War Hero Gear vs Campaign Gear

[veyl]

Bioware just needs to make it so that if you're in one of their 8 man + Operations: X amount of Expertise = Y amount of Main stat + Z amount of Endurance. That way pvp'ers can still perform better than average in an operation yet not take the pride of the Min Max PVE only crowd.

 

They can then do the reverse if a PVE superstar ques up for a WZ (Or flags for open world pvp) and he won't get wrecked into oblivion. Y amount of Main Stat + Z amount of Endurance = X amount of Expertise while in a WZ or Flagged.

 

I think gearing up would arguably take the same amount of time if the above were true.

Recruit gear = Blue gear at level 50 // or columni. You could run karaggas and EV on normal 8 man and gear your character up in one night. ( same as buying it ,with a little more effort)

BM gear = Rakata gear. Takes longer to achieve the full set just like it banks on a little RNG love inside of raiding.

War hero = Campaign. The longest of the gear grinds.

[Doomsdaycomes]

But you don't get locked out of PvP. And that's where the problem is. A PvP'er who plays all the time will have all the gear. A PvE'er has to wait for a reset. There either needs to be a cap or diminishing returns put on PvP because the cap right now is however long you can keep playing before you get bored. PvE'ers have a set number of black hole comms they can get a week and a set number of bosses they can down per week.

 

Oh! Thank you for pointing this out. It's actually in my notes, i just forgot to include it. Though the variety of content should keep just about anyone busy for the time they could player per day, with bosses no longer dropping gear, lock outs would be a moot issue, and thus, be dropped.

 

I am currently investigating BH and Campaign comms, and will update when/how I could fit them in.

[ekwalizer]

Campaign gear is worse than Recruit gear in PvP. You can buy a full set of recruit gear for <400k credits. It takes weeks of progression and farming to get Campaign gear. A full WH set is better than a full Rakata set in PvE. And you cannot buy Rakata. Expertise still has more value in PvP than any other stat a PvE set can bring. Yet it is currently budgeted at a rate of 30 expertise = 4 surge. How is this correct? 30 expertise is actually a measurable difference in PvP. 4 Surge Rating you'll never even really notice in PvE.

 

Sure, and Recruit is worse than Tionese/Dailies in PvE. See there, I'm comparing tier 1 to tier 1, not tier 1 to tier 4. What is your point?

 

It also takes weeks of farming and progression to get War Hero. It doesn't happen overnight, and there is no lucky roll to get it.

 

You can't "buy" war hero gear either. I play both sides of the house. I'm fine with each. I'm just pointing out that given the same number of minutes per week dedicated to one form of progression of the other, PvPers log more hours hands down. It isn't PvPs fault that PvE gets locked out.

 

Exactly, so how WH "better" than Campaign?

 

Perhaps when I can buy with credits the equivenent to Columni this thread might get some legs.

Edited May 2, 2012 by ekwalizer

[Semitote]

It also takes weeks of farming and progression to get War Hero. It doesn't happen overnight, and there is no lucky roll to get it.

 

You can't "buy" war hero gear either. I play both sides of the house. I'm fine with each. I'm just pointing out that given the same number of minutes per week dedicated to one form of progression of the other, PvPers log more hours hands down. It isn't PvPs fault that PvE gets locked out.

 

Exactly, so how WH "better" than Campaign?

 

Perhaps when I can buy with credits the equivenent to Columni this thread might get some legs.

 

It took me 25 hours to get my main-hand PvP weapon over the course of 3 days. And that's before the buff to commendations. It's extremely easy to get gear if you have the time for it in PvP. In PvE, it doesn't matter how long you have except during progression (first kills of bosses) as you'll get locked out. The reason PvP'ers put more hours in is because they can. PvE'ers log in 2-3 nights a week and clear everything they can possibly clear and they have no other way to get upgrades once it is all down. Because of this, I do not think the trade-off between a PvP enhancement and a PvE enhancement should be 30 expertise for 4 surge. It should be 30 for 30. Stack 26 extra surge on PvE gear - it won't change PvP gear. And PvE gear will still be useless in PvP. It just doesn't seem right that a PvP'er can switch to PvE seamlessly, but to go the other way around (PvE to PvP) is a grind.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Semitote

[DarthKhaos]

You obviously didn't read the part where PvE bosses no longer drop whole pieces of gear. There is precedent in other MMO's in this.

 

Your last line is not a valid arguement, it's an insult. This is the point in a conversation where we begin to call each other idiots, lazy, chickens, or carebears. I refuse to do so, and will no longer reply to you. Good day sir.

