Bioware, Class balance and Powertechs

[Gidoru]

Here are my suggestions for a very reasonable rebalancing of Powertech.

 

1. Puncture Rail Shot ignores [ 20 / 40 / 60]% of the target's armor.

 

Moved higher up into advanced Prototype so that Pyros cannont spec into it while having 31 points in Pyro.

 

Reason- Railshot does way too much damage and should not bypass basically all armor.

 

2. Prototype Particle Accelerator

While Combustible Gas Cylinder is active, Flame Burst has a [15 / 30 / 45]% chance and Rocket Punch has a [20 / 40 / 60]% chance to finish the cooldown on Rail Shot and make the next Rail Shot free. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds

 

No longer affects Rail Shot, rather it has a chance to proc a new ability entirely. Cannont occur more than every 10 seconds.

 

Reason - Pyro is an extremely easy damage rotation, adding another primary ability to the rotation would make it somewhat more difficult.

[Vaipyr]

it requires 0 skill .

 

As soon as anyone makes this claim you can immediately disregard their post and chalk it all up to a L2P issue. Not that I think Pyro-PT's are balanced compared to other classes (which are UNDERpowered) but the whole "0-skill" argument is that of a baddie. Period.

[TheGreatFrosty]

As soon as anyone makes this claim you can immediately disregard their post and chalk it all up to a L2P issue. Not that I think Pyro-PT's are balanced compared to other classes (which are UNDERpowered) but the whole "0-skill" argument is that of a baddie. Period.

 

I admit, it's a slight use of hyperbole to convey the extremity of the point. They aren't without a single element of skill, as nothing can be, but relative to all other classes they require by far the lowest.

 

To put it simply, there is no scale to which a PT can apply himself, no "top end" or "low end". The spec itself is where the power exists, seldom (if absolutely ever) in the player.

[clearsighted]

In the past Bioware have commented on Sentinels and their position within the game, even at one point saying that their damage output was equal to that of a DPS guardian (at least by their metrics).

 

I would love to hear what they have to say about Powertechs.

 

 

Powertechs are currently a huge issue in SWTOR PVP class balance. Everyday more and more people roll the class, it requires 0 skill and is capable of doing incredibly high damage. It has very respectable defences, with heavy armour and the ability to reduce the cooldown of their shield. They aren't 'melee', as some would claim, as moves such as railshot can be used at 30m.

 

My server now sees premades with at least two powertechs regularly. I know this is only one example, and I can't exactly apply it to confirm that it's a gamewide problem, but there is certainly some correlation between the realisation of a certain overpowered spec (with certain itemization) and the rapid growth in the class' numbers (all of which appear to use said spec).

 

Perhaps fighting groups of them elevates the issue, but I know for a fact that most of these powertechs are individually poor players. They've had previous alts in the past, performed terribly, then rolled a powertech and suddenly, as if by some mystical force, started to top the DPS charts.

 

I go by the philosophy that there isn't a "good" or a "bad" powertech. There is just a powertech. With 0 skill curve, each and every powertech is an issue which raises serious questions about class balance.

 

I know I am not alone with these feelings, and for those who honestly believe that the class isn't in some way disproportionate to other DPSers, I can only say that you must be playing a different game. Gunslingers are the only class who can match their burst (at least post 1.3), but Gunslingers can be countered happily through some simple LOSing. Powertechs have a gap closer, a slow that is attached to their frequently used move, the capability of performing well at ranged as well as melee and above all else, 100% mobility.

 

Bottom line : I am honestly concerned that Bioware will make the same mistake with powertechs as they did with Shadow tanks. When 1.2 first hit I was one of the first people to raise concerns that there were no shadow tank nerfs, to which many shadow/assassins dismissed my claims as an "l2p" issue. Let this not be the last bastion that each OP spec supporter falls behind, these classes need to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

 

Will it take till 1.4 to deal with powertechs? What are Bioware's thoughts concerning the class? Are they performing to their supposed "targets", or over performing? Or is it, as I suspect, an issue that stems from their inability to balance PVE and PVP.

