/mauro/ssassin/secret agent 9 tims out of ten and the gap was just made" bigger with last patch and mods...

 

the only class in there with an issue is mercenary. the rest are all plenty strong. so what did u leave out? sorc, sniper? both still strong, especially sniper. Jugg? better than mara imo.