No it is not. You want to experience the content? You can no problem. you want to have fun? You can minimum work for Battle Master gear. HOWEVER if you want to be the top dog you gotta want it. You gotta work for it. You got to put in the effort. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

 

It took me 25 hours to get my main-hand PvP weapon over the course of 3 days. And that's before the buff to commendations. It's extremely easy to get gear if you have the time for it in PvP. In PvE, it doesn't matter how long you have except during progression (first kills of bosses) as you'll get locked out. The reason PvP'ers put more hours in is because they can. PvE'ers log in 2-3 nights a week and clear everything they can possibly clear and they have no other way to get upgrades once it is all down. Because of this, I do not think the trade-off between a PvP enhancement and a PvE enhancement should be 30 expertise for 4 surge. It should be 30 for 30. Stack 26 extra surge on PvE gear - it won't change PvP gear. And PvE gear will still be useless in PvP. It just doesn't seem right that a PvP'er can switch to PvE seamlessly, but to go the other way around (PvE to PvP) is a grind.

So you're also saying you spent less play time and got your gear in PvE. Interesting.

Edited May 2, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[wessik]

And sadly, this is what comes from a divide. Perhaps I am -out dated- in thinking that End-game content means "all" endgame content. What I am essentially asking is to get -endgame gear- for doing -endgame content.- Whether it's pvp or pve, everything I do should advance my character towards the end goal of being -the best gear.-

 

Because to me, pvp-only progression is absolutely silly. You don't even have to win to be rewarded. <.< Love to tell a boss "Hey, can't kill you, but can I atleast have -half- of your loot for trying?"

 

Edit: Please don't block me from my goal of end-game gear as long as it doesn't block you from only pvping.

 

i used to play swg for 5 years, i know what you are saying... i'm not against that at all... but this is what MMO's are now... pvp gear vs pve gear... simply have to live with it or unsub...

 

you aren't getting blocked from anything, you can still progress and get WH gear wearing strictly your pve gear...

 

either get used to getting stomped, you will still earn comms/valor or

find an exceptional group of friends who will carry you to victory and gear even while you stubbornly handicap them by not getting any pvp gear...

 

unless you are the best pvper in the world, or part of great group, you will eventually lose... the majority of pvper's lose quite often... 1.2 has shown that if you aren't rewarded adequately, people will just quit...

 

as far as your "silly" comment, let me give you a PVE equivalent:

 

what if bioware made it so that you could only enter nightmare mode pve flashpoints as a group of 4 at most, and then filled the rest of the group with pugs... you couldn't pre made your entire 8 man team... you just have to hope those 4 random pugs know how to play their class...

 

then change the script of the encounter EVERY TIME you tried entering it... oh sure there's still the same boss is there, but say he changes damage types, he changes burn/enrage timers, the numbers of mobs changes or their difficulty changes each time...

 

there would be no walkthroughs or youtube videos that could help you finish it cuz it was different every time...

 

and to top it all off, you didn't get any xp or money or loot drops unless you actually completed it...

 

would pve'ers like that? does it still sound silly to you?

[Semitote]

No it is not. You want to experience the content? You can no problem. you want to have fun? You can minimum work for Battle Master gear. HOWEVER if you want to be the top dog you gotta want it. You gotta work for it. You got to put in the effort. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

 

 

So you're also saying you spent less play time and got your gear in PvE. Interesting.

 

I'm a tank, I get gear first. It's how most guilds go. So my PvE set is solid, but I have two pieces of War Hero as well. Had I not started playing in my current guild, I could feasibly have almost full War Hero had I kept up the same schedule I did in the first 3 days. My point is, those who want gear can get it just as quick if not quicker in PvP than in PvE. There should be a better stat budget on the PvP mods and enhancements so hardcore PvE'ers don't lose their position in PvE guilds to full War Hero players who ground out PvP and didn't touch a single PvE Ops group. That's what I think we're trying to avoid in this argument.

[Zellata]

I like -both- paths, but to grind them both when there are solutions besides dividing us is silly. Currently I do Grind pve gear and pvp gear, but that doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion or advocate for a change. I want to do both, I don't want to tell my friends "Can't pvp, only pve geared" or vice versa because I can't commit twice the time as others can. (Not saying others don't, but I -do- have a job.)

 

Gear is basically a function of time spent in both paths. If you want to have twice as much gear as I have, you should spend twice as much time getting it - that's just fair, right? It works the same way whether you want 4 WH pieces over my 2 WH pieces or 2 WH pieces + 2 PvE pieces over my 2 WH pieces. In order to get more gear you have to do more stuff in game and doing more stuff in game requires spending more time online.