 

 

A few quick counter thoughts to those who would defend the class :

 

- Saying "Just put your entire team on them and then they die, GG all done", isn't evidence of class balance. It is the opposite of that.

 

-"They go down easily, just target them" All DPSers go down easily if t hey are targeted... it's meant to be that way. The difference is in that if you get two people to target a powertech, he has respectable mitigations with heavy armour and a -25% reduction shield. Now get two people to target a sage, see the difference in TTK. Simply put, they don't go down easily enough, if this is meant to somehow be the class' compromise for their over the top DPS.

 

-"You can't nerf PVP without destroying PVE". If this is true, it is simply not my problem but Bioware's. Their job is to settle the balance within this game and not have issues with PVE affect PVP in such a drastic way. Bioware would have to find some way to deal with the class' burst, whilst aiding their sustained damage in PVE.

 

EDIT : Apparently another clarification is needed: The adrenal nerf affects EVERYONE. DPS, heal and tanks. It certainly cannot be counted as a "nerf" to PTs only.

 

Everything you say is right on, but you'll get trolled nonetheless by L2P ****.

[HeavensTerror]

Real men play Shield Specialist.

[SajPl]

http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1339983995_Jaena-tank.jpg

 

Please explai to me is the Pyro Vanguard OP that topped the list or the tank (me that was right behind him) thank you.

People who can actually play their classes can do equally good numbers as a pyro PT, marauders can do that, tankins can do that, madness sorcs can do that, snipers can do that. L2P.

 

And before you say anything I know a sorc that could do 600k easily in tat round I know a mara that could do the same and me in pyro spec, guess what i also could do 600k, every dps class can do that. Hell my guildmate scrapper-scoundrel has made 600k on a voidstar and that was after their big nerf to flachette round.

[Shredzz]

I bet you'r one of those people who thought sorc's were OP. See how i can make asumptions. I don't see the justification in giving a heavy armor class the best burst in the game.

 

I bet your one of those ppl who thinks everyone rerolled pt, but wait theres still more mercs! its about as popular as sniper/operative so all the FOTM stuff is a load of ****

[Shredzz]

Here are my suggestions for a very reasonable rebalancing of Powertech.

 

1. Puncture Rail Shot ignores [ 20 / 40 / 60]% of the target's armor.

 

Moved higher up into advanced Prototype so that Pyros cannont spec into it while having 31 points in Pyro.

 

Reason- Railshot does way too much damage and should not bypass basically all armor.

 

2. Prototype Particle Accelerator

While Combustible Gas Cylinder is active, Flame Burst has a [15 / 30 / 45]% chance and Rocket Punch has a [20 / 40 / 60]% chance to finish the cooldown on Rail Shot and make the next Rail Shot free. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds

 

No longer affects Rail Shot, rather it has a chance to proc a new ability entirely. Cannont occur more than every 10 seconds.

 

Reason - Pyro is an extremely easy damage rotation, adding another primary ability to the rotation would make it somewhat more difficult.

 

cept that would make no sense as AP is built around buffing your internal/ele dmg with the odd railshot that only does 3k max on unexpertised targets and pyro is built around buffing your railshot(dots are a side bonus).

 

Seriously anyone can hit 5k+, if you cant your gear is wrong, your spec is wrong, your choosing wrong targets. I've seen tankassasins do 7k hits and juggs hit that frequently with smash.

 

THIS GAME ISNT A DPS/HEALER PVP GAME ITS A TANK/DPS/HEALER GAME, bring a tank to protect you, guard and taunts will protect you. If you cant face being ***** cause you aren't protected then sorry but this aint the game for you and you should choose a dps/healer platform where you feel godlike once more

[vimm]

You kids QQ'ing do realize that 1.3 is going to murder Powertech burst, and that healers will be 100% unkillable, right?

 

Nope, relics and adrenals are not the only way to kill healers, lol.

[Laforet]

I bet you are a sage that doesnt dispel my dots so i cant railshot

I bet you are a gunslinger that doesnt entrench fast enough so i cant stun and **** you with my railshot(cause cover counters railshot)

I bet you are a scoundrel who doesnt dispel my dots so i cant railshot

 

nuff said

 

Sages would dispel your DoTs if they COULD.

