The Pros and Cons of a Marauder

[MrXen]

You’ve got to be kidding me. I’ve been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It’s just common sense.

 

 

Sigh

[mcdoogle]

What about Assassin's DPS? They have ranged and melee, and both can really lay a hurt. NERF THEM! THEY CAN KILL YOU!

[Bnol]

Now here come the Cons to the marauder class with some details added for people that don't play Marauders.

Your list of cons are applicable to a lot of classes, yet those classes also do not have the same pros as Maras.

 

1. Very susceptible to being kited.

This con is arguable, but for argument's sake I will grant you this. Concealment Ops and dps Assasins are even more susceptible to kiting than Maras. Any difficulty in staying on a target is shared with Juggs as well. You have a talent tree that helps to mitigate this weakness. You also need this weakness or else your damage would have to be toned down.

 

2. Very low survivability outside of defensive CDs.

Everyone dies quickly outside of defensive CDs. The difference between medium armor and heavy armor is very little, especially in a PVP context. Focus fire is the real danger in PVP, and Maras are given 2 great CDs to counter focus fire. Mara CDs are also fairly short considering the amount of CDs they have and the strength of those CDs.

 

3. Nearly no utility outside of pure damage.

This is not true. Maras provide 2 unique group utility abilities in Predation and Bloodthirst, in addition to being 1 of only 2 ACs that have a healing debuff. You certainly bring more utility than all other dps classes/specs.

 

4. Are hard countered by Snipers in Group PVP to an almost impossible degree.

Your con is you are countered by the least played AC in the game. Every class has a hard time killing operative healers because they are built to be elusive so you are again not alone on that con.

 

5. Very weak at killing tanks in PVP.

Very few tanks actually utilize tanking stats because they have less usefulness in PVP. Further, the tanks you are likely talking about are tanksins which take everyone a long time to kill because of CDs and self-healing capability. I see very few full tank Juggs and virtually no full tank PTs as you are just sacrificing too much for minimal survivability. But, if you really want to kill tanks you can gear for more accuracy to overcome their defensive stats, of course this would lower your damage to all other targets. Or you can just go kill the healers or dps, instead of attacking the tanks.

 

I don't want them to gut Maras, but small adjustments need to be made for PVP balance (something that Bioware decided to just throw out in 1.2).

 

Edit: Tanksins need to be adjusted as well, and worse performing ACs brought up a bit.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Bnol

[GrantyJPS]

I do fine against Marauders on my Merc, because I can get the drop on them, and generally out-damage them.

 

I mean, want to talk about a long 6 seconds? How about when they burn their charge and immediately eat a jet boost, so they're knockbacked and snared. Then while they're coming back to me they eat a 5k homing missile crit.

 

I mean, of the list of AC's I have trouble against in PvP, Marauders are like 17th. And on a sorcerer or sage I can't see any reason you should have trouble with them at all. You have a slow, and an AoE knockback. Learn to use the terrain and your team, and stop trying to beat Marauders in 1 v 1 melee.

 

You'll have no troubles getting some fraps of you destroying these marauders then I assume. Please post these in the Trooper/Merc forums with a nice "Video-guide for beating marauders" title so I dont miss it. Many thanks!

 

I cant wait

Edited April 26, 2012 by GrantyJPS

[V-Serp]

You'll have no troubles getting some fraps of you destroying these marauders then I assume. Please post these in the Trooper/Merc forums with a nice "Video-guide for beating marauders" title so I dont miss it. Many thanks!

 

I cant wait

 

He will show you a team focus firing, since according to him you need a team and can't 1 v 1 them. Somehow that isn't OPed.

 

The Mara that can't figure out how to get in to do damage is going to show you how to beat other dumb Maras that can't use any of their abilities correctly, and don't use Undying Rage (and probably think Force Camo is useless too).

 

If the only Maras I ever played can only charge me every 12 seconds and are otherwise clueless, I agree it would be a terrible class. Although every class would suck when you don't use their best abilities.

[Ehlin]

Most replies I seen in here can be summed up as a "Wahh I got pwned by a Marauder because I can't L2P, Nerf them! Wahh!"

 

The class is a pure melee dps class, ALL IT CAN DO IS DPS. So now that it's doing it's job correctly and not a useless class anymore you guys want to nerf it? Nerf the range classes damage output then while you at it.

 

Did you play pre 1.2? Sent/marauder was in no way useless.

[mcdoogle]

Did you play pre 1.2? Sent/marauder was in no way useless.

 

A Carnage Marauder was broken and would get roflstomped.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

You'll have no troubles getting some fraps of you destroying these marauders then I assume. Please post these in the Trooper/Merc forums with a nice "Video-guide for beating marauders" title so I dont miss it. Many thanks!

 

I cant wait

 

I don't even know what a fraps is, and I'm too lazy to figure out how to use a hosting service.

 

But like I said, it's not incredibly complex. On Merc, even if it ends up in a 1 v. 1 situation, you're just in a dps race. Knockbacks give you a pretty good advantage since you can reduce their time on target in a way they can't reciprocate.

 

And while V-Serp insists on turning everything I say into a straw man, I'm not saying "you need a team to beat a marauder." I'm saying that if you're a reasonably squishy ranged dps (like myself and V-Serp) you shouldn't be charging into melee combat. You should be hanging out at the periphery doing as much damage as possible while hopefully tankier member of your team take the hits.

[V-Serp]

Most replies I seen in here can be summed up as a "Wahh I got pwned by a Marauder because I can't L2P, Nerf them! Wahh!"

 

The class is a pure melee dps class, ALL IT CAN DO IS DPS. So now that it's doing it's job correctly and not a useless class anymore you guys want to nerf it? Nerf the range classes damage output then while you at it.

 

The irony of this post is incredible.

 

So basically you sucked at the game and couldn't play it, but after the patch you magically gained skill while (you claim) the class itself wasn't buffed?

 

I guess everyone else needs a magic patch now, that is how people "L2P", with patches. Overnight.

 

If you read the patch notes you would see they did nerf range, they destroyed several range classes completely by removing damage, sometimes destroying entire builds, other times just cutting down damage drastically. Meanwhile they of course buffed Mara damage and survivability.

 

Prior to 1.2 the best players all said Mara was the best class in the game. On PTS the testers were amazed at what Bioware was doing, and told them Maras would be OPed. Bioware ignored the feedback, closed down the forum, and actively erased posts (and then banned) the guy warning them. It was soon after 1.2, and Bioware erased at least 20 threads because people kept re-posting the guy's post listing problems with 1.2 and suggesting fixes. It was really funny.

 

Oh btw now I will get this thread erased if they see it, although probably I would have to post the post that person wrote.

 

No, you people didn't just get good at the class overnight. No, you're not playing a weak class. And for god's sakes, stop whining about other people playing the class, of course we're going to play the class as long as it is so broken. Just accept the fact that within 2 weeks you will be back to being the worst player in a WZ because the rest of us will all have our level 50 Maras by then.

[mcdoogle]

Okay wait I get it now, we would get melted by pretty much every class pre 1.2 and you guys weren't OP. But now, since we can melt you guys back, We are now OP....Okay I get it now, makes perfect sense!

 

Can we nerf assassin's and snipers? They do lots of damage! Silly DPS classes need to learn their places and not do damage. Tsk, tsk.

 

I can be a baddie and faceroll a assassin or sniper and wtfpwnz people. The Marauder was one of the hardest classes to master pre-1.2, Please don't be blind and think a Marauder is the number 1 OP class in this game right now.

 

Only reason why you people are crying about this class is because your not use to being slapped around by them yet.

Must suck being on the other side of the fence now huh?

Edited April 26, 2012 by mcdoogle

[Smashbrother]

What are you talking about Marauders are not focused? Now I see what your problem is... if you let them alone they are very, very dangerous. Don't let them alone.

 

Also, undying rage is a joke. Yes it's a six second immunity, but then they're immediately dead. D E D dead. It's not hard to survive through six seconds of that.

 

6s immunity is a joke? What are you smoking? Can I please have some? There is no other class that can survive 8 people dpsing them all at once for 6 sec. That 6 sec immunity also allows a healer to heal them back to full. Guarded by the force is the best defensive cd in the game. And its also has a short cd.

 

I never told people to kite. I made the point that being rooted or snared is much, much worse for melee classes than it is for ranged. Ranged can at least duke it out if they're stuck, melee just has to sit there and get beat up.

 

Roots are only a serious issue if the enemy team is organized and coordinated (chain rooting). None last more than 2-3 sec under fire anyways. This issue is also much worse for other melee classes like scoundrels or guardians.

 

You make it sound like those rage-less abilities are much easier than they are. Ravage is on a 30 second CD, and you can't get all those free vicious slashes without first spending a bunch of rage.

 

Basically, marauders are not really as dangerous as people make them out to be, people just need to L2P against them.

 

Sentinels are for sure the top 3 most dangerous in pvp. The other two being tank shadows and assault vanguards. Neither of those have a healer debuff or as many interrupts.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

6s immunity is a joke? What are you smoking? Can I please have some? There is no other class that can survive 8 people dpsing them all at once for 6 sec. That 6 sec immunity also allows a healer to heal them back to full. Guarded by the force is the best defensive cd in the game. And its also has a short cd.

