Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[Doomsdaycomes]

I completely agree that the fun of PVE is running the content to gain something, which is why I really don't want it to be ruined because of the good PVP gear I have. Even as it is my BM/WH stuff is better than Tionese and Columni in terms of stats and I think that needs to be changed some to make it worth obtaining (I only have a Tionese set because you get the comms and crystals for it no matter what). I think that PVP will get separated into competitive and fun when we get ranked WZs coming out and that's where the PVE group will be able to find an enjoyable detour. I'll admit that I'm not super competitive, but I do play a lot, so I may be biased in that I can do the grind to get gear without a problem. I have 4 toons at 50 right now, but don't feel that I'm not able to do content in PVE or PVP on any of them, even without top gear (my main is the only one with any PVP gear). I'm not topping the charts by any means, but can be competitive and help my team. I just feel that in order to be the best, you should have a combination of skill and effort in what you are doing. In otherwords, I want my PVP to be like my PVE.

 

(I appreciate your attitude and response as well, it helps open my own mind to new ideas.)

 

How funny, I just dinged my 4th 50 yesterday. So, I was just curious how someone would respond to the model I've been expanding upon to combine PvP and PvE as an interchangeable progression.

 

Pasted from another post (unquoted so can be requoted):

 

Where does that leave some one like me, who is both a PvE'er and a PvP'er. Doing "my" content is doing any endgame content, but my progression is constantly in 2-directions, making my over all progression twice as long for trying to enjoy the game I'm paying for. (No, I don't think I should have it handed to me, but why should I work twice as hard to enjoy my game as someone who finds enjoyment in only half of the game? We're still paying the same amount, their just only using half the content.)

 

Balancing PvE and PvP progression would be "hard" but it's not impossible. For instance:

 

> Put PvP and PvE tier sets to equal values.

 

> Place a PvP buff upon entering PvP combat (or wz's) that grants the player +X expertise, X being a flat rate for all. (Pvp balance tool vs. PvE)

 

> Set an expected win rate for warzones.

 

> Find an acceptable average of Wz comms per minute.

 

> Change Boss drops from useable gear to tokens/comms like wz's.

 

> Set the amount of comms dropped from a boss equal to the expected time it takes to clear up to and beat them multiplied by the average Wz comms per minute established above.

 

> Set the price of each tier of gear to the desired progression rate, and require each new teir cost (Piece of Tier below it + comms.)

 

This isn't an exact model, but it's a start. Excellent players of course will beat wzs/clear bosses faster than expected, and win their comms faster. That's the reward for being better.

 

A PvE player can't be 'carried' by a guild, as comms droppped go to all equally, and they require the piece of gear before buying one from a higher tier.

 

If it becomes an issue that guilds/groups can clear content -excessively faster- then the expected clear times, additional measures like the ones below could be added:

 

Set Required Mob Kills for each boss. If a group fails to kill that many mobs, the boss begins the encounter enraged. (Designed to stop guilds from running a person and skipping most of the trash).

-or-

Set a "sweet" spot in each boss, that if they are killed in that time frame the best comm rewards are dropped. If a group kills a boss significantly early, less comms are dropped as the content is clearly too easy for them

[Jadescythe]

How funny, I just dinged my 4th 50 yesterday. So, I was just curious how someone would respond to the model I've been expanding upon to combine PvP and PvE as an interchangeable progression.

 

Pasted from another post (unquoted so can be requoted):

 

Where does that leave some one like me, who is both a PvE'er and a PvP'er. Doing "my" content is doing any endgame content, but my progression is constantly in 2-directions, making my over all progression twice as long for trying to enjoy the game I'm paying for. (No, I don't think I should have it handed to me, but why should I work twice as hard to enjoy my game as someone who finds enjoyment in only half of the game? We're still paying the same amount, their just only using half the content.)