 

They cant.

 

Totally clueless desperate typical powertech atittude.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Laforet

[Bbizzle]

it requires 0 skill.

 

You know what other classes require no skill? All of them.

 

I have 5 50's of different Ac's and they are all piss easy.

 

Powertechs are easy to play, but you know what was easier? Sorc sage hybrid. Arsenal/Gunnery merc/mando.

 

And honestly, if you really want to know what the easiest GED class to play in this game is: Tankassins. Make the characters and play them.

[Esiqual]

The only place a PT Pyro is OP is in PUG groups due to lack of coordination and inability to prioritise targets, they will have ZERO place in a 8v8 premade ranked WZs. Any team that adds them into their composition is just terrible.

 

Yes their initial burst dmg is very high and likely should be lowered. BUT they lack any form of escape from focus fire. Almost every class has at least one skill to escape.

 

Consulars - Force speed combined with bubble (also 30m range + the shadow which is the closest in playstyle to PT pyro with a 4-10 metre range has resiliance + stealth)

Jedi Knights - Sabre Ward and leap (intercede or force camo depending on AC)

Scoundrels - Stealth and combat stealth

Trooper - None (unless you count the knockback snare combo on commando as an escape)

 

The ability to stay alive in a WZ will always trump the ability to do dmg, you cant defend or do dmg if you are in the respawn.

 

Every decent team in ranked will target the PT pyro FIRST even above healers, the tanks will make them a priority taunt target reducing their initial burst by 30% for at minimum 12 seconds. The reason for this is they cant escape or drop focus fire. This places them at a distinct disadvantage compared to other 4-10 metre ACs in the game that have at minimum 1 escape.

 

So a rebalance is in order, drop the initial burst down and require a longer setup period but give them an escape ability so they can also drop focus fire.

 

Also i completey agree that sage dps, OPs dps and commando dps need a buff in burst dmg but balanced by requiring either a longer setup period compared to melee burst.

[NoTomorrow]

I play Sniper and PT. And the main difference between them is that with sniper you cannot kill healers. Forget about this myth that MM Sniper is a counter to healers. This is BS. You cannot hunt down targets. You need to be mobile and follow them beyond the corner. I really really don't care what class you nerf next, the only thing i care about is that we always had a specialized class that can reliably shutdown healers that are even under guard.

 

If that is supposed to be marauder but no PT so be it. But we need these pests vulnerable. Every no-skill idiot can toss a guard on a heavy armor healer and spam taunts. I don't want one of the easiest combos in this game (that requires no special effort to organize, just stick around with the other dude) to dominate the PvP. I want healers dead.

And for that we either need PT in its current form, or Marauders.

 

I repeat again, snipers are not healer killers. If you killed a healer with your sniper, that was a bad healer, one that you most probably will not meet in ranked WZ. Healing will be a menace in WZ. And we need PT or Marauder to solve this problem.

Edited June 21, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Humankeg]

I think PT does have some disproportional high bursts but I think with relics/adrenal nerfed it'd probably stop some of the craziest burst possible.

 

As a Tankasin it feels like sometimes I auto lose if they get lucky with their crits, and if they didn't get lucky they auto lose against me. There's really no skill involved. There's like a certain % of crit they have to beat to beat me. It's a number higher than their base crit % but obviously they do win that game sometime and there's no fun losing or winning either way. Marauders are a tougher matchup but against them I don't feel like it's just a matter of who got lucky with crits.

 

As a tankassin, the only way you should lose to a PT/VG is if all your cd's are used. Tankasins are such a hard counter to PT's that it isn't even funny.

 

Here are my suggestions for a very reasonable rebalancing of Powertech.

 

1. Puncture Rail Shot ignores [ 20 / 40 / 60]% of the target's armor.

 

Moved higher up into advanced Prototype so that Pyros cannont spec into it while having 31 points in Pyro.

 

Reason- Railshot does way too much damage and should not bypass basically all armor.

