Operative 1.2 PvP Guide

[NooBoBooN]

edit: I will not update this thread anymore. With nerf 1.3 at the horizon I lost the last bit of trust in the devs. In my opinion this thread will help you to improve your skill as an op - but sooner or later you might find that its too complex to play this class competitive - when youre at that point level up a mara, pyrotech or a sin and discover how simple other PvP classes can be.

 

Before I begin Id like to say that in good hands the operative is still one of the most capable classes in SWTOR.

Thats 100% true in the lowlevel warzones starting with lvl 36 (Hidden Strike+ stun from talents) and then again in (full) warhero gear.

 

Actually operatives are pretty awesome with level 10 already and the rotation between level 10 and 20 is extremely simple which makes it fun to play as well:

Stealth>Backstab>Corrosive Dart>Demolition Probe>Shiv>Overload Shot>Autoshots until BS and Shiv are ready again. Throw Grenades, use Cover>Snipe and keep your stimboost up. You wont get the 2,5k heal medal so dont try too hard. Its better to regenerate and then continue to do dmg. I also like to mention that pure healing is NOT (yet) an option, there are too many talents missing. To become a reliable pvp heal the Operative needs at least 22 talent points.

 

Keep in mind that the better you get the more you are focused which means youll have to get even better. The statement below that Operatives should not be focussed sounds funny to me, if someone is constantly killing me I do not like him - I want him dead...

 

 

1. Keybinds

If youre a clicker or if you like 3 button or faceroll chars (no offense) the operative is nothing you will like!

First of all you need to bind the following abilties to hotkeys and get familiar with them.

Remember one thing: "I WILL NOT BACKPEDAL."

 

Most Important Keybinds:

DMG: Hidden Strike (HS), Backstab(BS), Shiv, Demolition Probe(DP), Grenade, Corrosive Dart(CD), Overload Shot, Autoshot and Cover (for DP and Snipe)

- From Skill Tree: Acidblade(AB), Lacerate, Corrosive Grenade(CG), Cull and Weakening Blast(WB)

 

Heal: Kolto Injection(KI)

- Tree: Kolto Probe(KP), Surgical Probe(SP) I rarely use Kolto Infusion, I never use Diagnostic Scan.

- Nanotech is not that as good as the group heal of a sorc, not always reliable, expensive and has an extremely long cooldown... see below

 

Survivabilty: Vanish, Dodge, Shield Probe, Toxin Scan

- Tree: Counter Strike

 

Others: Stealth, Sneak, Stim Boost, Stun, Flashbang, Adrenalin Probe, Sleep Dart, MedPack, Relics, Adrenals

 

 

2. Gameplay

The next step is the proper use of those talents. The following examples are not the exclusive solution against the respective class - but they will sure help you to beat them. This is were your own experience and situational awareness comes into play.

 

Every operative skill tree has its typical strenghts and weaknesses and every skill tree is completely different to play. Which is why I like the operative more than any other class - you have not 2 but 3 completely different choices (+ hybrid speccs). On the other hand this means that some classes will own you in one tree while you easily outlive them in another. The smart usage of your stun, flashbang, vanish+zap, vanish+HS, toxin scan, dodge, shield probe, cover+snipe and of course youre ability to kite other players will determine how good you truly are as an operative. Those tips will help you against GOOD (equipped) players, even more so when you are one of them, dont use your cooldowns for "Noobs"

 

Use your stealth wisely, its not always your job to be the hardhitter, sometimes you can be the player of the game doing nearly no dmg, just because you were hiding in the zone to score in huttball, to plant the bomb or to defend the "boring" door in voidstar, or to do the same capping/ defending points at the coast or at the civil war. Read the game of your teammembers and read the game of your oponents and then decide what to do. I guess thats by far the best advise in this whole thread.

 

Now some more detailed "infight" informations, after all you are a hardhitter:

 

- AShot is more than just a gap filler - its solid dmg up to 30m - use it

- Cover>Demolition Probe>Snipe is a very strong distance burst combo (e.g. if youre rooted or at Huttball)

- use your dmg abilities while you are in cover - you cant be knocked back

- use your Grenade only if there is more than 1 enemy - AShot does nearly the same dmg on 1 single target

- Orbital Strike - guess where the fight will be in 6 sec and call it in (or - zap>OrbStrike>vanish>HS>stun...)

 

- ALWAYS position yourself carefully - dont let them kick you into fire, acid or down the basement

- decurse DoTs and snares from other Imperial Agents, Bounty Hunters and Warriors - use toxin scan(!)

- if BS is ready it has priority over Toxin Scan - dont lose a BS cooldown use toxin scan immediately after

- Wait until everybody is fighting before you join a fight with multiple enemys - your not a tank

 

- before you vanish check for DoTs - use Toxin Scan and (or at least) dodge

- if your stealth is not ready when your out of combat - use your group stealth and then continue to fight

- its always worth to wait until HS is ready again - just use Stim Boost and sneak while you wait for it

 

- your stun(if skilled) increases your movement speed - use it to kite or to close the gap to another player

- sometimes its a great idea to run around the corner and use a Kolto Injection

- Keep in mind that if you dont have the talent surgical steadiness its senseless to heal when you receive dmg

 

- snare/kite Warriors use CD and AShots - decurse their dots and use dodge/stun against their casted attack

"devastate" you have no chance against a well played carnage marauder - thank god there are only few of them

- Assassins will likely kill you, use Flashbang or Vanish+Zap them at a point, use AShot/ OvShot if they use their

shield, use your shield when you see you might have a chance, use dodge when your at 30% health>stun+heal

- sorc stuns, knockbacks, dots and snares are our biggest pain in the a*, use Shield Probe,

Dodge>Vanish>Zap>HS...>BS - youll see some of your biggest hits against them (POSITIONING)

- youll have trouble/ wont be able to kill a good sorc heal solo- but he wont heal anyone else beside him...

 

- use cover often against snipers, bounty hunters and sorcs - they cant knock you

normally they use knockbacks after they get off the ground from your HS so HS>Shiv>cover>DP is a good combo

- you easily survive snipers if you use your shield, dodge, flashbang and stun (POSITIONING!)

- you wont have too much trouble against pyrotechs if you constanly decurse yourself and snare them

- interrupt mercs, wait for knockback>shield>CD>use your stun as interrupt and destroy them (POSITIONING)

- PTs might give you trouble - I never met a really good one besides an above mentioned pyrotech

 

- if youre in a 1on1 and other enemys join in use Tab>flashbang or vanish+zap if its only one additional player

You are able to kill two other players if you have your cds ready - despite some comments below- its not easy and it depends on the oponents classes but using vanish+zap+HS, snare, flashbang and stun wisely youll live (Zap the second target- a good player will not waste his Stunbreaker in this situation), use Flashbang as soon as he starts fighting you again if both are stunned try to heal yourself and save your stun but watch their resolve bars carefully

- before opening on 2 enemys zap the stronger one, or the one with more health, never zap a stealthed player -

the stealth wont break and the player will unleash hell on you as soon as the stun breaks

 

- good mercs and other operatives will decurse your dots and snares if you dont push them hard enough

- in some situations its important to burst another player down and sometimes its better to not drain your energy

every situation is different, it depends on the other classes, the respawn, the objective etc. figure it out

 

3. The Specs

There is a lets call it "best spec" for all of the trees(31 points in the tree), with quite some room for personal preferences. Those preferences should also depend on gear, on (premade) groups and of course on the individual playstyle - objectiveplay vs.the ego player "WOW IM AWESOME look at my dmg/heal statistic".