 

Balancing PvE and PvP progression would be "hard" but it's not impossible. For instance:

 

> Put PvP and PvE tier sets to equal values.

 

> Place a PvP buff upon entering PvP combat (or wz's) that grants the player +X expertise, X being a flat rate for all. (Pvp balance tool vs. PvE)

 

> Set an expected win rate for warzones.

 

> Find an acceptable average of Wz comms per minute.

 

> Change Boss drops from useable gear to tokens/comms like wz's.

 

> Set the amount of comms dropped from a boss equal to the expected time it takes to clear up to and beat them multiplied by the average Wz comms per minute established above.

 

> Set the price of each tier of gear to the desired progression rate, and require each new teir cost (Piece of Tier below it + comms.)

 

This isn't an exact model, but it's a start. Excellent players of course will beat wzs/clear bosses faster than expected, and win their comms faster. That's the reward for being better.

 

A PvE player can't be 'carried' by a guild, as comms droppped go to all equally, and they require the piece of gear before buying one from a higher tier.

 

If it becomes an issue that guilds/groups can clear content -excessively faster- then the expected clear times, additional measures like the ones below could be added:

 

Set Required Mob Kills for each boss. If a group fails to kill that many mobs, the boss begins the encounter enraged. (Designed to stop guilds from running a person and skipping most of the trash).

-or-

Set a "sweet" spot in each boss, that if they are killed in that time frame the best comm rewards are dropped. If a group kills a boss significantly early, less comms are dropped as the content is clearly too easy for them

 

I think that this system would work exremely well in balancing things out between the two types of play and I would not be totally opposed to it (it would certainly benefit someone like me ). I suppose where we differ in opinion stems from the way we perceive the gear grind. This system seems to be from the viewpoint that we have to work harder to do both PVE and PVP. The way I see it is that I get to do twice as much as someone who only does one over both. This is the same way I feel about alts. I enjoy the leveling process and have no problem rolling multiple toons to have a different experience (I'm at legacy 30 right now). If I was getting gear for both PVE and PVP at the same time then I wouldn't feel like I was getting my moneys worth from the game because I wouldn't have to progress by doing both.

 

That being said, this is by far the best recommendation I have seen so far in finding a way to merge PVE and PVP gear together, although I think the balancing act on comms would probably be harder than you think. They have a pretty tough time settling on a comm system for just WZs so far since it changes pretty much every patch.

[DarthKhaos]

I never said it was balanced, i mearly stated that expertise is not in 10-49 PvP. and if expertise is so important to the PvP game mechanices, why is it not in that bracket as well? I never once mentioned that pre-50 PvP is balanced.

PSST. It is. You just don't realize it. I had 150 Expertise before I hit level 50 pre 1.2 and if you think I was the only one. ~chuckle~ Then there's the fact that there's HUGE gaps in PvP gear. Only thing between 10 & 20 is a main hand weapon. Only thing between 20 & 40 is 2 main hand weapons. Only thing between 40 & 50 is one main hand weapon. Know what that means? As a pure PvPer you are forced to PvE or find a crafter to have competitive gear to PvE untill you hit in the level 40's and do what I did to get expertise. What happened to if making the choice to PvP. I didn't want to PvE. What you're advocating will have that in end game also.

 

PASS.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I think that this system would work exremely well in balancing things out between the two types of play and I would not be totally opposed to it (it would certainly benefit someone like me ). I suppose where we differ in opinion stems from the way we perceive the gear grind. This system seems to be from the viewpoint that we have to work harder to do both PVE and PVP. The way I see it is that I get to do twice as much as someone who only does one over both. This is the same way I feel about alts. I enjoy the leveling process and have no problem rolling multiple toons to have a different experience (I'm at legacy 30 right now). If I was getting gear for both PVE and PVP at the same time then I wouldn't feel like I was getting my moneys worth from the game because I wouldn't have to progress by doing both.