 

2. Prototype Particle Accelerator

While Combustible Gas Cylinder is active, Flame Burst has a [15 / 30 / 45]% chance and Rocket Punch has a [20 / 40 / 60]% chance to finish the cooldown on Rail Shot and make the next Rail Shot free. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds

 

No longer affects Rail Shot, rather it has a chance to proc a new ability entirely. Cannont occur more than every 10 seconds.

 

Reason - Pyro is an extremely easy damage rotation, adding another primary ability to the rotation would make it somewhat more difficult.

 

Congrats, you have effectively gutted the spec completely. And no I do not exagerate, and no I am not a bad player. I am one of the best PT's you will face.

 

The changes themselves are not the problem, the fact you didn't buff other areas is. PT/VG are great at burst; argueably the best in the game. But really, that is all they have. Nerfing the burst that much, means they aren't really great at anything. PT's have bad survivability (no, heavy armor does not count, and no I will not explain why; look it up), bad utility, and only excelled at burst/damage.

 

Unless you plan to move that damage you nerfed (PT's are at the lower end of damage dealing classes) and buff either utility or survivability (or both) the class essentially becomes worthless. Its already a stretch to take a PT over a marauder or assassin due to their damage and utility and surivability. WIth these changes the PT will have no advantage in any sort of way what so ever.

[Twor]

In the past Bioware have commented on Sentinels and their position within the game, even at one point saying that their damage output was equal to that of a DPS guardian (at least by their metrics).

 

I would love to hear what they have to say about Powertechs.

 

 

Powertechs are currently a huge issue in SWTOR PVP class balance. Everyday more and more people roll the class, it requires 0 skill and is capable of doing incredibly high damage. .

 

Sorry but this compared with your "Sorcs don't have defense" makes you look like someone who is just whining and has a very very limited knowledge of PvP.

Like several people have stated if you think that your class (no matter what is is but probably a sorc from your post) requires skill you are lying to yourself.

And yes contrary to you I play a sage and a vanguard in the 50s bracket.

Take the time and look up the threads we already had, I won't waste mine to explain again to someone who doesn't understand how the class works about its strengths and weaknesses.

[Fdzzaigl]

People are hypocrites.

"Powertechs require 0 skill to play", but instead of offering more tools and options when they reduce the burst, they still labor for one dimensional nerfs that will kill the class in PvE and PvP.

In other words: "Class X has annoyed me with this that and that, please kill their spec for me BioWare."

 

The same people who equate skill to the number of buttons in your rotation are probably the people that I put dots and assault plastique on, then LoS and go drink tea while they stand there baffled, as they suddenly can't press their awesome series of buttons and take about 20 seconds to come up with a backup plan.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[Dmasterr]

People are hypocrites.

"Powertechs require 0 skill to play", but instead of offering more tools and options when they reduce the burst, they still labor for one dimensional nerfs that will kill the class in PvE and PvP.

In other words: "Class X has annoyed me with this that and that, please kill their spec for me BioWare."

 

The same people who equate skill to the number of buttons in your rotation are probably the people that I put dots and assault plastique on, then LoS and go drink cookies and tea while they stand there baffled, as they suddenly can't press their awesome series of buttons and take about 20 seconds to come up with a backup plan.

 

Isn't that what they did to operatives? make a class who's only strength was burst, then take it away without improving other aspects of the dps spec? (more and more each patch)

[Occu_lus]

PTs should not to be nerfed at all! I'm level 24 and doing 270k dmg on Voidstar. I would feel offended having my alt nerfed to a point where it does reasonable dmg!

[Sookster]

Glass cannon... I absolutely bet you haven't played sage, gunslinger or scoundrel at 50.

 

lol those classes has escape/kiting abilities, PT/VG gets a shield and mini self heal.

 

Personally I don't have a problem with the loss of relics/adrenals in 1.3, I don't pop it everytime it's up like many of the "pro" players do and I seem to do fine, learn to play the class without ouside buffs.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Sookster

[TheronFett]

Here are my suggestions for a very reasonable rebalancing of Powertech.

 

Reasonable for whom? LOL!

