Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[DarkDruidSS]

This thread is still here?

 

The forums are full of QQ'ers, the OP is obviously biased for no expertise, and the poll is STILL in favor of keeping expertise. Argument over.

 

Yea, poll is pretty much over at this point. Needed wins... regardless of what the OP wants to spout... his own thread proves that the majority want it.

 

*** DISCLAIMER ***

Yes, I know the poll result is really low with a meager 185 votes total. However, of the people that did care to vote over the past 2 weeks.. the majority did vote for Needed. The vast majority of people that visit the forums probably never saw this thread and of the people that did... very few cared to vote which means the arguement is pretty moot to begin with. Then on top of all of that.. the percentage of people that actually visit the forums is extremely low compared to the number that actually you know... play the game.

 

/thread

Edited May 8, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[DarkHelsing]

Yea, poll is pretty much over at this point. Needed wins... regardless of what the OP wants to spout... his own thread proves that the majority want it.

 

*** DISCLAIMER ***

Yes, I know the poll result is really low with a meager 185 votes total. However, of the people that did care to vote over the past 2 weeks.. the majority did vote for Needed. The vast majority of people that visit the forums probably never saw this thread and of the people that did... very few cared to vote which means the arguement is pretty moot to begin with. Then on top of all of that.. the percentage of people that actually visit the forums is extremely low compared to the number that actually you know... play the game.

 

/thread

 

So you think it is cool to have almost 50% of the Poll not liking the current system? Wow, ur a funny guy.

 

Poll is working as intended.

/unthread

 

PS

That disclaimer... the only thing I can say is you might want to study up on how Polls work.

Edited May 8, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Jadescythe]

So you think it is cool to have almost 50% of the Poll not liking the current system? Wow, ur a funny guy.

 

Poll is working as intended.

/unthread

 

PS

That disclaimer... the only thing I can say is you might want to study up on how Polls work.

 

The goal of any poll is to find a majority to make a decision. Ideally you would want everyone to pick the same choice, but I think there is a substantially higher percentage of people for expertise based on your poll. Why would you change something that more than half of the people polled want?

 

This poll is based on opinion, not facts. Therefore you will never find a suggestion that will appease both sides. Some people like a gear progression in PVP that rewards better stats and some don't. Some people want PVE gear to work for PVP too, some don't. Neither side is right or wrong, they simply have their own opinion.

 

PS

Why attack someone for a valid disclaimer? A poll of 200 people out of what is currently 1.3 million subscribers hardly qualifies as a representative sample. Also, the sample is limited to those people who 1) read the forums, 2) post on the forums, and 3) check the PVP section on the forums. For all we know the players who may only do PVP for fun on occassion may side with you and the poll may be extremely skewed to the pro-expertise side simply because they don't read the PVP forums. This is just an open forum, so let your thread be a place for people to give their input on the subject of expertise rather than attacking the posts of others (yes I know he is doing the same thing, but this isn't his thread).

[DarkDruidSS]

So you think it is cool to have almost 50% of the Poll not liking the current system? Wow, ur a funny guy.

 

Poll is working as intended.

/unthread

 

PS

That disclaimer... the only thing I can say is you might want to study up on how Polls work.

 

Look, I'm sorry the thread didn't go the way you were imagning it and people didn't take it seriously, but the thread has been up for 2 weeks and you have a grand total of 185 votes. Needed won in your very small experiment.

 

Please point out how it appears that I don't understand how a poll works.

 

For entertainment purposes I would like to point out that /unthread would be the same as deleting the thread... so you probably don't want to do that.

[JeramieCrowe]

Firstly not once have I mentioned WoW. I discussed why the stat is needed. In your entire rant how was these uber items achieved in Ultima Online? Via PvE. There was no way to get gear even if it's the same as PvE gear via PvP. This is a significent difference.

 

I'll say this again. In an MMO gear ALWAYS matter. Even if you didn't have any PvP gear those with better or higher tier gear is at an advantage against those who do not so those saying they don't want a gear vs gear game makes me laugh.

 

I'll break it down again for you. You have Basic, Intermediate and Advance gear. In PvE the difference in quality (or power) of the gear from Basic to Intermediate OR Intermediate to Advance is larger than it would be in PvP. Why? Because if the difference is small people would be able to skip Intermediate gear ans work straight to Advance gear. In PvP the difference is small so players have a fighting chance.

 

Then there's how fast you can achieve the gear or rate of progression. In PvP you need to have a faster rate of progression from Basic to Intermediate so that players can be competitive against those in Advance gear. If you have this progression take too long you will find less and less players PvPing because those in Advance gear dominating longer. The rate of progression from Intermediate to Advance can be much longer. In PvE however the rate of progression from Basic to Intermediate to Advanced should be a more linear.

