Rail Shot / High Impact Bolt

[xxprimalxx]

Ok so if i understand you are looking for an animation to announce a rail shot? Not sure about republic version, howeve BH version the avatar will raise its left arm move left leg back and "lock" into place as if bracing to fire a wrist rocket. You see that. Railshot inc.

[ceelaniri]

*shrug* If you don't consider grapple and taunts to be just as high utility as speed buffs and friendly pulls, I don't know what to tell you. They're just different kinds of utility. (Plus, I think most people could agree that the Sentinel is very unique with it's group wide buffs)

 

Not sure what you're getting at with distance. A Powertech WANTS other people close. That's where they do the most of their damage. Maybe they don't want them quite at 4 meters, but certainly within 10 meters. And Powertechs get all the tools to help them snare/root/slow with the best of them.

 

25% damage mitigation is nothing to sneeze at. It will at least buy you some time. Same with the small heal over time. Sure, it's not great, but it's not really terrible either.

 

Very few attacks are actually Elemental/Internal. That's mainly just bleeds, burns, and such. Armor protects against the majority of heavy hitting attacks in the game. So that damage mitigation still goes further than any class wearing medium or light armor. Plus, I find it slightly funny that a Powertech would even complain about their own armor, when their Railshot can penetrate through 90% of it.

 

I could compare Powertech with other classes. I would still come to mostly the same conclusions. I could compare other classes with Scoundrel/Operative as well, and have done so in many other occasions. DPS scoundrels usually come up short in terms of survivability and overall utility.

 

well go on, compare the PT pyro to other spec and give more context to its "high" utility, i d be pretty curious to see that.

 

all you have done was judging skills on their own and saying they were not bad:

 

i.e. yes a dmg reduction of 25% is nothing to sneeze at but compared to what other classes get, it is simply not in the top defensive skill at all.

 

a grapple and 2 taunts (that reduces dmg by 30% for 6 sec) are useful but that doesnt make the class have high utility compared to otherr classes (i.e. sorc) it is not high utility or even compared to PT tank spec (it gets a gap closer and a guard).

 

hence high single dps, hence HIB dmg potential.

Edited June 19, 2012 by ceelaniri
typo

[Coldin]

*snip*

 

*shrug* Fine. But I'm just going to make it between other DPS specs.

 

Guardian. Vigilance Spec.

 

They get one leap to jump to someone. It can root for 3 seconds. Comparable to the grapple maybe, but debatable if it's more useful. Grapple lets you actually move another player to your location, which can be used strategically. Leaps are more useful for just slowing someone down, though multiple knights leaping on a target can keep them rooted for a fair amount of time.

 

Damage of the Vigilance spec simply doesn't compare. The dots applied are pretty weak, and more to just annoy stealth classes. They get some ability to auto-crit one skill, and repeatable use Master Strike, but without any roots or slows to keep enemies in place.

 

Survivability....is about the same I guess. They get saber ward, but without any additional ability to boost it. They also get focused defense, which can be talented to reduce damage by 15%, but it also eats up focus and doesn't last very long. (I believe it's about 15 seconds.)

 

 

Shadows (Does anyone even run Infiltration spec?)

 

Powertechs are going to have an issues with Assassins, mainly because they can heal as you attack them. That gives them a lot of extra survivability in most encounters. Force Shroud also makes them immune to CC for up to 5 seconds, and vanish means they can escape an encounter if it gets too dangerous. They don't get to deal a ton of damage unless they get the right procs for it, so overall their damage potential is less.

 

They do get a grab and a sprint, and taunts, which will put their utility above a Powertech. Honestly, puts it above pretty much anyone. In DPS specs though, they don't get the grapple, so that puts them basically on the same level in terms of Utility.

 

Gunslingers (Any spec really)

 

Gunslingers are interesting, because they basically have zero utility. They get to sit in cover, have a few roots and knockbacks, and that's about it. Their one benefit is being able to dot targets up, apply armor debuffs, and generally be a nuisance if left alone. They have pretty much no survivability once a targets can get one them in melee range though.

 

DPS overall, is probably comparable. I'd argue that Pyrotechs have more, but Gunslingers can do it more on demand and from 35 meters out.

 

Sages (DPS specs)

 

Squishiest of all the classes. Light armor, only gets about a 3k bubble to protect them from one hit, and a sprint for utility. They do get an advantage of having a decent spammable AOE attack, as well as having a range and root advantage. Overall though, their DPS ranks a bit lower than the current top DPSers.