 

Here are my suggestions for a very reasonable rebalancing of your class:

 

1) Restrict wearing of any armor in warzones.

2) Reduce DPS output by 75%

3) Make all keybinds randomly change every 5 seconds

 

You whiners all crack me up with your nerf and "suggestion for tweak" posts. If you spent 1/2 as much time learning your own class and playing to its strengths, you'd be a lot better off. Don't like how it plays? Reroll.

 

Thanks again PvP forum. You continue to be my daily source of amusement.

[TheGreatFrosty]

Sorry but this compared with your "Sorcs don't have defense" makes you look like someone who is just whining and has a very very limited knowledge of PvP.

Like several people have stated if you think that your class (no matter what is is but probably a sorc from your post) requires skill you are lying to yourself.

And yes contrary to you I play a sage and a vanguard in the 50s bracket.

Take the time and look up the threads we already had, I won't waste mine to explain again to someone who doesn't understand how the class works about its strengths and weaknesses.

 

I bet you played a sage first, then rolled a Vanguard. See the pattern. Assumptions are fun.

 

I know it's tempting to dismiss someone's argument with "bet you don't have knowledge/skill", but it simply isn't true.

 

As I've previously stated in this thread my classes, at 50, are :

 

Sage

Gunslinger

Scoundrel

 

All of which I PVP regularly with. I never said sages have "no defense", it's considerably easier to get an upper hand in discussions though when you make up what the other guy said, I get that.

 

What I did say, was that the sage has proportionately weaker defense than any of the other DPS classes. It's not by chance that many people go for sage/sorc, as a means of maximising their damage. Or that the class is now played by very few.

 

EDIT : I feel this will need further clarification. I am not complaining about sage's position within the game, or that this is at all about that. That point simply provides a counter to those who would suggest PT is a "glass cannon". On a scale of DPS survivability, it really is not. Sage is glass without so much of the cannon. If this were meant to be Bioware's way of providing a compromise to PT's burst, then their defenses should reflect that - they currently don't.

Edited June 21, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[TheGreatFrosty]

People are hypocrites.

"Powertechs require 0 skill to play", but instead of offering more tools and options when they reduce the burst, they still labor for one dimensional nerfs that will kill the class in PvE and PvP.

In other words: "Class X has annoyed me with this that and that, please kill their spec for me BioWare."

 

The same people who equate skill to the number of buttons in your rotation are probably the people that I put dots and assault plastique on, then LoS and go drink tea while they stand there baffled, as they suddenly can't press their awesome series of buttons and take about 20 seconds to come up with a backup plan.

 

Reading comprehension.

 

Bottom counter argument of my post is as follows, for those unable to read through :

 

-"You can't nerf PVP without destroying PVE". If this is true, it is simply not my problem but Bioware's. Their job is to settle the balance within this game and not have issues with PVE affect PVP in such a drastic way. Bioware would have to find some way to deal with the class' burst, whilst aiding their sustained damage in PVE.

 

I am not advocating for them to destroy the class' PVE ability. I'd prefer the introduction of a new ability, to bring diversity to the rotation and offer more sustained damage whilst softening the currently over the top burst.

[Never_Hesitate]

Please do not nerf the whole class.

The specc you're having problems with is the Pyrotech specc.

 

Things like:

Reduce Railshot to 10 m.

do affect all speccs.

 

PS:

The tankspecc is already getting nerfed in 1.3.

[Blasphemerr]

I totally understand why developers would rather create a PVE game over PVP. You people are apples and bananas. Nerf everyone, who cares as long as i'm happy and op.

[Sookster]

I haven't pvp'd for a good while in the 10-49 bracket but did some last night, I'm noticing a large increase in powertech/vanguards- I guess everyone's done rolling marauders now.

 

In the 50 bracket, I still haven't seen a railshot over 6K, that must be a WH geared PT vs a fresh 50 that didn't buy recruit gear (there are lots of fresh 50's without pvp gear now waiting for free recruit gear in 1.3).

 

The one change I do like for my shieldtech PT is the AOE railshot which makes little sense by the way, they should've made heat blast AOE just like how they changed crushing blow on jugg.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Sookster