 

If these two things are not put in place what would happen is PvErs would be forced to PvP for gear or vice versa.

Is this simple enough for you?

 

In addition you can have more progression points in PvE than PvP. If in patch 1.3 they decide to bring out another operation and tier of raid gear this would not affect PvP and they can keep adding more tiers of raids. Hell they only would have to adjust the Basic Intermediate & Advance gear for PvP if a level increase is implemented.

 

You don't need Expertise to achieve that. Just offer the same gear as PvE through the PvP avenue.

 

Besides, here and elsewhere, and through the many channels BioWare uses for feedback, the overwhelming majority of PvPers chose "PvPvE" as a means of open-world PvP. That means that raid-like bosses can be a part of the PvP battles that reward the same gear Ops do, or the same tokens.

 

Then the people that like to do both don't have to grind gear twice. It's simple and effective. Why go the more convoluted route of Expertise? Why risk alienating fresh 50s?

[JeramieCrowe]

Look, I'm sorry the thread didn't go the way you were imagning it and people didn't take it seriously, but the thread has been up for 2 weeks and you have a grand total of 185 votes. Needed won in your very small experiment.

 

Please point out how it appears that I don't understand how a poll works.

 

Who cares? Obviously, the issue is still a point of discussion with the community.

Edited May 8, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[DarkHelsing]

First, if the losing vote was only 5-10% of the total votes, that's one thing, but over 40% is totally different, that kind of a margin requires issues to be addressed.

 

Second, if that doesn't make any sense, I'm not going to sit here and give a lesson on how a Poll works, take a class in statistics people.

 

Because those that are ignorant on the subject topic don't want to be proven wrong, here's a link that I doubt anyone will educate themselves with;

http://www.gallup.com/poll/7174/yes-polling-works.aspx

 

EXCERPT

PRINCETON, NJ -- There's little question that some Americans are skeptical of polls and the process by which we use small samples to represent the views of millions of people.

You can read the rest for yourselves.

Edited May 8, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Zintair]

I'd like to see the individual benefits of +Damage Reduction / +Damage For / +Healing be used more individually.

 

It allows tanks who want tank ... to buy tank gear with effective PvP tanking stats.

 

It allows Healers to buy Healing gear with effective Healing stats.

 

It allows DPS to buy DPS gear with DPS PvP stats

 

 

It also prevents Problems with Hybrid Gear/Spec classes like Shadow and Vanguard who some consider over powerful.

 

It also prevents Sentinels and any other DPS or Healing classes to become too powerful in any other stat other than their main trinity role DPS.

 

 

In order to make sure classes have enough of their off-PvP stats there could be a static bonus applied to all the classes as a minimum.

 

Or there could be a system implemented that totaled the number of PvP gear pieces equipped in the main 5 slots. 5 slots giving a natural bonus to ALL Expertise stats. Ad the base number rising the more of the set you get ie Recruit/BM/WH 15%/20%/25% (with each piece representing 1/5 of the 15/20/25% so 3.75/5/6.25% a piece of gear of respective set)

 

Then you just figure out how much base stats all the classes would have across the board and how much Main stat they would receive from the gear pieces.

 

You could naturally balance the numbers individually for all classes if really necessary. And it seems the ONLY way to balance classes based on Gear/Role.

 

It would also allow people to figure out the best combination of + to each of the 3 PVP Expertise stats they would want simply by buying one of the 2 sets the class has available or buying a different classes set piece and taking out the item and replacing yours.

 

Allowing full customization sound familiar?

 

 

Thoughts suggestions? I kinda just came up with it so don't hesitate to shoot me down it all sounds good on paper.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Zintair

[SlimsPicken]

You don't need Expertise to achieve that. Just offer the same gear as PvE through the PvP avenue.

 

Common sense is not so common it seems on video game development teams.

 

They split the playerbase and make the PVP/PVE inaccessible to each other, and somehow think thats a good design?

[Delease]

Common sense is not so common it seems on video game development teams.

 

They split the playerbase and make the PVP/PVE inaccessible to each other, and somehow think thats a good design?

 

Actually PVE is required for PVP. You have to make money somehow to remod augmented gear. 500k for 5 pieces of gear for me last night.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[evilxpoptart]

Back in my day we didnt have this fancy expertise for pvp. You pulled up your boot straps and went out into the world hitting opposing players with sticks and sharp objects. Hell I didnt even get xp for it back then iirc.

