Remove the side speeders on Alderaan Warzone

[Schwarzwald]

This map is a joke and it is poorly designed as voidstar.

 

1 person can still stop an entire team from assaulting over and over again and the attacking team is ALWAYS going to be at a disadvantage in any situation in that map.

[Metalmac]

This map is a joke and it is poorly designed as voidstar.

 

1 person can still stop an entire team from assaulting over and over again and the attacking team is ALWAYS going to be at a disadvantage in any situation in that map.

 

NO LEARN TO PLAY.

We won today and they out geared us yet we still took the node from them.

CLUE:

STAND ON STAIRS IN FRONT OF SPEEDER DROP OFF AND SPAM CC AND AOE DAMAGE!

 

Like I said learn to play PVP.

[Darth_Philar]

This map is a joke and it is poorly designed as voidstar.

 

1 person can still stop an entire team from assaulting over and over again and the attacking team is ALWAYS going to be at a disadvantage in any situation in that map.

 

I capped a node by myself against a lone enemy defender. It was really easy.

 

I stunned him, he used his CC Breaker, then I mezzed him and capped the point while he hopelessly spun around in circles.

 

I laughed pretty hard.

[yukirshiro]

Getting back from death takes longer than the time it takes to cap. So basically you are wrong about everything.

[SWImara]

Alderaan is probably my #1 or #2 favorite PvP map at the moment. Please if some random dev is searching for the holy grail solution to SWTOR's PvP problems, ignore this thread. The side speeders are fine, undergeared and all I've managed to ninja all sorts of caps in Alderaan. Work with your team.

[Emencie]

Getting back from death takes longer than the time it takes to cap. So basically you are wrong about everything.

Except that it is easier to defend than attack. Which is pretty wrong for capture and hold maps. It should always be harder to defend than attack. I cannot remember a capture and hold map in any game I've ever played where this wasn't true. Don't know why BW thinks this should be reversed. in fact I feel the speeders should be the exact opposite. If you don't have the node. They spawn for each side. would definitely make for a more dynamic match.

[yukirshiro]

Except that it is easier to defend than attack.

 

This is true but I'm not sure it's such a big problem.

 

The map is set up different from a lot of capture points in that the side points are extremely far away from eachother. Without mounts, it takes an age to get from one to the other.

 

All you need to do is hit the other side with respawns.

[Emencie]

This is true but I'm not sure it's such a big problem.

 

The map is set up different from a lot of capture points in that the side points are extremely far away from eachother. Without mounts, it takes an age to get from one to the other.

 

All you need to do is hit the other side with respawns.

 

It takes a lot of coordination, luck or downright dominating your opponents to cap the side nodes (or stupidity on their part) simply put 1 person can keep an entire team from capping if you are fighting 4v8 (witch you cant because someone has to stay at the 1 node you have) the odds are that you are not dropping their entire group at once. And if you are not, the constant reinforcements can and often do drive you back and prevent you from capping. Its by no means impossible but its an uphill battle when you are already losing.

 

This is why so many give up once they are 2 capped, and so many matches are 2 caps where the loosing team consistently tries and fails to take a node. Its just easier to defend than to attack. The reason Capture and hold maps are generally the opposite is because it keeps the game flowing and dynamic there is no sense in the logic of whoever gets 2 first wins! why have the rest of the 15 minute game then? This is generally achieved in FPS games through distance or spawn delays. in WoW it was achieved by spreading forces very thin (more nodes) as well as distance. Here they try the distance thing... but the problem is that the distance is greater for the attacking team than the defending team because of the speeders.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Emencie

[ComeAndSee]

Side speeders aren't too bad. They take twice as long now.

 

Just have to time killing everyone simultaneously.

[GaryCartel]

This map is a joke and it is poorly designed as voidstar.

 

1 person can still stop an entire team from assaulting over and over again and the attacking team is ALWAYS going to be at a disadvantage in any situation in that map.

 

1 person? Really? Please don't exaggerate.

 

Too many people exaggerate and blow things out of proportion.

Edited April 24, 2012 by GaryCartel

[exphryl]

I capped a node by myself against a lone enemy defender. It was really easy.

 

I stunned him, he used his CC Breaker, then I mezzed him and capped the point while he hopelessly spun around in circles.

 

I laughed pretty hard.

 

I just go in and kill the lone defender, sometimes 2v1 (But I try to time it so they both die relatively at the same time. Easier when one is guarded).

[ezy_ryder]

Getting back from death takes longer than the time it takes to cap. So basically you are wrong about everything.