 

Healing spec Sages do get a friendly pull, but this is pretty much only valuable in huttball. You usually don't get to save someone from death just by pulling them across a skirmish but it can help. They probably have some of the least utility outside of the sprint, but I guess they do get to toss bubbles on everyone which can help in a pinch.

 

Commandos (Assault/Pyro spec)

 

It's worse than a Vanguard in every way. Nothing more to really say here.

[ceelaniri]

well that s a lot to write, i d give you that but why limiting it to some dps spec?

 

why chosing these specs and not other (i.e. PT proto or Sniper lethality etc..)?

[Coldin]

well that s a lot to write, i d give you that but why limiting it to some dps spec?

 

why chosing these specs and not other (i.e. PT proto or Sniper lethality etc..)?

 

Mainly, wanted to compare DPS to DPS. It's not really fair to compare a healer to a DPS. They bring completely different things to the table.

 

Sniper Lethality is good. I'd actually argue most of the sniper specs are good, though Marksmanship is probably the highest single target DPS. But spec doesn't really change their overall utility as much as other classes. It just changes how they deal their dps, and whether it's AOE or DOT or Burst.

 

Lethality is great for putting up high damage numbers, and really annoying any stealth classes, but it's not so great for just bursting someone down.

[Glimmerstrike]

I doubt I have hit for 4k 10 times in warzones with fully augmented WH gear that sports 500+ Bonus damage 76%+ surge. Say what you will but your info is in accurate.

 

 

PS I am V89 so I have a played a fair amount

[Daiyukie]

[...] why not nerf every high damage skill any class have, [...]

 

You mean like what they did to Scoundrels? Yeah, that'd be totally unfair...

[vimm]

1) HiB/Rail Shot only applies to burning or incapacitated targets.

2) 90% armor penetration must be spec'd.

3) It's base weapon damage.

4) 4k crit is not "automatic" as indicated, but is possible.

 

Now, here's a quarter so you can call the Waaaambulance.

 

From a payphone? They're more than a quarter.

[blue_talon]

This topic again lol.

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s459/Carthy1/Screenshot_2012-06-15_21_06_19_081078.jpg

 

I is op.

 

agree

 

That would be the sorcerer "geographic" with 863910 in healing and 67 kills.

 

Guys... Thats a "Whats wrong with your face" premade. PVP Guild on Dalborra. And Carth/Carthy is, well, painful to play against. Also look at the heals in the match compared to DPS and the final score.... seems like two good teams countering each other for the full ACW match.

 

They are great when they are on your team and a pain in the butt when they are not. Most are in Augmented WH gear and... shock horror... all pretty good players.

 

And dont think Pyro PTs cant be beaten.... just call your friendly Sniper up and say kill the bad pyro man please. Its what they are there for. Problem solved. Enjoy our QQ.

[Pendrych]

My two mains are an AP/Pyro hybrid PT and a Vigilance Guardian, so your Vig argument gets a more in-depth response. They are both highly effective DPS specs but play very differently.

 

*shrug* Fine. But I'm just going to make it between other DPS specs.

 

Guardian. Vigilance Spec.

 

They get one leap to jump to someone. It can root for 3 seconds. Comparable to the grapple maybe, but debatable if it's more useful. Grapple lets you actually move another player to your location, which can be used strategically. Leaps are more useful for just slowing someone down, though multiple knights leaping on a target can keep them rooted for a fair amount of time.

 

You forgot CC immunity and 20% DR for 4s every time they charge from Unremitting/Unstoppable, which is possibly one of the best talents in the game. A good Vigilance Guardian will also bounce around like a ping-pong ball of death by using their friendly charge to help reapply this buff as often as possible. Speaking of which, that friendly charge in and of itself is pretty darned good utility.

 

Damage of the Vigilance spec simply doesn't compare. The dots applied are pretty weak, and more to just annoy stealth classes. They get some ability to auto-crit one skill, and repeatable use Master Strike, but without any roots or slows to keep enemies in place.

 

Wrong. They have a PBAoE slow that only costs 2 focus/rage to apply and can be specced to be free. Their autocrit ability works on one of their harder hitting attacks and their execute ability. If you hit 30% health against a Vig Guardian, you are not long for this world. The DoTs are about a 10-20% damage increase on their three hardest hitting abilities, typically for about 2 talent points each. They're actually a really good return on points spent.

 

Survivability....is about the same I guess. They get saber ward, but without any additional ability to boost it. They also get focused defense, which can be talented to reduce damage by 15%, but it also eats up focus and doesn't last very long. (I believe it's about 15 seconds.)

 

Saber Ward is light years better than Energy Shield, but is on a 3m timer so it's less reliable - in my experience they even out. Focused defense also comes with a 3% heal every time the Guardian is hit and can be activated while stunned. It's a Focus hog, but very effective if you're running close to full focus, which most Vig Guardians will be shortly after they engage. It is much, much better than Kolto overload.

 

 

Shadows (Does anyone even run Infiltration spec?)

 

Powertechs are going to have an issues with Assassins, mainly because they can heal as you attack them. That gives them a lot of extra survivability in most encounters. Force Shroud also makes them immune to CC for up to 5 seconds, and vanish means they can escape an encounter if it gets too dangerous. They don't get to deal a ton of damage unless they get the right procs for it, so overall their damage potential is less.

 

They do get a grab and a sprint, and taunts, which will put their utility above a Powertech. Honestly, puts it above pretty much anyone. In DPS specs though, they don't get the grapple, so that puts them basically on the same level in terms of Utility.

 

A good Tankassin will eat me alive and I'll be lucky to get him under 2/3 health on my PT in a 1v1. In 1/4 of WZs though, there'll be no point in them engaging me in a 1v1 because I'll rarely catch them long enough to do a lot of damage in Huttball without three other people with me. Even then, they usually blow their tech/force immunity cooldown and Force Speed away. I use the tankassin example because as you stated, you'll rarely find a DPS specced Assassin. instead it'll be a Tankassin with modded DPS gear.

 

Gunslingers (Any spec really)

 

Gunslingers are interesting, because they basically have zero utility. They get to sit in cover, have a few roots and knockbacks, and that's about it. Their one benefit is being able to dot targets up, apply armor debuffs, and generally be a nuisance if left alone. They have pretty much no survivability once a targets can get one them in melee range though.

 

DPS overall, is probably comparable. I'd argue that Pyrotechs have more, but Gunslingers can do it more on demand and from 35 meters out.

 

A good Gunslinger/Sniper will kill me with very little chance to retaliate if they catch me in the open with range. If I get in 10m they're usually mine unless they're very, very good. This matchup is less about class balance and more about who uses the terrain to control the range - almost ideal balance IMHO.

 

Sages (DPS specs)

 

Squishiest of all the classes. Light armor, only gets about a 3k bubble to protect them from one hit, and a sprint for utility. They do get an advantage of having a decent spammable AOE attack, as well as having a range and root advantage. Overall though, their DPS ranks a bit lower than the current top DPSers.

 

Healing spec Sages do get a friendly pull, but this is pretty much only valuable in huttball. You usually don't get to save someone from death just by pulling them across a skirmish but it can help. They probably have some of the least utility outside of the sprint, but I guess they do get to toss bubbles on everyone which can help in a pinch.

 

This depends entirely on the sage, though my gut feeling is that it's about 60/40 in my PT's favor, everything else being equal. The main danger here is that any 1v1 will quickly become a 2v1 - if they know what they're doing, they can use their CC abilities, sprint, knockback (usually with the 5s root) and bubble to hold out long enough for help to arrive.

 

Commandos (Assault/Pyro spec)

 

It's worse than a Vanguard in every way. Nothing more to really say here.

 

Against DPS commando? Yeah. They rarely beat me. Healing or hybrid Healing/DPS commandos can be anywhere from annoyingly hard to kill to brutal depending on how good the player is. DPS commandos are like snipers - if they find a good spot and people don't get on them, they wreck face, but they tend to fold quickly once a PT is actually on them. The problem here is that too many don't play to their ranged strengths and just charge in.

 

Are Pyro PTs and their derivatives good? Of course they are. So is every other DPS spec I've encountered in the game, with the right player behind them. It's all about figuring out what the other guy's AC can do and playing to their weaknesses. Too many people come up against a class they know nothing about, get their face shot in, and come whining to the forum instead of educating themselves on what they can do to make the matchup even the next time they run into Class XYZ.

 

As for Rail Shot/HiB, people have been making a lot of arguments about Accuracy and the 5K railshot. They're mutually exclusive, because to get the ability to hit that hard, you have to regear for Power Surge by ripping out the enhancements in your gear which have all that Accuracy on them. It's a tradeoff. As for tells, as mentioned there's our laugh, and there's also about a .5s delay when we hit Rail Shot and when the ability actually fires. As someone mentioned, the PT will lock legs and point their left arm at a target. It's been rare, but I have been killed or CCed while in mid-animation and not had the ability fire off.