[Lugh]

Back in my day we didnt have this fancy expertise for pvp. You pulled up your boot straps and went out into the world hitting opposing players with sticks and sharp objects. Hell I didnt even get xp for it back then iirc.

 

Back then you'd kill them, loot ALL their stuff and chop their bodies up into parts for the bestest soups every.

 

UO pvp was the most fun PvP ever. everyone had the same gear, access to skills and lots of fun was had.

 

 

No to expertise

[DarkHelsing]

UO pvp was the most fun PvP ever. everyone had the same gear, access to skills and lots of fun was had.

 

 

No to expertise

 

Yup, I spent months playing UO to get better gear... better "looking" gear. It was all about my opinion and if I liked the way something looked I spent time trying to get it, the stats meant little to nothing in that game, most players PvPd naked or with junk gear they didn't care about losing when they died.

[Elmuerto]

terrible idea, lazy.

[JediDuckling]

Vote:

 

It is needed - 105 votes - 56.75%

It is not needed - 80 votes - 43.24%

 

 

(To clear up some confusion, "It is not needed" would require a re-work of the system to get rid of Expertise, so it would not be the same system just Expertise removed. Removing anything would require other things to be addressed, it wouldn't be just simply remove the stat and continue on. I hope that helps clear things up)

 

Start with one of the above choices in your post, I'll keep tally of the votes. Underneath your vote add why you feel the way you feel, please be as in depth as possible, avoid Flaming, and just place your point-of-view as to your vote. Help me out by not voting more than once, because that would only slow down the tally process.

 

I'll start this off with my response.

 

without the expertise stat pvp would be so broken and the game itself would be broken and there wouldnt be any progression in the game.

 

pvp and pve are 2 seperate progression groups and should stay that way. removing expertise would destroy the 2.

[JeramieCrowe]

without the expertise stat pvp would be so broken and the game itself would be broken and there wouldnt be any progression in the game.

 

pvp and pve are 2 seperate progression groups and should stay that way. removing expertise would destroy the 2.

 

As it stands, yes. Who says they only remove Expertise, though, without also fixing why it's currently needed? Isn't that more ideal, to fix why Expertise is needed in the first place?

Edited May 9, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[AlyxDinas]

Not necessarily, no. The idea is to keep endgame progression paths separate and expertise is the means. That's the only reason why it's "needed" and even that's the wrong word to use since it's not really needed but desired by the developers for a very specific reasons. Suddenly making the same gear available from both progression paths doesn't solve the problem unless you can reasonable have the concurrent progression paths...well, progress at the same general rate such that the time investment is equal for each. Having expertise makes this less of an issue, in terms of figuring out an effective concurrent design. It also has the benefit of rewarding players uniquely for certain skillsets and achievements. For instance, seeing someone in Campaigner gear tells you something about them that is different than seeing them in War Hero. And there's a certain appeal to that.

 

That's not to say it can't be done or that finding a rewards structure that rewards all players with the same items is impossible, just that it's really really difficult and not necessarily the cleanest solution. If you want to remove expertise, the solution is not in he upwards mobility path and gear acquisition. The answer actually rests in something similar to the bolster system.

Edited May 9, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Wubsie]

My vote: It is not needed.

 

Want to know how to get rid of it fairly easily? Straight up take it out. The system that's currently in place for gear, IE grinding it in PvP vs. PvE works. Dumb down the stats in PvE armor to be equivalent to the stats of PvP armor. Boom. Guess what? You've got a system that doesn't favor anyone in particular, and everyone can PvP on par with everyone else.

 

Yes, there will still be a gear advantage to those with Rakata or Black Hole vs. people in recruit and BM. Guess what? It'd end up being the identical advantage someone in War Hero has vs. the same people in BM/recruit gear.

 

Once again, boom. Fixed.

[Belfea]

Not needed. The worst thing they've done was to separate pve et pvp populations.

[Calitri]

Not needed. The worst thing they've done was to separate pve et pvp populations.

 

Ditto

[Narfirill]

it is not needed and other projects proved that

[DarthKhaos]

I did this already. Several times, the first time is the very second post in this entire thread, soo... if that's not enough for you, oh well.

 

All mmo's huh? Ever hear of a game called Guild Wars? So no, no no no no, and that's my point, you keep stating Black and White "all this..." and "every that..." and those are totally false statements. No, not ALL MMOs are GvG! If you can't accept that point then this will be my last response to you.

 

My point there was and is Expertise "gives a gear advantage/disadvantage". Not stating you said it, I'm stating that's what it creates, and I strongly disagree with it. If you don't agree or if you do, cool, but what I am stating is Expertise causes Gaps and Segregation that I disagree with.