 

That being said, this is by far the best recommendation I have seen so far in finding a way to merge PVE and PVP gear together, although I think the balancing act on comms would probably be harder than you think. They have a pretty tough time settling on a comm system for just WZs so far since it changes pretty much every patch.

 

Someone in another thread pointed out I forgot the:

 

>Remove HM/OP lock outs. PvP and PvE can then grind non-stop if they wish, but their average comms per minute remains roughly the same.

 

I will admit it isn't "simple" math and could potentially be above my level of mathematics to do, though I unfortunately can not try without hard metrics. (Was gonna try opinion polls... but unless I can manage 1000+ people to give me their expected win rates without arguing, my sample error is like +/- 50)

[DarkHelsing]

This is how I feel. One game one playerbase.

 

Do we really think theres enough players in the playerbase to split it down the middle?

 

I basically get to 50 and retire now, its simply too much work to gear up a character two ways. Id rather just enjoy the 10-49 bracket for what little time i have left (4x50, 2xhigh 40s, 2xmid 30s...) Once I hit 50 its like a death sentence for enjoyment. It becomes pure work. I already have a job, I dont need 2 more.

 

I would certainly be more inclined to play characters and enjoy them longer if there wasnt a huge gear wall blocking my every turn.

+1

This is a big point. Leveling 1-49 is fun, rewarding, and full of choice. Hit level 50 and that all changes. The game proves, PROVES, that things like Expertise are not needed; the game proves it for 39 levels! The game proves, PROVES, that things like just being able to mod your own gear is fun for players, freedom to jump between any event without worry of gear gaps, and freedom to progress how ever the player sees fit; the game proves that for 48 levels!

 

I personally think Bioware spent all their time on the leveling system, and they have yet to dedicate anywhere near the time on their end game system... that's why Legacy rewards are rewarded to players that go back and play 1-49 again on other classes, and to raise money for unlocks.

[Khoraji]

+1

This is a big point. Leveling 1-49 is fun, rewarding, and full of choice. Hit level 50 and that all changes. The game proves, PROVES, that things like Expertise are not needed; the game proves it for 39 levels! The game proves, PROVES, that things like just being able to mod your own gear is fun for players, freedom to jump between any event without worry of gear gaps, and freedom to progress how ever the player sees fit; the game proves that for 48 levels!

 

I personally think Bioware spent all their time on the leveling system, and they have yet to dedicate anywhere near the time on their end game system... that's why Legacy rewards are rewarded to players that go back and play 1-49 again on other classes, and to raise money for unlocks.

 

It is only a death sentence for a week or two until they can get BM gear.

 

Why should a character that just hit 50 have the same rewards as a character that has been pvping for months?

[DarkHelsing]

needed. I don't want to have to raid to be able to pvp.

 

Why does this keep popping up? Who in this thread has said this? Or eluded to this?

 

This has popped up so many times, I wonder what the toll would be if I removed all the "neededs" that have stated this. At least minus 20 votes.

 

 

People, what on earth would make you think that removing Expertise would force you to raid to be able to PvP? Can someone/anyone explain that rational behind that insanity of thinking?

[Jadescythe]

Someone in another thread pointed out I forgot the:

 

>Remove HM/OP lock outs. PvP and PvE can then grind non-stop if they wish, but their average comms per minute remains roughly the same.

 

I will admit it isn't "simple" math and could potentially be above my level of mathematics to do, though I unfortunately can not try without hard metrics. (Was gonna try opinion polls... but unless I can manage 1000+ people to give me their expected win rates without arguing, my sample error is like +/- 50)

 

I think the toughest part is going to be that the average wins/average TTK on bosses isn't going to be hit by the majority of players. I would say that the average PUG group in ops or WZs is probably significantly lower than average and the guild ones are probably significantly higher than the average. Although this is already a problem with the current system now anyway in PVP since you compete against other players. BW has all the tools to get the numbers on this stuff though, it just depends on if this is something that interests them or not. I suppose I could do without expertise gear as a driver for endgame PVP if they have ranked WZs, then you have something to play for every match. It's what keeps other types of multiplayer games (mostly FPS) competitive and fun. I still think that the PVP exclusive people want their gear for themselves and no one else and I don't have a problem with that. There should be a reward for being a PVP specialist above just different looking gear (same for PVE of course).

