Hardcore people, I don't care what you say...

[pogmahone]

enraged timers/tight tuning bosses/not letting groups rerun ops and just be loot locked that is going on.

 

How does this make SWTOR hardcore?

[TheLordMagnus]

You could also try talking to other guilds on your server that are having a hard time fill out their raid groups and run co-op raids.

 

this^^^^^^

talk to people im a sub for my gulids op teams i dont get a run every week as for gear hm bt drops ten gear so easy to get a run on that if not your server is dead either wait for transfers or roal onto another server

but think the op problem is talking to people on his server and learning the times people run this stuff

i can stand in fleet with 100+ people and still not get a group cos thos 100 people are there for pvp ect its timimg and getting to no your server

[pogmahone]

Cause I'm so upset, in a depression, annoyed that the devs have done NOTHING to correct the inconsistencies of server pops.So many guild issues ALL because of the game...

 

If you are that upset about it maybe you should take 5 and go relax with a beer or something. And like another poster said you should talk to other guilds or just players in general and see if they want to run a OPS.

[CrunkShizzle]

If you are that upset about it maybe you should take 5 and go relax with a beer or something. And like another poster said you should talk to other guilds or just players in general and see if they want to run a OPS.

 

relax with a beer?

 

this the swtor general discussion forums.i dont think your average poster here is even old enough to legally drink

[Keta]

The problem is, I DO CARE, and watching my server and guild slowly die out makes me so freaking sick to my stomach that I ever even spent money on this game.

 

Reality check time Drago. This is a game and nothing more. It has nothing to do with your self worth, your value to society, your relationship with friends or anything else. It's a game. As such it is not worth getting upset or sick to your stomach about. You spent money on it and when it no longer provides you with entertainment and amusement move on. Your mind will thank you.

[Mallorik]

...The game is NOT casual or EVEN semi-casual friendly. It was at least semi-casual friendly at launch, but since 1.2 it's only geared towards the hardcore, get over it, that's why so many people have quit. If you want the game to survive, you need to get over this whole hardcore enraged timers/tight tuning bosses/not letting groups rerun ops and just be loot locked that is going on. All these people that have left were the casual and semi-casual, and now you're realizing that the hardcore is almost the only ones left. Our server at least is dead in the water, and transfers are going to fix nothing, there needs to be forced mergers.

 

I agree and disagree, blame the devs.

 

They said they made this game to be casual friendly. yet the leave things out at launch like the lfg tool and they refuse to recognize the need for a crosss server lfg tool.

 

They obviously wanted some "hardcore" people to enjoy the game because they made nightmare mode ops, yet left out something as simple as a combat log at launch, and still refuse to add an in game combat log.

 

There are many more examples of this but i think these do a good job of pointing out the problem.

 

Im probably considered more hardcore than casual and my main source of entertainment is raiding, but i see the need for attracting and keeping the casual players, Its just too bad most people arent willing to give up anything to make the game better, even if they arent actualy giving anything up but instead just trying to deny something the other group would like.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Mallorik

[Snakeyees]

This game is what you make it. if you want this game to be casual then it will be causal. if you want to be a hard core raider and have everything right now, then that's what it will be to you. it takes time to master the raids, I took my fresh 50 smuggler into EV and KP normal mode ( granted i love hardcore raiding) my smuggler went from all orange armor with 51 mods to Full T2 in one night and now has 4 rakata items from doing HM's. OP's.

 

But you know what my secret is? I joined a raiding guild a Guild that does it all together. you need to find that guild. if you cant on your server, then try a different server is it going to take work? Yes it will but if you want something bad enough you need to work for it. cant expect it all to be handed to you.

[Januaria]

...The game is NOT casual or EVEN semi-casual friendly. ...there needs to be forced mergers.

 

While I'm not a HUGE fan of this game (I like it, but do not love it), I think you're being a bit harsh. I am at best a very mediocre player and even I can get through most of the plain vanilla content without undue stress.

 

Take a deep breath, step away from the game, sip some wine, think pleasant thoughts, and try to reach your happy place. No, not THAT happy place, I'm referring to your inner serenity.

 

LOL. It's all good.

 

[Ganrax]

The problem is, I DO CARE, and watching my server and guild slowly die out makes me so freaking sick to my stomach that I ever even spent money on this game. And all you people are talking about leveling, I'm talking ops, and all the new stuff, It's way to hard for even the semi-casuals, no people that will even attempt pugging it cause servers are dead. Enrage timers ruin any chance of running without their optimal grouping and are way overtuned. Can't even rerun instances for guilds not divisible by 8. All you would have to do is loot lock bosses, and let us help out undergeared people. Had 12 people prepped for EC in our guild, could only do 8 cause couldn't get enough people for 16, people rage not being in that group of 8, cause of course we can't redo instances to help out. SO MANY THINGS!!!!!! I DO CARE!!!!!

 

You're confusing play style with player skill. Not all casual players are bad at the game just like not all hardcore players are good at the game. You see more hardcore players being the good ones because in general they put more time into learning their characters and fight mechanics which is a big part of "player skill" in MMO's but that doesn't mean casual players aren't just as capable of doing the same exact thing.

 

You're complaining because they are making the operations too hard for bad players, not because they are making them geared towards hardcore players. If they were gearing them towards hardcore players they would be making it so you couldn't clear the place in a few hours.

 

It's simple, if you aren't clearing the new content you either don't understand the concept of raid progression and are going right into a Tier 2 raid without being geared enough from the Tier 1 raids, or you(or your raid members) are simply not good enough to clear it. That has nothing to do with casual or hardcore play styles.

 

You can clear raids in just a few hours, this game is about as casual as it gets.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Ganrax

[Grizm]

So the actual issue the OP is hiding among the "casual vs. hardcore" nonsense is that he is in a guild that has members that are leaving or going inactive on a server that seems to be dwindling. It's frustrating. Understood.

 

I think the main problem right now is that there are too many guilds. Too many people started with the mentality that they should be running their own guild instead of joining one created by someone else. There just aren't enough active players around to fill all these little guilds.

 

I'm hoping that as time goes on, the active players in the small guilds will slowly start to consolidate into a few bigger guilds.

 

People need to accept that just because they can form a new guild doesn't mean they should. Try joining one of the ones that already exists before forming a new one and trying to recruit from the limited player pool.

[Xatasha]

I think the OP doesn't want a casual game but a lazy give me feast where you do hardy anything and end up in god mode. There are a lot of lazy players pretending to be casual out there these days

[Guajolote]

These "hardcore" players suck anyway. They always need some sort of advantage or excuse to not actually play the content the way it's supposed to be played. They want macros, they want premades vs PUGs, they want to be overgeared for content, they want add-ons to make the game easy to play, then afterwards they want to wave their e-peens around.

 

Yes it's a joke, and yes the devs cater to them. Because the devs are stupid and MMOs have the absolute worst communities of any genre I've ever been a part of.

 

Most of this is the usual argument about addons and macros, and I understand people have differences of opinion. But they want to overgear content? Hardcores are the ones that clear the content first in the gear the devs tuned the content for. Then later the content gets nerfed for the casuals. Raids actually have achievements for clearing them in gear with a certain low item level.

 

So far as the addons/macro argument goes, you know that raids are also tuned with those features accounted for as well, right? It's not as if DBM, Omen, Recount, mouseover macros, etc are a big secret to the devs.

[GalacticKegger]

Most of this is the usual argument about addons and macros, and I understand people have differences of opinion. But they want to overgear content? Hardcores are the ones that clear the content first in the gear the devs tuned the content for. Then later the content gets nerfed for the casuals. Raids actually have achievements for clearing them in gear with a certain low item level.

 

So far as the addons/macro argument goes, you know that raids are also tuned with those features accounted for as well, right? It's not as if DBM, Omen, Recount, mouseover macros, etc are a big secret to the devs.

Personally I have no issues with addons or macros as long as the game's combat mechanics aren't designed around them. If the game's combat mechanics have to be designed around them, then I find them unnecessary. Addons especially. I want to play a Bioware game, not a Curse game. Edited May 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[CharleyDanger]

SWTOR is my first MMO so I cant really speak on the subject. I can say that lvling was really really easy. It was disappointing to be honest. My first HM FP was D7 and it was hard lol. My group was not bad, but we were not great. Our gear was so so, and we it took almost 3 hours. I have done EV and KP story mode and it was not easy, but not insanely difficult. The hardest part was figuring out the fights, same with D7. On the 2nd run KP, EV, and KP it was much easier.

 

What is considered a hardcore MMO? And is there a more current one than the super old school ones?

[V-Serp]

Most of this is the usual argument about addons and macros, and I understand people have differences of opinion. But they want to overgear content? Hardcores are the ones that clear the content first in the gear the devs tuned the content for. Then later the content gets nerfed for the casuals. Raids actually have achievements for clearing them in gear with a certain low item level.

 

So far as the addons/macro argument goes, you know that raids are also tuned with those features accounted for as well, right? It's not as if DBM, Omen, Recount, mouseover macros, etc are a big secret to the devs.

