PvP and PvE Armor Design: Why Bioware's Design Aesthetic is Fundamentally Flawed

[Obie_Wan]

Here's one thing I don't get about BioWare Austin.

 

If they think their level 50 end game armour is so aesthetically pleasing and a proud work of art, then how come they didn't use said armour for their latest website revamp?

 

Why did they choose to use stuff like the Jedi Battlelord armour gear set (with hood down, no less. seriously, way to mislead new customers over what is actually aesthetically possible in-game at the moment) instead of these "great" new armour sets?

 

 

 

They talk about how they want to let players be able to freely choose what appearance they want in-game. Yet the new crafting system still forces people to jump through RNG hoops just to find schematics, and hope for crits to get augments. There's still no Jedi Battlelord set schematics either. Then comes the armour bonuses, which can only be obtained from post 1.2 items, for a PVPer that means I have to grind for War Hero stuff just to get the mods needed. It also gets really expensive for a casual player to pull said mods out.

 

Is getting what you want to look, possible? Yes. Will it be practical? For most people, no since they can't get augmented slots so there will always be an issue of Min/Max, an issue that they really shouldn't have introduced by making things so convoluted. It's going to cost a lot of money, time, and effort.

 

So is it straight forward and easy to look like how you want in SWTOR? No, a resounding no.

I'm not sure why they made something as basic as appearance customization be so grindy and convoluted, especially considering one of their initial goals was supposedly to take the grind out and make things easily accessible.

[Opass]

Great post and I totally agree. I got my first level 50 a few weeks ago and hadn't gotten the ability to purchase champion gear, then 1.2 came out and I decided to buy the recruit armor for my Sentinel. I could help but start laughing the second I saw the helmet which was by far the worst piece despite the whole set not looking that great. I though okay, this is the starter set I'm sure war hero will look amazing, *ctrl-left click* Oh my god, are you serious?!

 

 

It's weird too because I've played KotOR 1 & 2, Dragon Age and Mass Effect 1 & 2 and the wearables in all those games look great in comparison to their respective universes. These over the top designs definitely make the game feel unbelievable, which is shocking since so many other aspects of the game are amazing. I mean, ship and planet details just make you say, "wow!"

 

I would love to see a back to basics approach for the armor in this game, I've always been happy to have a robe for my jedi/sith in every force sensitive based game and the armor designs from the movies for Troopers/BH's/Agents/Smugglers looks fine too. If the WoW and other games like it crowd doesn't like it they can just go back to those games!

[J-Slice]

The OP nailed it. The designs would look very good and creative - IN ANOTHER GAME OR ANOTHER SCENARIO. The gear doesn't look bad because they look bad by nature, we dislike them because they DON'T LOOK LIKE STAR WARS GEAR. . The OP also nails it on the fact that BW gets it right on the path from 1-49. Characters look great from 1-49. Then, hit 50 and the gear looks like it's from another MMO. If BW wants some inspiration to how characters should look, they should look at some NPC designs. Some NPC's have gear that truly looks great and fits the description of their characters.

 

The one main reason that BW, I think, like the OP does, designed such "overreaching" gear is because they don't want level 50 gear to look "boring" and "regular" like the 1-49 or NPC gear. They want to distinguish level 50 from 1-49 gear. But I don't think they realize, we want to look our class and our faction. Not outrageously colorful with outfits that blatantly speak out "hey, we're level 50". Other players can just click on us for that.

[Hxxr]

The exact terminology used by George Lucas--and whatever you feel about him, he is undeniably where the buck stops in regards to Star Wars-- was the "used future".

 

I'm not a Star Wars fan, but I like this about the movies and some of the older and newer prieces follow this logic already. I play a bounty Hunter, a class for which this is most appearant and while all of the tiered sets look distasteful I really think the War Hero PvP Helmet is very well done for the class.

As are the Bounty Hunter War Hero Gloves if used for Juggernauts. ;>

 

My Orange Armor Pieces all have chipped paint on them, my ship looks like the paint job was done a thousand years ago and my blasters have a very simplified and utilitarian design - all I could want for my main character is a greater variety in colors ... eg the black-red chest piece, Mercenary Chestguard in different colors etc.