[DarkHelsing]

I'm not sure I can agree with making good players worse simply to make bad players better.

 

If that was true, you would be against Expertise and against the Gear Gap created by it.

 

 

Good Players are made worse when they encounter Bad Players with more Expertise.

[Jadescythe]

Why does this keep popping up? Who in this thread has said this? Or eluded to this?

 

This has popped up so many times, I wonder what the toll would be if I removed all the "neededs" that have stated this. At least minus 20 votes.

 

 

People, what on earth would make you think that removing Expertise would force you to raid to be able to PvP? Can someone/anyone explain that rational behind that insanity of thinking?

 

The fear for most PVPers is that if a system like expertise which separates PVP and PVE gear that PVE will have to be done in order to get the best gear. This was in fact the case prior to 1.2 where the top PVPers were in rakata gear, not just PVP gear. Also, due to balancing issues on rate of gear drops, it may be easier to get gear one way over another which would make leveling one way unnecessary since gear would work for both. It's a nice idea to think that everything can be nice and balanced, but is highly impractical when it comes to implementation. Therefore PVP takes an extra 50 hours to fully gear as opposed to PVE or the other way around. This way, the different parts of the game and gear are separate and easily controllable.

[DarkDruidSS]

Why does this keep popping up? Who in this thread has said this? Or eluded to this?

 

This has popped up so many times, I wonder what the toll would be if I removed all the "neededs" that have stated this. At least minus 20 votes.

 

 

People, what on earth would make you think that removing Expertise would force you to raid to be able to PvP? Can someone/anyone explain that rational behind that insanity of thinking?

 

Um... if you remove expertise then the best gear set is then PvE Campaign augemented Ops gear. Meaning you would have to raid to compete on an even scale. Just like you had to do in any game prior to WoW that had PvP. People in full raid sets rocked PvP. That is why PvP eventually got it's own gear set and then a separate stat to balance out damage/healing. PvPer's shouldn't have to PvE to compete if that isn't what they are playing for.

 

If this wasn't the case then I would expect you could raid NM Explosive Conflict in War Hero augemented gear... which as far as I have heard is not the case.

 

Here is a thread talking about just that.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=440617

Edited May 2, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[JeramieCrowe]

Um... if you remove expertise then the best gear set is then PvE Campaign augemented Ops gear. Meaning you would have to raid to compete on an even scale. Just like you had to do in any game prior to WoW that had PvP. People in full raid sets rocked PvP. That is why PvP eventually got it's own gear set and then a separate stat to balance out damage/healing. PvPer's shouldn't have to PvE to compete if that isn't what they are playing for.

 

If this wasn't the case then I would expect you could raid NM Explosive Conflict in War Hero augemented gear... which as far as I have heard is not the case.

 

Here is a thread talking about just that.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=440617

 

Or said gear can alternatively be offered by a PvP avenue of similar effort. Same gear, two different ways of obtaining it.

[DarkHelsing]

It is only a death sentence for a week or two until they can get BM gear.

 

Why should a character that just hit 50 have the same rewards as a character that has been pvping for months?

 

Why does the reward have to be a Gear Advantage? That being stated, I do feel you should be rewarded for the time spent, and it should be a mix of gear and other things. But have +30 Stat per set of gear, is not a game breaking gap; having +28 Endurance per set of gear is not a game breaking gap. Having +22% to damage and +18% to damage reduction is a giant game breaking gap.

 

Example;

Pre-Patch 1.2, when we were testing Expertise back then, 1% difference in Expertise meant life or death. If Player A) fought Player B), and Player A) had 12% Expertise and Player B) had 11% Expertise - that 1% meant Player B) would never win. How can 1% have that much of a difference? Because it's an exponential 1%, not a straightforward 1%. When a single piece of gear only pushed up your Expertise by 0.2%, that means 1% is a x5 Gear Advantage. So, in order to get that 1% boost, you need 5 pieces of gear that have better stats across the board. So an Expertise difference of 1% is also x5 pieces of more Endurance, x5 pieces of more Main Stat, x5 pieces of more Power, and x5 pieces of more Surge, then add that all up and THEN boost it all by 1% Expertise.

[DarkDruidSS]

Or said gear can alternatively be offered by a PvP avenue of similar effort. Same gear, two different ways of obtaining it.

 

I don't want equal to PvE gear though. The problem with PvE is that the longer a game is out then mobs and players scale at dfferent rates. So PvE gear is designed to battle PvE mobs which have much higher stats than players and they keep scaling up to give PvE'ers competition. So PvE gear in PvP without expertise will eventually lead to PvE'ers being dominate like it was prior to WoW.

 

If a mob had the same stats as a player then then PvE'ers would be upset that their content is now trivially easy.

 

PvE and PvP always scales at different rates. That is why the pvp stat was introduced so that they could normalize pvp damage/healing.

[DarkHelsing]

The fear for most PVPers is that if a system like expertise which separates PVP and PVE gear that PVE will have to be done in order to get the best gear. This was in fact the case prior to 1.2 where the top PVPers were in rakata gear, not just PVP gear. Also, due to balancing issues on rate of gear drops, it may be easier to get gear one way over another which would make leveling one way unnecessary since gear would work for both. It's a nice idea to think that everything can be nice and balanced, but is highly impractical when it comes to implementation. Therefore PVP takes an extra 50 hours to fully gear as opposed to PVE or the other way around. This way, the different parts of the game and gear are separate and easily controllable.

 

So it's a fear that WoW created? Interesting.

 

The Pre 1.2 Rakata/BM mix was fail. It was tested extensively and lost against fully geared BM. It worked great against BM/Champ mix, but it better have because it was Top Tier+Top Tier versus 2nd Tier+Top Tier. But because it worked great against Champ/BM mix, players thought it was better. 12.35% was the average full BM Expertise number, if that was pitted against anything other than Equal %, it was one sided really bad.

[DarkHelsing]

Or said gear can alternatively be offered by a PvP avenue of similar effort. Same gear, two different ways of obtaining it.

 

+ 1 Billion for the people that can seem to read longer posts.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[JeramieCrowe]

I don't want equal to PvE gear though. The problem with PvE is that the longer a game is out then mobs and players scale at dfferent rates. So PvE gear is designed to battle PvE mobs which have much higher stats than players and they keep scaling up to give PvE'ers competition. So PvE gear in PvP without expertise will eventually lead to PvE'ers being dominate like it was prior to WoW.

 

If a mob had the same stats as a player then then PvE'ers would be upset that their content is now trivially easy.

 

PvE and PvP always scales at different rates. That is why the pvp stat was introduced so that they could normalize pvp damage/healing.

 

And expertise will effectively block out new PvPers. With all the complaining of not enough PvPers, I'm sure we don't want that, either.

 

The best solution, imho, is for PvP to be stat-less, but what can you do?

[DarkDruidSS]

Example;

Pre-Patch 1.2, when we were testing Expertise back then, 1% difference in Expertise meant life or death. If Player A) fought Player B), and Player A) had 12% Expertise and Player B) had 11% Expertise - that 1% meant Player B) would never win. How can 1% have that much of a difference? Because it's an exponential 1%, not a straightforward 1%. When a single piece of gear only pushed up your Expertise by 0.2%, that means 1% is a x5 Gear Advantage. So, in order to get that 1% boost, you need 5 pieces of gear that have better stats across the board. So an Expertise difference of 1% is also x5 pieces of more Endurance, x5 pieces of more Main Stat, x5 pieces of more Power, and x5 pieces of more Surge, then add that all up and THEN boost it all by 1% Expertise.

 

You're example is flawed. Going by your example then my assassin wearing recruit pvp gear shouldn't be able to beat players in battle master gear due to expertise alone, yet I can and do... you are missing the skill factor among many other factors like class vs class in your example. 1% expertise is not life or death... not even close.

[JeramieCrowe]

You're example is flawed. Going by your example then my assassin wearing recruit pvp gear shouldn't be able to beat players in battle master gear due to expertise alone, yet I can and do... you are missing the skill factor among many other factors like class vs class in your example. 1% expertise is not life or death... not even close.

 

Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2.

 

If it's that noticeable when it's brand new, it will only get worse from here on out. Less and less people will try PvP as a result.

 

In an article today, Daniel Erickson made an interesting observation:

 

The ease of getting in and playing the Warzones combined with their fun design gave us the highest PvP participation of any modern triple-A MMO.

 

Expertise is directly sabotaging that dynamic, and it's perplexing why they would do it...

Edited May 2, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[DarkDruidSS]

And expertise will effectively block out new PvPers. With all the complaining of not enough PvPers, I'm sure we don't want that, either.

 

The best solution, imho, is for PvP to be stat-less, but what can you do?

 

That's when you will eventually have to make a PvP kiddy pool for fresh 50s to play in and make the people at a certain gear set play in the ocean with others like them. That is something that Rift has been trying to tackle. There will eventually have to be another bracket between 10-49 and top end pvp gear.

 

Cross Server match making and server merges will go a long way to ensuring there are enough players for each bracket.

[Doomsdaycomes]

+ 1 Billion for the people that can seem to read longer posts.

 

<.< Read?! Never!!! I demand to work for my ability to read, so please begin to place all posts in code so when I accomplish this reading I feel better about myself!

 

j/k :-)

[DarkHelsing]

I don't want equal to PvE gear though. The problem with PvE is that the longer a game is out then mobs and players scale at dfferent rates. So PvE gear is designed to battle PvE mobs which have much higher stats than players and they keep scaling up to give PvE'ers competition. So PvE gear in PvP without expertise will eventually lead to PvE'ers being dominate like it was prior to WoW.

 

If a mob had the same stats as a player then then PvE'ers would be upset that their content is now trivially easy.

 

PvE and PvP always scales at different rates. That is why the pvp stat was introduced so that they could normalize pvp damage/healing.

 

Back to WoW again. WoW screwed this up, hardcore, now people fear it can't be done right because the ever so awesome WoW couldn't get it right. Boggles my mind. Anyway, just because WoW screwed it up doesn't mean that every game that follows WoW needs to screw it up too.

[DarkHelsing]

You're example is flawed. Going by your example then my assassin wearing recruit pvp gear shouldn't be able to beat players in battle master gear due to expertise alone, yet I can and do... you are missing the skill factor among many other factors like class vs class in your example. 1% expertise is not life or death... not even close.

 

I didn't know Recruit gear was in Pre-Patch 1.2.... my example started by stating Pre Patch 1.2... sooo... yeah, I don't know what to tell ya.

[DarkDruidSS]

If it's that noticeable when it's brand new, it will only get worse from here on out. Less and less people will try PvP as a result.

 

In an article today, Daniel Erickson made an interesting observation:

 

 

 

Expertise is directly sabotaging that dynamic, and it's perplexing why they would do it...

 

Except you are missing they key reason why 1.2 was implemented. Prior to 1.2 there was no baseline for entering pvp. It was your low pve crap gear vs high end pvp gear. That didn't fly so they created recruit pvp gear which has significant expertise rating to it and it's enough where player skill or class can determine the outcome of the fight.