 

I don't remember addressing this topic at all. My response was merely to point out that you keep saying "all mmo's...." and that's not true, only some mmo's do the WoW/SWTOR thing, many others do not and work just fine.

 

Not true. For example - if Rifle A cost 200,000 credits, and Rifle B cost 1,000 credits, and Rifle B only has 3 less Endurance, buying the cheaper one is not Exploiting the game.

 

And if you like the game, why are you arguing with people that don't like the game? You'll never win the argument, you'll never win the debate, and our goal isn't to convince you of anything. It's pretty clear that less than a 10% margin in the Subjected poll means almost half the voters feel the system is broken... that message isn't for you or any other user.

Firstly I was refering to the one who said he wasn't an arm chair developer but since you brought it up all you did was give a senario and not explain how your system will work to prevent players who only want to PvP or PvE to feel like they need to do both to keep up.

 

Second you mentioned Guild Wars which I will attest I do not know a whole lot about but from what I've heard it's not really a PvE MMO but more focused on PvP. Any other examples or is that the only one you have for your defense?

 

All gear gives an advantage against those with lower stats. With the PvP gear and the different progression rate the better gear can be attained faster hence giving the have nots gear faster so they no longer are in the have not group. To me that's a better option than having the have nots (which will be anyone new to both PvP & PvE IE new 50's or those who are extremely casual) being crushed for a longer period of time. Also I mentioned the difference in quality needs to be larger in PvE so that means even the Intermediate geared players will be crushed by those in Advance gear.

 

The gear thing and different quality of gear is in a lot of MMOs the thing is they didn't have an alternative means of aquiring the gear and it was all a case of if you're not doing the top end PvE content for gear you're gonna be crushed in PvP. Perhaps that's what you really want?

 

The example you gave is not about getting Rifle A for 1000 credits. So they choosing to not buy Rifle A is different from trying to get Rifle A for a different cost. and if you hate the game so much why are you even here? I am here to prevent idiots from causing idiotic changes to the game.

 

You don't need Expertise to achieve that. Just offer the same gear as PvE through the PvP avenue.

 

Besides, here and elsewhere, and through the many channels BioWare uses for feedback, the overwhelming majority of PvPers chose "PvPvE" as a means of open-world PvP. That means that raid-like bosses can be a part of the PvP battles that reward the same gear Ops do, or the same tokens.

 

Then the people that like to do both don't have to grind gear twice. It's simple and effective. Why go the more convoluted route of Expertise? Why risk alienating fresh 50s?

How do you deal with the rate of progression PvPers & PvErs wish for (which is different I might add) and the difference in quality of the tier gear (A larger difference causes people who don't have the very top gear to be dominated longer which is counter productive to what you claim to want) if PvP & PvE reward the same type of gear?

[DarthKhaos]

I'd like to see the individual benefits of +Damage Reduction / +Damage For / +Healing be used more individually.

 

It allows tanks who want tank ... to buy tank gear with effective PvP tanking stats.

 

It allows Healers to buy Healing gear with effective Healing stats.

 

It allows DPS to buy DPS gear with DPS PvP stats

Are you talking about splitting up expertise into 3 stats one for each of the bonuses the one stat currently has?

Interesting concept, not sure how that's gonna play out when 2 people stack +damage. Hell healers are gonna be ***** by anyone stacking +damage because they'll be taking massive damage.

 

The only way I can see this working is by limiting how much of one you can have over the other or it's gonna be painful and tanks would stack so much damage reduction they'd be practically unkillable.

[DarkDruidSS]

I am here to prevent idiots from causing idiotic changes to the game.

 

This is why I am here too.

 

With the current state of the game. SWTOR as it is right now. How do you purpose making SWTOR expertiseless?

 

Keep in mind that the whole point of this debate is to make PvP equal and accessible. So that means your system would have to not only balance out PvP, but make sure that outside sources (PvE) don't have an advantage in PvP.

 

Then once you have that system tell us how you plan to implement it and what areas of the game are impacted and would have to be changed for your idea.

 

Also keep in mind this game has been out 5 over months. We have dead open world pvp zones, 4 warzones and a bunch of dead servers.. no rated pvp, no cross server match making, no server merges announced. We have a ton of unhappy PvPers that just want more content... not radical system changes 5 months after release.

 

So anti-expertise campaigners.... what is this plan? Give details instead of copy X game.. because the time is ticking and if you think you can solve the pvp problem by all means post it. Let BW see it. Maybe you can save SWTOR.

 

Think I am done with this thread unless we get some serious ideas of how to change the game that touches every aspect that would have to be changed and comes to the balance that we are looking for.