arcadean Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) First off I have to say why in the world would you do this bioware....I mean what is the logic into taking away burst in the game....I am writing this and I hope many of the members in the community who know how to pvp will agree, this is going to make pvp stale and pointless. The whole point of popping adrenals is for the burst to quickly down an enemy guarding a node, carrying a flag etc.....Now with this healers can just sit there and heal all day and not have to worry about the person there healing dying. This goes the same for the warzone expertise adrenals.....you keep the damage reduction but take away the healing and damage.... Bioware says they listen to the community, since when did any of the community ask for something like this...Dont fix something that wasnt broke. Bioware needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. I hate to say it but WOW's resillience works, stop trying to change it cause its not going to work...... well folks lets keep this going with just a /sign if you are against this change or If you have any other examples or input feel free. If you are all for this change then explain why you feel that way. **quick edit to my point.... give us back the on use abilties on relics, the adrenals I will agree at not letting them be used as its an unfair crafting skill edge so i will agree there....since you are giving us the ability to craft the warzone adrenals but there again put the increase in damage and healing back on the expertise adrenals. I think that what i just listed will do a few things, 1. tone down the burst but still giving us the ability to choose when we burst, and 2 gives biochems another item to craft to be competitive in the crafting area, and GTN. Edited June 6, 2012 by arcadean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Its more than just burst damage! It sucks for a tank as well the defense adrenals and relics really helped out vrs certain classes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcadean Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 good example....Bioware needs to understand that pvp isnt just balanced around a certain class but a player as well. Taking away on use just makes it easy mode for the rest of the not so skilled player.....but which is better to make the more skilled pvp player base angry or the not so skilled learning to use the on use...I go with the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevalion Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I don't agree with you OP. The change was absolutely needed. There were multiple times in a single warzone where one player could stack burst to levels that made it IMPOSSIBLE to survive a single DPS rotation. Thats ridiculously dumb and incredibly frustrating to be on the end of. Coming in here to claim that because it was there during the last 6 months makes it into an integral part of the pvp meta-game is pretty silly to say the least, The bottom line is, it was OP. It doesn't matter if everyone was doing it, that doesn't make it right. Not only that, but it REQUIRED that anyone who is "serious" about pvp level up biochem. The margin of effectiveness gained by having biochem and all those rakata adrenals was so ridiculously large that any "serious" pvper would be a fool to not take it. The fact that the DPS burst gained by having them was very outside the normal curve of the SAME class without them, and that to have them REQUIRED rolling biochem combined pretty much guaranteed that a nerf was incoming. And look, here you are on the forums crying about it. TL:DR Man up, this was a needed change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ngamok Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I don't agree with you OP. The change was absolutely needed. There were multiple times in a single warzone where one player could stack burst to levels that made it IMPOSSIBLE to survive a single DPS rotation. Thats ridiculously dumb and incredibly frustrating to be on the end of. Coming in here to claim that because it was there during the last 6 months makes it into an integral part of the pvp meta-game is pretty silly to say the least, The bottom line is, it was OP. It doesn't matter if everyone was doing it, that doesn't make it right. Not only that, but it REQUIRED that anyone who is "serious" about pvp level up biochem. The margin of effectiveness gained by having biochem and all those rakata adrenals was so ridiculously large that any "serious" pvper would be a fool to not take it. The fact that the DPS burst gained by having them was very outside the normal curve of the SAME class without them, and that to have them REQUIRED rolling biochem combined pretty much guaranteed that a nerf was incoming. And look, here you are on the forums crying about it. TL:DR Man up, this was a needed change. Pretty much this. if you haven't been on the receiving end of a PT / VG / Marauder / Sent popping adrenals and stacking relics, I don't understand how you think that was a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcadean Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 I don't agree with you OP. The change was absolutely needed. There were multiple times in a single warzone where one player could stack burst to levels that made it IMPOSSIBLE to survive a single DPS rotation. Thats ridiculously dumb and incredibly frustrating to be on the end of. Coming in here to claim that because it was there during the last 6 months makes it into an integral part of the pvp meta-game is pretty silly to say the least, The bottom line is, it was OP. It doesn't matter if everyone was doing it, that doesn't make it right. Not only that, but it REQUIRED that anyone who is "serious" about pvp level up biochem. The margin of effectiveness gained by having biochem and all those rakata adrenals was so ridiculously large that any "serious" pvper would be a fool to not take it. The fact that the DPS burst gained by having them was very outside the normal curve of the SAME class without them, and that to have them REQUIRED rolling biochem combined pretty much guaranteed that a nerf was incoming. And look, here you are on the forums crying about it. TL:DR Man up, this was a needed change. so basically you are saying that there shouldnt be burst in pvp....So when for example you have to take out player guarding mid for example in alderaan where you have no burst and the players just keep respawning and keep rotating out cause of the lack of burst to be able to capture that node......hmmm how many games have you pvp'ed? You need burst, not for the sake of having big numbers for your youtube video to show off but you need it for that game-changing moment...to say that is SILLY.....now on the other hand that I will agree with you on is that was the burst to bursty.....yes it was...but not at the expense of taking away our choice of when to burst......What they should have done was tone down surge again....give it steeper diminishing returns. The change for burst needs to be a stat change not an item change. oh btw dont come into my thread when i ask for both sides CONSTRUCTIVELY and tell me to man up.....thats just plain childish...thank you have a nice day!