It's just like real life - if you can only afford the best tools for one job, that set will be mediocre at best for a different job. If you want the best tools for two jobs, you need to spend more money on two top-of-the-line sets and spend more time getting that cash to begin with.

[Derian]

*screams* STOP THINKING PVE EQUIPMENT IS VIABLE IN PVP IT ISNT THAT STAT DIFFERENCE DOES NOT MAKE UP FOR 22% DAMAGE INCREASE 20% DAMAGE REDUCTIO)N AND 13% HEALING BOOST RAGE CAPS.

 

Sorry. ;D

 

Think of it this way. When you have that much more str and power, are you gaining a 23%!! percent boost in primary hand damage? No? Ok then it's useless.

 

Stop it.

[Doomsdaycomes]

No it is not. You want to experience the content? You can no problem. you want to have fun? You can minimum work for Battle Master gear. HOWEVER if you want to be the top dog you gotta want it. You gotta work for it. You got to put in the effort. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

 

Atleast this comment wasn't an insult.

 

What makes you "top" dog is skill, in both pve and pvp. If you are "owning" in pvp or pve because of gear, you're not "top dog."

 

That being said, pve or pvp, you have to -work- for the gear either way. So how is wanting my gear to be viable in either direction not "working for it." You assume I wouldn't pvp for my gear, and unless I'm finding I can not progress because someone else with greater gear is blocking me constantly (and possibly, yes greater skill) I would probably pvp 60% of my gear.

 

<.< Not to mention, when did a game become about "Working?" We're not proffesional athletes or something.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[yukirshiro]

PVE in this game is easy enough already. You don't need to buff PVE gear more to make it even easier.

[Dekai]

*screams* STOP THINKING PVE EQUIPMENT IS VIABLE IN PVP IT ISNT THAT STAT DIFFERENCE DOES NOT MAKE UP FOR 22% DAMAGE INCREASE 20% DAMAGE REDUCTIO)N AND 13% HEALING BOOST RAGE CAPS.

 

Sorry. ;D

 

Think of it this way. When you have that much more str and power, are you gaining a 23%!! percent boost in primary hand damage? No? Ok then it's useless.

 

Stop it.

 

You're gaining, after the enemies damage reduction, by your numbers you posted, 2% damage. I think Campaign gear has about that if not more for PvE, since War Hero is based off the high end gear, not Story Mode. This is in PvE ofc! I agree Campaign gear is meh in PvP

Edited May 2, 2012 by Dekai

[DarthKhaos]

*screams* STOP THINKING PVE EQUIPMENT IS VIABLE IN PVP IT ISNT THAT STAT DIFFERENCE DOES NOT MAKE UP FOR 22% DAMAGE INCREASE 20% DAMAGE REDUCTIO)N AND 13% HEALING BOOST RAGE CAPS.

 

Sorry. ;D

 

Think of it this way. When you have that much more str and power, are you gaining a 23%!! percent boost in primary hand damage? No? Ok then it's useless.

 

Stop it.

And when they think you're doing too much dmg in PvP they nerf your dmg and F up your PvE game. AWESOME.

 

Atleast this comment wasn't an insult.

 

What makes you "top" dog is skill, in both pve and pvp. If you are "owning" in pvp or pve because of gear, you're not "top dog."

 

That being said, pve or pvp, you have to -work- for the gear either way. So how is wanting my gear to be viable in either direction not "working for it." You assume I wouldn't pvp for my gear, and unless I'm finding I can not progress because someone else with greater gear is blocking me constantly (and possibly, yes greater skill) I would probably pvp 60% of my gear.

 

<.< Not to mention, when did a game become about "Working?" We're not proffesional athletes or something.

 

Yes what makes someone top dog is skill once gear is not a factor. This is why the gear difference between Battle Master and War Hero is not that great. However you take a lot less time getting Battle Master than War Hero. WHY? So that you don't have a large gear gap in PvP.

 

In PvE the gear gap can and tend to be wider so that you can't grab starter gear and do top end content for the top end gear. Now what will happen when the top gear is the same on both ends? Then the gap between the gear must be wider to accommodate for PvE so now you're messing with the PvP...

 

You just made things worse.

[Azkit]

and to top it all off, you didn't get any xp or money or loot drops unless you actually completed it...

 

would pve'ers like that? does it still sound silly to you?