 

In total there are 3 relatively valid hybrid heal specs. Ill talk about the 25/3/13 later, there is the 18/0/23 for more info read the pro and contra discussion initiated by Diplomaticus on page 2 or 3 of this thread. and there are some Laceration heal speccs (somewhere between 18/18/5 or 23/18/0).

Keep in mind that you will lose some key talents with those hybrid builds, such as:

 

- Surgical Probe, Surgical Steadiness and Medical Therapy in Medic

- (Energy Screen) Jarring Strike, Meticulously kept Blades and Acid Blade in Concealment

- Lingering Toxins, Devouring microbes, escape plan, counterstrike and Weakening Blast in Lethality

 

Concealment: 3/31/3

The last 4 talents can be put in Incisive Action and(!) Surgical Steadiness if you like to offheal infight. The combination of Razor Edge and Slip Away is also very strong but only if you constantly play with a healer or with another max dps class. Other than that you can put the points in Precision Instruments, Inclement conditioning, Scouting or Survival Training - this entirely depends on gear, personal preference, playstyle, group setup and how "hated" you are in wzs on your server.

Now lets talk about burst - BURST use it ONLY when needed. otherwise use an occasional AShot.

Max Burst for standard 1on1 with full health: AB>HS>Shiv>Lac>Lac>BS>DP>Shiv>Lac>(Lac>)OvShot

Forget about typicall PvE advise about saving one TA when your bursting - for what? So you can use it for Stim Boost in the respawn room? The math is easy 2% more dmg versus a 2+k Lacerate to burst someone down. What matters, when it comes to burst, is that you are not in a 15min Bossfight, were those 2% are a lot.

 

Keep in mind that after your HS-stun the things your oponent can and will do might be different everytime. Which means that youll have to throw in a stun, CD, Stunbreaker, snare and so on. If your enemy is a heal or tank use CD after HS to maximize your dps in a fight that will last a bit longer.

 

Remarks:

For infight heals make sure your opponent is either stunned or rooted or at least not in the line of sight otherwise youll waste 1-2 gcd if he interrupts you or if you need 5 sec to cast a KI. Make sure you have AB up for HS and BS - you lose massive dps if you dont (same for CD in longer fights). Stim Boost (revitalizer) will save your *** more than once - keep it always up.

 

 

Lethality: 5/3/31

For the last 2 points you can choose between Endorphine Rush or Incisive Action. Another Idea is to take the points out of Adhesive Corrosives and to put them in one of my favorite talents in the tree Counterstrike which has a 45 sec cooldown and you can use it against EVERY snare and root including, especially, those of Inquisitors. (Toxin Scan CANT decurse anything from a sorc - and it wont cleanse snares always if you have additional DoTs) The best part of Counterstrike - it doesnt need a gcd, this alone is a hughe advantage.

 

This tree has the advantage of lots of snares (kite!) and it does the most operative dmg in a warzone.

Unfortunately the tree has not that much survivabilty, (Revitalizer, Kolto Probe, Pin Down, less Stealth) but it gets better and better with your ability to kite and its a lot of fun to play.

 

But remember, its a completely different game compared to concealment, you cant and you shouldnt play "roguelike" but if you give it (more than just) a try youll like it. You wont see very big numbers with this, but you do more dmg overall and you dont have to worry too much about your energy.

 

I used Counterstrike instead of Escape Plan - now I started using both (6/3/32)

I think the points in Devouring Microbes are not very useful in PvP. If a player is below 30% he either dies quickly or he gets healed above this "magical" number. Therefore the player simply isnt long enough in this "below 30% window" to make this talent a very good one - spent those 3 points in it for PvE, for PvP its just a gapfiller at best.

 

 

Max DMG: (TA ready) CG>CD>WB>Cull>Shiv>BS>(your in range anyways so what the heck)Cull>DP>Shiv>Cull

The burst with CD and CG on your target and 2 TAs (e.g. from Kolto Injection) ready is AWESOME.

You can also start with HS - it gives you an additional TA but make sure to use your sneak- your normal stealth sucks in this tree. Also use WB, (Shiv) Cull, Stim Boost and Adrenalin Probe on CD.

 

Remarks:

You wont be able to use stealth often, its important to know how to kite people and how and when to use cover. It is really a lot of fun to play this, but until you get used to play less like a rogue and more like a hunter (yes this is a WOW reference) you will die very... VERY OFTEN.

 

 

Deep Medicine Hybrid: 25/3/13

In my opinion this is the most interesting Heal Specc. Granted - you will heal 15% ish more if you go for the 31 talent BUT in this specc you can decide anytime if you like to heal more or if you like to help out with some credible dps.

 

Why I consider the 31 talent crap is simple:

it is not only very energy expensive, often useless because other players are not in range, its also on a very long cooldown and its a "stupid" talent - it heals a player with 100% Life while another player in range with 50% Health doesnt receive any Heal. With those game mechanics I rather spend the 6 points elsewhere.

Thats only my opinion - there are some good 31 talent heal guides - read them for additional info.

 

Typicall dmg support: CG>CD>Grenade>BS>DP>Shiv>AShot (your only an "Off" DD in this spec)

Sure you can easily solokill some other players but this will take time, so bottom line, this specc is clearly heal - NOT dmg oriented.

 

Heal: Have always at least 4 KPs up (2 on yourself) and use SP whenever you have more than 1 tactical advantage. Your heal benefit from 1 active TA is awesome and you never know when you have to spamheal someone below 30% life. Make sure you have it always up. Your Big Heal is KI but its very Energy hungry so be careful and combine it with SP, I use Kolto Infusion only if I was interrupted while casting KI.

 

Remarks:

Keep CG and CD on your enemys and keep at least 4 Kolto Probes up (2 on you) for Tactical Advantages.

Use Your TA for Stim Boost whenever ready and besides that for SP only - Carbine Burst in my experience is useless, also in this spec with the extra TA use the above mentioned dmg talents and OrbStrike if its ready. Dont waste the TA and the additional energy on this talent - despite a comment on page 6 or so. When there are more than 1 or 2 enemys in 10m range your either busy healing or snarekiting. Most definetely you shouldnt waste TAs and energy that youre about to need in a sec. And if there is no real danger, use the talents mentioned above youll do more (reliable)dmg with them.

 

 

4. Gear

I always use the 2 piece bonus of the enforcer gear as well as the fieldtech gear. In my opinion an additional OrbStrike is great for voidstar, coast and civil war and 1 sec extra dodge is pretty cool if you vanish or fight maras, juggs...

So Id say those are the better 2 of 5 pretty bad boni choices. The other 3 choices are:

- the 4 piece bonus for 5 (LOL) extra energy

- +15% crit on BS but you have to sacrifice dmg from all other dmg abilities and health because of the loss in

expertise and augmented gear.

- the Nanotech bonus from the medic gear - that might be useful if your playing a lot of PvE but I doubt it

 

 

5. Stats

These are my current stats (without any buffs in the above mentioned concealment spec)

725 bonus dmg

30% crit

1200 expertise

17100 health

77% surge

 

State of the art in my case would be 735 bonus dmg, 31% crit and 75% surge. (Its a hughe wz grind to get there)

Now statwise Im not the expert, but Im really happy with my gear.

I always prefered power over crit - the important talents have critboosters in their individual skilltree anyways.

 

 

6. Some Operative warzone tactics in short

Those tactics work quite well for my team - in the past and at present

 

Huttball:

- use your stealth to hide in the endzone and score

- clear the middle (also the high grounds) - kill all enemy players and secure the recapture of the ball

- carry the ball only over very short distances and pass it - thats a lot quicker and you might survive this

- if your in the (hybrid)heal specc you can also carry the ball - make sure to you have shield, stun, stunbreaker

and dodge ready

- tactical deaths are awesome depending were you are and were the ball is - those fires will help you

 

Voidstar - Offense

- Use your groupstealth to surprise them with an out of stealth teamattack

- stay in stealth and wait until everybody fights to plant the bomb

- sneak alone to the door with no action and wait a little bit - sometimes the "bouncer" gets bored

- when the door is opened stun, root, kite and kill a few enemies before they reach the second door

Do this again at door 3 and 5 if no one of your team was fast enough to plant the bomb already

- tactical deaths are a great tool if you have a good defending team, spread your dots, burst your energy and make sure you have no energy left when you die. then come back and do the same again - use your adrenaline probe wisely

 

Voidstar - Defense

- stay hiden and guard the "lonely" gate - if you end up in an 1on1 keep the door in sight ALWAYS and use your stunbreaker only if theres someone planting the bomb - inform your team as soon as they are moving your way - you might die in no time if theres another stealth class

- kite and make sure that the defending team uses the heal around the corner - better you with 90% life than an enemy player

- if they are through - go as fast as possible to the next door to defend it - have your stunbreaker/ vanish ready

- remember that you can heal - use your relic/ adrenal for healing in the defense - halt them as long as possible

 

Civil War

- stay hidden - capture the base when everyone else is fighting

- you would be surprised how often you catch the "guarding" enemy off guard

- make sure to kite enemy defenders away from the base

- dont let them kite you away when you are defending

- in general you should burst in the defense and use your stealth in the offense (not always, but...)

- if you are one of the last 2 persons at a base you captured - stay - the other player will disapear anyways

 

Coast

- same as Civil war - but completely different...

 

This is a summary of knowledge about how to play the Operative and for most of the PvP situations one can face at this time. There are rumors about servers which have people laughing at us - the hints and tips in this thread (I was just the guy writing it) will help you to make them cry again. Now go out and spread FEAR!

Edited June 17, 2012 by NooBoBooN

[TheOpf]

How is 18/0/23 considered not valid? It is perhaps the best 1v1 survival spec out there outside of straight healing.

 

Kolto probe procs for more culls = win. Wounding shots doesn't improve Cull damage so if you are facing a good cleanse healer or need some real quick bursts than more 18/0/23 is very strong indeed. It's also the best for both healing and damage medals when farming for commendations on a solo queue.

 

I have never run into heat issues with stim boost and adrenalin probe pumping out returns while I sit with constant TA.

[NooBoBooN]

well 18/0/23 is neither water nore wine.

from the heal perspective, youre koltoprobe is just a tactical advantage producer - to get something out of it you miss 2 important talents - in tier 5 medical therapy and in concealment tier 1 survival training. Those are the skills which let the heal tree shine.

 

The dmg youre able to do with cull only is good but by far not enough to solokill a skilled oponent. You miss the 31 talent - which is an amazing dotbooster. If you face a decurse class your cull dmg drops from 3-5k to 1,5k in no time.You lose as soon as the player discovers the dispel button to decurse your dots - which wouldnt happen with lingerine toxins - tier 6.

 

In terms of survivability youll be rooted to the ground - you cant kite anyone because you miss counterstrike.

Those are the talents that make the dot specc competitive in pvp.

 

NO SIR. Maybe your lucky on your server - and nobody is clever enough to counter your specc but believe me this one is really weak compared to the both speccs i posted above.

 

On my server youd die with this specc if you face more than 1 oponent. If you face a sorc, merc, assasin, sniper or another operative with skill you lose the 1on1 already and they are not losing more than 5k life.

[Mrunlimited]

in my experience a laceration medic will truck stick a lethality medic any day of the week..

[MobiusZero]

Man, I don't know how you play as Lethality, but I find it to have much more survivability than Concealment. I typically die 0-3 times per WZ.

 

And 18/0/23 is not a terrible spec, and is in fact pretty popular. But I personally dislike it because of the lack of Imperial Brew (The best DPS talent there is for a lethality op.), lingering toxins, and escape plan. Weakening Blast is also nice, since it not only increases DoT damage, but Cull damage.

 

But in the end, it's a matter of preference. I personally dislike the hybrid build, because I feel it's too spread out, and doesn't allow you to be an amazing healer or an amazing DPSer - it simply allows you to be decent at both.

 

And simply having 7 points in Medicine gives me great off-healing ability.

[Kharnski]

Collateral Strike and Tactical Opportunity are a must for Concealment Ops. Why would someone take 4% endurance boost over them? Your job as an op is to drop an incredible amount of damage in a short amount of time.

 

Drop Energy Screen (not used frequently enough), Revitalizers (Alright but not enough health to justify loss of damage) and Inclement Conditioning for Collateral Strike and Tact op

[TheOpf]

well 18/0/23 is neither water nore wine.

from the heal perspective, youre koltoprobe is just a tactical advantage producer - to get something out of it you miss 2 important talents - in tier 5 medical therapy and in concealment tier 1 survival training. Those are the skills which let the heal tree shine.

 

The dmg youre able to do with cull only is good but by far not enough to solokill a skilled oponent. You miss the 31 talent - which is an amazing dotbooster. If you face a decurse class your cull dmg drops from 3-5k to 1,5k in no time.You lose as soon as the player discovers the dispel button to decurse your dots - which wouldnt happen with lingerine toxins - tier 6.

 

In terms of survivability youll be rooted to the ground - you cant kite anyone because you miss counterstrike.

Those are the talents that make the dot specc competitive in pvp.

 

NO SIR. Maybe your lucky on your server - and nobody is clever enough to counter your specc but believe me this one is really weak compared to the both speccs i posted above.

 

On my server youd die with this specc if you face more than 1 oponent. If you face a sorc, merc, assasin, sniper or another operative with skill you lose the 1on1 already and they are not losing more than 5k life.

 

How is counterstrike important to kiting? It gives you one break every few minutes. I rarely find a need for it. You do know you can crouch and fire away when rooted. Kiting is relatively easy for lethality. Heck, I rarely go into melee except to shiv. I can farm kills at about 10m forcing people to chase me.

 

Only PT's and Mara's can effectively dps 2v1 right now. I am not sure how you die so often with lethality. It's extremely easy even with 31 point to stay mobile and alive. I prefer 23/0/18 for side healing, and helping my healer out. The hybrid is not as powerful as deep lethality, but it's very strong in that it gives you a strong ability to survive on your own. Which if you solo queue is necessary.

 

You can't go toe to toe with anyone, but I have kited and killed many a mara, jugg, and pt. It's one of the best hybrids on the market. I agree with the above post that stated you must not play lethality well to die so often.

 

BTW, any server that jumps operatives that aren't healers first is a bad server. kill order is always healers - mara or pt - everyone else - operatives. They are not that scary.

[TheOpf]

Collateral Strike and Tactical Opportunity are a must for Concealment Ops. Why would someone take 4% endurance boost over them? Your job as an op is to drop an incredible amount of damage in a short amount of time.

 

Drop Energy Screen (not used frequently enough), Revitalizers (Alright but not enough health to justify loss of damage) and Inclement Conditioning for Collateral Strike and Tact op

 

Those builds and his lethality comments makes me think he doesn't pvp much or is trolling haha.

[ktkenshinx]

Good advice about ability use in this guide. Terrible advice about builds though. I am sorry for being so blunt about it, but I would not want prospective PvP Ops using either of the two concealment builds that you have posted.

 

Neither of your builds for Concealment ops use Collateral Strike or Tactical Opportunity. One of your builds, 5/32/4, does not use Surgical Strikes. These are really ridiculous oversights. It's not a matter of playstyle; these abilities are just plain good on damage Ops in PvP. They deal numerically superior damage to Backstab/Waylay (which are terrible talents anyway), and are probably some of the best skills in the entire Op arsenal.

 

You probably have experience in PvP, given most of your advice. But your build is strictly inferior to other builds, at least in respect to the Concealment spec. There is absolutely no reason to take Waylay/Flanking over Collateral Strike. Similarly, you would never, ever want to have Scouting instead of Surgical Strikes or Tactical Opportunity. The damage loss is huge, and you don't gain much in exchange.

 

Again, I am sorry if this comes off as rude. The guide, however, is quite definitively titled. I would not want a new lvl 50 Op coming here and reading your otherwise good advice and then picking up the decidedly lackluster build.

 

For concealment Ops, here are the builds that I advise:

 

My current build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401rc0MZGIM0ddRbGR.1

The only thing I am not sure about here is the 2 ticks of Precision Instruments.

 

"Classic" 3/31/7 Op build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#4010cZGIM0ddRbGRZhR.1

This is the classic build, but I find that unless you are rocking full WH, it's just not as good in objective-based WZs. You just lose a lot of survivability in team fights. Even when I got up to a better bunch of PvP gear, I found myself missing the resilience of my above build.

[Bazzoong]

@OP Neither the specs nor the advice on ability use are worth even a grain of salt, your concealment opener is REALLY bad, you maintain TA as much as you can for the damage boost, you NEVER lac before you have 2x TA, the specs suggested are beyond dismal, sorry if this sounds rude but it is the truth.

The only use of overload shot is on sins when they shroud, else it is bad for your energy management. And I could continue here but why bother.

 

Basically all you say is keybind and use your abilities (really nice advice nobody does that).

Edited June 2, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Cempa]

@OP Neither the specs nor the advice on ability use are worth even a grain of salt, your concealment opener is REALLY bad, you maintain TA as much as you can for the damage boost, you NEVER lac before you have 2x TA, the specs suggested are beyond dismal, sorry if this sounds rude but it is the truth.

The only use of overload shot is on sins when they shroud, else it is bad for your energy management. And I could continue here but why bother.

 

Basically all you say is keybind and use your abilities (really nice advice nobody does that).

 

Continue, at least people will learn how to play!

[NooBoBooN]

Thanks for your Ideas and considerations, thanks for trolling.

 

I edited my post after spending millions of credits into respeccing, doing a lot of duells and some warzones.

I hope you like it better now - most certainly I do.

Edited June 2, 2012 by NooBoBooN

[anwg]

One of the big reason I dislike lethality is that the dots mess up CCs. Edited June 3, 2012 by anwg

[Exsqeeze]

Tactical Opportunity is a waste of 2 points. 1 TA every 20 seconds. Much better to put those 2 somewhere else, 8% Shiv for example gives better DPS than Tactical Opportunity, shiv is your bread and butter.

[NooBoBooN]

Tactical Opportunity is a waste of 2 points. 1 TA every 20 seconds. Much better to put those 2 somewhere else, 8% Shiv for example gives better DPS than Tactical Opportunity, shiv is your bread and butter.

 

No and yes. Shiv is the bread - but lacerate is the butter.

 

Infight youll have an additional Lac every 12 sec - not 20.

In 12 sec you use shiv twice. Which gives you based on a 2k shiv:

2*(8% of 2k ish shiv dmg)= 320 extra dmg in 12 sec

Now I dont know about your Lac dmg but mine is considerably higher than 320.

 

Before 1.2 my Tactical Oportunity was buggy, it worked only with CD on the target (not with AB).

Now the talent works also with AB, so its a must have. I didnt know that, too till last week. (thanks for the info ktkenshinx)

Edited June 4, 2012 by NooBoBooN

[Ryemfoh]

Before 1.2 my Tactical Oportunity was buggy, it worked only with CD on the target (not with AB).

Now the talen works also with AB, so its a must have. I didnt know that, too till last week. (thanks for the info ktkenshinx)

 

Mine always worked with AB on the target. In PVP HS > Shiv > Lac > Lac will almost always proc you the TA that you need to maintain the 2% damage buff, but as Bazz said, you shouldn't hit the 2nd Lacerate unless the first procs in most* situations. That's not to say that you should always open with HS > Shiv > Lac > Lac ...

 

* I sometimes blow my last TA on Lac - it's highly situational whether to keep or to use it - but at the start of a fight it's almost always better to keep it.

[Diplomaticus]

well 18/0/23 is neither water nore wine.

from the heal perspective, youre koltoprobe is just a tactical advantage producer - to get something out of it you miss 2 important talents - in tier 5 medical therapy and in concealment tier 1 survival training. Those are the skills which let the heal tree shine.

 

The dmg youre able to do with cull only is good but by far not enough to solokill a skilled oponent. You miss the 31 talent - which is an amazing dotbooster. If you face a decurse class your cull dmg drops from 3-5k to 1,5k in no time.You lose as soon as the player discovers the dispel button to decurse your dots - which wouldnt happen with lingerine toxins - tier 6.

