AlyxDinas Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 This confuses me even more, because one of the big reasons people hate end game gear is because it's basically nothing like what you would expect from Star Wars at all. It doesn't look like they borrowed a thing from the established Star Wars aesthetic, but drew all of their ideas from other places entirely. Except this is not so. I can point, in a majority of examples of in game armor, to certain visually evocative features or direct canonical analogues. The notion of something not being "Star Warsy" enough is one which is generally based upon a fairly limited and fundamentally insular understanding of the intellectual property and it's content. All of this notwithstanding that the content of a sweeping space opera can have a vast diversity of aesthetic designs within in it due to the scale of the setting alone. Particularly one which derives so many of its sensibilities from mid century sci fi shlock/pulp/serials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenhurst Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Very nice post, and I agree with it. Also I think the imagination how fashion and designs look, 3000 years before the original trilogy are quite wrong in many places. Why? 1. Most designs looks oddly familiar like they would be out of the movie time era 2. Many designs are just way off the original designs, but in a wrong way, too futuristic, some do not make sense in terms of usability (e.g. consular armor), some are just like out of a different IP. It's a mash up without consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmybob Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 That's not always the case. There are plenty of examples in actual SW cannon where Jedi characters are wearing something other than a simple brown robe. Just because all you know is from the movies doesn't mean that they can't wear something else. Besides, this game doesn't take place in the same time frame as the movies, so a little leeway is justified. Honestly, I think most of the people who are complaining that the armors don't fit SW lore don't really know much about SW lore outside of the movies. If people actually look at the cannon of the entire SW universe they will find armor sets just as outlandish or different from what you are used to seeing in just the movies. Basically people are taking a very narrow minded view of what Star Wars is. Take off the original trilogy blinders and you'll find there is a precedent for the end game armor sets. I've read and seen everything EU.... And I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainInsano Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 It's pretty clear the designers are drawing from the EU comic books for their inspiration. This explains the over the top fantasy-like armor sets which look nothing like the movies. I would be okay with that down the road after the safe designs got stale, but it is kind of strange to me why they decided to reach right for the out-there material. It seems like most people either actively dislike or barely tolerate the outlandish armor designs of most classes. Seems like it would have been better to play it safe for the first few tiers with designs most Star Wars fans are familiar with then move on from there once the well ran dry. I don't really see where they can go from here to be honest...back to simple robes and capes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seravie Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Yep, elite commandos never wore bright colors. But really I think the designers thought that 1-49 gear should be more towards the everyday foot soldier, or jedi, while at 50 it's more like, the flashy armor kings and samurai warlords would have. (PS my trooper armor is pretty grimey for lvl 50 gear showing a used future as you put it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naeiana Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Very nice post, and I totally agree with it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancientwolfgr Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Very to the mark post from the OP. Question now is, will SWToR Development LISTEN? This isnt a minor issue, its paramount to the long term appeal of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolops Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Except this is not so. I can point, in a majority of examples of in game armor, to certain visually evocative features or direct canonical analogues. The notion of something not being "Star Warsy" enough is one which is generally based upon a fairly limited and fundamentally insular understanding of the intellectual property and it's content. All of this notwithstanding that the content of a sweeping space opera can have a vast diversity of aesthetic designs within in it due to the scale of the setting alone. Particularly one which derives so many of its sensibilities from mid century sci fi shlock/pulp/serials. There are plenty of examples of in-game armor, but not of end-game armor, which is what this discussion is all about. I've seen a great deal of Star Wars intellectual property and I've never seen anything which would support the design for the 1.2 consular PvE or PvP armor, or all of the gigantic shoulder pieces or the helmets from the Jedi Knight stuff, for example. Some of the new end-game stuff is closer, but most of it is simply not. The pre-1.2 stuff isn't really all that much better, either. The Jedi look like homeless people or cavemen, and the Smugglers look like some kind of old western magicians. I'm sorry, but you're not going to find anything in the canon - standard or EU - to support this stuff, at least not more than an isolated example or two which reflects a particular plot or character rather than a generalizable norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akdonkey Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 I am afraid that this gear was to entice the fantasy genre players, maybe someone needs to go back and watch starwars. I believe this statement somes it up. I'm sure there are some that love this look. Hey I say leave for those players and and more styles for those that don't like it. When SWG added the Appearance tab my Bounty Hunter wore Mandalorian armor while the rest of my characters appeared in street clothes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhaegrant Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Ultimately Bioware have to develop a wide variety of looks to appeal to a wide variety of players. Many, but obviously not all, players will want a little bit of end game bling to make their character stand out. To be unique. Unfortunately when you start dealing with gear aquisition and tiers of armour this uniqueness gets eroded as all Sith Marauders in Tier 2 will look the same. While the OP has a valid claim that they do not like the aesthetic of end game armor sets it was only really a valid claim pre-1.2. Now you can put on most of the orange gear, plug in the mods you want and be no worse off. The developers have also mentioned on numerous occasions that soon the armour types of social armours will cover all three types, when this finally rolls out there will be no restriction on what you choose to look like. With these customisation options already in place and on the way I can't help but feel that the OP boils down to a 'I don't like unrealistic bling on my character so no one else should either.'