 

Honestly your best defense (and I probably shouldn't advertise this) is to break up our rhythm so you aren't eating the base RS and the proc back-to-back. LOS, CC, do what you have to do after we hit you with a RS about 5s later. Every second more than that 6s internal cooldown we have on our PPA proc is less burst and more heat we have to deal with, increasing your chance of getting the upper hand or holding out until someone else arrives to help you. And once that happens, the Pyro is toast, because when focused or CCed we fold easily, unlike a Tankassin or Marauder, who with the right cooldowns will probably still finish off their target before they go down - and Carbonize is a nice ability, but it's got nothing on Flashbang for extricating from a focus fire situation.

[NoTomorrow]

What the most L2P dudes complaining about railshot need in this game is a big flytext that will tell them:

YOU HAVE JUST DODGED A RAILSHOT. the amount of time this ranged attack misses can only be matched by sniper ambush..

 

Pls everyone, read again in details about RANGED ATTACKS and how do they work before coming and complaining on forums.

[Zepidel]

YOU HAVE JUST DODGED A RAILSHOT. the amount of time this ranged attack misses can only be matched by sniper ambush..

 

You mean 5% of the time like all other ranged attacks? Also do you mean misses or dodged because those are two different things. If you're missing a lot stack more accuracy, you might as well, its either accuracy or you over cap the hell out of your surge.

[Bbizzle]

If you think your being crit for 5k every time he railshots your dumb. Im not full war hero yet, but I usually tend to see 3700-3900s usually. With squishy not fully geared targets hitting 4ks You only ever get 5k+ with cooldowns, and only -sometimes- And relics and adrenals are already being addressed in 1.3 so what your basically saying is, "Scissors is fine, so's paper, nerf rock."

[NoTomorrow]

lol, I find it funny that 2 out of the three OP classes are ganging up on the poor powertech. Guess it's not enough that a juggs smash can hit 5 people for 6k damage, or sins can wail on people with 4.5k attacks and maras can hit a BM geared sage for 5k on almost every hit.

 

Hate to tell ya, but powertech/vanguard are needed to level the playing field against the force abusers.

 

Its because dudes playing these 3 classes are used to faceroll everyone, and suddenly they discover that a class can fight back.

[okwathne]

If you consider 10% chance to take 0 dmg a decent chance then I´m afraid you are here just to troll.

 

You would like to be more like Rambo, and not have ranged atacks hit you?

[DarkSideTOR]

Interesting discussion. However, just wanted to clarify. Yes, it can be Shielded for partial % damage reduction by an AC that uses Shields. However, Crits bypass Shields completely. Just wanted to put that out there, especially considering that it's the Crits that are being talked about.

 

 

 

 

And I see nothing wrong with this. A DPS class doing good DPS. Sounds WAI. And 4K+ Crits are pretty common, even among non-DPS classes. So you will hear no QQ from me.

 

To the OPs point though, he is not QQing about the skill per se, but about not being able to spot it. He is right in that most classes have some sort of trigger/indicator when their heavy shot is coming. I think he is correct on that point. There is no real cue for this skill. Should there be one? I'm undecided.

 

Yeah most dps classes can crit that, but can ALL dps classes crit for damn near 6k on full WH geared players? good chance they can do it every 6 seconds if they get two HIB crits in a row.

[csmnstoica]

Ok so if i understand you are looking for an animation to announce a rail shot? Not sure about republic version, howeve BH version the avatar will raise its left arm move left leg back and "lock" into place as if bracing to fire a wrist rocket. You see that. Railshot inc.

 

That is not a good animation. You can miss it even 1v1, let alone in a group setting with AOE effects. Compare it with Project "Yo' look at me hurling boulders at your head" and its LOL.

It needs an overhaul. Either something more obvious or a small cast time. I dont think it will mean a nerf or break the class if Railshot/HIB gets a 1 sec cast time.

I do admit the laugh sound is an OKish tell for CD up on railshot, even if its annoying as hell.

[Didy_Kush]

Yeah most dps classes can crit that, but can ALL dps classes crit for damn near 6k on full WH geared players? good chance they can do it every 6 seconds if they get two HIB crits in a row.

Railshot and High impactbolt will rarely hit 6k on 0 expertise players average is 4k on Warhero geared players lol.