 

In terms of survivability youll be rooted to the ground - you cant kite anyone because you miss counterstrike.

Those are the talents that make the dot specc competitive in pvp.

 

NO SIR. Maybe your lucky on your server - and nobody is clever enough to counter your specc but believe me this one is really weak compared to the both speccs i posted above.

 

On my server youd die with this specc if you face more than 1 oponent. If you face a sorc, merc, assasin, sniper or another operative with skill you lose the 1on1 already and they are not losing more than 5k life.

 

This simply isn't true. The only really valid point you mention is the cleansing vulnerability thingy. But as long as there is none of this taking place, the spec is solid, and possibly outperforms other dps-oriented specs in group situations.

 

You are still very good at staying alive - not as good as full medicine or medicine/conc builds, but still far better at it than the average class - you have heals and reasonably power defensive cd's and escape tools.

 

Your damage is very powerful, and situationally better than full lethality. Let's hit some hypothetical numbers:

- Your dots are significantly weaker (no Imperial Brew, Devouring Microbes, or Weakening Blast); so let's say there is about a 40% reduction in dps here

- Cull's (your big hitter and the main attraction of Lethality) Internal component is weakened by no Weakening Blast; so let's say there is a 20% (though I'd argue that's being generous) reduction here

- Your baseline (~Concealment-y) abilities hit almost as hard

 

This all looks bad, but we come to the good stuff now:

 

The 18/0/23 Hybrid's damage is completely taken over by Cull. When I watch pure lethality videos, I see Cull is used significantly less than I'm used to. The main dps attraction of this build comes from Cull Chains.

 

It isn't uncommon to use Cull (without a doubt the most dangerous dps ability without a cooldown in the game) 5 times in rapid succession. Here's how that happens:

 

- You enter the fight with 2 TA's (which is more often the case than not with this build)

- You dot someone up

- Cull #1

- Shiv #1

- Cull #2

- Cull #3

(at some point of time after Cull #2 - Medical Engineering may have procced and given you a TA)

- Cull #4

- Shiv #2

- Cull #5

 

Admittedly, unless you want to do a Rushdown + Adrenaline Probe, you will have to interweave Rifle Shots at some points, but every Lethality Operative needs to do that.

 

Saying that the build is only a mediocre healer, ergo it's a waste of time to try healing with this build, is besides the point. Your healing (which is still quite powerful and often saves lives) builds your offenses as well (which is the nasty and neat part of this build). Every time you inject your nuke heal into someone (which I've seen go as high as ~5k) you get a free Cull. Spreading your hots (which are cheap, instant and heal quite well) will give you masses of Culls. This makes throwing heals around with this build quite efficient.

 

In a full duration warzone, my damage ranges from ~275k to ~450k. My healing ranges from 100k (if we stomped them and there wasn't much healing going on) to 250k. While cleansing may put a dent in your damage output, over the course of a battle, it will not have that much of an impact, especially in larger-scale battles.

 

I'd like to dispute your 1v1 argument as well. First and foremost, this build ISN'T a 1v1 build - you become more and more unstoppable when you are surrounded by friends (mainly because Medical Engineering only really kicks in when you have your Probes active on at least 2 or 3 persons).

 

However, you can still hold your own against many possible opponents. To tackle the ones you mentioned: Sorcs and Snipers are the two easiest classes for me to take down, and I don't really know why you though so otherwise. Mercs are harded as they can clease, but they are easy to control and typically don't have enough dps to take you down fast enough, so you can just whittle them down with your basic attacks and still win, or at least run away (if you don't want to die, you won't). Furthermore, frankly, most of them don't cleanse. So those are just fried by you.

 

Assassins are harder, if they're any good. They hurt you hard enough to easily break through your hots and Shroud removes your dots (which is annoying, if you just used Corr Grenade and have to wait for it to go off the cooldown). But they don't have real heals, and the dps difference is very minor if they're pure dps, or yours is better if they're Tankassins. A worthy foe, but not unbeatable at all.

 

There are only three enemies you really have to be wary of:

3. Pyro Powertechs. If they're geared, they hurt you very fast. They'll force you into the defensive, which is a terrible thing. Very hard to beat.

2. Marauders. Only if they're geared and skilled. But they can melt you. Even if you cleanse their dots, they may still kill you too fast.

1. Concealment Operatives. Not at all an op class, but they just counter us fully. They cleanse our dots, which makes their dps output VASTLY superiour.

 

But all in all, I disagree fully (well, almost) with your points. I've used this spec for two or three months now, and I can still own with it. Not saying that it is superiour to other builds, but competitive in PvP? Certainly.

[NooBoBooN]

* I sometimes blow my last TA on Lac - it's highly situational whether to keep or to use it

partially agreed - keep the TA if you expect a longer fight vs more than one oponent, but priority is NOT the 2% extra dmg its Stim Boost. After getting stim boost hit Lac whenever you have it as long as you have enough energy.

 

but at the start of a fight it's almost always better to keep it.

in addition to the above explanation - in a 1on1 its (no offense) never better, because:

 

(AB)>HS>(CD against tanks, heals, Sins or Bounty Hunters>)Shiv>Lac>Lac>(LacProc>)BS>(DP if ready or Shiv- if Lac procced before)>...

is in general the best 1on1 combo to burst someone down as quick as possible regardless the energy level.

 

Of course you cant always use this combo because their might/ will not be enough time to regenerate - yes.

But what if youre about to cap a door/ base against a single oponent?

What about a duell?

Besides the obvious objective - a WZ is just a series of duells against multiple other players.

Think of it this way and please use your lac whenever its ready

 

Energy is everything - you wont use an OrbStrike, a grenade, OvShot or a CD but youll pretty much always use Lac - you dont if the other guy died before you were able to use it or if you die.

 

Keeping the TA makes only sense when you are healing and again not for the 2% extra heal, but because of the talent Medical Consult which gives you additional 6% heal and of course to have Surgical Probe Spam ready when you need it.

 

I really wonder why people keep thinking about those 2% bonus dmg in PvP (I completely understand it for PvE)

 

Ill give it another try to explain it as simple as i possibly can:

In a WZ theres an objective X, the other team has the same objective, which makes killing the members of the other team a sub objective. Those players have around 17k life. They either heal (which leads to more incoming dmg) or do dmg, therefore its urgently necessary to kill them one after another as fast as possible. Why? So they cannot do more dmg to your team.

So far so obvious - but here it comes:

 

17k life!

Are we using lacerate which is good for at least 2k dmg?

Or do we keep lacerate to do 2% more dmg with other abilities to erase those 17k?

 

NO WE DONT! - We use Lac whenever possible - only Stimboost is more important sometimes (see above)

Its like having a shiny axe in the basement while taking the tree down with a kitchen knife because you just sharpened it.

 

PLEASE guys - forget those 2% "extra" dmg - dont sacrifice Lacerate.