 

But you do get xp, money, and loot (comm) drops from PvP, even if you don't win... Heck, PvPing is a decent source of credits.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Azkit

[Doomsdaycomes]

But you do get xp, money, and loot (comm) drops from PvP, even if you don't win... Heck, PvPing is a decent source of credits.

 

To be fair, his comparison was in response to my statement "Pvp-only progression, to me feels silly." and my belief that people shouldn't be rewarded for losing.

 

While the situation he described is of course, terrible sounding and nearly unfathomable, PvP has the capacity to be a face roll just as easily. Why it seems silly (despite the fact I'm willing to look for ways to balance the two any way) to me is that it is too random for someone to say "I worked" for my gear, when it is possible all you did was roll newbs for 50 hours. Yes you put in the time, but not the 'effort.'

 

But if PvP is what people want, it's fine. I support people being able to play what they want. I wish others could return the favor.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[DarthKhaos]

But if PvP is what people want, it's fine. I support people being able to play what they want. I wish others could return the favor.

But you can play what you want but in every game there must be rules and limitations. Also you're thinking selfishly. Having the same gear for both PvP & PvE will cause players to be forced to do both to stay competitive which for most is not fun. For me I go through phases. Sometimes I feel like PvE sometimes I feel like PvP. I have so far never had the urge to focus on both. I do not want to be forced to PvP so i can compete in my PvE. And I'm not talking bout to get a best in slot item. I'm talking bout "Those who didn't get their PvE loot yet go grind out PvP to get a couple pieces for the next attempt. YUCK.

 

Progression in PvE & PvP have different rates and for both sides to be happy the rates must be different. For PvP it's a short progression from the starter set to the mid set that will still have you competitive against the top end set. Also the difference in stats between the top end set and the mid set is small. For PvE it's more of a linear progression time wise also you can't have the difference in the gear too close or you'll be able to do the top end content with the lower or mid set gear. Think about the start of this game. People were complaining that you could do hard mode raids with flashpoint gear.

 

Trust me your suggestion will cause more harm than good.

[Haeso]

To be fair, his comparison was in response to my statement "Pvp-only progression, to me feels silly." and my belief that people shouldn't be rewarded for losing.

 

While the situation he described is of course, terrible sounding and nearly unfathomable, PvP has the capacity to be a face roll just as easily. Why it seems silly (despite the fact I'm willing to look for ways to balance the two any way) to me is that it is too random for someone to say "I worked" for my gear, when it is possible all you did was roll newbs for 50 hours. Yes you put in the time, but not the 'effort.'

 

But if PvP is what people want, it's fine. I support people being able to play what they want. I wish others could return the favor.

 

Suggesting PvE requires effort *snicker*. The only way PvE requires effort is finding 7 other non-idiots to play with, this game is easy - the hardest part is just getting around the fact that it's also a dying game. So unless you consider socializing difficult rather than just a nuisance - PvE is not hard.

[DuriZap]

You are making the erroneous assumption that 1 stat of X = 1 stat of Y.

Sorry, but it just isn't true.

 

It surely isn't.

But Bioware should aim at 1 stat of X = 1 stat of Y. This will make future balancing a hell of a lot easier.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Suggesting PvE requires effort *snicker*. The only way PvE requires effort is finding 7 other non-idiots to play with, this game is easy - the hardest part is just getting around the fact that it's also a dying game. So unless you consider socializing difficult rather than just a nuisance - PvE is not hard.

 

*Snickers* Suggesting pvp requires effort. All you have to do is face roll a few newbs after the game auto finds matches for you. Especially if you've set up your own premade team. *Rolls eyes*

 

Go tell a few raiders Soa requires no effort.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[mystbladex]

PvP you can get rewarding being naked, all you have to do is queue up participate until the end of the match win or lose you get something, do this 1000 times and you got yourself a nice pvpset

[Doomsdaycomes]

But you can play what you want but in every game there must be rules and limitations. Also you're thinking selfishly. Having the same gear for both PvP & PvE will cause players to be forced to do both to stay competitive which for most is not fun. For me I go through phases. Sometimes I feel like PvE sometimes I feel like PvP. I have so far never had the urge to focus on both. I do not want to be forced to PvP so i can compete in my PvE. And I'm not talking bout to get a best in slot item. I'm talking bout "Those who didn't get their PvE loot yet go grind out PvP to get a couple pieces for the next attempt. YUCK.