 

Other classes, like the agent have great armor pieces as well, but most of them arn't craftable ... Assassins are a lot more fun with pants imho and Sith Warriors haven't got enough options without capes and little choice when it comes to boots (the black ones from the Legacy vendor are pretty neat) but otherwise fine imho ... some ragged capes like Inquisitors have for T1 PvP and T2 maybe.

 

I don't know about the Republic, but Agents for example should look less 'used' than other classes ... top of the line gear straight from secret imperial research facilities is the class' strenght and the equipment can look like that.

 

This used look is what I really approve of and I can actually see it in the game.

 

What I'm really missing is that skins like "Rampart Rampage-X Blaster" and other blues arn't craftable or "TT-16B Master Powertech Helmet" and others can't be fitted with Augments and are thus inerior.

I also really disapprove that only people who have Campaign set items can look pretty without gimping themselves ... who came up with that idea? O.o

[Radox]

Yep good post. I agree and also is the reason why I pretty much have stopped playing my battlemaster sorc now.

 

I look ahead at the next level of gear for me, and see yet more tripe.

 

There is no incentive to gear up to look like a circus clown.

 

Out of all the classes the sorceror has by far the craziest (read: worst) gear design.

[Keadil]

Have you seen any of the outfits Amidala wore??

 

Amidala only wore that when she was not associated with combat at any point. She dressed very casual as Padme.

[Cerion]

Good post. I too wonder at the bizarre design choices the artists have made.

 

Here's my theory: Levels 1-49 looks pretty good because, by and large, it is taken right from the films--films that actually employed costume designers.

 

The new gear has been created from scratch, by graphic artists...not costume designers. That is the only way this disconnect makes sense to me.

[Kneelocked]

 

They talk about how they want to let players be able to freely choose what appearance they want in-game. Yet the new crafting system still forces people to jump through RNG hoops just to find schematics, and hope for crits to get augments........ It also gets really expensive for a casual player to pull said mods out.

 

Is getting what you want to look, possible? Yes. Will it be practical? For most people, no since they can't get augmented slots so there will always be an issue of Min/Max, an issue that they really shouldn't have introduced by making things so convoluted. It's going to cost a lot of money, time, and effort.

 

So is it straight forward and easy to look like how you want in SWTOR? No, a resounding no.

I'm not sure why they made something as basic as appearance customization be so grindy and convoluted, especially considering one of their initial goals was supposedly to take the grind out and make things easily accessible.

 

A lot of great stuff in this thread, but this quote is How I feel. My cargo hold is filled with orange armor sets I liked in the hopes that one day they will truly allow me to look how I want . With the things I like about the game becoming stale as time goes on, they would be advised to fix these middling things that annoy.

[TitusVorenus]

Thank you all for your responses. I feel like this discussion is really quite important--for many of us, a big part of the fun in playing a Star Wars game is "dressing the part"--and I certainly hope we can continue to keep Bioware aware of our concerns and thoughts.

 

Some of you have mentioned, in various ways, that the more ostentatious styling of these armor sets is able to fit into the IP because "the universe is so varied" or "well they have to make something different". I don't disagree that it is a big universe and that variety is always a good thing. My argument is that there is a logical inconsistency with many of these designs as compared to the larger whole. It's like a guy walking around in full samurai armor in the middle of medieval London, or someone running around in full Corinthian hoplite panoply in the trenches of the Somme.

 

Consider, for example, that even the more "outrageous" designs in Star Wars are really quite understated. Darth Vader is probably the best example. His helmet is obviously unique and stands out, but it is basically not much more than a skull motif in a simple, menacing black--and it's one of the most iconic images of the entire franchise. The rest of Darth Vader--the black cape, the black padded armor pieces--also manages to be intimidating without being ludicrous.

 

In that vein of thought, bringing up Queen Amidala is no justification. Amidala is the queen of an insignificant, almost pathologically peaceful society, and the grand dresses she is prone to wearing are worn while she is acting as such--that is, sitting in her palace and doing other diplomatic things which require more je ne sais quoi and less utility. She is not running around a battlefield fighting Jedi knights or Imperial troopers. In fact, when you do see Padme--or at least her double--in her "royal combat outfit", it is obviously far more functionally designed. Furthermore, they obviously wanted the double to stand out so Gunray and his cronies would fall for the ruse--allowing Padme and her handmaidens, in very simple burgundy tunics, to seize them.

[Bafucin]

At lvl 50 you leave SWTOR and enter a World of Warcraft.

[ShavedEwok]

I guess I haven't seen any armors yet that made me think, "No way. There is no way that is part of Star Wars." I mean, every new movie of the prequels that came out, we saw something crazier than the last. Amidala's stuff I never in a million years would have attributed to Star Wars before it showed up in the movie.

 

So how do we determine what does and doesn't fit in with Star Wars' asthetic? And must we (or should we) limit ourselves to only those asthetics which showed up in the movies (or comics?) when large portions of the universe were never illustrated therein?

 

First, as just pointed out Amidalas outfit is perhaps not the best example given that it's not something you would wear in combat. In the context of her being a queen within that culture, it makes sense. However, had you seen her leap into combat with that headgear and dress, then I'm pretty sure most of use would have gone "No way." And, as a sidenote to this: Amidala was shown in the Prequels, which many of still struggle to accept as being part of the universe...and some purists even go as far as only fully recognizing the Original Trilogy films as "proper" Star Wars.

 

Second, it's not so much about determining anything as it is keeping true to what is already there. Design is not some completely abstract notion based on nothing but a "feeling" -- it has rules, guidelines and can be relatively clearly defined. With an old and well-established IP as Star Wars, even more so.

 

Also, the esthetic of Star Wars is an intricate part of the IP, so yes, in that regard I would consider there to be a limit on just how far you can go. However, this should be a non-issue, as several concepts in TOR have been new designs still looking like they fit within the Star Wars universe. The easiest way to do is is to go back to the roots and draw inspiration from the OT films, which BioWare has clearly done when it comes to the designs of the classes, ships and so on. IMO this is not only very smart, but effective and they did a great job at that.

 

As for the "non-illustrated" parts of the SW universe, the Original Trilogy depicted many species and cultures from various planets, yet they all seemed to fit within that same universe. Again, you can come up with new designs while still making them consistent with what's already established.

 

Finally, yes there's the EU and there's all kinds of weird stuff in there. However, the day you use poor EU designs as an excuse for making equally poor or worse ones in TOR, that's when you're going down that slippery slope...and with a big, well-known and loved IP as Star Wars, that's probably something best avoided.

 

SE

Edited April 23, 2012 by ShavedEwok

[TitusVorenus]

First, as just pointed out Amidalas outfit is perhaps not the best example given that it's not something you would wear in combat. In the context of her being a queen within that culture, it makes sense. However, had you seen her leap into combat with that headgear and dress, then I'm pretty sure most of use would have gone "No way."

 

...

 

Second, it's not so much about determining anything as it is keeping true to what is already there. Design is not some completely abstract notion based on nothing but a "feeling" -- it has rules, guidelines and can be relatively clearly defined. With an old and well-established IP as Star Wars, even more so.

 

 

Yes, precisely. Star Wars has a very particular aesthetic--George Lucas always called himself a "visual filmmaker", and he's precisely right--and it is that aesthetic that makes Star Wars what it is; otherwise, it would just be another science fiction story, and things in it would not hold such strong emotional attachments or be remembered so vividly. The issue is not, "Do I think X is ugly?", because one person's trash is another man's treasure. The issue instead is, "Could I see X in a Star Wars movie?"--and the answer with many of these endgame sets is unequivocally not.

 

Incidentally, I recently spent an incredible amount of credits to swap the mods from my battlemaster gear (which I might have actually liked if not for the unnecessarily giant shoulder) into armor which makes me look almost exactly like the troopers seen at the Jedi Temple in the first cinematic trailer. I lost a lot of credits, and I lost my set bonus (alas, it is not linked to the armoring for BM gear, unlike what I had been told)--but I am honestly enjoying running around with my Vanguard so much more, because I feel much more connected to the game's universe. And that's what important: connecting and relating to the game's universe; otherwise, it's just another video game.