 

 

 

Sentinels are for sure the top 3 most dangerous in pvp. The other two being tank shadows and assault vanguards. Neither of those have a healer debuff or as many interrupts.

 

Alright, I may have been a bit hyperbolic in calling 6 seconds of immunity a joke. But then again, I'm not sure why anyone would continue focus-firing someone who was immune, and I don't think I've seen anyone get healed back out of it.

 

I'm not saying they're not dangerous, but I think they're getting overhyped. I suppose my main point is that in my experience their survivability is not nearly as big as people make it out to be, and they're still quite beatable.

[Anbokr]

People seem to think Marauders are 31/31/31. Annihilation has great single target dps and survivability but gets destroyed by dispellers/assassins. Carnage has a plethora of roots and an awesome predation but is the squishiest marauder spec in the game and is very unreliable compared to annihilation. All of it's burst comes from gore so watching for the gore and stunning/knocking back etc... when that goes up, the carnage marauder is useless (gore only lasts 6 seconds). Rage marauders are really gimmicky and easily counterable--it's obvious when the dude is going to smash just pop your defensive CD and he's done.

[Anbokr]

6s immunity is a joke? What are you smoking? Can I please have some? There is no other class that can survive 8 people dpsing them all at once for 6 sec. That 6 sec immunity also allows a healer to heal them back to full. Guarded by the force is the best defensive cd in the game. And its also has a short cd.

.

 

Sure if all 8 dps have tunnel vision.. If you have 8 dps against a marauder and a healer it's very simple: you kill the healer first then you destroy the marauder. If you just feel like focusing down the marauder, when he pops undying rage, 2+ dps can target switch to the healer and then the healer and the marauder die. This game isn't balanced around mindless zergfests--there are a plethora of soft and hard counters in the game, and such a thing called "game sense," Unless your one of those guys that just mindlessly dpses whoever is closest to him.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Anbokr

[V-Serp]

Sure if all 8 dps have tunnel vision.. If you have 8 dps against a marauder and a healer it's very simple: you kill the healer first then you destroy the marauder. If you just feel like focusing down the marauder, when he pops undying rage, 2+ dps can target switch to the healer and then the healer and the marauder die. This game isn't balanced around mindless zergfests--there are a plethora of soft and hard counters in the game, and such a thing called "game sense," Unless your one of those guys that just mindlessly dpses whoever is closest to him.

 

Once again we're back to needing a team to beat the Mara. What do you do when there are multiple Maras? Because, you know, warzones aren't 1v8 or even 2v8 affairs in most cases. They're supposed to be 8v8.

 

So now you've got multiple invincible monsters that even focus firing can't do a thing about. Apparently everyone is supposed to run away, although that'll be hard to do with the Mara's leaping towards you, snaring you, etc. and then just killing you.

 

It's amazing that even the staunchest defenders can't come up with better tactics than "run away" and "don't attack them." I don't have a much better solution either. You just have to pray they are stupid and don't have any cooldowns up, or you can stun them before they can do anything (and hope they don't have the CC break).

 

The cooldowns are all pretty short though.

[Kalcombo]

So I play a marauder, carnage post 1.2 mostly anni pre 1.2, and to be honest, a lot of these things were present pre 1.2, but are now being posted about after 1.2 has come out. I think a lot has to do with expertise changes and how damage is being more favored than tanking and healing, making pure damage classes better. As for a marauder, like someone said above me a lot of people are using marauder utility as if every marauder was 31/31/31. Most anni marauders will not use predation now that the 80% buff is in carnage, ravage's real boost to damage is when used with gore in carnage spec as it roots the person in place with 100% armor pen. If you stand in the ravage, I don't think it's the mara's fault.

As to the comment with marauder's having no utility, as a carnage marauder I think I have tons. With the deadly throw root and ravage root it helps slowing people down, although carnage doesn't put up great numbers it provides more utility. A lot of people are basing their pvp experiences on how much damage one class puts out, which is fair. But as far as my server, Rakata Mind Prison, goes I've seen every dps class (except maybe lightning sorc and conceal ops now) put out of 300k, but it's not really the damage that wins games. People saying how 4 marauders will be unkillable in warzones aren't thinking about utility other classes possess.

I will agree that this game has become sort of a damage based game, but when you're stunned on a fire you want that pull from a sorc, or grapples from a PT, or intercede from juggs, or aoe dmg abilities like grenades for when you're stopping people from capping. Marauders can't do everything, and people make it seem like they can, I'm not saying we're not OP, I personally think we were pre 1.2, and not much has changed post 1.2 except for expertise changes and ravage, people are just dying a lot faster and pure dmg classes are on top right now.