 

Progression in PvE & PvP have different rates and for both sides to be happy the rates must be different. For PvP it's a short progression from the starter set to the mid set that will still have you competitive against the top end set. Also the difference in stats between the top end set and the mid set is small. For PvE it's more of a linear progression time wise also you can't have the difference in the gear too close or you'll be able to do the top end content with the lower or mid set gear. Think about the start of this game. People were complaining that you could do hard mode raids with flashpoint gear.

 

Trust me your suggestion will cause more harm than good.

 

Unfortunately for your above point, you still haven't grasped the model presented, where pve and pvp would have the same kind of loot system (comms) and same progression. I don't blame you, most people coming from another AAA mmo have the same problem of fathoming a new system.

 

As for your second point, I suppose there is merit in that. If PvP and PvE progression were the same, it would slow down PvP progression, making the gap between tier one and tier three further apart. The benefit there would of course be the ability to move between the two if one activity is undoable (can't find group, heavily geared pvp opponents.)

 

At this point, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[DarthKhaos]

Unfortunately for your above point, you still haven't grasped the model presented, where pve and pvp would have the same kind of loot system (comms) and same progression. I don't blame you, most people coming from another AAA mmo have the same problem of fathoming a new system.

 

As for your second point, I suppose there is merit in that. If PvP and PvE progression were the same, it would slow down PvP progression, making the gap between tier one and tier three further apart. The benefit there would of course be the ability to move between the two if one activity is undoable (can't find group, heavily geared pvp opponents.)

 

At this point, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I do get that. You're missing the point when it comes to the difference in how PvPers & PvErs view what is acceptable when it comes to progression time and progression quality of gear.

Let's split it up into 3 groups of gear for progression. Starter, Intermediary & Best.

 

For PvP the difference in quality of gear between Starter & Intermediary ALSO Intermediary & Best shouldn't be great however the difference between Starter & Best would be noticeable. On top of that the time to go from Starter to Intermediary should be short to allow players to be competitive and not be facerolled by those in Best gear for an extended period of time. The time between Intermediary & Best could be much longer.

 

Now for PvE you cannot have the difference in quality of gear between Starter & Intermediary or Intermediary to Best be small or people will be able to do Best content in Starter gear. ALSO the time between Starter to Intermediary to Best can take a more linear progression because Starter will NOT be facing Best opponents.

 

This is the difference you're failing to grasp. By making the time progression more linear in PvP to match PvE then you'll have a longer time where players in Starter gear are at a serious disadvantage. By making the PvE time progression match the PvP time progression players will feel cheated in their content viewing it as a waste and forcing them a stupid grind when they got their first leg of progression done faster.

 

The mentalities of the players are different and what each group views as acceptable differs. God forbid we keep the time progression for each group to be happy then PvPers would feel forced to PvP to get the gear to progress for the first leg and PvPers would feel forced to PvE to progress for the second leg. This is one reason to keep it separate.

 

The other is in adjusting stuff for PvP and not having it affect PvE. we all know how that works out without a PvP stat and having the gear separate.

Edited May 3, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Revelationjp]

I've been PVE'ing for a long time, and just started PVP'ing. I ran my dailies in my recruit gear with 2 pieces BM last night, and while it wasn't difficult per se, I noticed a distinct dip in performance due to the drop in primary stats. My PVE gear wasn't raid by any stretch of the imagination, just orange with blue 50 with some purple 51 mods. The OP is going to refuse to believe anything we say because it doesn't fit his view of how he want s it to be.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I've been PVE'ing for a long time, and just started PVP'ing. I ran my dailies in my recruit gear with 2 pieces BM last night, and while it wasn't difficult per se, I noticed a distinct dip in performance due to the drop in primary stats. My PVE gear wasn't raid by any stretch of the imagination, just orange with blue 50 with some purple 51 mods. The OP is going to refuse to believe anything we say because it doesn't fit his view of how he want s it to be.

 

However, you were able to finish your dailies in pvp gear, did you not? Now, try taking your PvE gear into a warzone, and report back your observation of your performance there. Secondly, his comparison is War Hero to Campaign gear, and how one is viable in two places and one is not. Using Recruit gear is no where near War Hero.

[DarthKhaos]

However, you were able to finish your dailies in pvp gear, did you not? Now, try taking your PvE gear into a warzone, and report back your observation of your performance there. Secondly, his comparison is War Hero to Campaign gear, and how one is viable in two places and one is not. Using Recruit gear is no where near War Hero.

DUDE the only thing you have to do to EARN the Recruit gear is BE level 50. You're acting like you got to do a bunch of PvP grind to get it. Sheesh. You're getting out of hand now.