Edited June 4, 2012 by NooBoBooN

[NooBoBooN]

Now please dont be offended. If I comment something sarcastic or ironic dont take it personal - its about the spec and not about you after all. (I try to keep the sarcasm down)

First of all thank you for the contribution - its more than welcome. (NOT IRONIC)

I played this as well for a while but after discovering the abilities of a Lethality Op I switched. By now I switch only between the 3 specs I posted in the guide. And thats al I want to say - hey if someone loves to play 0/0/0 - be my guest but dont put this in this thread to promote it without expecting any negative comments.

 

Dont take the duell remarks too seriously - I wanted to explain the special weaknesses of this tree and maybe I exaggerated a little bit... who knows

 

18/0/23 might be ok to play, simply for the fun of it- but it has considerably more weaknesses than any other viable Ops specc I could think of. Its the "not whine nore water specc" as I called it earlier.

 

Now lets see your arguments:

 

This simply isn't true. The only really valid point you mention is the cleansing vulnerability thingy.

Which is also one of the main arguments against this build - Im not saying its horrible - its just not as good as it should be. - You said it yourself - and between the lines there is a big "Skilled oponents cant only counter and kill me because they are better but because this spec is weaker than it could be" shining through.

The dots are the most important dmg ability for lethality and also for your cull-spam spec. Difference is that in your spec they can be cleansed way more easily.

 

You are still very good at staying alive - not as good as full medicine or medicine/conc builds, but still far better at it than the average class

Against which classes do you think you survive longer than a full lethality or even concealment operative?

And what is the average class?

 

Juggernauts? wait no they are really hard to kill. - MAYBE you are kiting really good and use the terrain well for KI and maybe you use the cover routine excellent and maybe you time shield probe and dodge like a pro, maybe you use flashbang to interrupt their devastate - then you might be able to kill them - but wait, you said you have no chance against a mara, well then you will lose against a jugg even quicker - especially with your one (unskilled) snare only - adhesive corrosives is almost a MUST have as lethality specced Operative

 

Marauders? As far as I know only snipers and well played operatives with a real specc can kill them

 

Pyrotechs? No wait they outlive you as you mentioned further down Why? because you dont have AB or WB and the extra crit in your dots, you cant root them and your dots are ticking way too slow to really effect them - even cull isnt strong enough because their armor is pretty thick - i guess there is a talent missing to be more effective against this class

 

matter of fact against none of the melee classes you can do much because your also missing adhesive corrosives, escape plan and counterstrike.

 

Mercs? no chance - they decurse your dots and then out dps you by far+ your melee attacks are way to weak to scratch their armor (you mentioned your using melee attacks thats why I bring this up)

 

sorcs? you cant do anything against their dots which crit only a little bit weaker than yours - they slow you, have a bigger range and while they lightning cast you to nirvana they smile about the funny man with his green thingys surounding him while the life bar goes down constantly - you cant kite them - they will kite you, if youre lucky you might be able to use 1 or 2 culls against them, flashbang and vanish+zap isnt an option because of your dots and theyre stun and heals are as good as yours

a healing sorc is decursing your dots and smiles about your 1,5k cull crits - youll need 3 to crack his shield, by then his shield is ready again but you cant do anything about it because your out of energy

 

sins? you said that its hard for you to kill them - I fully agree and Ill take it one step further a player that has the same skill than any operative dd playing a sin no matter the spec will kill the operative.

 

operatives might look shocked when they realise that after cleansing the dots are gone fully - even a full 31 medic will kill you after a while - your energy is gone twice after you used adrenalin probe and his energy is full - how the heck did he do that?

 

Did I miss a Class? Yeah the sniper - Ill talk about it later. So again - how do you compare the survivabilty and usabilty of your spec with an "average class"? (whatever that might be)

 

Your damage is very powerful, and situationally better than full lethality. Let's hit some hypothetical numbers:

Your baseline (~Concealment-y) abilities hit almost as hard

 

2 things about this statement - yes situationally your dmg is very powerful Im not saying anything about that, but dmg is not everything, taking def cds and abilities (as mentioned above) from you and from other classes into account youll be out of energy before you kill them and youre melee skills are extremly weak besides shiv (which is not a big hitter anyways) - so forget about them - in this spec youll need to save the energy.

 

This all looks bad, but we come to the good stuff now:

Hm?

 

The 18/0/23 Hybrid's damage is completely taken over by Cull.

Yes and I say absolutely nothing against that or that the cull dmg is really awesome - but other players arent NPCs. with this specc you castrate yourself - just because you kill some guys every now and then doesnt make this spec a good spec - its weaker than all the others + you have way less energy available since you need to produce TAs and re-dot more often for a very expensive hardhitter (Cull) which you need to spam to get anything out of it. Every Operative (with a clean spec) needs to keep an eye on the energy levels - youll need two eyes for this alone.

 

And why is that good stuff? Your dots make Cull a hard hitter and your dots are weak - any healing class will take them off - then he doesnt even need to heal much while he brings you down in a 1on1, every merc takes them off anyhow and every operative as well. And how big is your cull dmg than - in its already weakened form without WB? 1,3k maybe - less against sins, juggs and any Bounty Hunter...

 

Spreading your hots (which are cheap, instant and heal quite well) will give you masses of Culls. This makes throwing heals around with this build quite efficient.

yeah but spreading hots is energy youll need - your dots arent that cheap - especially for cull, more hots and dots and dot refreshment and dot refreshment (...)

Throwing Heals around? What Kolto Infusions? After throwing one or two and after an CG>CD>Cull>Cull youre already out of energy...

 

In addition the heal from KP is so low that you shouldnt even mention it - face it - KP is simply your TA producer.

Your CG dot does more dmg than one of your unskilled KP is able to heal - try it in a duell.

 

Throwing heals around...

Its like the sorc that stands in the acid and heals himself throughout the huttball game - amazing numbers in the end but what exactly does it count for?

 

In a full duration warzone, my damage ranges from ~275k to ~450k. My healing ranges from 100k (if we stomped them and there wasn't much healing going on) to 250k. While cleansing may put a dent in your damage output, over the course of a battle, it will not have that much of an impact, especially in larger-scale battles.

 

I hate those statistics - of course you do dmg... but especially in a WZ not as much as you could.

If you like statistics - just ask 2 other operatives if they can help you - 1 Lethality and 1 Heal - in the end compare numbers in a voidstar game. Im sure youd be surprised.

 

In my opinion the only valuable statistic comes from various duells against GOOD other players - if I beat some of them I must be a good player myself and my spec must be quit good as well, if I beat them all - well enough about me... (just joking) do you see my point?

 

I'd like to dispute your 1v1 argument as well. First and foremost, this build ISN'T a 1v1 build - you become more and more unstoppable when you are surrounded by friends (mainly because Medical Engineering only really kicks in when you have your Probes active on at least 2 or 3 persons).

Thats a real funny statement - you dispute my 1v1 argument to say that Im right? Actually your saying that your spec in a 1 vs you and your friends is great? AWESOME - in a 1 vs me and my friends nobody could tell which spec is good because the other guy is gone in 1 gcd...