 

It's tuned for the gear that these people already have, and as they get better gear from it the better their performance is on it. And that's when they start bragging.

 

These games are really simple. The concepts shouldn't be giving anyone any trouble. So the real difference is pretty much just gear and whether you're using voice comm or not to coordinate correctly. But this coordination is extremely forgiving compared to other genres. The knowledge portion is also very simple in my eyes and I don't understand why people struggle with it.

 

Since the concepts are simple, and gear is the difference, it's pretty much just time invested. "Hardcore" in this genre is simply people that played more and then talked more than everyone else. And the fact that people still insist on macros and add-ons to make it even easier just makes it more pathetic.

 

In other genres even the best players in the world will screw up simple things occasionally, due to pressure or just because 100% accuracy is impossible for human beings. MMO players however want to take that completely out of the equation and just ignore that element.

 

I don't want to make this an issue on add-ons or macros however. I don't think MMOs are a competitive or serious game, that's why nobody runs big money tournaments for them like with other games. But I'm not going to just ignore the realities of these games and give credit to people who really aren't any good at anything. Bragging about being "hardcore" in an MMO is probably the silliest thing you can do. Yet people do it. Whatever, you can crow as much as you want, and I can laugh at it as much as I want too.

[Erasimus]

This is by far the easiest MMO, in terms of the difficulty of the quests and OPs, that I've played in the last 10 years. I'm mostly fine with that since I play much more casually now than I have in the past.

 

It does have issues, but I would be more inclined to say that the game is not necessarily "player" friendly at the moment. But most of that depends on whether or not you want to do group things or are mostly solo and the population of the server you are on.

 

You can do simple macros now in a variety of ways, the game just doesn't support them directly. They aren't really necessary, but would be nice. I have macros set up on my keypad to do a few things.

 

The combat system is awkward and can be a bit glitchy, but it is really simple. I have a lot more keybinds on most of my WoW characters than I find I need here.

 

Addons are a quality of life thing for me. I like customizing my display, including cooldowns, buffs, and debuffs, much more than I can do with the games UI.

 

If they were trying to make the game for "hard-cores" they failed miserably because most of the hard-core players I know left quite a while ago.

 

Btw, I don't agree with the poster above me, there are really "hard-core" MMO types. Guilds like Vodka, Blood-Legion, etc in WoW. That compete against each other to see how fast they can clear content. One reason you don't see this type of competition on E-Sports, in my opinion, is that it would take too long and it isn't as fast paced as the FPS type games. But games like Star-Craft actually fill stadiums in Korea.

 

Another thing I found interesting in WoW was that the majority of the Top guilds are all on PvP servers. Only 3 of the Top 25 Realms on Wowprogress are PvE realms. Kind of makes sense. People who prefer PvP seem to be much more competitve.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Erasimus

[lokivoid]

Really hoping Secret World doesn't turn out like this game did.

Wait you expect a funcom title to not suck?

Every funcom title has been a flaming pile of @^$%, you cant honestly expect secret world to be any different.

[Guajolote]

It's tuned for the gear that these people already have, and as they get better gear from it the better their performance is on it. And that's when they start bragging.

 

These games are really simple. The concepts shouldn't be giving anyone any trouble. So the real difference is pretty much just gear and whether you're using voice comm or not to coordinate correctly. But this coordination is extremely forgiving compared to other genres. The knowledge portion is also very simple in my eyes and I don't understand why people struggle with it.

 

Heroic raids are no where near as simple as you make it out to be for hardcore raiders who don't have videos to watch to choreograph fights. It's a huge amount of trial and error, wipe after wipe, reading combat logs, etc to get that first boss kill. The gear they start new content with is just the best gear possible from the last raid. Then they actually need the better gear they get from drops to help down later bosses in the raid; that's where the progression part of progression raiding comes from. You cannot kill the final boss in a new raid in just the gear you earned from the previous raid, hence their very strict loot distribution rules in order to benefit the entire guild's raid progression.

 

It just feels to me like you're downplaying the hard work these pve guilds put into hardcore progression raiding. It reminds me of all the people that say WoW got too easy, yet they had zero heroic raid achievements to their name. The difficult content is there if you have the time to commit to it.

 

Whether it's worth that time or not is a different argument entirely, and one totally up to each individual.

[sambeta]

The problem is, I DO CARE, and watching my server and guild slowly die out makes me so freaking sick to my stomach that I ever even spent money on this game. And all you people are talking about leveling, I'm talking ops, and all the new stuff, It's way to hard for even the semi-casuals, no people that will even attempt pugging it cause servers are dead. Enrage timers ruin any chance of running without their optimal grouping and are way overtuned. Can't even rerun instances for guilds not divisible by 8. All you would have to do is loot lock bosses, and let us help out undergeared people. Had 12 people prepped for EC in our guild, could only do 8 cause couldn't get enough people for 16, people rage not being in that group of 8, cause of course we can't redo instances to help out. SO MANY THINGS!!!!!! I DO CARE!!!!!

 

Really? You find the ops/raids hard? Then you've got a poor team that doesn't work well together. The game is very easy if you can work as part of a team in raids etc. Sounds more like you've got the issue.

[Viscerus]

Wait you expect a funcom title to not suck?

Every funcom title has been a flaming pile of @^$%, you cant honestly expect secret world to be any different.

 

^^^^

 

Every game Funcom has ever made has been a flaming train wreck.

[Kaphik]

What is considered a hardcore MMO? And is there a more current one than the super old school ones?

 

MMOs aren't really considered hardcore, it's the players. It comes from the old style of having to spend lots and lots of time grinding rep, currencies, or spending countless hours raiding to progress to better and better gear and items. The hardcore people are the ones who play for hours at a time every single day and want to get everything as quickly as they possibly can.

 

The problem with MMOs in the past few years is that balance between those who can and do spend a lot of time playing and those who only spend a few hours each week. The people who play less, and that is generally the majority of subscribers, feel they should be entitled to get everything that those who spend more time playing the game do. Eventually in many games those "oppressed" masses made enough hue and cry that the developers began changing their games to make gear more accessible to casual players. Let's make no mistake about it, the controversy was never about seeing content as people claim, it was about someone having something shinier than someone else. This accessibility bothered the hardcores, who felt they were superior than the casual players. The irony is that most of what the hardcore achieved only was due to spending more time than other people. The old WoW honor grind is a prime example of that.

 

SWTOR is doing a pretty good job of balancing between hardcore and casual, for a brand new game only a few months old now. The problem is that many hardcore players burn through content so quickly, they always need to have something new to do and that's nearly impossible in a large MMO. They need to get a bit more self-awareness and learn to pace themselves. Yes, there isn't a whole lot of endgame content right now compared to other games, but people need to have patience and strike a balance within themselves between the time they spend in a single game. That's because of the changes to many MMOs where long tedious grinds have been eliminated.

[MasterPetricco]

The game does a lot of casual things, in a very none casual kind of way, which to me is a bit idiotic. For example the entire legacy system seems to be geared towards the casuals but only the very rich "hardcore" GTN players can even afford half of the stuff.

 

The same can be said for the mod system, to make any use out of it you need to be able to freely spend 500k+ at the drop of a hat, yet Bioware already announced that most players don't even have 1mill, again a system that casuals would like but only hardcore can access. Your definition of hardcore/casual might vary, but as I see it, Casuals are those who can't/wont invest great amounts of time and just enjoy playing with the games features, while Hardcore players are those that invest 15+ hours a week into the game, be it raiding, pvping, roleplaying or questing, it doesn't matter what your goal is but more your dedication to that role.

 

Baring RPing, the other three areas will allow you to freely access these features because you'll be rolling in the credits, while a lot of the casual players don't even have their level 50 speeder skill until a week or two after they hit 50. Bioware really need to reassess who the target market is for these features and then decide the best way for them to be accessed.

Edited May 13, 2012 by MasterPetricco

[Asavar]

People are quitting because they keep breaking **** that was working fine due to crybabies crying nerf left and right, the game is perfectly fine in difficulty.

[ConradLionhart]

400k casual players or 1.3m hardcore players? I think Bioware will make the right choice in who to cater to.

 

The casual players have bailed, while us hardcore players are still here supporting the game, in spite of the problems.

[Guajolote]

Eventually in many games those "oppressed" masses made enough hue and cry that the developers began changing their games to make gear more accessible to casual players. Let's make no mistake about it, the controversy was never about seeing content as people claim, it was about someone having something shinier than someone else. This accessibility bothered the hardcores, who felt they were superior than the casual players. The irony is that most of what the hardcore achieved only was due to spending more time than other people.

 

This is so contrary to my actual experience. For hardcores, gear is simply a means to an end, in that it helps them get that much closer to that world/server first kill. It was the casuals that did it for the gear, hence all the ninjaing found in pugs.

 

Hardcores are rarely competing against their own server, they have bigger stakes in mind. Even after pugs could get raid quality epics from five mans, you never saw those people or their guilds pop to the top of the raid progress sites. Those drops actually were implemented just to give people access to content.