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 It's not so much that adrenals are bad but that adrenals means everyone has to be Biochem to be competitve. Do people seriously never saw a healer heal half of his life in one heal and not realize that there's probably an adrenal involved too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelationjp Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I would never have asked for this change, and it seems on the surface at least to be an effort at catering to the lowest common denominator, myself included in this case. In my badness I constantly forget that my WZ adrenals and relic are there, ready to help me out, and blithely go about using my abilities while neglecting the things that could've won me the fight. (in most areas I'm pretty decent, if i do say so myself.) So, in conclusion, now you all are going to be down to my level of badness, and welcome! I'm King here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcadean Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 Pretty much this. if you haven't been on the receiving end of a PT / VG / Marauder / Sent popping adrenals and stacking relics, I don't understand how you think that was a good thing. Oh but I have been on many of the receiving ends of this....Its called burst for a reason....thats the whole point.....People are missing the point here. You arent supposed to survive burst its called that for a reason....you can only do it every what..3 minutes...and you cant stack relics you can only use 1 then the other 20 seconds later...but not at the same time.... Like I said this should be a stat change not an item mechanic change. If anything I think we can all agree on is that burst is too bursty....tone down the amount that the adrenal and relic provides....for example on the battlemaster power relic..instead of increasing power by 380 tone it down to say 300....make changes like that.. The whole point of this thread is to revert back to on use not the passive or on hit with the new ones they are going to provide......nerf the amount that the relics and adrenals increase the stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevalion Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 so basically you are saying that there shouldnt be burst in pvp....So when for example you have to take out player guarding mid for example in alderaan where you have no burst and the players just keep respawning and keep rotating out cause of the lack of burst to be able to capture that node......hmmm how many games have you pvp'ed? You need burst, not for the sake of having big numbers for your youtube video to show off but you need it for that game-changing moment...to say that is SILLY.....now on the other hand that I will agree with you on is that was the burst to bursty.....yes it was...but not at the expense of taking away our choice of when to burst......What they should have done was tone down surge again....give it steeper diminishing returns. The change for burst needs to be a stat change not an item change. oh btw dont come into my thread when i ask for both sides CONSTRUCTIVELY and tell me to man up.....thats just plain childish...thank you have a nice day!! So basically your saying that without adrenals and relics there is no burst? C'mon man, thats just a knee-jerk reaction to a PERCEIVED change. Better break out the tin-foil hat, seriously. The burst classes still have burst, they just don't have any that falls WAAAAAAY outside the normalized curve for the class (and any class for that matter). The removal of the spike damage from relic + adrenal combo is obviously intended to bring the burst damage back down to realistic levels. Timing will still be required, stealth will still kick ***, marauders will still be burst demons and have awesome defensive cooldowns. The world is not ending, and your thread is still a QQ. Additionally, my experience in pvp is good enough for me, I dont give a **** about you bro, just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinlynn Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 It's not so much that adrenals are bad but that adrenals means everyone has to be Biochem to be competitve. Do people seriously never saw a healer heal half of his life in one heal and not realize that there's probably an adrenal involved too? Again, this is not an accurate or true statement. Consumable Adrenals and Stims are the same as the re-usable ones. Other than Rakata which is a special case all together. If you want rakata stuff then roll Biochem. Otherwise you have access to everthing else and Rakata is not so much better that it is anything to cry about. If you want the best med packs, get the prototype versions from your local Biochem. Those come with a HOT that make them the best in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevalion Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) Pretty sure your point simply was that the removal of the adrenals + relic removed your option of timing maximum burst to be when you wanted it. Additionally, you were saying that they could have toned down the insane burst damage without removing the adrenals + relic altogether. I can see from your edit that my point about biochem being required makes some sense to you as well. I am pretty sure from the patch notes (I havent logged into PTS yet either, stupid work) that there are activated relics still available, they just have to be purchased again. I will gain more details later. I still disagree with you though, having an extra button/cooldown to click for a consumable doesn't add anything to your timing strategy, it only added to the payload. The timings for your dps rotations are still exactly the same in all cases. Its still a crutch. I will admit that it helps to pull a win out if situations where you wouldnt normally expect one. Everyone I know likes the feeling of pulling a win out of the jaws of defeat. This change actually should bring MORE of those moments as the window for achieving them has been widened to include more situations (see the insane burst available from the consumables actually narrows the opportunity to let your skill shine through, you follow?) Anyhoo, Im done with forum lurking and I am heading home to log into PTS. Lata hata Edited