 

TL;DR Sorry you dont really have to read it just my 2 cents

[anticept]

A Carnage Marauder was broken and would get roflstomped.

 

2/3 ac´s working is pretty much better than any other class has in 1.2. Go pewpew now that you got´s the goodies.

[Nyaara]

As Gunsliner, Marauder are not a problem for me. However, they need to be tuned down a bit. Very low cooldowns and some op combo i saw: 99% damage shield when almost dead---->vanish--->healing potion and back to fight around 40% hp. That is not funny at all.

 

aAl we know, as all we knew when Operatives, they need a nerf.

[Azrienov]

Some reasonable points. But you don't take a marauder because you want them to help you run the ball. You don't take a marauder because you want them to knock people off ledges.

 

Marauders are a huge asset in any warzone (even huttball, where healers being mauled by marauders or players being intercepted and devoured by them make certain to wreak havoc with coordinating efforts). They bring a strong buff to the table, and can kill anyone with the right use of skills. A smart mara can lolpwn an OP healer if he knows when to stun. An assisting marauder is anyones worst nightmare. Saying "Snipers are a hard counter to me" is a waste of breath. Everyone has a hard counter. When a marauder has help with a sniper via a tank or someone stunning them out of their shield, yeah.... no more sniper.

 

Peoples complaint about marauder is it is far too forgiving. You make a mistake and you can cover it up easily by running away with a timely stealth application. Now look at commando/mercenary. You screw up with positioning, and you're dead. Melee snares and then pounds you. Whats more, melee JUMP to you. You can play it smart, and still do it wrong. Thats where the complaints come from

[BiggDirty]

Your list of "cons" is ridiculous.

 

I win huttball games almost single handedly between transcendence, leap, camo, and guarded by the force.

 

My supposed squishiness is irrelevant, because ANY class will die in that situation, and since I'm a dedicated DPS, I actually am able to live way longer than I should be able to.

 

Can't do damage to tanks, who cares?? I'm not attacking tanks, I'm attacking healers, and once all the healers are dead, my entire team is on the tanks and they are going to die anyway.

 

Easily kited? That's a laugh. I have NEVER been successfully kited in this game. Trying playing a warrior vs mage in WoW if you wanna know what being kited feels like.

 

We have no cons. And mark my words you will see MANY top rated teams with 4+ marauders.

[Kaarsa]

So basically you sucked at the game and couldn't play it, but after the patch you magically gained skill while (you claim) the class itself wasn't buffed?

 

If you read the patch notes you would see they did nerf range, they destroyed several range classes completely by removing damage, sometimes destroying entire builds, other times just cutting down damage drastically. Meanwhile they of course buffed Mara damage and survivability.

 

Prior to 1.2 the best players all said Mara was the best class in the game. On PTS the testers were amazed at what Bioware was doing, and told them Maras would be OPed.

 

(some *snips*, some consipracy theories, usual stuff)

 

Funniest thing about those PTS warning is that prevailing amount of them was about RAGE marauders, who were supposed to swarm like ants, jump on enemy team and insta gib them all. Well, I dont see that after 1.2, and in coordinated play if you cant counter a 1 trick pony team (save aoe knockback, when 2+ marauders charge you, press button, thank you, you just made their main source of damage non-existant for next 9 seconds).

 

Now, from my experience (maybe situation is different on other servers) most marauders are annihilation (and sent are watchman). Lets see what has changed for this spec:

 

1. Obfucate without rage cost (minor, 1 rage every minute?) and off GCD (quite big, it is definately a buff).

 

2. Interrupt whithout rage cost (pretty big - helps with rage management)

 

3. 15% buff to ravage, ravage cant be interrupted - minor - you rarely have time for full ravage, getting hit by CC or victim walking away from it happens very often (if enemy knows what he is doing, sorc trying to outdamage you standing in melee range spamming force lighting do not count). Two first hits are very useful ofc, so minor buff.

 

4. 50% slow on rupture if specced - nice thing, quality of life improvement - my tragets tend to have to slows on them now instead of only 1;)

 

5. Moving 80% run speed buff to carnage - painful nerf. I specced combat after 1.2 and omg, this guy was unkitable...unfortunately, without dots heals he was squishy as hell too

 

6. No more 100% damage reduction on phantom - big nerf. No more 9 sec on invicibility, no more walking through fire (without ball ofc) etc.

 

7. Removal of quick recovery - nerf, no more converting of excess rage into fury, less berserks/predations.

 

Overall - where are those extreme buffs everyone speaks about? Sure, carnage was buffed, rage was buffed, but they are still weaker than annihilation, which IMO was rather nerfed than buffed.