[csmnstoica]

People need to read the OP before posting. There are maybe 7 posts in the entire thread that are on topic, the rest should be deleted.

[LordExozone]

Not sure if this has been said already, but railshot does come with a distinct warning: your toon is on fire first. And after the BH uses this first railshot it takes 15 seconds before he can fire it again, so if after 15 seconds your toon is again on fire, you know you are once again about to get hit by a railshot!

 

There is also a specced proc that resets the cooldown on railshot. This is indicated by a very obvious laugh when it procs. So if you hear this laugh, and your toon is on fire, you can expect another railshot to hit you soon after.

[DweezillKagemand]

The only other classes I see getting close to the same kinds of damage (consistently) are snipers and marauders. And I'm pretty sure for snipers it's their dot based spec.

 

Nah, 0/21/20 has the most damage.

 

Full Lethality is bad. I'd rather go 0/18/23 or 0/20/21 than full Lethality tbqh.

Edited June 20, 2012 by DweezillKagemand

[Briggs_Knightly]

Agree with the OP here. Railshot needs a distinctive animation or a small cast time (aka a warning sign - big hurt coming your way). Its the only HIGH DMG SPELL in game with no tell tell signature (although some of the Jedi knights/sith warrs moves are also luckluster and obscure)

 

Edit: people really need to read the OP post first before posting "l2p" and other offtopic advice.

 

The problem with changing Rail Shot is that it affects Mercs as well.

You can not weaken one of the weaker classes in an effort to slow the OP burst damage of PTs.

 

What needs to change is: FIX FLAME BURST or REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME ENTIRELY.

FB needs to be on a min 6 sec timer and the heat cost needs to be increased.

PTs will fight/cry about it but this CAN NOT continue the way it is.

 

FB >>> IM and IM costs 25 heat.

FB >>> TD and TD is on 15 second timer

 

PT is by far the easiest class to win with because of the relationship between FB and RS.

 

There can be additional steps like moving the bonus damage to RS higher in the tree so Pyro spec has to choose between mega fire damage OR mega RS damage but not both.

 

The only other thing that I can think of... Is to remove Rail Shot from PTs

So Mercs would get RS and PTs would get FB.

They are both at about the same level in terms or power.

Giving 1 class both of those is what is creating the problem.

[AppleRedX]

LOL@Briggs

Sounds like u got beaten badly by a pyro recently

 

Why not delete this class entirely or give him a bamboo stick and one attack skill with 1 dmg. and then lets do this with all other classes.

 

People crying for nerd of class <insert anyone> should spend more time getting better in this game.

AppleRedX

[Dmasterr]

Rail shot requires your target to suffer from periodic damage or be stunned /incapacitated.

 

It has no exclusive relation to flame burst, and the periodic damage can come from any source (such as other ppl, omg i know rite? its not 1v1:rolleyes:)... not necessarily the pwertech.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dmasterr

[TBSMiser]

Mainly, wanted to compare DPS to DPS. It's not really fair to compare a healer to a DPS. They bring completely different things to the table.

 

Sniper Lethality is good. I'd actually argue most of the sniper specs are good, though Marksmanship is probably the highest single target DPS. But spec doesn't really change their overall utility as much as other classes. It just changes how they deal their dps, and whether it's AOE or DOT or Burst.

 

Lethality is great for putting up high damage numbers, and really annoying any stealth classes, but it's not so great for just bursting someone down.

 

Yeah, definitely don't want to compare healers to DPS. Cherry-picking information that supports your opinion works too well. So PT Pyro is overall better than a DPS Op,...great. How does a PT tank rate relatively to an Op healer? You guys are complaining about an AC's BEST spec's BEST attack. (One that we give up a TON to get.) No CC, no escapes, terrible cooldowns. PT Pyro's have no options. We're the glass cannons of SWtOR.

 

People cry about Pyro's cos the class is easy to get to the "mediocre" level of dps results, but tough to become truly exceptional. There are very few TERRIBLE pyro's, cos it is damn near impossible. However, we see plenty of terribads from most of the other classes.

 

You all do realize railshot got nerfed already, right? (1.2) If you honestly think that a PT Pyro is the most over-powered class, you're prolly playing one of the classes that are more overpowered than them. Notice how the original poster conceded the fact that railshot doesn't bother certain "OP classes"? Later he added that it didn't bother tanks. What does that leave, man? Ohhhhhh,....the classes that we're SUPPOSED to be good against.