 

However, you can still hold your own against many possible opponents. To tackle the ones you mentioned: Sorcs and Snipers are the two easiest classes for me to take down, and I don't really know why you though so otherwise. Mercs are harded as they can clease, but they are easy to control and typically don't have enough dps to take you down fast enough, so you can just whittle them down with your basic attacks and still win, or at least run away (if you don't want to die, you won't). Furthermore, frankly, most of them don't cleanse. So those are just fried by you.

And here its getting better and better - your chances against snipers are 60/40 at best.

They are extremely easy to kill if you are Concealment yes but as a Lethality Op or even a Cull Spammer?

 

Sorcs... well I already wrote above how they can kill you. But Im really curious about the mercs you mentioned - even after the nerf they truly are dps monsters as tracer spammer - ok those are easy to counter - but what about pyromercs?

 

But all in all, I disagree fully (well, almost) with your points.

How about now?

Do you almost fully agree with me that 18/0/23 is a specc one can play but by far not as effective as other Ops speccs?

Edited June 4, 2012 by NooBoBooN

[Diplomaticus]

Now please dont be offended. If I comment something sarcastic or ironic dont take it personal - its about the spec and not about you after all. (I try to keep the sarcasm down)

First of all I like to thank you for the contribution - its more than welcome. (NOT IRONIC)

I played this as well for a while but after discovering the abilities of a Lethality Op I switch only between the 3 specs I posted in the guide. And thats al I want to say - hey if someone loves to play 0/0/0 - be my guest but dont put this in this thread to promote it without expecting any negative comments.

 

18/0/23 might be ok to play simply for the fun of it- but it has considerably more weaknesses than any other viable Ops specc I could think about. Its the "not whine nore water specc" as I called it earlier

 

I don't mind at all. In fact I appreciate your responses, especially since they are carried out in a civil manner, which gives this conversation a pleasant atmosphere. However, I still don't agree with you. ^^

 

 

 

 

Which is also one of the main arguments against this build - Im not saying its horrible - its just not as good as it should be. - You said it yourself - and between the lines there is a big "Skilled oponents cant only counter and kill me because they are better but because this spec is weaker than it could be" shining through.

The dots are the most important dmg ability for lethality and also for your cull-spam spec. Difference is that in your spec they can be cleansed way more easily.

 

This is indeed the main weakness of the spec. However, I also mentioned that this has seldom (if not never) proven crippling over the course of a match. The only time this comes up is if you try to take on a cleansing class one on one. (which isn't that common) In group fights, most dps with a cleanse button will be focused too much on killing, relying on their Tanks/Healers to protect them. Many healers that would normally cleanse your stuff won't because they'd rather raise those health bars than spend a global cooldown on that. Even if they do cleanse, that's time they spend not healing.

 

Another thing you seem to forget, is that Sorcs (which happen to be the most common PvP healers on my server) can NOT cleanse Tech effects, healer or dps spec.

 

Against which classes do you think you survive longer than a full lethality or concealment operative?

 

And what is the average class?

Juggernauts? wait no they are really hard to kill. - MAYBE you are kiting really good and use the terrain well for KI and maybe you use the cover routine excellent and maybe you time shield probe and dodge like a pro, maybe you use flashbang to interrupt their devastate - then you might be able to kill them - but wait, you said you have no chance against a mara, well then you will lose against a jugg even quicker - especially with your one (unskilled) snare only - adhesive corrosives is almost a MUST have as lethality specced Operative

 

 

Juggs don't stand a chance, even if they're good. My dps is better, even in melee, and consists for 50% of internal damage. My defensive cooldowns are better (you may have to kite a bit if they pop their Parry/dodge buff - during which you can still use tech effects btw). And I regenerate health/heal.

 

]Marauders? As far as I know only snipers and well played operatives with a real specc can kill them

 

I'll give you this - this is one of my three weaknesses, as I listed. It is one of the best 1v1 classes we're talking about, though.

 

Pyrotechs? No wait they outlive you as you mentioned further down Why? because you dont have AB or WB and the extra crit in your dots, you cant root them and your dots are ticking way too slow to really effect them - even cull isnt strong enough because their armor is pretty thick - i guess there is a talent missing to be more effective against this class

 

One of my weaknesses again, I admitted this. Though it isn't impossible.

 

matter of fact against none of the melee classes you can do much because your also missing adhesive corrosives, escape plan and counterstrike.

 

You seem to think that I'm not capable of melee combat, but I am. Every second I spend outside of melee when fighting melee is a bonus, but stating 18/0/23 can't do anything in melee is a rather rash point to make.

 

Mercs? no chance - they decurse your dots and then out dps you by far+ your melee attacks are way to weak to scratch their armor (you mentioned your using melee attacks thats why I bring this up)

 

Melee attacks/Explosive Probe still hurt, even through that armour. Generally, you can still beat them, and if for some reason you would come to realize this isn't oing to work, you can ALWAYS escape, without a problem.

 

sorcs? you cant do anything against their dots which crit only a little bit weaker than yours - they slow you, have a bigger range and while they lightning cast you to nirvana they smile about the funny man with his green thingys surounding him while the life bar goes down constantly - you cant kite them - they will kite you, if youre lucky you might be able to use 1 or 2 culls against them, flashbang and vanish+zap isnt an option because of your dots and theyre stun and heals are as good as yours

a healing sorc is decursing your dots and smiles about your 1,5k cull crits - youll need 3 to crack his shield, by then his shield is ready again but you cant do anything about it because your out of energy

 

Your interrupt has a shorter cooldown. Your slow is perma. Lightning sorcs (admittedly, rare) can't even kite. Madness Sorcs fare better, but their dots aren't strong enough, and their only instant nukes are Shock (really) and Death Field (powerful, but on a cooldown). Once in range, and their knockback is on cooldown, you blow them to pieces. Easiest class to fight.

 

Healer Sorcs can't cleanse tech effects. You outdps their heals, especially if you force them to kite. Easy fight.

 

sins? you said that its hard for you to kill them - I fully agree and Ill take it one step further a player that has the same skill than any operative dd playing a sin no matter the spec will kill the operative.

 

If you manage the fight well, you can win this and it is a really fair match-up. Both for my spec and other common operative specs.

 

operatives might look shocked when they realise that after cleansing the dots are gone - even a full 31 medic will kill you after a while - your energy is gone twice after you used adrenalin probe and his energy is full - how the heck did he do that?

 

Operatives are indeed impossible. But three weakness in 1v1 matchups for a class that is centered around group play isn'tt too shabby imo.

 

Did I miss a Class? Yeah the sniper - Ill talk about it later. So again - how do you compare the survivabilty and usabilty of your spec with an "average class"? (whatever that might be)

 

Quite good - you have heals, absorbs, evasion+cleanse, clease and Vanish. +Sedatives if you can pull it off.