 

Not if the defender knows what they're doing and pulls the person off the node before dieing, making the attacker have to run all the way back to the node and the defender is back on his speeder and interrupting the capture when it's not even halfway through.

[GaryCartel]

Not if the defender knows what they're doing and pulls the person off the node before dieing, making the attacker have to run all the way back to the node and the defender is back on his speeder and interrupting the capture when it's not even halfway through.

 

Not if the defender doesn't have pull.

[Darth_Philar]

I just go in and kill the lone defender, sometimes 2v1 (But I try to time it so they both die relatively at the same time. Easier when one is guarded).

 

That's hard to do as a Sorcerer healer lol

[Emencie]

Not if the defender doesn't have pull.

You don't need a pull... just leave the node. If they chase you run to the Heal buff. If they don't chase you run back to interrupt them then run away again. It's really not that hard at all. though if you have sprint/stealth/pulls then even easier. hey... that's half of the classes in the game! Like I said only problem with Civil war is a competent team holding a side node will never lose it because defending is so easy.

[GaryCartel]

You don't need a pull... just leave the node. If they chase you run to the Heal buff. If they don't chase you run back to interrupt them then run away again. It's really not that hard at all. though if you have sprint/stealth/pulls then even easier. hey... that's half of the classes in the game! Like I said only problem with Civil war is a competent team holding a side node will never lose it because defending is so easy.

 

You are right about defending. It is easier.. and it should be. If you can cap it, then you should have the upper hand. If your teams had some co-ordination and capped to turrets from the start, you would be set.

Edited April 24, 2012 by GaryCartel

[ShadowOfVey]

I think civil war should just be removed, novare coast is just flat out better in every way while maintaining the similar game style.

 

Maybe next they can come up with a less lame version of voidstar too.

[Emencie]

You are right about defending. It is easier.. and it should be. If you can cap it then then you should have the upper hand. If your teams had some co-ordination and capped to turrets from the start, you would be set.

 

Thats literally the exact opposite of nearly every other cap and hold game. (I say nearly because its possible there is another that is the same though I've yet to see it.)

 

If whoever caps 2 first should have the upper hand, and whoever caps 2 first wins 90% (made up number) of the time... Why even have the other 15 minutes of the game?

 

It's borring for both sides.

 

You know what My team does in Civil war when we 2 cap? If we have mid and 1 side 2 on side 6 in mid Fight off attacks till 15 min is up. If we have sides. 4 on each side. Fight off attackers for 15 min.

 

To use a WoW example (since many are familiar with it) in AB teams would set up "swing" groups to move between nodes. Stealth groups to ninja nodes behind enemy lines and set up Defense groups to hold particular important nodes when you need to quickly take another.

 

This difference in tactics is because in SWTOR you don't have to work to win once you have 2 nodes. Where in the other example when you had the upper hand you expect to lose it somewhere sometime, and are actively looking to keep the lead once that happens. which could result in some epic games. This isn't limited to WoW but like I said nearly every cap and hold (King of the hill) type match setup.

[Metalmac]

Except that it is easier to defend than attack. Which is pretty wrong for capture and hold maps. It should always be harder to defend than attack. I cannot remember a capture and hold map in any game I've ever played where this wasn't true. Don't know why BW thinks this should be reversed. in fact I feel the speeders should be the exact opposite. If you don't have the node. They spawn for each side. would definitely make for a more dynamic match.

 

Look if you take out the speeder here is the results:

1. Just like ILUM you get a zerg fest at the only drop off point.

2. Put 4 players on both side of speeder drop off and you control all 3 nodes the whole game.

3. The game would be a boring one side only game every single match.

4. This is exactly what happened on the test servers.

 

The game is fine the way it is so learn to play.

[GaryCartel]

 

To use a WoW example (since many are familiar with it) in AB teams would set up "swing" groups to move between nodes. Stealth groups to ninja nodes behind enemy lines and set up Defense groups to hold particular important nodes when you need to quickly take another.

 

This difference in tactics is because in SWTOR you don't have to work to win once you have 2 nodes. Where in the other example when you had the upper hand you expect to lose it somewhere sometime, and are actively looking to keep the lead once that happens. which could result in some epic games. This isn't limited to WoW but like I said nearly every cap and hold (King of the hill) type match setup.

 

AB is a terrible example. Those games where people don't defend and run around from point to point not defending. Those were the worst games.

 

Also, You do have to work to win. Maybe you are not defending, but the rest of your team is carrying you "defending" turrets. If you don't have to work to win, you are probably in a premade going against pugs. Wait until rated warzones and tell me that you don't need to work to win when you have 2 nodes.

 

Also, the losing team should have to try harder to win. This isn't Mario Kart were if you are losing your kart goes faster than the leader.

[Emencie]

Look if you take out the speeder here is the results:

1. Just like ILUM you get a zerg fest at the only drop off point.

2. Put 4 players on both side of speeder drop off and you control all 3 nodes the whole game.

3. The game would be a boring one side only game every single match.

4. This is exactly what happened on the test servers.

 

The game is fine the way it is so learn to play.

I didn't say takes the speeders out. I said reverse them. The team that doesn't hold the side nodes get the speeders going directly to the nodes. Maybe make the middle speeder faster. Making 1 node easy to defend but 2 of them very hard to control thus making the game more dynamic. Nodes change hands easier and the team with the best tactics win. Rather than the team that gets the nodes first. As someone else said Nova is just so much better than Civil war because it seems BW learned how Cap/hold maps are supposed to work. but Civil war is a yawn fest. I'm not sure what I need to learn exactly though. I mean the map cannot get any easier. playing against other premades generally comes down to taking a node each then fighting over the last one for the entire match. because once one team gets 2. Its pretty much game over. Its extremely rare for a good team to lose a side node. As is such when playing competent teams first to get 2 nodes generally wins. If the team cant hold a side node then they don't ever get 2 to begin with In my experience so it doesn't matter at all.

Also, You do have to work to win. Maybe you are not defending, but the rest of your team is carrying you "defending" turrets. If you don't have to work to win, you are probably in a premade going against pugs. Wait until rated warzones and tell me that you don't need to work to win when you have 2 nodes.

 

Also, the losing team should have to try harder to win. This isn't Mario Kart were if you are losing your kart goes faster than the leader.

I don't find it "working" I look at that as rolling the competition. And I use the word competition loosely. once you have 2 nodes especially if they are side nodes. You have infinite and faster reinforcements. While the enemy has significantly less. I don't know what games you play that make winning easier just because you are already winning but sounds like they would get pretty boring after a very short time. Its not like in huttball if you are winning every goal counts for two. that's just silly.

________________________

EDIT

 

Also yes I do often roll in a premade group. I'm not sure what that has to do with my point though. The mechanics of the warzone are the same no matter if you Premake or pug.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Emencie

[Daiyukie]

Except that it is easier to defend than attack. Which is pretty wrong for capture and hold maps. It should always be harder to defend than attack. I cannot remember a capture and hold map in any game I've ever played where this wasn't true. Don't know why BW thinks this should be reversed. in fact I feel the speeders should be the exact opposite. If you don't have the node. They spawn for each side. would definitely make for a more dynamic match.

 

Um, what? Ever heard of defender's advantage? I don't want another Ilum objective-flipping pointless WZ, thanks

[Stradoo]

This map is a joke and it is poorly designed as voidstar.

 

1 person can still stop an entire team from assaulting over and over again and the attacking team is ALWAYS going to be at a disadvantage in any situation in that map.

 

Two words: bye bye

 

/waves

[Emencie]

Um, what? Ever heard of defender's advantage? I don't want another Ilum objective-flipping pointless WZ, thanks

 

You are confusing defender's advantage with defender domination or invincibility, friend. Defender's advantage doesn't mean that defending has a complete advantage over attacking. Instead it means that there is a clear advantage to defending since there is a clear advantage to attacking. This is a good part of every game especially strategy games. But Civil war has it completely; the defenders advantage is so absolute that when in a position to defend most teams do not attack at all.

 

Generally the main defenders advantage in Cap and hold maps, is forcing the attackers to attack a particular node. By stacking your team heavy in certain areas you know where the attack will come (your weaker node)and can take steps to quickly reinforce and repel it or let the attackers win as you slip by take another location. There are many ways defenders advantage can play out. None of witch should involve the defender being invincible simply because they are defending.

[Astarica]

If you can take a defended side turret the other team is simply not very good.

 

The winning side should have 2 people by the side turret. They can afford to pull an extra person there since they're winning and this eliminate 99.9% of all the theorycraft ways of taking a node. Even 2on2 with an absolute matchup advantage you'll have a hard time killing both of those guys at exactly the same time so that the first guy that died couldn't get back on time to stop the cap.

 

The only way to take a side turret is hope the other side is stupid and defend it with 1 guy. You might as well hope one of their defender suddenly blows up from the Rakghoul plague.