June 7, 2012 by Qishari wuoted insults Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sauerkraut Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 good example....Bioware needs to understand that pvp isnt just balanced around a certain class but a player as well. Taking away on use just makes it easy mode for the rest of the not so skilled player.....but which is better to make the more skilled pvp player base angry or the not so skilled learning to use the on use...I go with the latter. What skill has to do with your steam dependency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motav Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Guess we will just have to burst with a specific rotation and smart use of CDs/relics instead of having adrenals. Also they're expensive as all hell. I ain't doing dailies just to buy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) I think the Adrenals change is a logical one if BW is trying to get TTK under control. I like the fact that they are evaluating Buffs before hitting classes with the nerf bat. There will still be burst in game. It just won't be so over the top. I still think Expertise is the real culprit for the fast TTK though. Edited June 7, 2012 by DarthOvertone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourTwent Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) signed, give us back our adrenals(even though they haven't taken them away yet xD) I still think Expertise is the real culprit for the fast TTK though. quoted for the truth. but to be more specific. i think it's the differences in the bonuses we get from them(should be the same amount of bonus for defense, healing and damage boosts) Edited June 7, 2012 by FourTwent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henu Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I have said from the start if BW took off the BOP and the requirement to use bio chem then PVP would be a lot more fair. The amount of changes to Biochem from the start has been amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achyllis Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Change approved. Being two hit with 1100 expertise is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elkirin Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) The OP does not like the change. They are entitled to an opinion. I can not in good faith sign a petition against the changes as I have TTK concerns already ( mainly based around Expertise) and it would be hypocritical to argue against a proposed change that I may in fact have asked for previously. NOT Signed. Edited June 7, 2012 by Elkirin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I really wonder who these 'buy your adrenal' guys are. You must be some of the richest guy in SWTOR because they sure are very expensive, that is if they're sold anywhere on your server still due to a nonexistent economy. I guess you can send out guys to gather materials, send that to a Biochem alt to make the stuff and mail them back every day but in that case it'd be easier to just take Biochem and save the money. And if you say WZ consumables, I know Warlords and even Elite Warlords who don't use WZ consumable anywhere near the frequency you could use Biochem consumables and by definition these are the guys most capable of using WZ consumables since this is a strictly time played issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheronFett Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 IMHO this was a needed change. If for no other reason than any "serious" PvPer was pretty much required to be Biochem to have on-demand consumables. The entire market has suffered because of it. The other side of this coin is, healers are going to be Godmode again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kleve Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Oh but I have been on many of the receiving ends of this....Its called burst for a reason....thats the whole point.....People are missing the point here. You arent supposed to survive burst its called that for a reason....you can only do it every what..3 minutes...and you cant stack relics you can only use 1 then the other 20 seconds later...but not at the same time.... Like I said this should be a stat change not an item mechanic change. If anything I think we can all agree on is that burst is too bursty....tone down the amount that the adrenal and relic provides....for example on the battlemaster power relic..instead of increasing power by 380 tone it down to say 300....make changes like that.. The whole point of this thread is to revert back to on use not the passive or on hit with the new ones they are going to provide......nerf the amount that the relics and adrenals increase the stat. I will go as far as agreeing with you that burst is TOO bursty. I will even concede that perhaps the pendulum, after swinging TOO far towards burst in 1.2 after healing was so OP, it is now swinging BACK to healing POSSIBLY being too strong again. I'm not SURE, but I DO know burst was indeed too bursty. I think there's common ground here. Pre-1.2, whoever brought the most healers won. Post 1.2, whoever brought ANY healers LOST because why put a healer in when you can have more burst dps? 1.2 pvp was too bursty/frag-a-licious. This change is trying to reverse that and we should see feedback from PTS'rs letting us know if it's good/bad/otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I honestly don't see healing overpowered or not before 1.2 or after 1.2. Maybe it's bad if we have no healers on our side, but if all the guys on my team are good I'll take a chance on it unless it's Huttball (can't win if you can't keep ball carrier alive). Defeating the healers is not a necessary condition to win the WZ on all maps. Alderaan and Voidstar can be won rather easily this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midden Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 A no vote for the petion. I love this change, yipeee. It makes more of a level playing field. Those that have done well spamming adrenals and relics will have to change their tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovia Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 If anything this is a change to the right direction, they remove unwanted factors from pvp and excluding hard-to-do-metrics-on factors. Although i may get flamed from this, having less or no active relics and adrenals is a welcome change for me since the change from 27 to 25 keybindings is awesome. If the fix the other balance issues, they could come back and re-add this tools if so they desire and would enhance the gaming experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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