 

Now, ranged classed was destroyed. Which ones? Sorcs? Do you support theory that wrath was working as it should be (especially comparing to madness assasin version of that talent)? Mercenaries? That right after patch was putting some stupid high damage because of bug, now they have stupid low (on heetseekers) because of bug too (it will equalize) - you honestly want to evaluate class with known bug on highest hitting skill? Maybe snipers, who just got some new damage buffs? Or powertechs, which are not only not a range class, but one of the most powerful DPSer in game?

 

OP made a good post, I dont completly agree with everything, but highlight are fine. Marauders are powerful, whithout a doubt, but they basicaly didnt change much - annihilation was annihilation opponents before 1.2, it is anninhilating them now and suddenly it is OP. I ask - what has changed?

[Xerain]

Funniest thing about those PTS warning is that prevailing amount of them was about RAGE marauders, who were supposed to swarm like ants, jump on enemy team and insta gib them all. Well, I dont see that after 1.2, and in coordinated play if you cant counter a 1 trick pony team (save aoe knockback, when 2+ marauders charge you, press button, thank you, you just made their main source of damage non-existant for next 9 seconds).

 

Now, from my experience (maybe situation is different on other servers) most marauders are annihilation (and sent are watchman). Lets see what has changed for this spec:

 

1. Obfucate without rage cost (minor, 1 rage every minute?) and off GCD (quite big, it is definately a buff).

 

2. Interrupt whithout rage cost (pretty big - helps with rage management)

 

3. 15% buff to ravage, ravage cant be interrupted - minor - you rarely have time for full ravage, getting hit by CC or victim walking away from it happens very often (if enemy knows what he is doing, sorc trying to outdamage you standing in melee range spamming force lighting do not count). Two first hits are very useful ofc, so minor buff.

 

4. 50% slow on rupture if specced - nice thing, quality of life improvement - my tragets tend to have to slows on them now instead of only 1;)

 

5. Moving 80% run speed buff to carnage - painful nerf. I specced combat after 1.2 and omg, this guy was unkitable...unfortunately, without dots heals he was squishy as hell too

 

6. No more 100% damage reduction on phantom - big nerf. No more 9 sec on invicibility, no more walking through fire (without ball ofc) etc.

 

7. Removal of quick recovery - nerf, no more converting of excess rage into fury, less berserks/predations.

 

Overall - where are those extreme buffs everyone speaks about? Sure, carnage was buffed, rage was buffed, but they are still weaker than annihilation, which IMO was rather nerfed than buffed.

 

Now, ranged classed was destroyed. Which ones? Sorcs? Do you support theory that wrath was working as it should be (especially comparing to madness assasin version of that talent)? Mercenaries? That right after patch was putting some stupid high damage because of bug, now they have stupid low (on heetseekers) because of bug too (it will equalize) - you honestly want to evaluate class with known bug on highest hitting skill? Maybe snipers, who just got some new damage buffs? Or powertechs, which are not only not a range class, but one of the most powerful DPSer in game?

 

OP made a good post, I dont completly agree with everything, but highlight are fine. Marauders are powerful, whithout a doubt, but they basicaly didnt change much - annihilation was annihilation opponents before 1.2, it is anninhilating them now and suddenly it is OP. I ask - what has changed?

 

People don't get a lot of these points at all it's terrible.

 

Oh and the interrupt not being 1 point now is a quality of life thing too as everyone else's interrupt was free anyways.

 

THB ravage could probably get toned down a little...

[BiggDirty]

Sorry but annihilation is not better than carnage anymore.

 

I put out way more damage as carnage and the 80% speed buff is an absolute MUST in rateds.

[Xerain]

Sorry but annihilation is not better than carnage anymore.

 

I put out way more damage as carnage and the 80% speed buff is an absolute MUST in rateds.

 

Yes it is, carnage is still lacking, it's a sad thing.

[Kaarsa]

Sorry but annihilation is not better than carnage anymore.

 

I put out way more damage as carnage and the 80% speed buff is an absolute MUST in rateds.

 

I am sorry, I was talking about current state of game, so mostly PuGs. I agree that carnage is great spec with good utility and still powerful damage, but you cannot shutdown healer as good as anni, you will lose more 1v1 because of lack of self heal and your burst period (after gore) is easily countered by single CC. Sure, big part of anni damage is countered by a single cleanse and when poeple will actually learn to play (ie. ranked WZ with organized groups) carnage may be a better choice (or at least equal). For a standard PuGs (which are main source of marauders are OP complains IMO) anni still > all.