 

 

2 things about this statement - yes situationally your dmg is very powerful Im not saying anything about that, but taking def cds and abilities (as mentioned above) from other classes into account youll be out of energy before you kill them and youre melee skills are extremly weak besides shiv (which is not a big hitter anyways) - so forget about them - in this spec youll need to save the energy.

 

 

 

 

No - I promised not to be too ironic or sarcastic - so I shall simply say:

Hm?

 

 

Yes and I say absolutely nothing against that or that the cull dmg is really awesome - but other players arent NPCs. with this specc you castrate yourself - just because you kill some guys every now and then doesnt make this spec a good spec - its weaker than all the others + you have way less energy available since you need to produce TAs and re-dot more often for a very expensive hardhitter (Cull) which you need to spam to get anything out of it. Every Operative (with a clean spec) needs to keep an eye on the energy levels - youll need two eyes for this alone.

 

Every class -bar sins and sorcs- need to manage their resources. 18/0/23 has it a bit worse, but their spending attacks hit harder. You seem to acknowledge that. Also, enabling dots isn't a waste of energy. Both the hots and the dots -if they run their full course- deal/heal more damage than an average 1 global cooldown attack.

 

And why is that good stuff? Your dots make Cull a hard hitter and your dots are weak - any healing class will take them off - then he doesnt even need to heal much while he brings you down in a 1on1, every merc takes them off anyhow and every operative as well. And how big is your cull dmg than - in its already weakened form without WB? 1,3k maybe - less against sins, juggs and any Bounty Hunter...

 

I already mentioned that sorcs can't remove my dots. This greatly reduces this problem.

 

yeah but spreading hots is energy youll need - your dots arent that cheap - especially for cull, more hots and dots and dot refreshment and dot refreshment (...)

In addition the heal from KP is so low that you shouldnt even mention it - face it - KP is simply your TA producer.

Your CG dot does more dmg than one of your unskilled KP is able to heal - try it in a duell.

 

KP is indeed primarily a TA producer. But the hot is still okay. 1 stack heals ~2k, and has a 12% increased crit chance. Meaning that it is (over 18 seconds obviously) about as powerful as 150% a resource spending damaging attack. Plus, it generates TA. ^^

 

I hate those statistics - of course you do dmg... but not as much as you could.

Your dots and hots are weaker than they should be to be any good. Its like the sorc that stands in the acid and heals himself throughout the huttball game - amazing numbers in the end that counts for nothing.

Your cull eats energy and your KI is vey hungry as well.

 

I guarantee you - I do way more dmg as full concealment in a WZ and even more as full lethality, but this is dmg that leads to kills in no time and the Heals I throw out are always necessary and intelligent. Thats something the statistic in the end doesnt show.

 

The only times I spam dots is if I'm not in range of my goal. I'm always on the lookout for Cull victims, and almost none of my damage can be considered "fluff". Which is more than can be said about some full lethality players btw...

 

Heals: the same story. Some hot spreading may be fluff, especially when initiating the fight. But on refreshing, you always prioritze damaged allies/those who are getting a beating. Nuke heals are only really cast on an ally that is under fire/between fights to accelerate the recovery process.

 

Thats a real funny statement - you dispute my 1v1 argument to say that Im right? Actually your saying that your spec in a 1 vs you and your friends is great? AWESOME - in a 1 vs me and my friends nobody could tell which spec is great because the other guy is gone in 1 gcd...

 

I didn't say that. I said that it isn't a build that has 1v1 as its main priority. The build becomes stronger when their are targets to hot/heal. You can't tell a build that actually becomes better in group play that it has no place in serious group PvP.

 

 

And here its getting better and better - snipers nowadays use the full lethality tree and they outdps every other class. Which doesnt mean they are able to kill every other class but theyre chances against deep Lethality specced ops are about 50/50. So what do you think you do more dmg than a Full Letal Op? Or maybe your heals are strong enough to win against a good sniper? What exactly are you doing to kill them? I know CD>CG>Cull>Shiv>Cull>Cull from procs at this point your already in a bad energy area...

Id say your chances to win against an equal geared and skilled sniper are 40/60 at best.

They are extremely easy to kill as Concealment yes but as a Lethality Op or even a Cull Spammer???

 

Snipers are easy. Lethality ones especially. You cleanse their stuff, weakening their dots significantly (or if they are Lethal/Engy you actually remove them). You can also cleanse+evade to reset them completely (best done after a Corr grenade). Also, snipers are easy because you just have to LoS+heal them. There are very few tmes in warzones where you cannot do this.

 

Sorcs... well I already wrote above how they can kill you without breaking a sweat. But Im really curious about the mercs you mentionedt - even after the nerf they truly are dps monsters as tracer spammer - ok those are easy to counter but what about pyromercs?

 

See previous points made.

 

 

How about now?

Do you almost fully agree with me that 18/0/23 is a specc one can play but by far not as effective as other Ops speccs?

 

yes. ^^

Edited June 4, 2012 by Diplomaticus

[NooBoBooN]

All right you agree that your specc is less credible than the full lethality.

Mission accomplished.

[Diplomaticus]

Oh, I obviously read that wrong. (though I'll agree it looked kind of silly ^^)

 

However I daresay you realized this, you naughty OP.

[Mrunlimited]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MffMdh0RzZGIMod.1

 

Discuss

[Exsqeeze]

No and yes. Shiv is the bread - but lacerate is the butter.

 

Infight youll have an additional Lac every 12 sec - not 20.

In 12 sec you use shiv twice. Which gives you based on a 2k shiv:

2*(8% of 2k ish shiv dmg)= 320 extra dmg in 12 sec

Now I dont know about your Lac dmg but mine is considerably higher than 320.

 

Before 1.2 my Tactical Oportunity was buggy, it worked only with CD on the target (not with AB).

Now the talent works also with AB, so its a must have. I didnt know that, too till last week. (thanks for the info ktkenshinx)

 

Where are you getting 12 from? Lacerate has a 50% chance to apply collateral, this effect can not occur more than once every 10 seconds, 10*2 = 20 seconds which isn't a multiple of 3 (GCD) so its slightly longer (24 seconds) roughly how often your TA will proc from this skill, this talent is only good for getting in an extra lacerate in your opener, something I do not need with my current rotation to kill people. 2 Points for an extra TA every 24 seconds? I find I do just as well without the 2 points in this tree, I don't actually put them in Shiv I put them in 4% less damage, debatable about whether it is useful.

[NooBoBooN]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MffMdh0RzZGIMod.1

Discuss

There are 2 changes Id make - 1 is a personal preference and 2 is a must:

1: put the points from chem resistant inlays in precision instruments

2: ignore flanking and put the point into energy screen

 

I tried something similar to this, but I prefer the Lethality tree combined with the medic tree because of:

- combat stims mainly

- increased movement speed of slip away and the 30 sec cooldown of the talent

- razor edge is awesome since you need shiv anyway to do some dmg

I knowt thats off topic but concealment without AB and the armor debuff on it is something I really dont like.