. The Star Wars universe is supposed to be vast with influences from a myriad of alien cultures. If you want to be a traditional Jedi and wear brown robes you have that option. If you want to look like you've just walked out of a sale on BDSM clothing the option is also there. Did you spot the key word in that? Option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipce Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 A well written post, OP - you pretty much nail it all and with the words of Lucas himself. BioWare have failed but I know they have the means to correct it. I hope they pay attention to all the posts about this topic that are flooding the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolops Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Ultimately Bioware have to develop a wide variety of looks to appeal to a wide variety of players. Many, but obviously not all, players will want a little bit of end game bling to make their character stand out. To be unique. Unfortunately when you start dealing with gear aquisition and tiers of armour this uniqueness gets eroded as all Sith Marauders in Tier 2 will look the same. While the OP has a valid claim that they do not like the aesthetic of end game armor sets it was only really a valid claim pre-1.2. Now you can put on most of the orange gear, plug in the mods you want and be no worse off. The developers have also mentioned on numerous occasions that soon the armour types of social armours will cover all three types, when this finally rolls out there will be no restriction on what you choose to look like. With these customisation options already in place and on the way I can't help but feel that the OP boils down to a 'I don't like unrealistic bling on my character so no one else should either.'. The Star Wars universe is supposed to be vast with influences from a myriad of alien cultures. If you want to be a traditional Jedi and wear brown robes you have that option. If you want to look like you've just walked out of a sale on BDSM clothing the option is also there. Did you spot the key word in that? Option. This is correct in part, but not entirely. First, while you do have the option to put end-game mods in customizable gear, it's tremendously expensive, severely limiting that option for many players. While I may be able to afford it, many will be waiting a considerable amount of time to be able to do so. Second, the best gear in the game right now is actually augmented customizable armorning, but unfortunately the selection of this is relatively limited. There are not nearly as many options as there are for either regular green/blue/purple gear or for the customizable (orange) items which drop from mobs and as quest rewards. The framework is there to eliminate this problem, but it requires some more work on BW part to make it a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptonius Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 I definitely agree with the OP. Some of the outfits look like they ported the style directly from fantasy type games like WoW, and others look like a guy saw something cool at Party City for Halloween. It wouldn't be such an issue if we could extract all the bonuses from the sets ( 2/4 piece bonus) and use them in oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banicks Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 TL:DR In a nutshell though, the armour is ridiculously ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rikeryo Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 I support this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muldaak Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Did the 1-49 designers get kidnapped or something? EA let them go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSnipe Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 +1 to this whole thread really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeelFlow Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) Hello, What a fantastic OP and I really agree with it. Bioware have the core of a great game on their hands but they have made a few worrying/baffling decisions - launching without a LFG, a world design that's a bit 'corridor-y', no macros and of course, the gear issue that the OP so eloquently posted about. Plus name your 'must have' feature of choice!!! BW when they were talking about the game, pre-launch said that it was an attempt to allow players to live their SW fantasy i.e. they could be a bounty hunter, a smuggler, a jedi etc. etc. All well and good - and the storyline for these classes is fantastic and really evocative of the character archetypes in the movies that we all know and love. However, as the OP put so well, most players expect these archetypes to look a certain way - that is to say, 'Star Warsy' i.e. futuristic, 'weathered' (mostly) and very importantly, based on the iconic look of the character archetypes that these classes are based on. It's really worrying when the designers seem to be applying the OTT look of something like WoW to TOR - it simply isn't working doesn't feel right. I don't know how or why Lucas Arts signed off these designs or what BW was thinking. Suffice to say, I'm expecting throughout the game to outfit my characters from 1-50 & endgame something like this: Jedi Knight An understated look. The iconic brown robes with subtle armour underneath it. I don't want my Jedi Guardian to look like a Trooper. The armour should almost be unnoticeable & hidden by a robe. Same for sentinels. The Jedi are meant to act through their actions and words - not try to impress people with OTT armour. Jedi Consular Again, I should be able to see this class dressed in simple robes i.e. like Ben Kenobi - not looking like a member of the Galactic Senate. The Jedi are meant to be monks... simple cloth, leather and robes, please Trooper Again, variations on the troopers that we see in the movies. Battle damaged armour, too. It's a war and the Troopers have to make do with what they have. Ideally the trooper receives different equipment sets for different environments as they get assigned to different planets and can update them - this is a soldier who prizes their trusty (hopefully) equipment, maintains it and patches it