[ZORG]

I totally Agree. Here is a link to my Livedrive This sith looks like some japanese shogun robot. He looks nothing like Darth Maul or Lord Sidious or Count DooKu..

 

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=8c275469618e27ae&resid=8C275469618E27AE!1562&parid=8C275469618E27AE!1561

Edited April 24, 2012 by ZORG

[Efour]

Long time MMO player - Noob poster.... Still in my Free SWTOR month.

 

I started playing this with a few Friends and after a week we got chatting if we were going to keep playing.

 

Within the first 20 seconds we all agreed the ONLY reason that made the game good was that was "Its Star Wars"

The minute you lose the feel and look of that i personally think all you are left with is a second rate mmo on par with RIFT.

 

Like someone else said now you are brining out "original" ideas imo you are failing fast. Hire a couple of artists that LOVE Star Wars. Keep it sleek and simple. I laughed when i saw this new armour. I actually laughed. Out of the 40 odd people in the swtor guild not 1 said they liked it...

 

Think about it.

[Goretzu]

Unfortunately a lot of the later armour seems to have been to the WoW school of "stick a big shiney gold pointy thing on it and call it epic".

 

Strangely most of the lower level stuff actually looks more Star Warsy and less WoW end gameish.

[Tiek]

i like alot of the lower level gear too. much better than the sets.

 

some of the black hole gear.. i kinda feel like bioware should pay me to take the mods out and not vice versa.. after all, im making their game look better.

[Goretzu]

i like alot of the lower level gear too. much better than the sets.

 

some of the black hole gear.. i kinda feel like bioware should pay me to take the mods out and not vice versa.. after all, im making their game look better.

 

 

The orange gear with critted augment slots is a bit step forward, and if they manage to go ahead with the ability to add augments slots to any orange gear it will be a HUGE step forward.

 

Because it can, at the moment, feel rather like you say.

[Calitri]

If they just designed the gear to look like the ones the vendors that sell you the gear are wearing, I think it would all be just fine. Unfortunatley for example the sentinel recruit/champ gear looks like someone pulled out an iron man picture without the helmet and called it a day.

[JediNg]

Almost all of them are ostentatious

 

You're damn right they are. I just take the components out and put them into my Jedi Initiate's vestments.

[Ignobull]

When I heard 1.2 was coming out and Bio was going to let us look like we wanted I got excited. I dropped cybertech and took up synthweaving, I collected every pattern I could over two weeks of constantly logging in to check the gtn. I bought greens/blues in hopes of learning those patterns, I farmed credits to buy [prototype] items in hopes of using that gear, I ran heroic quests on low level planets collecting gear, I farmed low level dungeons. All this effort came to a smile and a shake of my head when I logged on for 1.2

 

All I want is a pair of black leather boots, some black pants, and a black hooded tunic (without neon lights on it) for my sith inquisitor.

 

Please just tone everything down, simple is beutiful

[Tigalo]

My assassin had the perfect look from his teens until he dinged 50, a sleep black hooded robe. but suddenly, upon reaching 50 he turned into a fluffy chicken... Yuck! I suddenly understood why my brother had been playing with hide head slot, and without his chest armor for months.

 

My BH started off on the weak side, that is, the look was perfect for a fresh BH, he looked like a rookie BH. As he progressed his armor developed and he became sturdier and sturdier and in his 40s he really looked how I picture a BH should look like. But, upon reaching 50 he suddenly turned into a hillbilly predator/insect hybrid.

 

pre 50 armor feels very Star Wars, but the end game armors feel more like WoW. If I wanted to play WoW I would play WoW, but I dont, I want to play Star Wars, so please let my characters look like they belong in a galaxy far far away and not in Azeroth.

[Sendai_S]

This is a hot topic among me and a few members of my guild. I've finally removed all teh mods from my Sorceror's chest piece and stuck them in a low level hooded top that looks much better. I still retain my Columni/Rakata set bonuses since I'm still wearing the other four parts of the set. Bonus: the STUPIDLY RIDICULOUS shoulder pointies and behind the butt pointies are GONE! I'm basically "ok" for now.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that what I'm wearing at 50 now breaks my immersion completely.

 

During each weeks downtime I spend that time (unless I'm working on a gig) sketching out the ideas I have for the characters. Truthfully, I come from the KISS school of design. I'm a profession comic book artist and an avid Star Wars fan.

 

KISS IS:

Keep. It. Simple. Stupid.

 

Clearly the designers at Bioware do not. Nor are they fans of Star Wars at all. This is clearly truth. The lived in universe of Star Wars is always lived in. 3000 years from the timeline we are currently in it's just as lived in. I don't see why this has to be shiny and glorious and why clothing designers in the time think that a Jedi should wear and old west spittoon (that's what it looks like to me) on his head, or for no apparent reason put what amounts to duckbills on the shoulders and gloves of consular armor.

 

Yes, I said duckbills. Quack quack.

 

Consulars and Jedi's and Sith should all have relatively the same appearance. Other models of armor - particularly the ones that look like robot parts should only be used if one has a desire to use them. We should be given choices and options and not have these flamboyant - for lack of a better term - Lady Gaga designs foisted upon us.

 

One of my first designs was for a better style of consular gear. The headslot would be used for a cloak, and be given the option to have the hood up or down out of the box. No head armor necessary - there's already so much bad stuff and luckily we can all hide our hide slot (our poor companions can't though /sigh).

 

JEDI CONSULAR DESIGN by Sendai Sa'teph / Sentai Imogen of the Harbinger server.

 

I find that on many of my characters - I'm always on my own quest. With Consulars at first - it's always "The Quest for Pants" which thankfully is solved by running social points to level 2 and going to Balmorra or doing space missions and getting the first tier of pilot pants - combine that with match color to chest piece and we're fairly well off. But this is always due to the design features of that end game armor. Like all other authors in this thread I find myself attracted to the armor that we get leveling up and not any of the end game armor which always feels overly complicated. Star Wars is a practical universe. It's not Warcraft in space.

 

I really truly believe that Bioware shouldn't wait to get simple designs out there. And I also believe that they need to modify their database tables on the mods in the current Columni/Rakata/Tionese so that we can transfer the mods and set bonuses out of them. The false advertising that they would let us do that in 1.2 was highly misleading. I wasted 240000 credits to find out it didn't work. Then they tell us that "Oh, that's only for the NEW armor."

 

Lame Bioware. Lame.

 

Step it up.

[PendragonPrime]

TClearly the designers at Bioware do not. Nor are they fans of Star Wars at all. This is clearly truth. The lived in universe of Star Wars is always lived in. 3000 years from the timeline we are currently in it's just as lived in. I don't see why this has to be shiny and glorious.

 

George Lucas made 3 prequel movies to the original trilogy. You should check it out sometime.

[Selvec]

I would agree, except the prequels kinda also missed the mark in terms of Star Wars design Aesthetic, as did KOTOR. Those are very much the movies that SW:TOR takes its designs from.

 

That said, the armor in 1.2 on any design level, is just plain horrible. It over the top, its full of drama, it has more in touch with a fantasy genre then sci-fi. Its simply the wrong type of armor. I think the designers may have been pulling a bit to much from other MMO's, rather then the movies and extended universe content. Thats where I think this has gone wrong. Other then Star Trek: Online, there are very few other MMO's to draw inspiration from in terms of space design. EVE Online doesn't let you see your avatar sadly, otherwise that would help. So all thats left is Warhammer: Online, and a host of other fantasy based games.

 

A bit of serious advice for any of the design team who happens to read this feedback. Please take a serious look at the extended universe comics, please read the books. Watch the original trilogy, and ignore the Krath brotherhood.

 

Thats my advice. I hope it helps.

[Sendai_S]

George Lucas made 3 prequel movies to the original trilogy. You should check it out sometime.

 

I have. And they're ok - best part about them is the action and the acrobatics of the lead martial artists. Jedi and Sith do in fact look like Jedi and Sith and most of the classes that appear in the new (lesser tho than the original) trilogy are still faithful to the traditional SW aesthetic. The new trilogy is still far better in design then the armor designs in this game. All the austentatious stuff was left to the politicians and queens.

 

They can have it.

 

I'm a Jedi damnit.