up. Smuggler The iconic Han Solo look and variations. Flight jackets etc. A little bit flamboyant, but not too much. And please ditch the cowboy look for gunslingers. And capes? Nooo....! Bounty Hunter Again, I want to have the Boba Fett look - or the look displayed by the Bounty Hunters on Darth Vader's Star destroyer in Empire. These people have battle damaged, modded equipment, custom made - or stolen - to their needs. The bounty hunter's armour is almost part of their personality. Imagine if in ROTJ if Boba Fett turned up with a new look. Boba Fett's armour is iconic and an important part of the character. Sith Warrior Simple. Variations of the Darth Vader look for the Juggernaut, with lighter armour for the Marauder. The Sith should be able to terrify people just by their presence - not by looking like strange mechanical monsters. Though I'll admit for this class you could push the envelope a little. And I mean 'a little'! Sith Inquisitor Again, simple. The Darth Maul/Kendo look for Assassins and variations on the Palpatine look for Sorcerers. Again, the SI should terrify through their presence and actions. The Emperor in ROTJ was a terrifying figure although he was dressed in a simple grey robe. Why in this game do SI's look like they are Warlocks escaped from WoW? Agents OK, there isn't really an archetype for the agent in the original movie. But I'd have thought that an imperial agent using cover and sniping people would want to look as unobtrusive as possible! OK, having said all of this - if BW still feel that a certain amount of their player base are gear focussed and want the latest and greatest. Well OK. Just please could they ground it in the looks seen in the movies, a little more. But for those of us who want to have the 'quintessential' looks - please provide the ability to retain a certain 'look' i.e. have a character that looks like Obi-Wan, The Emperor, Boba Fett etc. etc. fairly early on in the game and to keep that look to end-game. It would be nice to get variations and end-game but subtle updates of these looks. Not the OTT craziness that we see in the game at the moment. I hope that BW are listening - fingers crossed... Edited April 22, 2012 by FeelFlow spelling & grammar mistakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShavedEwok Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) The Star Wars universe is supposed to be vast with influences from a myriad of alien cultures. If you want to be a traditional Jedi and wear brown robes you have that option. If you want to look like you've just walked out of a sale on BDSM clothing the option is also there. Did you spot the key word in that? Option. I'm pretty sure no one is against having options, the issue as I see it is what those options currently entail. The point many seem to make is that they'd like to have the option to look plain or more "bling bling" if they want to. Problem is, the "bling bling" currently available does not fit the IP. As many have already explained, the plain robes look is cool and should be possible to obtain by modding orange gear. However, when it comes to end-game gear, look at how some of the high level NPC's look...check out the designs used in the TOR CGI trailers etc...there's so much already available material to pull and expand upon. This is Star Wars, and any options available should fit within that IP. The original movies all portrayed aliens, planets and different cultures, yet it was recognizable as Star Wars. Many of the 1.2 designs would fit perfectly in a Cthulu environment so that option would make sense in a Cthulu game, but not one set in the Star Wars universe. As for the possible comic book influence; anyone who is familiar with the EU can probably agree that a lot of the designs and concepts are not exactly tasteful or even good, sad but true. So using "it's in the EU" is not always a valid argument...at least not when it comes to designs. SE Edited April 22, 2012 by ShavedEwok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlyxDinas Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) There are plenty of examples of in-game armor, but not of end-game armor, which is what this discussion is all about. Again, you are incorrect. For instance, the new Assassin/Sorcer PvP model draws clear inspiration from Darth Bane's orbalisk armor. And for all you say about only finding isolated examples, I can continue to list visual complements for other gearsets as well if you really wish. Whether or not this makes the armor design palatable is another matter alltogether but it goes a great length to answering the question of whether or not they fit into the Star Wars universe. Simply put, of course they do. The Star Wars universe, by and large (and chiefly due to the type of material is was inspired from to begin with), is pretty stupid. I again invoke my previous point. As we move further along in time, the degree of visual styles increases in a directly proportional manner. Such that the current styles that people might not enjoy become one of a diverse pool. Edited April 22, 2012 by AlyxDinas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir-Coffee Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Can we sticky this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricktur Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 EVERYONE AGREES /THREAD seriously, this is magnificent and idk why bioware didnt realize/acknowledge this when designing the game. I understand making characters feel "uber" but thats just not what star wars is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PendragonPrime Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 However, regardless of whether you prefer plain brown robes or more intricate Amiprada stuff, they still have the following in common: Their designs fit within the Star Wars universe. I guess I haven't seen any armors yet that made me think, "No way. There is no way that is part of Star Wars." I mean, every new movie of the prequels that came out, we saw something crazier than the last. Amidala's stuff I never in a million years would have attributed to Star Wars before it showed up in the movie. So how do we determine what does and doesn't fit in with Star Wars' asthetic? And must we (or should we) limit ourselves to only those asthetics which showed up in the movies (or comics?) when large portions of the universe were never illustrated therein? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thornka Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't one of the level 50 gear for IA....Ninja Suits? Thats just...wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir-Coffee Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't one of the level 50 gear for IA....Ninja Suits? Thats just...wow. I lol'd at the BH design. The Sith Warrior one is terrible though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts